Academy Snippets: Memorizing Versus Knowing
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 5. 09. 2020
- In this clip from one of Chick's live workshops (part of the Chick Corea Academy), he discusses the difference between memorizing and knowing when it comes to learning a piece of music.
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I can offer a practical approach to internalizing/memorizing a song. 1) Work in small sections, 4--8 bars at a time. First analyze the harmony in terms of function/roman numerals. So for example, Autumn Leaves is ii-V-I-IV in major; followed by ii-V-i in the relative minor. 2) Sing the roots of those 7 chords. 3) play the roots of those chords with your left hand at the piano 4) play the roots again, this time adding the 3rd and 7th of the chord in the right hand. Those 4 steps should all be done for memory...no looking at a lead sheet. Optional step-Transpose steps 1-4 to another key. 5) Next...analyze every melody note in relation to the chord over which it occurs. This is the key to knowing a melody...how does each melody note relate to the chord, both in terms of understanding the relation of each note to the root and hearing the sound of that note in relation to the root. Memorize the melody that way...thinking of each melody note as an interval above the bass...is it a primary chord tone, root, 3rd, 5th 7th, or is it a color tone, 9th, 11th 13...or is it an altered tone b9 or #9, b5, #5. If you can do all of this easily, and particularly in several keys, you can feel pretty good about having internalized the song.
Genius. We miss you Chick.
Remembering Chick, internalizing him ... several decades ago, People magazine did a piece in which famous people were asked what they were most afraid of. Chick's answer was the only one I remembered ... and more or less was the following: 'What am I most afraid of? Now? Nothing. Fears is a feeling. It comes. I observe it, And it goes.'
Wow. That is very 'zen'.
in India...Chick would be call a "GURU" expeller of darkness....as above so below...to MASTER something in life....is to master LIFE
It's his Scientology knowledge.
@@georgegeorgievski he was a scientologist????
@@dudeman5303 Yes he was, for several decades actually.
Yes! Very zen. Music is life.
Not only a genius in music Chick was ... also a heartfull, sensitive teacher who is not frightening, but more respecting human nature ... and encouraging.
A very special musician, a good human soul, deeply be missed, rip and chick we all love you
And the reason that we learn or âknowâ a piece is so we donât have to âthinkâ during performance. Thought is the enemy of flow.
Thank you Chic, youâre a gift to music
Very interesting answer that instantly reminded my of a story named the Dexterous Butcher written by the Chinese Daoist philosopher Zhuangzi. Once you truly internalize something, you stop thinking about it. It becomes completely natural and effortless to you, and you will be able to perform at the highest level.
Donât practice till you get the piece right, practice till you canât get it wrong.
Works in âclassicalâ where the point is largely to play the written notes, not so much in jazz.
It took me so long to realize this concept, but it is the best advice for any musician.
I remember seeing Yo-Yo Ma on TV many years ago, and he played a solo cello piece. Afterward, he talked about it and said that he had been playing this particular piece for 25 years, and - I can't recall his exact words - but he said something to the effect that he was only now starting to really get comfortable with it.
I'd add to this, practice til you don't want to stop.
@@wanderingtravellerAB99 I'd say it's pretty much applicable to jazz just as much...so many ways to mess up if you do not know the piece well enough ... rhythm, harmony, the form, style... and I am sure experienced jazz musicians can expand this further.
Still feeling the sorrow of the great loss of a man who was so thoughtful and willing to share.
My 2 cents. To me reading and memorizing are necessary first steps for internalizing a piece (unless Iâm improvising). âInternalizingâ a piece, or making it your own, a part of you, takes time and living with and performing the piece for awhile. I love listening to Chickâs wisdom. Way better than my university professors.
Chick's answer is so profound. Knowing is a deep state of understanding - when you act without thinking. As a pianist and musicain I can recall so many times that my "memory" (thinking) only interupt with my playing. Practicing meditation is also very beneficail to become better in "Knowing" music withouy thinking :)
he is the best! simply. period. No one will replace you, thank you for al your knowledge and for always being so kind and humble to share it đ€
I needed this right now. RIP Mr. Corea and thank you.
Chick, the biggest thing you KNOW in this video is your/our ability to TALK to the questioner and us !! Look how we KNOW how to talk to others; to explain to others without having to think about each word before we say them !! Now that's a REAL example of internally just KNOWING; not reading, hardly even thinking ! We just do it !! And ideally that's how we want to play music...(which you do so well !)..
We met briefly about 25 yrs ago in the Good Earth restaurant in Glendale !! God I loved their breakfast with the nutty pancakes !
Mark, S.Pas.
We love and miss you Mr. Chick Corea.
In a nutshell Chick is differentiating between just playing the notes and feeling the music. This is the difference between a good and a great musician.
What an incredible man - and such an invaluable resource that he has left humanity in the last year of lockdown - all entirely for free, for everyone - a lifetimeâs worth of study...more...
Not to mention the masses of albums over his whole career - there are so many I never tire of that I wouldnât want to single one out... RIP maestro.
Thatâs so nice having you with your experience here.
Incredible! What a time to be alive!
A great life lesson, aswell as a music lesson. Thanks Chick!
Thank you for this explanation. It's straight forward and clear.
Thank you for sharing meaningful insight. Awesome!
What an awesome musician and human being. I hope I can see you live and shake your hands one day!đđ
Truly very interesting and masterful, as always.
Wow! i've been following the genial musicality of Chick Corea since 1973, and this clip featuring him, was the highlight of my day! Thank you, Chick.
Such an amazing musician! It's great to hear his thinking on music making. I have to say that I thought he was going to elaborate more on things like hearing your way through the melody and harmony, understanding the harmony and melody connection, and knowing the form. In my personal experience, these are the things that really help me "know" a piece. There are some pieces I've learned that I can have not played for years and they just come back to me. I "know" those also, but many of these are not tunes I understand as much as have the built-in muscle memory. Maybe that's a difference? Knowing is a level, but understanding can inform knowing and that takes it to a different level? Or maybe understanding is the level before knowing. Just things that came to mind as I listened to Chick.
Could listen to him play Mozart, all day. He really knows it. As a classical pianist, I think most of us get to the place where muscle memory becomes a factor in the practice, like a well-rehearsed dance routine focused on the hands. Chick understands the music on another level.
Outstanding insights from a living legend!
Awesome!! Thanks Chick!
Thank you Chick Corey for this amazing content!
Fantastica explicacion!! aplicable para la vida tambien
Very Insightful !! Thanks
You can apply this to everything in life, everything!
Even tho I am not worthy to flatten your sharps, your message resonates with me & I will share with guy I play guitar with. He brings piles of songs, play once then move to next (not even memorize!). For me (and you, I think) the "fun" begins when you "know" the song. This probably applies across many domains, from Ronaldo and football to particle physics.
Outstanding creativity I can recall even 40 years back.
i'd be interested to know what Chick has to say about the 'knowing' of a jazz chart, where the interpretation of the song structure has so many varied possibilities. The Mozart is a more or less fixed entity, but a jazz chart can give rise to a zillion performed entities, though all emanating from the (more or less) 'known' of the chart/structure.
Thanks Chick Corea, that was beautiful
Chick connects his approach to life in general to musical improvisation which is a wonderful way to live. Or at least strive to live.
I learnt something knew by watching this short video by Chick Corea. Something I think most people instinctively "know" but seem to forget in this rat race called society.
Thanks Chick - will miss your creative musical output and live performances.
6:53 spotted some chick corean flair there in the piece by mozart đ he can't help it đ
Saw that too. You almost wonder if he realized he did it. But yeah, prolly he did, since he was trying to emphasize the "knowing." A little light-hearted fun.
Chick 'knew' how to swing ; )
Chick Blessing to you !!!
Good insight Uncle Chick
Trying to learn Lifescape from his Behind The Mask album. I have a very minimal understanding of music theory, so I have only my eat and memory to rely on. I end up writing out my own tablature and slowly learning where each note is. That process eventually translates I to muscle memory. Change the key and I'm lost LOL
Well said!
Excellent answer to the question. Memorize then know knowing gets the result đ.
A very cerebral answer about learning, memorizing, and ... owning. I've been both FT cover band player, songwriter... for MANY years, and have been blessed with almost perfect relitive pitch. And IMO that is key... the other blessing is to be able to "hear" the pitches, construct harmony and counterpoint, and define groove ... in your head... without an instrument in your hands. Some of that is merely repetition, and experience. But, even as a child, I was able to "memorize" songs, and sing harmony to them... before I ever picked up the piano, or guitar. I could pick out harmonies within a given song.
That, I believe, is hereditary... your brain is wired, or... its not... to imagine the "music" in your head... you can learn to improvise simply by humming the part to yourself... after that... its 10k hours of learning to be technically proficient on your given instrument, enough that your proficiency, or lack thereof, does not impinge on your ability to pull what's in your head, and put it to an instrument.
I've put in the 10k hours, still so much to absorb, learn, and grow as a musician.
So in a sense, Chick is right on... owning it means that you must internalize it...
and when its your own work... thats easy... with enough technique in the bag, one can improvise within, and without the structure. Most of my practice time is improvising... noodling... you never know when a nugget will appear... oh.. btw... record Everything... and
PLAY EVERY DAY.
The Mozart of our times- Mr. Corea. Thank you.
Mozart piano concerto no. 24 in C minor, just if you want to have a listen to it.
Thanks!
Why I came to the comments.
Thanks.
I heard you play the MOZART 20 in d minor with the St Paul Chamber Orchestra a number of years ago. Your playing was better than most big-name concert pianists I have heard and I have heard plenty - I can name them but I don't want to embarrass anybody. The viola player William Primrose wrote a book titled Technique is Memory (and he was right) which my violin teacher recommended. Needless to say, I admire your artistry!!!! You are a fabulous role model for any artist/musician. Regards!!!
I like to think i've internalized (know) a piece of music when I can hear and listen to it when i'm playing, in an almost third-person. At this point I have the option to fantasize over it and that manifests as improvising or controlling the expression. And, with other musicians, it means listening to them too, along with yourself. And altering the course of events based on the total sound. Always remember, not playing is an option too. So you see this is a multi-level concept.
I like that Mozart line. You put a jazz touch to it. Love it.
what this piece is?
Thinking about what the piece consists of can really help you 'know' it. E.g. If it's based on chords, what degree of the scale are they built on? Is it a common progression that exists elsewhere? Is the Melody spelling out an arpeggio or scale? Etc. That kind of thing really helps me so it's not just random notes.
I wonder if it's something he presumes without thinking. Like, of COURSE you're going to recognize that you're arpeggiating a diminished seventh based on the fifth scale degree. Is it automatic for him? He's got a LOT of music stored in his head, and he's written a lot, and a lot of what he does is improvised in the moment, over LONG stretches of music. All of that is facilitated by knowing the construction.
Maybe he's also presuming that people are smart, and will figure out the math--and that it's more important to make the mental-philosophical distinctions? Sadly we can't ask him anymore. We miss you already, Chick.
@@ralphjohnson4360 I'm sure he's "internalized' theory and understanding of music to such a degree that he doesn't actively think what chord or arpeggio or note he's about to play. He probably thinks in terms of musical ideas and his fingers know where to go from years of practice
Man just was it all, true master.
Thank you Chick
EPIC!!
I think a neurologist might think of 'internalization' in terms of brain plasticity. I don't know what plasticity means other than in the vaguest sense that brain physically remaps itself, which is totally different from memory storage.
The best results I ever got in putting together a recital program was by not repeating anything immediately after I played it. Instead, I interlace different phrases, even from different pieces. So I play phrase 1, then play phrase 2, then phrase 3, or maybe practice a scale, and then I repeat phrase 1.
Repeating something immediately is drawing on instant recall, which is never the case when you are performing. E.g., if I told you my phone number, you remember it long enough to put it in your contacts because you just heard it two seconds ago. But five minutes later, you've forgotten it. The same with practicing something you just practiced two seconds ago. I don't want to repeat out of instant memory.
You mean work memory...
Insightful, intriging comment. Gives me a new take on Edwin Gordon's teaching of audiation.
Thank you chick !
i know what the questioner means by 'internalize' - which is what chick surmised by 'know' vs. memorize - to become one with, where the music is on auto-pilot (like driving a car) vs. having to think about the individual actions (turn the wheel, press the pedals, etc.). i think this has a lot to do with first knowing your instrument extremely well, such that it's an extension of yourself. i have a good friend who is a former concert pianist, and when he sits at the piano he's not thinking about the instrument, he's engaged with the music. i also think internalizing the music means understanding the underlying structure, the bigger picture, so to speak - not memorizing the notes in a particular order but seeing the chord progressions, the compositional theory and composer's intent behind the notes.
anyway, still gutted over the loss of maestro corea, who has influenced and inspired me for more years than i can count.
It's kind of the same thing in my head. Memorizing and knowing is pretty much the same. Although I don't memorize the notes per say I am memorizing the sounds and placements to the point that I simply know them. And just like he said learning sections at a time until you know it and eventually you know the whole thing. You just have to play it often or else you'll forget it lol
Amazing...Reason...Cheersâ„ïžđ
Great Maestro, we miss you
He describes the process like he's just a regular person like anyone else. And he gives the impression that he had to put in lots for work just like anyone else. But the thing is... he's Chick Corea!!
Well you know what did you have to memorize it to be like a harmonic structure or we could be like melodies? And what's a harmonic extraction?
True wisdom here. RIP Chick.
concerto is gorgeous
Excellent discussion and suggestions, including the comments. I would humbly suggest, you can internalize a piece without being a proficient reader, through the diligent work of practice and good listening. There's an interesting book that touches on all this from a physiological perspective called "The Brain that Changes Itself" by Norman Dooidge, about the concept of neuroplasticity and how it works. We don't grow new neurons but we can redirect the ones we've got through repetition and work; i.e., practice. Hence the "process of internalization". Respect and appreciation for a good reader, a level of mastery many can only keep striving to achieve. There are many pathways.
This. Also, Soft Wired by Michael Merzenich, who was a main reference for Doidge's book.
How did you internalize the concept of neuroplasticity?... You read it.
You are awesome
To. Know. THANK YOU.
Gosh darn it Chick Corea is a master and deserves great respect, but it takes him a long time here to explain what every student should already know from experience - you read it; you read/ play it over and over, you work on the tricky parts ... and bit by bit, through repetition, your fingers 'absord' the memory of where they have to go. The speed of the process and its 'finer points' will vary with the individual, with talent, age and experience, but the process itself is probably pretty familiar to all who have given it a go
Eamonn Morris wonderful summation. There is no substitute for time and repetition. Building muscle memory takes both.
Beautifull
Rest in peace BIG MANâ„ïžâ„ïžâ„ïž
You are the universe.
Nice video! Its interesting that you pick the one concerto that Mozart did which he (for him) struggled with and reworked it several times. Of course its my favorite because the form is so elaborate (not typical of what he usually did in piano concertos) and the effects of the music so deep. (And as you say, what melodies!) I think the polar opposite of that concerto and its heavy gravitas is the light as air other worldly concerto, 27 in Bb. It's like it's from the magic flute world!
Thanks for a very interesting video.
I saw another video of Chick playing a difficult piece with his Eletrik band and was just thinking about this very subject when this video came up. It seems the general consensus is repetition repetition respitition intil it all starts to set in. Musicians with Chick must know how to read music when going through his work. Then I gather they go home and work on this stuff until the sheet music is no longer needed.
Guru levels... philosophy... music... life...
This a bit didactic and there is a missing piece here - recognition. The difference between early Macs and command line PCs was the latter relied on memory. For example many people have to recite the alphabet (memory recall) to work out the order of letters.(test yourself what letter comes after T?). Whereas Macs with a graphical interface relied on recognition pathways, as in "ah I have seen this before" Of course now all GUI based digital devices follow suit. I think in music recognition is the bridge between memory and knowing (and vice versa) and also allows us to quickly grasp new pieces (ie by recognising a II-V-I pattern). And then we have to remember that some people rely upon memory, others recognition and others knowing or combinations thereof. We are complex animals :-)
Good point about having a menu system as compared to hidden key functions.
Brilliant player a good teacher. This is like asking Magic Johnson how to pass the ball well. He has so deeply internalize this process that he can't really explain it the rest of us. Another more simple answer would be... Just practice it until you have become unconsciously competent at it... Or more simply.... You just practice.. There is no secret method, just hard work.
The great bebop drummer Stan Levey used the term "Built-in" ... having listened to a piece of music over and over to the point where you no longer have to think about it.
muscle memory.
As Chick said at the end. It begins w/ Improvisation,becomes Repetitive ,than transits to Memory.
What concerto by Mozart is this?
Mr Correa , Good attempt at trying to explain the different levels of spiritual development. In a nutshell the highest spiritual realization ( using more than 15% of your brain ) â pure expression from the soul â
without contemplation ( various degrees ) which might hinder the creative instinct. I think. I still feel that Iâm skipping a step or two
RIP legend
Live in it and use your muscle memory
Which is the mozart piece chick playing here?
Master of Masters
OMG !! He was learning my favorite Mozart Concerto (24 in c).....just heartbreaking he never formally recorded it
Your attempt to say that "memorization" is not the way to 'internalize' a piece is flawed. Our name address and phone numbers are committed to memory by two techniques, looking at the value and saying it over again, and then repeatedly recalling the values from memory. When you have recalled the values when playing (practicing a musical piece) then you have committed to a level of memory that is harder to lose and easier to recall. But, it is STILL memorization. Every time I do a calculation with pen and paper, I am accessing/recalling math tables that I memorized years ago. And each access "refreshes" that memory. Just recently I tried to recall "6*9" and failed, so I went to "5*9=45" and added 9 to get 54. Now "6*9" has been "refreshed".
Your attempt to understand conscious effort vs unconscious fluidity/fluency is flawed.
@@Dericulus You made an assertion. Please explain how is it flawed?
Heâs talking more-so about the distinction of memory vs muscle memory, which is often called system 1 and system. Certain actions are so ingrained that you can play them but you canât even think about it. I.e you can play a piece but if somebody asks you what the 6th note of the piece is you might not know unless you think while playing it.
@@6thdim I agree with your explanation. The problem I see is that Mr. Corea doesn't equate seem to understand, or at least convey that 'memory' and 'knowing' come from the same place, the brain.
> ... but you canât even think about it. I suggest you mean "you don't even have to think about it"
You have learned the piece well enough that playing it is like walking. But if you have to explain the mechanics of the action, it actually 'slows you down' because you are having to recall the information so you can interpret for speaking.
leef_me sure but I donât think he has to acknowledge that for the sake of what heâs teaching. Itâs not about the scientific accuracy, itâs just about learning to make certain things second nature. Corea is just talking about what he knows to be true, without caring much for what IS true. I donât think it makes his explanation less accurate because the intricacies of memory function isnât what the viewer is trying to learn from him
âThatâs our goal. Thatâs really our goal as musicians. Itâs our goal as human beings. Is to not have to memorize life. You just go and you live life. And that was what I meant in the beginning. Is that everything comes from improvisation. And let your self been seen, let yourself being.â
That's really helpful. I know my phone number but if you asked me what the fifth number was, I'd have to go through it from the beginning to tell you đ
Nice
đ
Chick on that level.
Does anyone know which piano concerto of Mozart this is?
Mozart piano concerto no. 24 in C minor,
thanks for existing chick
MARIA
I would say it is the opposite. When you have memorized it, you don't have to think. But when you know it, it is then you start to think. And it is also when you know it you start to improvise right on the spot.
Sven Svensson you're absolutely right!
Not really .Think of memorised language as opposed to knowing language as a child does ; there's a difference, and I think that's what Chick is getting at with music.
â@@mikeregan3265 A child also memorizes, he does so with structures and patterns that he is told that make sense, a 3-4 year old does not know grammar or anything like that. But that process is far too miraculous to compare it now.
I think the proper way is saying that both knowing and memorizing are part of the learning process. First you know it, then you create habits to automatize what you have learnt by repeating and/or memorizing so you can go ahead and play/improvise wihout thinking too much. I certaninly can't imagine playing a Rachmaninoff concerto thinking every note or a jazz pianist without having memorized (internalized) some things. Actually, you memorize a Mozart concerto so you can focus on interpretative aspects (classically speaking), something that Chick is not addressing here because and I don't think that's his field.
@@AlexAlguacil Sorry, but I think Chick is on the right track.
@@mikeregan3265 your comment makes a lot of sense to me. It brings to mind the difference between reading out the slides on a PowerPoint presentation or speaking about each slide using them as a point of reference.
what piece of Mozart is he playing ;0? it sounds beautiful
Its from the first movement of the 24th piano concerto.
@@1950francesca thanksđ€
RIP Maestro!!đąđ
#Everydaystrangers
Iâve always philosophically thought what isnât memorization.
This video made me realize how dreary and stale an outlook that has been. I feel a bit better now.
Chick said: "when you know something you don't have to memorize it"...well, the truth is for to know something, you have to learn and MEMORIZE it before! Like your name, a very known subject, that reside in the "long term memory" in the brain. You know your name, because is one of the most exposed subject in your life since years, with everyday repetitions, maybe since the same day you born. To know something very deep, you must memorize it before, and to achieve this, repetition (and practice) is the key.
So, Chick is confuse himself with the terms, he thinks that "knowing" is different or unrelated to memory, and sadly is the opposite, what he calls "knowing" is in fact "long term memory".
And other subject, is that "brain" memory, is different than "muscle" memory, that is controlled for others parts of the nervous system.
I think a better example of the "knowing" he is talking about is when one is able to quickly access something like the third chord a given key, even if the key is unfamiliar to them . To do this one has to memorize systems and rules instead of all possibilities.
I think this is how most people do math and more rigid and technical things, but i think the concept can be applied in a slightly abstracted form to learning songs.
A practical example of this being applied to songs would be instead of memorizing note for note you can break it down into the repeating structures, which is something i think most people will naturally do. And a more advanced example would be the more you know about the conventions of the style you are playing, the more parts that are typical or deviant of that style will stick out as something to pay attention to.
So in other words, practice 40 hours a day
I love that he played Mozart