Is it worth $20,000? - Westley Richards African Express Rifle
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2017
- Taking a look at a very fine Westley Richards rifle in .318 accelerated action express. This one also happens to be made for the Earl of Egmont in 1938.
Other rifles that are of similar or greater quality would be the Holland & hollands, cogswell & harrisons, rigby's and many others. - Sport
Love that dry joke about the Starling problem...
Wonderful acquisition, congratulations. And yes, they are worth 20K. They are timeless pieces of art and reliable working tools at the same time.
Such a lovely rifle. The 98 Mauser action, complete with stripper clip guide and thumbslot in the receiver, is a close cousin to my Husqvarna 9.3x62. If I squint just enough...Very much enjoy your channel.
Really someone that knows about fine rifles doesn t need to be told why certain ones cost more. British rifles have been top drawer always and that goes for shotguns as well.
Just the walnut grade is tops. Very beautiful rifle and as he said hand fitted. Westley Richards , I can only wish. I totally agree. I look at a fine gun like a art collector looks at a Monet. I am getting goosebumps looking at it. Thumbs up.
Thanks Samuel - you're right about British rifles and shotguns.
Many thanks sir. This channel allows me to see firearms I have only read about.
Wow, that W-R is beautiful! It’s a working rifle as you said, nota museum piece.
The British stalking and DG rifles made at the beginning of the 20the C. represent the pinnacle of hunting rifle fabrication and design, IMO. The W R is stunning.
I agree Harold - remarkable rifles - the doubles are time machines as well; taking us back to what some would say were far better times.
I don't have much love for starlings either.
I picked up (literally) a WR at the SCI convention several years ago and, whether by chance or not, it just fit me perfectly. They feel different.......and wonderful.
That’s a fine rifle, I live not too far from Birmingham and have had a tour of the Westley Richard’s workshops. I have a .318 cartridge case in my collection. 🇬🇧
Love the rifles that you share on CZcams. The sporting rifles you covered are so overlooked by today's shooters. Gorgeous rifle!
Thank you! I'll keep going.
That WR is a work of art! I’ve watched some videos on their shop along with H&H et alia. Worth every penny.
Absolutely beautiful wood on that rifle and the checkering is outstanding. The lines per inch is phenomenal.
Absolutely beautiful rifle. If some people don't "get it" that's their problem. Enjoy!
Good words David - I like that rifle and the Earl was a very interesting man and hunter.
WELL DONE, Sir, many thanks for posting! I do envy your rifle and admire your taste in rifles.
Price is what the nxt one's willing to pay.
It's a gem. The take-down, wood, finish etc is makes it worth it. A gun for generations in the family
You're a scarce person! I see the value too.
Very well said , we have one in my family for three generations now .
Your screwdriver is entirely appropriate for the rifle. Nothing beats old-world brass and British understatement. Love these videos.
Not screwdriver mate..gunsmiths use turnscrews😊
Excellent! Thanks for sharing this masterpiece with us!
It is my privilege. Thank you!
*Thank you for presenting this interesting old rifle and cartridge-caliber. Being somewhat inspired by this presentation... I looked it up and re-searched what that was, or is. 318 Westley Richards uses a 318 Bore cut to an interesting and rather unique diameter of .330" in the grooves . Therefore, the 318 is meant for use with .330" projectiles weighing about 250 grains. Later, the Americans somehow got the same idea and made another very similar cartridge. At a glance, with both cartridges in one hand, one might not see the minor dimensional differences. .330" or .338" projectiles and slight differences in shoulder placement and angles. One might not see that with naked eyes. With tools, we can measure those differences. Therefore, 338-06 A-Square is extremely similar to 318 Westley Richards. Again, the bore of 338-06 as measured in the American way at the wider part of the grooves is actually using .338" projectiles. Extremely similar. The 318 which might have been called a 330-06, if it were American, was and is an interesting cartridge. We can achieve the same ballistic performance or maybe ever-so-slightly better... with the practical 338-06 A-Square... Or, enjoy the earlier 318 Westley Richards with British nostalgia and the Moose will never know the difference between '318' @ .330" or 338 @ .338". For Bull Moose, his travels to the freezer or smoke house will look the same. Again, thank you for inspiring me to look that up and give the information a good read.*
simple hand made rifle with great action. Put together to use.
Excellent review - am enjoying your channel very much.
Thank you Luke!
Just gorgeous WRS. I'll take that over any new ones. I jus love real quality of the old gun arts.
SUPER VIDEOS THANK YOU FOR SHARING THESE TREASURE!!!!!
$20,000 for a handmade rifle that I'd bet was measured for the Earl...
It's worth every penny paid for someone who enjoys it as it was intended, being hunted with in the field!
The thing that I liked about this particular rifle was the obvious amount of field time it showed, especially the magazine plate. I was also glad to hear you say that you enjoyed shooting it, I'd be far happier with that rifle than a matching one that was mint... Of course finding the ammo might take a bit of effort, however, I believe Kynoch still makes it.
A few years sgo, I read an article written in the late 40's where the interviewer asked Walter Bell if he were to return to Africa for another elephant hunt, what rifle and caliber he'd choose. Bell's response was a Winchester Model 70 chambered in 318 Richards. That reply ends the discussion for me!
That is a beautiful rifle you have there, enjoy shooting it. Cheers!
Another fine video and fine rifle my friend. Usually overlooked, everything on this rifle is 100% British except the action. The actions were purchased from Mauser in Germany and worked over and as you say, hand fitted. But this all ceased to be once England declared war on Germany in 1939. What was left in English stock for firms like W. Richards, Parker Hale and Rigby were it for quite some time. I'm not sure what role, if any, these companies had in the war effort. I do know that Parker Hale built up some very nice Enfield sniper rifles, but could not say for certain what the others did. I would think there was some sort of contribution to the war effort either by government contract or on a voluntary basis. But I do have a question, as a Smith I am familiar with these rifles and their history. But by no means am I an expert. But I will reference my library or do research if the need arises. As stated the actions were purchased from Mauser. Where did the barells come from? Did Mauser provide barelled actions? And if so who rifled them and cut the chambers. With the vast array of Westly Richards chamberings alone it seems that this might be something that they would do themselves, to their own specifications and using their own chambering reamers and method of cutting the rifling. Which brings me to my next question. Do you happen to know how the rifling was cut? Was it button rifled, hammer forged, broached or some other method? And did they use a standard pattern of lands and grooves as the English had used many different types of rifling. This also has me wondering about your statement on the rifle seeing extensive use, but the bore being in excellent condition. Would they have chrome lined the bore? There was still quite a bit of European ammo that was still useing corrosive primers during this period. It might account for the condition of the bore now. I hope you have some insight into these questions. Thanks, and be safe and healthy.
Did you know, that the .318
Accelerated Nitro Express cartridge from Westley Richards, ( Loaded by Kynoch), IT'S the English version of the (earlier) 7,9x57J (.318") Mauser??
NOT to be mistaken with the later 7,92x57JS,
( S bore .323" ) Mauser.??
I know, 'cause I got one.!!!
I was lucky to find a Westley-Richard’s single shot with a Martini action. It’s the only English rifle I own, but it’s awesome to have in the collection.
Nice rifle
Thanks for showing 👍
You're most welcome Muhammad
A most interesting, informative and entertaining segment. What a fine rifle with a fine pedigree and provenance. By way of historical background, 11th Earl of Egmont, Frederick George Moore [Perceval] was born 14 April 1914 and died 8 December 2001. Married Ann Moodie of Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Succeeded by his son, Hon. Thomas Perceval 12th Earl of Egmont; died 6 Nov 2011, whereupon the Earldom of Egmont (Peerage in Ireland) became extinct.
You may want to check the front sight, because it is turn of the century if it glows in the dark they use to use Radium which is radio active, and they painted clocks and front sights with this element as a paint. Just a suggestion.
Great Thomas! Will do! Thank you : )
it has value because it is rare . And if someone made this today. With what someone needs to earn to make a living. Places a rifle like this into the monetary realm of a premium product. I love what you show here on CZcams. Just Subscribed !!!!
What an enjoyable channel ! It's not unlike watching a classic black and white film noir movie. I may not go there, be that, or do that but what an enjoyable experience.
Thanks.
That's a memorable description. Thanks Rick.
50 BMG fir your starling problem? what are you going to do, shoot the tree down they're nesting in?
Hahahahaha....I had not thought of that. : ) I may not get a starling using that method but I'll get a tree : )
Very interesting rifle, thanks for showing us round.....
Thank you Gus!
That is a wonderful rifle made buy craftsman with such attention to details. Wish I could find one that I could afford but that’s not likely to happen thanks for showing us that great old rifle if only it could talk but just looking at it maybe with a little it does.
I really love the English stock shape. Beautiful.
The best!
Great video. Thank you.
No comparison between that Westley Richard and that Winchester M-70 XTR. While that Winchester is a good rifle the front sight on that Richard's would cost way more to make and then fit and regulate the sights. Made to be shot and hunted with and well It had to be very reliable because it would take what two or three years to have it sent back and returned for a repair! Longer I would think in the pre war era. I have lusted for a Rigby .275 HV model with all the bells and whistles, I just never had the spare cash for one, sure they can build me one today and it will be as fine as anything made, I will also have to write a check for it that would be about as much as a Ford F250 Powerstroke 4x4 pickup truck. those are around 90K now. Just goes to show how devalued our money has gotten over the last 120 years be it the British Pound or the US dollar. There is a Rifle Maker in Utah that gets north of 20K for one of his and he sells every single one he makes same for a fellow in AZ too. It's the skilled attention to detail work and the things you can see, besides London is an expensive place to have a business. There was a fellow that made Fly Tying vises, he retired and stopped making them, when one comes up for sale from time to time they get snapped up in a hurry and the last one when for more than 4K.
Fly tying is an odd business. Shady doings supposedly for some of the rarer feathers I've heard
Great videos, would like to see more of your collection. Do you have more historical rifles based on the pre-war mauser system? I love the system and own a few myself.
Greetings from Germany.
Guten abend. I used to have a few Mauser sporters but sold most of them - which was unwise but seemed right at the time. I liked the Model B - but did not want to drill it for scope bases - so it went to another collector.
I just recently discovered your channel and am loving every video. My father was an avid gun collector, starting back in the early 60's; and while his tastes have changed over the years, he is still going pretty strong and my brothers and I have inherited the love of fine guns as well. He used to work the gun show circuit pretty hard back in the 70's and 80's trading mostly in early 1911's and German Lugers, but his longer term passion is well-built bolt action rifles (usually with Mauser actions). One of our most numerous items in "the collection" are several Belgian made Browning High Power Safari Grade rifles (pre-salt wood, of course). Have you had any experience with those particular rifles? Most of ours are the FN Mauser long action variants, plus a couple Sako short action ones. Cheers, and keep up the great work! :-)
Hi Clint - Thanks for being on the channel! The Safaris are gems - I even like the salt wood guns as they change hands for so little and are mechanically just as good as any Safari. I've owned a couple of dozen - at least - and not one was not excellent. Browning made the BBR, then the A Bolt, then the X Bolt and probably others. IMHO - the Safari was better than all of them and used, in good shape - is a steal.
excellent video, lovely old rifle. can you tell us more about the round it is chambered for ? The westley richards explora blog is well worth following too.
Ro eng :
It's the British
8mm Mauser.!!!
Ealier "J" bore, (.318") = 7,9x57J.
Later, the Germans augmented it to
(.323"), the "S" bore
of WW2, the
7,92x57 JS.
Again generally known as 8mm Mauser.!!!
Great video thank you
I could easily express myself with this one.
Amazing rifle. I can imagine the hunting adventures it has seen. You have to have confidence in a rifle to stand down a cape buffalo. The details are just a treasure. Do you have any Double barrel rifles from the time? Love your video series. I grew up hunting and shooting. My dad was a gunsmith and knew about every gun ever made. it brings back a lot.
Hi Charles, For awhile I had double gun fever; specifically double rifle fever. I had all kinds of British doubles, one or two from Belgium, a couple from Germany and France. Gradually I sold them, the values changed so dramatically. I am looking for a .303 British double as I don't hunt giant game often. I'm glad you are here and like the channel and such a blessing - that your dad was a gunsmith; the things he no doubt knew...wonderful.
I have always loved safari rifles and still hope to go on one but it seems like that part of the world gets more dangerous all the time. Dad is getting up there in years and not in great health but still with us. Of course his gunsmith days are over but I still ask him questions. He was a quite brilliant gunsmith. He changed the cam design on his Smith and Wesson revolver to shorten the double action. When he showed them at the Smith and Wesson academy they told him it wouldn't work. After testing it they copied his design. I still have that prototype. I'm going to direct him to your channel. I'm sure he would enjoy it.
Would I spend 20,000 on a rifle or 400,000 on a car? Absolutely not. If I had the money to invest in the car or rifle would I? Absolutely yes. Until then I'll just enjoy looking at these beautifully made rifles on USOG. thanks again.
Beautiful rifle.
Thanks for sharing. Would you consider a video showcasing a few of your Safari rifles, side by side?
Hi Paul - I have to ask a couple of collector friends to lend me some doubles - will do though.
Thank you, sir. I know you have mentioned that you wanted to do a range video but so many other channels do that already, so few do what you do. Old used guns almost tell their own story, like your WR. So save your shoulder and do not make your Safari gun comparison your range video...unless, of course, it helps you solve your Starling problem.
Very informative.
Thanks Peter!
Very Fine Rifle Sir
Excellent. Thank you.
Thank you Andy
Stunning..🇬🇧
Great Video, I couldn't say 100% without looking closely at the rifle, but I'd think when you fire the gun the front triggerguard screw is important to be tightened down for accuracy and good bedding though. Feel free to disagree and tell me why, awesome videos!!!
+Tristan Euritt Thanks Tristan. Keen eyes and sharp mind you have! I'm away but will check upon my return. Thanks for noticing and watching and letting me know.
Great video ,think Hawk makes .318 bullets and Woodleigh makes them also. Plenty of other makers also.
MrPh30:
The .318", IT'S the earlier cal. of the 8mm Mauser
( 7,9x57), with the
" J " bore.
Then, in between the WW1 and the WW2, the Germans changed to the .323" , " S " bore, (7,92x57 JS), and again generally known as, ( again ),
8mm Mauser.!!
Not the British .318 type, as Taylor wrote ,they wrote to mimic the 8mm by name ,but bullet diameter is not .318 or .323 at all . It is .330 inch .
Everyone in the comments seems to be arguing over whether or not a rifle could be worth so much... I'm wondering how big the starlings are in your area!
Hi Mike : ) these are jurassic park style mutant starlings I have. It was hard for me to tell how big they are until they dropped me and I hit the ground and looked up. : )
You earned my sub.
I would love too see 750gn 50cal tag a starling in slow mo
Thank you sir
Beautiful guns
I almost bought that exact same gun in 2015 from Prophet River Firearms in Alberta... I was constantly checking its availability and procrastinating over buying it.....alas I was not quick enough on the draw. I am glad it found a good home though
Those so called Royal guns (once owned by a Royal) - are hard to find for sure and don't come up often.
USOG If I may ask,did you export the gun to the States?
Very good rifle
Those are mighty fine rifles but price wise I would never own one. However, I feel fortunate in that I have a Pre64 Model 70 in .270 and consider it a "prized possession".
Rightly so - you have a classic rifle that is of real value; a great rifle to hold onto.
My belief of the reason why these rifles were not made with scope mounts was due to the quality and reliability of optics at the time. when scopes did start to become mounted on express rifles they were typically mounted with some form of quick release in the event the scope failed. We now have scopes of such high quality and reliability these days that we would never think of a back up system of express sights.
That's a beautiful rifle
Thanks Rod - truly a gem of a rifle.
When I was basic training, we used old 1903 Springfield rifles to learn the 16 count manual. I literally fell in love with the old gun, I would really like to buy one , but I am NOT interested in getting screwed on price just because.
I think Washington should send you one for free.
I ve been thinking about purchasing a Rigby in .275 Rigby. I have always liked
" less popular " calibers ie, 257 Roberts , 222 Remington and I'd just like to have a Rigby.
I m sure they cost about the same as a WR but I ve never have an English firearm and feel the quality is second to none.
I like westley Richards. 12 Bore DBBL. Gun. Excellent gun maker Westley Richards.
You'd fall in lust with my Mauser-actioned firearm chambered for the .264 Win Mag.
Yes indeed jimincairns - I probably would. Cairns : absolutely wonderful place; Kuranda and Palm Cove as well - some of my favorite places anywhere.
Anything sold is only worth what the market will bear regardless of by whom or were made... This Westley Richards is a very fine rifle, though the one problem with all Bespoke hand fitted firearms is that if anything becomes broken, or worn/damaged. The gun would need to be sent to the maker for work at a considerable cost due to the man-hours needed to fit the new part, and that being far more costly regardless of model, or maker. Because the parts were fitted only to that gun, there is no interchangeability between guns made on the same bench the same day and same model with out fitting because of the differences in part dimensions...
Modern firearms on the other hand with high tolerance CNC milling and high production standards are by far faster, less expensive to make due to no hand fitting being needed due to parts commonality/interchangeability. Other than the setting of the headspace for each gun, that has never changed...
A lot has been made about Hand made verse Production made firearms. Having been a Gunsmith for over 40 years and the lead customer service gunsmith of
Weatherby Rifles for over 10 years of that. I can say with considerable knowledge that quality/fit/finish between the two methods is so close now a days, as to be of little matter in the choosing.
The choice comes down to this. Are you as the buyer, willing to spend the money on a one off gun for the prestige of it. Or are you satisfied with a production model one of many at a greatly reduced cost that will deliver the same, if not better effect on the target. In the end I assure you, neither the animal shot, nor paper target is going to be impressed in the least with the differences between the two. You as the owner are the only one who can decide what is best for you in the end.
Brilliant. Publish this - and may as well write a book or article with more of the countless things you must know - I'm not kidding. Thanks for writing.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns thank you for saying so... ah yes one day one may pen there memoirs', but as for me I just simply like a bit of chewing on the rag as it were from time to time.
Don`t have the Westley Richards but do have the Mod 70 ! Shot everthing from Steenbuck to eland with it ,all with open sights.But that`s not to say I would not want to own a Westley Richards rifle.I do have my grandfathers Westley Richards shotgun ,purchased by him from them in 1909.
Hi Rupert, SXS or Ovundo? I had the drop lock SXS and the Ovundo - both so great. Your Mod. 70 : what cal. if you don't mind me asking?
Side by side,he ,my grandfather bought it while at Cambridge.The mod 70 is a 308 bought for me by my grandmother!Great grandparents,one might say!Thanks for asking.
1:14 - "This is not .318" **camera pans over to box of .50 BMG ammo box and two rounds lying on the table** "This is a different caliber for my starling problem."
Okay, now *that* was funny!
: )
good vid...
Its like buying any luxury item. The average rifle/ car / would last for two generations perhaps. But the Rolls or the Purdy it would be the several generations and its second hand value would hold its own. More so with guns really as less moving parts
Good perspective - one of the few things that last and remain useful - so long as there is ammo : )
If you can afford the gun someone will make your ammo if you pay.
Always wanted to see a takedown style. Thank you
Welcome Mark - there are many different ways - this one is simple and the barrel never leaves the action.
What about the mannlicher schonauer
Fantastic rifles.
Mannlicher Schoenauers use the Schoenauer rotary magazine and are turn bolt (not straight pull).
There were 'factory' Take Down Models (I have an M1910 TD) that used a system very similar to this but with a lever fore of triggerguard and removable forend pin. Turn lever, pull pin, barreled action lifts out.
"Worth" and "Valued at" are wholly different. It may be valued at a price to everyone but not worth that price to most...regardless, your knowledge and willingness to share these fine firearms in your collection is priceless! Thanks!
If you have the Means and desire...by all means aquire one or 5.
very nice
beatiful rifle and video sir , can you make video off fanzoj and ferlah kipplauf , best regards
Can make a video of double berrel shotgun
fanzoj.com/de/
Still love my CZ 550 safari in 505 Gibbs.
Hello Manuel - You have what I call one of the "ultimates." The Ultimates are a small group of no-compromise ultimate African dangerous rifles. I'm writing on it right now. In the long grass, or in the dark, with blood on the ground - these are the rifles that give you the hunter, the last, best chance - if you do your part - and are still physically able to. African roulette is a dangerous game. More to come.
Manuel Silva :
Manel, that's an elluva of a Safari Gun.
Congrats, (parabéns)!!
Great Classic cal.!!!
Not to be too nosy but what’s the price range on these vintage working rifles?
Royal guns with papers are hard to find but a regular rifle might be $9-$12K. Sometimes less if beaten up in India and/or Africa.
Oh definitely worth the money. When you get a high end gunsmith, that can put together such a fine rifle. You know he was not rushing through it, and probably took a lot of man hours to perfect.
You are one of the few that can see it.
Starling problem 😂😂😂
DANG
Is that sight container ivory?
Lovely gun, but I wouldn't mind a day or two just leafing through that rack of Gun Digests you have behind you!
Hi Christopher : ) Those books...I learned so much.
I think your starlings might be emus
Does Westley Richards make their own actions these days?
I don't think so.
USOG Whose actions do they use?
Minimum safari caliber is now .375 H&H magnum isn't it? I'll stay with my .375 thank you very much.
Hello Deep Bass - I think so - at least was for awhile except for plains game; I like the 375 better as well; although the .318 was well widely used and from the reports I've read - excellent in the field.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns W.D.M. Bell used WR .318 extensively.
Guns for guys who are trying to impress other rich friends
You're probably right - although at the top they don't know what anything costs.
I'm binge watching your videos and convinced ill be divorced soon from spending all money on guns
Ha, I have the same thoughts. I better tell the wife to hide the CC's now before it's too late.
Yeah I know what you mean.....just dont get into trains, stay in one hobby or you really get into trouble.
that's some rifle
Hi. Do you can help me, I want know how much my Westley richards 10g made between 1894-1904. Side by side. External hammers. Thank you
Hi Oleg - please send me a picture or two usogbyemail@gmail.com
did that start our as a military 98?
Hi Jeffrey - it sure did. These rifles are something.
I'm more familiar with WR for thier carbines, being a martini guy.
the fact that this WAS a military rifle makes the conversion that much more. Being owned buy who it was, DANG
Military surplus rifles is my area of study, I was almost sure it was. But, the machining at the back of the receiver was making me question.
The stippling on the top of the reciver ring was to scrub the original manufacturers (country crest?) name off.
I wonder if there's anything left that I could use to is the origin. Numbers on the bottom?
I'll check and get back to you.
☺
I don't understand why. Under all the surface gimicks and toys added, Husqvarna and original German Mauser makers made rifles equal if not better in their actual performance. Balance, suitabilty to purpose, handling, and performance all better or the same without gimicks. I drove a 240 Volvo for 15 years, I was told by other drivers that Americans or British simply don't understand them. It's the same principle.
I agree. A bolt action Husqvarna Mauser is not likely beaten by any rifle - at any price.
Yes
hi men nice video i have also westley richard 318 but i dont have ammunition
can u tell me some thing about 318 ammunition plz
Hi Muds, The .318 is not far different from the 30-06 in size and shape. Bullet diameter is .330 which is a little larger than the .308 bore of the 30-06. Bullets were heavier in the .318 - mostly 250 gr. which require a faster rate of twist in the rifling to stabilize the longer bullets. There were also 180 grain bullet loadings. The .318 was a popular light to medium rifle in Africa and one still encounters them from time to time. The best thing about the .318 are the fine rifles that chambered it. These days, an '06 can be loaded to do anything the .318 can/could. Hope this helps.
There is ammo around - try The Old Western Scrounger; Kynoch rounds show up now and then.
thankyou for reply ...but i checkd 30-06 bolet litel bit smaler then 318?
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns
It's really, a twin of the 8x60 mm
Mauser.!!!
They call it .318",
because WR measured the bore from the lands (ups), and not from the bottom of the grooves.
That's why they call it. 318", but actually the bullet diameter is .330"!!!
Very British.!!!
And the bullet has to squeeze,
(as all do), to grip the rifling.
Teorically, it's a twin of the German
8x60mm S
Mauser.!!
Uses a Round Nose bull. of generally 250 grain, with a Muzzle Vel. around 2400 fps.
You can Reload
(Handload) it, using a .30.06 case, trimmed to 2.38" length, and using a 8mm bull.!!
I like this Westley Rechard world famous huntig Rifle ,but I have no money ,
Thank your vedeo ,
Yes there an investment I get it however shoot and enjoy these beautiful rifles,that's what there for.i thinks it a crime to stick em in a safe
I agree : )
👏👏
its an modified orginal mauser with
Westley Richards details sight etc the gun is not hand made i can see that
Hi Tomas, I was just looking at another one, but it had a different take-down system - the barrel had an interrupted thread design - something like take-down Winchesters. Interesting rifles for sure. Thanks for writing.
oops....I was wrong it is a cheap m. 70! Thoight it was Rem. but can see 1980 or so Win
Good spotting - easy for them to look similar.
Too many " armed chair " WHAT IFS . Thanks Mike for trying to explain .
I agree