Rob Bell and Andrew Wilson // Homosexuality & The Bible // Unbelievable?
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- čas přidán 2. 05. 2013
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Part of a wider discussion on the Unbelievable? radio show/podcast. To hear the full debate: goo.gl/JH23v
Rob Bell returns to Unbelievable? 2 years after his debate on the controversial best-seller 'Love Wins,' to talk about his latest book 'What we talk about when we talk about God'.
Andrew Wilson is an author and theologian with the New Frontiers church network. He quizzes Rob about his view of God, and his recently stated support for gay marriage.
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If you notice Rob Bell talks a lot about culture and time we live in. This is a huge issue right now. We live in a time where Pastors are striving for church growth. In order to grow you must stay relevant. However so many Pastors are sacrificing biblical integrity in the name of relevance. God is timeless! It is possible to be relevant and still speak the truth! Sin is real and must be addressed but under the covering of love!
Great conversation! Thank you Rob and Andrew.
Great example of disagreeing politely. I hope that more Christians can disagree without being mean to one another. Just be honest with what the foundations of your beliefs are... know why you believe what you believe about every issue.
“That’s how the world is.” And we are not to be like the world. 😔
I'm not really a Christian in the traditional sense but I have to say that, from what is shown here, the only thing that Rob Bell made clear was that he was extremely uncomfortable with having to deal with this issue. Everything he said seemed to lack conviction and he didn't really seem to have any basis for what he was putting forward.
Andrew Wilson on the other hand seemed intelligent, thoughtful, controlled and absolutely clear in what he was saying.
The Scripture on this issue is as clear as anything gets in the Bible. It's condemnation of homosexual sexual acts is more clearly prescribed than the affirmation of the trinity is. Arguments to the contrary are without merit.
Any major Christian Church in the US that caves in on this issue simply to pander to the self centered minority who, like the young man in Mark 10:17, want to have their cake and eat it, will be pushing the start button on it's own demise. If it abandons Scripture to gain popularity or to not lose what it has then what authority can it claim?What does it become - a social club - a community center?
TheSmithDorian "...the self centered minority who, like the young man in Mark 10:17, want to have their cake and eat it. "
From my perspective as a gay man it is the MAJORITY who represent the young man in Mark 10v17: they get the choice of celebacy or marriage and spit the dummy at the idea of sharing this 'cake'.
I do not think you are being fare to Rob in saying he looks uncomfortable. All the teachers I know wear one face for teaching and others when in debate. He is accepting Andrew's challenges thoughtfully. Would you rather he step out of character in that respect?
differous01
“From my perspective as a gay man it is the MAJORITY who represent the young man in Mark 10v17: they get the choice of celebacy or marriage and spit the dummy at the idea of sharing this 'cake'.”
Remember that these are supposedly God’s laws - not human laws. So however the ‘cake’ is shared it’s not heterosexual humans that are deciding it.
Your position seems to be that you don’t think it’s fair that these laws/rules should apply to you because you really want to do what one of the laws says you shouldn’t do.
Furthermore, you feel that this law places a much bigger burden on you, as somebody who is attracted to men, than it does on heterosexual males who are not attracted to men. In other words, compliance requires an unequal level of sacrifice from individual to individual.
Yes, it does. But so do most laws;
“Thou shall not steal” - is easy to comply with if you happen to be a rich single man. If you are poor with no job and a family to feed it’s much more difficult.
“Thou shall not commit adultery” - For most of human history the majority of marriages have either been arranged or out of family duty or economic necessity. Most of the time the man wouldn’t have had a choice over who he was marrying and the woman almost never would. Being physically attracted to your spouse was not a factor that was given much, if any, consideration. If you happened to be married to somebody that you found to be physically repulsive it’s going to be more of a strain to resist committing adultery than if you were married to someone that you find to be physically attractive.
“Thou shall honor thy Father and Mother” - Easy if your parents are caring kind people that want the best for you. Harder if your parents happen to be abusive assholes.
It’s the same with lots of modern laws. If you drive a clapped out old VW Beetle that can only do 65 mph and you do all your driving on city center roads, keeping below a speed limit of 70 mph isn’t hard to do.
Christianity has never been about equality or fairness or justice in this life. It’s almost the opposite. It’s about doing what you need to do in this unfair, unjust world to gain equality, fairness and justice in the next life. The Bible is full of inequality - between Jews and Gentiles, Men and women, married men and single men, free men and slaves. The message is that the inequities will be made right at the end; it’s not that everything should be peaches and cream right now. It’s essentially, suffer, make your sacrifices and keep the faith.
“I do not think you are being fare to Rob in saying he looks uncomfortable”
I think he does look uncomfortable but understandably so. He has drawn quite a lot of criticism from conservatives in the past over what they considered to be populist positions that he has taken and advocated. What he is saying here will undoubtedly draw even more. It’s not just the issue of accepting homosexuality itself; it’s as much to do with why he is advocating acceptance. If he was arguing that certain Biblical passages had been misinterpreted or mistranslated and that the correct readings did allow room for homosexual physical acts to be acceptable under some circumstances - he’d still be criticized but probably only fairly lightly and not by every Church leader.
But he’s basically arguing that as time goes by Church membership will suffer if it does not change its position because acceptance of homosexuality is becoming more widespread in the general population all the time. And he’s probably right.
The Church establishment on the other hand feels that God’s position does not change with every fad, fashion and folly like man’s position does. And that if the Church was to amend its doctrine and teachings on the basis of their popularity among society or even the global or nation al congregations, then it’s no longer a Church but rather a social club that changes its rules every time the wind changes. And I think that they are right.
TheSmithDorian"...these are supposedly God’s laws ..."
Supposedly? Really? You believe this?
"How can you say "we have the law" when the lying pens of the scribes have altered it?" (Jeremiah8v8)
That's in the Bible btw.
If the doctrine that the Bible is the word of God was meant to mean what you are saying - that it's infallible - wouldn't the crede makers have declared the Godhead to be composed of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible?
That is the position you [EDIT: sorry, not you, but some I have met] are elevating the Bible to.
differous01
“Supposedly?” Yep.
“Really?” Yep.
“You believe this?”
My beliefs are not the issue. I’m just giving you what the orthodox Christian Church position is.
"How can you say "we have the law" when the lying pens of the scribes have altered it?" (Jeremiah8v8)
That's in the Bible btw”
This passage is referring to the practice in Jeremiah’s day of scribes copying sections of the law from the Torah and reproducing them in such a way as for it to be beneficial to themselves or their Patrons.
But the Torah scrolls themselves weren’t corrupted. They were treasured possessions that remained in a family or in the temple for generations. They couldn’t be altered and they were hugely expensive works of craftsmanship. Their production was heavily regulated and incredibly time consuming and labor intensive. Which is why copies of only the relevant sections of the law would be made as their patrons required.
“If the doctrine that the Bible is the word of God was meant to mean what you are saying - that it's infallible…”
I didn’t say that.
”wouldn't the crede makers have declared the Godhead to be composed of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit and the Holy Bible?”
Not really. The first 3 are supposed to be eternal spirits existing in a spiritual realm - the last one is just a book. It might have trouble staying afloat up there in heaven.
You seem to be introducing the possibility that the Bible might be wrong in what it says about homosexuality By which I mean misinterpreted, mistranslated or intentionally altered so that it doesn’t reflect God’s word on this issue. But you’re not actually coming out (no pun intended) and saying it.
So let me ask; do you have any real reason to think or evidence to support the idea that the passages on homosexuality in the Bible as they currently appear do not reflect what the original author wrote / intended them to mean?
I’m curious - the way you write suggests that you consider yourself to be a Christian. If you don’t then why would you bother about what it says? But at the same time you seem prepared to question whether the Bible is either accurate / true or the word of God to resolve this issue of homosexuality.
Does that not create a huge conflict for you? If you can deny the Bible’s authority or veracity on this issue, which is pretty clearly set out and not the subject of any dispute concerning translation or interpretation, then on what basis can you take any other part of it as the foundation for your Christian beliefs?
‘That is the position you are elevating the Bible to.’
Nothing could be further from the truth. I’m giving you the orthodox Christian position. I’m telling you how Christians that believe that the Bible is God’s word, arrive at that position
You asked about my beliefs concerning the Bible and OT law. Below is a copy of a comment that I posted some weeks back on a different video. It should give you a good idea what I think personally;
*****************************************************
31 December 2014
He's asking the wrong question.
The question should be; - 'Am I correct in thinking that the Bible is God's perfect word'?
It can be broken down further to get to the answer;
1) Did either God or Jesus ever instruct man to formulate a Bible?
2) Did either God or Jesus ever tell man what books should go into the Bible?
3) Did either God or Jesus ever give man any criteria to enable him to decide which books should be in the Bible and which should not?
4) Did either Gods or Jesus ever confirm that the books that are currently in the Bible are the correct ones?
5) Did either God or Jesus ever say that the canon was closed?
6) Did any of the biblical authors ever claim to be writing under God's 'inspiration'?
If the answers to 1) - 6) are 'no', then the answer to the main question must be 'NO'.
****************************************************
TheSmithDorian First of all my apologies.
1/ I did not check your back posts to see what you were defending. I was lazy, so I thought I'd just ask if you believed it.
2/ putting the emphasis on "really" - and all that flowed from it - was hubris; it presupposed your purpose.
Regarding my beliefs I used to be a Christian, but now I'm atheist/agnostic. Yes, it was an irreconcilable position. After 7 years of celibacy it became intollerable that I was not seeing any sign of the healing advocated.
I have read Karen Armostrong's works on how the Bible was written. Jeremiah 8v8 is coincident with the revisions to the Torah which, evidence strongly suggests, went on under king Josiah. The scribes in question are known as the 'Deuteronomists' or 'second law makers'. What we have in the Bible now is the result of this and, maybe, the later revisions under Ezra. That final revision is coincident with Ezekiel whose "you have made Sodom a byword" COULD be a rebuttal of the Levitical injunctions. It is a weak position though. Your 6 questions are a much more elegant approach to the problem I've been wrangling with.
Thank you very much for taking the time.
Everyone has sin they struggle with, but if we repent God will forgive us. I have my own struggles but I would never try to justify it by saying that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.
Your struggles are in no way on par with a gay man trying to live a celibate life.
@@Hoodedcrickets every person has struggles in Life you have no idea what that person is going threw to compare the struggle
Homosexuality is no more sinful than heterosexuality.
Good luck getting a straight answer out of Rob Bell. He's the king of obfuscation.
Rob did a brilliant job.
I have yet to find him answering a straight question with a straight answer. As a result, I don't trust him.
He was answering but they were not connecting. Andrew was honed in on the act itself. Rob was describing the role he sees gay people in the church … in committed relationships, not just having sex in temples, etc
Really grateful that they were able to have a spirited exchange. Regardless of where one lands on the issue, to be able to dialogue openly, genuinely while simultaneously disagreeing, sharply, is pretty nice to see.
It is odd that this issue gets to be such a dividing line. The scripture makes me feel that it is sin. Yet personally I'm far more offended by liars than gays. It is an easy sin to pick on for those ofus not tempted of it.
Yes, both of these men model how to respectfully dialogue and disagree within a Christian brotherhood. Thankful for their spirits.
Rob Bell is defending the reason why people don't want to be part of the church . He even called it " bullshit" . Did Jesus preached the Gospel of how to be part of a church or repent of sin and your sins will be forgiven ? This are 2 different things . He wants to build a church , not to call people to repent and turn away from their sin. I'm very impressed on how much sympathy is showed to people rather than a crucified, suffering Jesus on the cross to make a way for you to get to His Father? How can you show more empathy with people rather than your Creator. If the Bible says it is abomination for me to lie , doesn't matter if was said 2000 years ago.
This discussion is very telling. It is a modern discussion in the truest sense of the word. Teasing out divine conception on this matter has become increasingly difficult for true intellectuals that have an honest commitment to follow Christ. Why? Because culture matters. It always has. I am not gay. I am a man who has been married for three decades. I was a virgin when I got married. I did what I was taught by my spiritual leaders in the body of Christ. They told me and showed me scriptures to support what they taught me. Here’s where culture comes in: there are three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. My example is this: when did polygamy become not ok? The Old Testament never condemns it, and we know it condemns a lot of sexual behavior. The New Testament never explicitly condemns it. One wife for a Bishop is mentioned, Jesus references Adam and Eve as God’s original format but does not openly condemn having more than one wife nor does he openly condemn same sex relations. Why not? It would be easy to do and we are referenced as spiritually slow like sheep who are easily misguided. Why not make things more straight forward for the slow among us? The most logical reason is that the modern questions we are asking today were not culturally relevant to the audience he was addressing at the time. Paul spent much of his ministry addressing cultural quagmires in the early gentile churches. Why? Because there were a lot of quagmires. They needed a true scholar to deal with these things and Paul was uniquely qualified. What I’m saying is this: marrying more than one woman at a time is illegal in America today but if that changed tomorrow the body of Christ would be in a quagmire theologically because there is no explicit text condemning it ever. The church would not just accept this change without question. We all know this. Why? Because the body of Christ has it’s own culture outside of the secular world and other world religions. That in the end is what these two men of faith are actually wrestling with. The secular worldview or the church traditional worldview are just intellectual hats they are putting on or taking off. None of us follow the strict law codes or the exact cultural behaviors referenced in the New Testament. We pick and choose. If we didn’t women would be silent in all Christian churches, none of the women would be wearing any make up or pants, and slavery would still be okay in America. According to Paul’s letters that’s the way it should be. Times change and that change is cultural. Love God with all you are, love your neighbor as you love yourself and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
Amen and Amen🎉
Amen ❤
Then you would specifically have to deny that the Holy Spirit was leading the Apostles in truth and away from error and would continue to throughout the ages, John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." and you would have to go further with not only denying that promise of Christ but the words of St. John when it comes to the Holy Spirit teaching us, 1 John 2:27, "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." You specifically would have to deny these since as we go on we know that the Holy Spirit came upon St. Paul and Jesus even specifically teaches on the sermons of the mount in Matt 5:18, "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." and to accept that things are different because culture has changed which seems to be the point of your argumentation you would once again have to deny St. Paul's teaching again on not conforming to the world in Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Saying that because we live in different times God has changed his mind on something He said was sin is changing God, it's literally stating a fact on God without saying anything about God. The thing that would be implied by such a conclusion would be "God was wrong or God isn't perfect" I would argue to the complete contrary and even go further and say that He, Jesus specifically put a Church on earth for the salvation of men that would be lead by His promises to St. Peter, in Matt 16:17-19, "And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” This would point to the Catholic Church, which has always followed the Biblical instructions unlike common Christians of today, and all the evidence points to the Catholic Church being the legitimate Church Jesus Christ put upon earth with not just Scripture but with history and physical miracles that cannot be explained by science today. Also to suggest that it is not immoral for a man to be with a man is contrary to everything I have put forward and what all the Ancient Churches have taught and never wavered on. This is what happens when we get people who don't follow the Church God specifically put on earth, we have to start rejecting the teachings of not only the Apostles but of Jesus and imply that God was wrong or not perfect. This is a deception of the devil, plain and simple. I have eyes to see and it is clear to me, it's clear to the Apostles and Jesus, and it's clear to His Church. Also you imply that nowhere in the New Testament doesn't teach Polyamory but I would argue it is implied especially since we do not see this in the early Church which if you follow the Scriptures they were lead by the Holy Spirit and still are today, how do I get this inference you may ask? In Gen 2:24, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Now we know that Adam only had Eve in the garden, God made it that way and I don't see how multiple people could become one flesh, it does not make sense and I would say Jesus implies this Himself in Matt 19:4-6, "He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”" Jesus was speaking on how God allowed them to do things the way there weren't supposed to be because of their hardness of hearts, it wasn't suppose to be that way it was suppose to be the way God originally made it, one man and one women come to be one flesh literally when they have children which is the commandment of God in Gen 1:28, "And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”" you cannot not fulfill this commandment and bring glory to God while in a man on man or women on women relationship, it is actually impossible for them to become one flesh the way God made it to be so it is in direct opposition to God and Jesus never refuted Lev 20:13, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." He actually affirms it in Matt 5:18 as I have already shown above. I can only agree to "Love God with all you are, love your neighbor as you love yourself." we are called to direct people out of sin and error those of us that are living in truth however with the Holy Spirit and from your implication it seems you have conformed to the world and "that's just the way things are" when in many different places it is condemned to "be a friend of the world" 1 John 2:15, "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." and in James 4:4, "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." James 1:27, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." and the worst in my opinion for supporting this world view, 1 John 5:19, "We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." Do not conform to this world and the way the world wants things to be, it is of the devil as he has domain of the world which is another Biblical teaching but I think I have made my point quite clear that even purpose the rhetoric you have written is putting you at enmity with God and I hope you repent from it and actually accept the Holy Spirit and His teachings. My prayers go out for you.
Amen 🙏
Well said
Fascinating discussion. I think people are being a little hard on Rob here. He's uncomfortable because he's kinda being two-wayed by people who disagree with him. Not every question deserves a yes/no answer. Often people set you up in simple traps with simple black/white questions, or the questions themselves simplify reality. It's legitimate to question the foundation of a question. I'm not saying I thin Rob is perfect here. I think it's a searching conversation about a really thorny problem, that intelligent, well-intentioned men conduct well.
most frustrating though that we don't see the answer to the perfectly fundamental and essential question asked by Andrew at the end - actually made me thumb-down the video in the end because it was just a tease and cut off at the most critical moment
Most matters live in the Gray. Not black and white
Really well said.
I like Rob Bell, I think he has raised some important points and questions for the Christian faith. I think he has lost his way in this area (as we all can). He looks uneasy here and has very little scripture to stand on. Andrew Wilson is preaching a new life in/through Christ (regeneration), Rob is preaching monogamy and commitment, but also a whole lot of permissiveness. It really doesn't call people to a higher level of living.
Exactly, Rob is uneasy and his eyes tell us he is afraid of these questions.
I don't think Rob even views the Bible in the same way these other men do anymore. His book "What is the Bible" is a good example of his most recent thinking. Thus the argument probably is people speaking two different languages.
How do people at Rob Bell's church sit through his sermons when he doesn't seem to be able to answer one simple question or quote one bible verse?
That "simple" question was a criminalizing, sucker punch for someone in the church community. You know that and I know that. Its not a simple question to answer outright without getting shunned from every side because of closed minded people. Also, I didn't hear Mr. Wilson answer too many questions at all. I heard Rob answer and respond many questions.. Your point?
Ben Wade
Rob Bell didn't answer any questions, he dodged them. If anyone is going to question what is written in the bible they better have some evidence to support what they claim. Rob Bell's claims are based on feelings not on scripture. That is my point.
Don't get mad because you never got the answer you wanted.
Mene Tekel
When someone asks “when did you stop beating your wife?” Failure to answer is not dodging if you wont accept any answer but a date which admits your guilt.
Jesus constantly answered a question by asking a question right? Pointing to deeper truth to the pharisees . Interesting
Bell is a pro dodgeball player. It seems that he won't answer the question cause he's scared of how he'll be seen. If you're going to share your opinion, you have to stand by it no matter what it is.
The questions are posed as having yes or no answers. They don't. It is like asking someone if they think sex between people of the opposite sex is good. Or something that God cheers on. There is always both a yes and no answer. There are so many times that heterosexual sex is wrong. The bible lists many times when it is wrong. Sometimes it is wrong even within marriage. I don't think God cheers a husband raping his wife for example. Some people believe that sex inside marriage without the purpose of procreation is sin. The question of whether or not sex between members of the same sex is evil is not a simple yes or no question. Rob Bell is careful to qualify his answers.
no, the person who is asking the questions is bending the scenario around, they are not on the same wave length and therefore cannot give / receive a balanced and rational conclusion
@@Bayleu1 But the difference with homosexuality in the Bible is that is always wrong.
@@Bayleu1 like what Paul said about it? 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. (A)Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]homosexuals, nor [b]sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
@@jerryjamify
It says that...
As someone who repented for homosexual sin, it seems to me that both men fail to make a point about what active sin will do to a believer. Ultimately, we are to live a life in accordance with God’s timeless Word. Anything that less than that and we risk endangering our souls and the souls of others. If we believe that salvation is a gift and that God is holy and cannot endure sin (of any kind), then we have to accept that His Word set the terms for what constitutes sin. It may seem unfortunate to people like Rob Bell or even me at that matter, but we as fallible, sinful people cannot determine what God says is acceptable. Only His Word can do that.
Rob Bell is not just wrong, he seems pretty shifty. I suspect Rob Bell realises he is defending a weak position. Seen a lot of Andrew Wilson videos lately, and hats off to him, always excellent.
You seem bigoted.
I think Andrew does an amazing job of getting to the heart of the issue. "Are you saying this, or this?" we need more conversation that cuts through the rhetoric, and strawmen, and actually engages with the real issues.
@@michaelcartmell9484 I'm really curious as to what you mean when you call Andrew "a typical prejudiced Christian". Is it prejudicial to believe what the Bible says about homosexuality?
When people cant express theological exegesis, we then call people names.. it's so fleshly... sorry your comment was followed by a fleshly mindset
@@nildameers3772 I agree. There is great irony in the accusation of "prejudice" being followed by name calling. If prejudice is a "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience" than it stands to reason that anyone objecting to prejudice should be able to produce sound argumentation for their own point of view. What Michael Cartmell said was just emotional, non-rational name-calling, hardly a good place to hurl the accusation of being "prejudiced" from.
To Cartmell: produce a sound argument.
...
The silence speaks.
Yes, Andrew does an excellent job peeling back the onion at the end of the podcast and articulating "how you got here" reasoning. Rob appears to be caught flat footed at times during this conversation, offering very little value in the form of reasoning.
Andrew is awesome, RB flat footed, and no foundational truth
I want to be a guest on this show so the hosts can talk the whole time.
Notice the immediate dodge on whether homosexuality is a sin or not.
Rob Bell elevates his experience above the bible. "Doesn't God get to decide that?" Andrew asks. YES ROB HE DOES!
He’s interpreting the Bible as a season which is what we all do isn’t it
That idolatry and rebellion which is witchcraft when you put your belief above God
@@amberandrews7829 There are different ways of interpreting.
Exegesis is interpreting the Bible based on the words that are there and the context in which they are written.
Eisegesis is interpreting the Bible through different worldviews.
While you can do both, the only one that actually leads to answer the question "what does God say/think about 'X' issue?" is exegesis. Applying our modern worldview and sensibilities like Rob Bell is incapable of coming to any semblance of truth, because everything now comes down to interpretation.
We should only evaluate a culture's idea of morality through God's word, we should never evaluate God's word through a culture's idea of morality because God is unchanging. He's not going to suddenly change his mind about what is and isn't considered sinful.
In the Bible God has shown to work in people's lives and various cultures despite their sin, that does not mean he condones everything each of those people and cultures have done.
God does not equal Bible.
God is within everyone, and most people are unaware, and this Universal Intelligence is quite clear. This world abounds with variety, and we homosexuals are part of that variety.
Your Christian theology has deceived your better judgement. It's people like you who will be among the goats.
Rob Bell said, "Is there something that trumps whatever differences we have?" Yes, there is and Andrew Wlison made it very clear. Rob was not prepared to deal with the points Andrew made, so he appealed to people's compassions at the expense of clear exegesis.
Cardboard Box Church compassion is the heart of God
@@theresnohell3144 amen. Jesus would appeal to compassion
I don’t think that Rob wasn’t prepared it’s just how raw and untagged dialog should go. That’s what I like about this video
We have to really listen to what the Bible says. Sin big or small is sin. When you have conviction you know you need to change it!
Yes, compassion IS the heart of God, as demonstrated by Jesus, when He said to the adulterous woman “Neither do I condemn you - go, and Sin No More.”
It is true that the bible does not support homosexuality. It is mentioned in both the old and new testament. However, condemning comments about Rob isn't helpful. I think Andrew has done a great job pointing him to the right scriptures but with a spirit of gentleness and with sensitivity (like Jesus did) to where Rob is at. If you are concerned for Rob, don't condemn him, pray for him. This 'uber liberal' view of certain parts of scripture is common within our society. One that many people fall into. I think it's great that these two gentlemen have chosen to discuss this maturly. If we choose to do the same and not condemn people for where they are at currently, there is more chance of the said person receiving the word of God which we are sharing. Condeming a person only leads to more resistance and we are percieved to be arrogant.
If you have problems for religious/cultural reasons, this can set you free: “On Human Suffering and the Concept of God” - the psychological origin of religious beliefs.
neomodernistpoetry.blogspot.com/2018/11/on-human-suffering-and-concept-of-god.html
or homoeroticpoems.blogspot.com/2018/06/on-human-suffering-and-concept-of-god.html
The bible also supports slavery, do you accept the bibles teachings on that?
Wrong, Moses and Paul seem to have issues with it. That's 2% of Biblical Scripture.
Rob Bell has been the only person who has been able to make me think I might be able to be Christian. This dude is fascinating.
When you have no fear of God and his word, that is a dangerous place to be.
When you are ignorant and presume to know, that is the true danger.
Rob spoke wisely, and virtuously.
Are any of you praying for Rob Bell? Do you want to see him redeemed from his uncertainty? Do you love him like Christ loved you? If not, then don't assume that you won't be judged for not seeking after the one lost sheep like your Father does. Be ... Like... Christ. Christ didn't come to judge the world, He came to save it. How are you reflecting that example?
Yes indeed.
The difference is rob knows better And should be judged
We Christians need our own "It gets better" videos, showcasing how as believers we've struggled with sin and conquered it, or at least overcome it. If we ever think we're alone struggling with a sin, or that others have never gone through what we're going through, we can be certain there are believers all over the world who share our struggles, our victories, and even our defeats. No matter what you're dealing with in your life, please remember you're not alone. You have millions of brothers and sisters ready to support and love you, no matter what you're dealing with and no matter how unacceptable you feel you are. We're in this together!
Acts 17:28
‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
Far better to trust in God for our support and comfort .Proverbs 3.5-6
Homosexuality is NOT a sin. To say so is to misunderstand Scripture.
@@daodejing81 Do not lie, that is a sin, just like practicing homosexuality. I hope that my previous writing convicts you as you are completely wrong. "Then you would specifically have to deny that the Holy Spirit was leading the Apostles in truth and away from error and would continue to throughout the ages, John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." and you would have to go further with not only denying that promise of Christ but the words of St. John when it comes to the Holy Spirit teaching us, 1 John 2:27, "As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." You specifically would have to deny these since as we go on we know that the Holy Spirit came upon St. Paul and Jesus even specifically teaches on the sermons of the mount in Matt 5:18, "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." and to accept that things are different because culture has changed which seems to be the point of your argumentation you would once again have to deny St. Paul's teaching again on not conforming to the world in Romans 12:2, "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Saying that because we live in different times God has changed his mind on something He said was sin is changing God, it's literally stating a fact on God without saying anything about God. The thing that would be implied by such a conclusion would be "God was wrong or God isn't perfect" I would argue to the complete contrary and even go further and say that He, Jesus specifically put a Church on earth for the salvation of men that would be lead by His promises to St. Peter, in Matt 16:17-19, "And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” This would point to the Catholic Church, which has always followed the Biblical instructions unlike common Christians of today, and all the evidence points to the Catholic Church being the legitimate Church Jesus Christ put upon earth with not just Scripture but with history and physical miracles that cannot be explained by science today. Also to suggest that it is not immoral for a man to be with a man is contrary to everything I have put forward and what all the Ancient Churches have taught and never wavered on. This is what happens when we get people who don't follow the Church God specifically put on earth, we have to start rejecting the teachings of not only the Apostles but of Jesus and imply that God was wrong or not perfect. This is a deception of the devil, plain and simple. I have eyes to see and it is clear to me, it's clear to the Apostles and Jesus, and it's clear to His Church. Also you imply that nowhere in the New Testament doesn't teach Polyamory but I would argue it is implied especially since we do not see this in the early Church which if you follow the Scriptures they were lead by the Holy Spirit and still are today, how do I get this inference you may ask? In Gen 2:24, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Now we know that Adam only had Eve in the garden, God made it that way and I don't see how multiple people could become one flesh, it does not make sense and I would say Jesus implies this Himself in Matt 19:4-6, "He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”" Jesus was speaking on how God allowed them to do things the way there weren't supposed to be because of their hardness of hearts, it wasn't suppose to be that way it was suppose to be the way God originally made it, one man and one women come to be one flesh literally when they have children which is the commandment of God in Gen 1:28, "And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”" you cannot not fulfill this commandment and bring glory to God while in a man on man or women on women relationship, it is actually impossible for them to become one flesh the way God made it to be so it is in direct opposition to God and Jesus never refuted Lev 20:13, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." He actually affirms it in Matt 5:18 as I have already shown above. I can only agree to "Love God with all you are, love your neighbor as you love yourself." we are called to direct people out of sin and error those of us that are living in truth however with the Holy Spirit and from your implication it seems you have conformed to the world and "that's just the way things are" when in many different places it is condemned to "be a friend of the world" 1 John 2:15, "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." and in James 4:4, "You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." James 1:27, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." and the worst in my opinion for supporting this world view, 1 John 5:19, "We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." Do not conform to this world and the way the world wants things to be, it is of the devil as he has domain of the world which is another Biblical teaching but I think I have made my point quite clear that even purpose the rhetoric you have written is putting you at enmity with God and I hope you repent from it and actually accept the Holy Spirit and His teachings. My prayers go out for you."
@@daodejing81 We are not the ones who misunderstand Scripture, you are the one who is ignoring it when it is clear to see that God is perfect and did not change.
The Church and the Bible seemed to have been a bit odd on the question of slavery. A position which you could say has evolved. Many people are quite happy to dispense wisdom from a book until they encounter real life situations and bigger questions involving compassion become much more important . The book even says that . Love demands wisdom not quick answers . and I think this is pretty much where Rob Bell is coming from . Yes he hesitates and even prevaricates from time to time but remember the ones who end up being condemned by Jesus himself are those who demonstrated religious certainty when their their hearts were cold .
Love this comment!
+calum morrison The difference is that the Bible very clearly states that those who practice sexual immorality will not inherit the kingdom of God. The common argument among the pro gay "Christians" is to suggest that since the Bible is not clearly opposed to slavery which culturally we argue is sinful in itself, then we can reject the clear prohibition on sexual immorality.
Using this logic we can systematically ignore every sinful Biblical prohibition. Instead of picking up your cross (death to your former way of life) and following Jesus. We CAN say "Lord,Lord" and not do what He says! Abiding in Christ is simply rationalizing whatever sin we are currently engaged in and dismissing it by saying "surely this isn't as bad as slavery!"
+J.D. Elliott Friend, your post is good. I have just one critique. Please don't lump gays as Christians. Those who call themselves Christians and still live a sinful lifestyle (not denying the flesh) are 'not' saved. In other words, they are False Converts. We (true Believers) are warned over and over in The Bible, DO NOT BE DECEIVED! And clearly, these false converts are deceived. "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me" (Matthew 15:8)... To be 'truly' saved, one must be Born Again and do The Will of The FATHER. "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him" (1 John 2:5)... Again: "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matthew 12:50)... And again: "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5)... Friend, this is not aimed at you, I just get sick of so called Christians who have NO discernment! These people are not 'studying' The Bible as we are told to do (2 Timothy 2:15). And because of that, they will be destroyed (Hosea 4:6)! Woe to the 'false converts'!!! "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21)... Sorry for the rant.
+calum morrison There is 'no' oddness when it comes to slavery in The Bible. This is what The Bible says: "Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man does, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, you masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him" (Ephesians 6:8,9)... Again: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that you also have a Master in heaven" (Colossians 4:1)... Translation, masters are to 'treat' slaves fairly and not in a threatening manner. As you can see, this is far different from the satanic version that we see in the earth. And we also see from Scriptures that masters will be Judged by GOD for how they treated their servants. Also, The Bible is 'not' just a book! "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16)... Again: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4)... Translation, The Bible is the 'true' Christians instruction for 'pleasing' GOD and it's 'more' vital than food for a persons soul. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17)... Again: "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6)... So then, by reading and studying The Bible (once you become Born Again and filled with The HOLY GHOST), a 'true' Believer will have discernment and know a FALSE TEACHER (Rob Bell) when we hear them. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:20)... Don't be deceived. "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap" (Galatians 6:7)... "Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; prove your own selves. Know you not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are counterfeits?" (2 Corinthians 13:5)... Friend, you've been warned.
J.D. Elliott I get it. I just don't like the falsehood and the fake religious people who 'call' themselves Christians. But sadly, these are the times that we are living in. I truly feel for those who are deceived and going around deceiving others. Their end will be disastrous! To those who don't know GOD, we (true Believers) look ignorant and like bigots because we believe and follow what's written in The Bible. Again, it's sad because GOD'S Wrath is about to begin. And we know from Scriptures that it will be 'cruel'. "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it" (Isaiah 13:9)... Woe to the unsaved!
Didn't know Andrew Wilson till this video. This guy is sharp.
"this is how the world is." Wow! As if the world sets our standards.
UreaSmith You probably eat soon for food and mix fabrics shave your face what are you
The world is reality, but you choose fantasy.
But yet you eat BACON
@@bohofoto6929 Yeah, so?
I can show Rob specific scripture which definitively claims homosexuality to be an abomination to God. Can he show me scripture which says God is now ok with homosexuality?
Yeah I think the Bible is pretty clear that it is an abomination
I loved the courtesy and humility of both interviewees.
In light of those Bell leads astray with his faux confidence, I'll take theological accuracy over manners any day.
There is nothing (that anyone knows of) in the inspired Word of God that condemns any and all homosexual sex for any reason. All that is going on here is some people have been misusing verses that so obviously deal with things like gang rape, sex with angels, drug induced fertility orgies, pederasty, prostitution and idolatry, and claiming they have to do with homosexuality, in some attempt to justify their own personal issue/s. It's not as if this is something new, people have been doing things like this for as long as the Scriptures have existed.
Rob Bell keeps on using the phrase "That's how the world is". However, we're called to be in the world and not of, if memory serves me right.
It's not about what we think is right and its not about our preferences. If God says He doesn't like something, who cares what we think? If that drives people away from God, than thats unfortunate. God still desires to have a relationship with that person regardless of their sins, however, He's not going to change His laws because it's popular in the world. We as the church shouldn't water down truth in an effort to make more people comfortable in their lifestyle...Jesus didn't do that anyway. #truth
Jamar did you know that the bible also said that owning a slave is Ok, and that eating Shrimp is an abominating?
Here we go again with another contradiction-hunter. I suggest before you attempt to play the tired game of using my own religions book against me, I suggest you understand both content and context. A lot of commands given in the Old Testament were for the Jews specifically. In regards to slavery, the context plays a huge deal into the intricacies of each slave. Very different than the type of slavery imposed on my ancestors. There were several forms which essentially, at the core, we're akin to indentured servanthood. I recommend some research from credible sources.
Another point: it doesn't really matter what we think, if a person claims to be a follower of Christ. If God said we need to dye our hair pink every Saturday, so what? Even if j don't understand why, I'm always going to divert to trusting His way is best.
Jamar Dawson There are several passages in the New Testament that affirm slavery in context, did you know that in the past these verses were used in order to justify slavery and even fight a civil war. Do you agree with the context of these passages.
Amen! God's word is the same yesterday, today, and forever!
Jamar Dawson Amen. Oppose Bell. Oppose pseudo-marriage. Share the Gospel: www.viewtheStory.com/10895
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Feel the love here.
Reading these comments, I completely understand why major religion is in a steep decline.
It's true, but it's because people love their sin and the devil keeps persuading people that certain things aren't sins, when they are
Man you're right and Islam is inclining up because it will NEVER ALLOW EVIL TO BE RIGHT.
As a christian, it troubles me that so much discussion in christian culture focuses on sexuality, and next to none about violence and war,and poverty.
It's because Christianity is a cult.
So this is of great concern to me...what if Rob Bell is wrong? What if he is encouraging people to continue to engage in what is sinful to God? Will he not be held to account? Isn't it safer to remain in the confines of God's Word and what He has specifically stated? As a believer, I want to do those things that are pleasing to God and if what I am doing is not, I want to be challenged to die to myself to gain real life in Him.
Rob Bell is wrong and yes he will have to give an account for that.
Barb this Rob bell is what the bible calls a False teacher and is with OPRAH spreading a made up gospel . Read in the bible what happens to these false teachers. Its not good. Hes spreading Satan's messages not Gods.
Barb Spencer - we all have to give an account to God. I expect that when I die, I will be called to account and to repent for times when I showed too much grace and approval to my neighbor, and for times when I did not show near enough grace and approval to my neighbor. Rob Bell will have to do that. You will have to do that. We all will have to do that. Given all that I've seen and read and encountered in the church, I'm more dreading the times when I showed too little grace as opposed to too much.
Barb Spencer Yes, Barb, you have rightly spoken! Anybody ever read what Paul had to say in Romans 1? Of course, what did Paul know about anything?
Jim20 Oh brother....
I firmly believe that when we get to the gates of heaven Jesus will greet us and say, "you've done a pretty good job down there sharing my love, but you should have been SO MUCH MORE generous with my grace. Why weren't you more generous with telling people that I love them?"
We put God in such a small box that we can't even comprehend how God's love is so much grander and more beautiful than anything we can do here. We are not generous enough with God's love. I felt this interview showed that. Rob is on a whole other level than the other two. Rob understands that when we face Jesus after we die.....it won't be defending what we did, it will be hearing from Jesus that we were too stingy sharing His love. We are all too stingy sharing God's love. And watching the fight over homosexuality is proof of that. Stingy! I really dislike the God that the orthodox conservative Christians share. It looks nothing like the radical God Jesus showed us when He was here.
What does the radical God Jesus showed us look like?
You're right Rob Bell is on a whole other level. He is not a Christian.
@@johnhammons679 I think you like to dismiss anyone who doesn't believe like you. Have I missed your judgement or am I correct?
Listen, you don't get to judge whether someone is a Christian or not. As a matter of fact, Christianity is a religion that was created by men. The person of Jesus didn't come to create a new religion a new religion. Jesus explains this to Pharisees. He stated that he came to establish the God's Dominion on earth and to unite the people back with God. I'm paraphrasing, of course. For you to say that Rob Bell is not a Christian, accurately, I can say that you are very judgemental. Judging is a sin, just in case you didn't know that.
@@tommyclineweaver I dismiss anyone or anything that is diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches. And aren't you judging me by calling me judgemental? How is one united back to God?
No, God put God in that particular box. The "radical God" Jesus showed us when He was here is exactly the God who forbade same-sex sexual behavior and requires repentance. Jesus even said that not a jot nor a title would pass from the moral Law until He returned.
He also approved of intellectual honesty And He wouldn't recognize Himself in the Jesus you imagine.
One of the fundamental problems I have with what Rob Bell is saying is where he puts stock into what is most important. He basically says traditional Christian views on homosexuality is the reason so many people don't want to be a part of the church. The part he doesn't answer throughout this interview is whether he believes homosexuality is a sin as stated in scripture.
Here is are my one question for Rob Bell:
Mr. Bell you state that because a gay couple has been living happily together that this somehow makes the homosexual lifestyle OK. If a person were living as a Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion, would you stop preaching Acts 4:12 to make the church more inclusive to more people?
Hi Andrew, Comments were disabled on the " Who would believe a book of fairy tales " which I thoroughly enjoyed. I valued your scholarship and fine presentation. I do however feel the need to remind you of the Living Word`s power to communicate through the written word in a life changing way. This was my first experience of Jesus, when he spoke to me through a short passage. I followed on however, over the years, taught by people who had been taught by people who had been taught ad infinitum until I came to a point 40 years later where I could not reconcile what I had been taught, or probably more correctly how I had interpreted it, with the God I knew was there but didn`t seem to know and was even afraid of. As you have so rightly explained it is an encounter with Jesus himself in an intimate relationship that is the difference between having cerebral knowledge about God and knowing him personally as is now clear to me and is supported by John 17:3 and in my own experience by the encounters with him that I enjoy on a daily basis.
...everyone born of God overcomes the world. 1John
Amen!! 🙏
He begins by saying this is how the modern world.....this is a postmodern world and he is a huge product of that!
When Andrew asks do you think it's not-sinful for two men to have sex, it shows his own blind spot. Because Andrew would himself point out the question "Can a man and a woman have sex and it be sinful" is ...YES. So he leaves out the character that Bell points to which is rather conservative - monogamy, commitment, etc.
Rob says "This is why so many reject the church because they call into question orthodoxy" This issue with the statement is that he assumes many will come to Christ, this is not scripturally true. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it(Matt. 7:13). As Christians we need to remember the greatest commandment, to love the Lord your God with all your heart. He comes first and his ways are right!! Few will enter the kingdom because of mans greatest sin, PRIDE. If we cannot humble ourselves to give up our own desires, then we cannot love God and follow him.
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,
or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people--none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 9-10
Amen. Someone needs to slap him with that verse.
Praise God some people can actually read!
and judging others like u are brian? hmm....
Susan Malone That is a scripture from the New Covenant...it is not something I made up but rather it is The Word of God. are you going to accuse God of judging too?
Rob’s teachings have had a significant impact on me. Because of the great insight I know he possesses, it’s obvious to see here that he really doesn’t believe what he’s saying. It’s all in his face and tone. It seems he is trying to appease friends not in the room above Christ. I still love him and will continue to watch how his journey evolves.
Best comment!
If Rob doesn’t believe what he’s saying he shouldn’t say it. He’s just trying to take the path of least resentment and, in the process, he’s compromising the truth. He shows no commitment to the truth.
@@timmatteson3959how can you prove what truth is without citing your biases? Your truth is what you believe in, not what everyone must abide by.
@ellycd truth is truth. One's belief in it is irrelevant. Rob does not have "his truth". He has his opinion, which may or may not align with the teith.
It is destructive to the family structure and society. It is also destructive to themselves and their own physical health.
17:35 is the most poignant, yet said unintentionally, point that Rob Bell makes. People don't want to go to church if said people are confronted with Biblical truths. Just as it says, the dark does not want to be exposed by the light. It is not the job of the church to affirm sin and make its congregants more comfortable.
I’ve had these sort of conversations with people who come from a distinctly different views of how the Bible is interpreted and particularly understanding it within various worldviews. Particularly in my reasons for walking away from pastoring. And it’s hard to give definitive answers to people who understand and view these things in a different vein than I do. I don’t see Bell as skating around things or not giving solid answers. His answers are solid to me, but I also come from a similar area of thinking.
then with all due respect, thank God you stepped away from pastoring!
@@alisonhardman7600 sex is binary, feelings aren't. Feelings won't get you to Heaven, but giving your life to Jesus and following His Word will.
@@TMcConnaughhay yeah, I thank God for it daily.
Only one of them believes in interpreting the Bible. Rob Bell believes in ignoring whatever he doesn't like. The Bible is not ambivilent on this matter.
Rob Bell does an amazing way of answering the question and escaping the binary framing of the question: "is it sinful or not?" yes or no? For people saying Rob Bell can't asnwer the question he is not dodging it but trying to escape this frame and try to reframe the question to a more abstract level that needs to be clear first: "what is is sin?" Is it something as clear as we would like it to be (binary; yes/no) or can it be broader? It is like framing the world as black and white or to choose to embrace the compexity of color. If you are only used to black and white tv it is suddenly a whole new world when color tv comes along. The same thing can be asked about love, is there only love and not love or does love come in as many shapes and colors as the rainbow?
How do I get to see this whole debate? I went to the site listed but couldn't find the debate there.
The culture doesn't dictate the gospel. "Truth is Truth. Lies are Lies. God don't take no alibis. Right is Right. Wrong is Wrong. So, don't go messing where you don't belong."
Bell did not defended in a convincing way that others may have done better but Andrew is making a good point.
I think Andrew was being a bully.
@@lexic6081 He was trying to turn Rob away from conforming to the world and it's view on things, we are commanded to do that in the Bible. It is not bullying to warn someone to not run into a burning building, it is loving and caring on the contrary. The Scriptures are extremely clear when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. It is a sin and sin leads to hell, we are also called to turn our brothers and sisters towards that path of life and away from error, Andrew was being loving in reality even if it doesn't appear that way to you.
@yaksohd it is actually not clear because the word homosexuality wasn’t added until newer reiterations of the Bible during the 80s. There’s actual scriptural proof that shows that the original scripture never mentions the word homosexuality. So this whole argument is moot.
@@LYRC11 Then you really don’t know history mate, sorry to burst your bubble but the earliest Christians taught that homosexuality was a mortal sin, we know this by looking at their writings, and the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures from the 1st century. All the ancient Churches of Christianity held it as a mortal sin and still do, Judaism has held it as a mortal sin since Leviticus, literally asked a Rabbi how serious they take the verses in Lev, they don’t even allow men to sleep in the same bed together (Orthodox Jews truly observing Judaism) the first canonical Bible which all Christians recognized as the word of God comes from the Catholic Church in the year 382AD, the first English translation of the Bible comes from the Catholic Church in the 1500’s, guess what? They all said it was a sin that would send you to hell if you participated in it, this is coming from scholars of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew, do not try to argue history with me mate. I will humble you as I just displayed by your own lack of knowledge on this subject, your argument is moot and not historically accurate but my prayers are with you.
@@LYRC11 And don’t not try to claim that “that was gotten rid of with the New Covenant” then you are not literate on Scripture aspects separating ceremonial laws from moral laws. Moral laws are binding and permit, the ceremonial laws were gotten rid of/changed. “While the Old Testament’s ceremonial laws could be repealed, its moral laws that forbade intrinsic evils like murder or adultery are forever binding.” Jesus confirms this in Matt 5:18, “For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.” Jesus was speaking on moral laws as that’s what the whole Sermon on the Mount was about in hindsight. This would include the moral law of Levi. Just because progressive Christians want to fulfill their own lustful passions in this day and age does not mean God is okay with it or has ever been okay with it. Just how God isn’t okay with sexual relations outside of marriage, marriage is a covenant that can only take place between a man and a women as two men together or two females together cannot “come together and be made one flesh” this is referring to procreation. Two DNA’s form to create one New that has never existed but shares both species of mother and father. This cannot happen outside of a valid marriage. All Christians literally up until less than 70 years ago knew homosexuality was a sin as well, only in recent times have people started to “conform to the world” which goes against what the Bible tells us as we aren’t supposed to conform to the world we are supposed to take up our Cross and die to ourselves everyday. Your argument is just completely invalid when you actually understand history mate.
Rob at 16:32 really gives some wisdom here that the church needs to hear. Disunity is the scandal of the church, not disagreement on this particular issue. And again, why is it somehow okay to disagree on money, or the issues of mental health, and society, and so on, but not on this issue. There will always be disagreement within the church, but we must always work towards unity even within disagreement. We are, as Rob emphasises (but more so see Ephesians 4, and John 17) brothers and sisters and need to always hold onto that.
It doesn't matter the church (or 'religion')-- everyone of them has a chasm. Does not mean it's always about the issues you mentioned. There are other reasons ( differences in worship, beliefs) that causes splits within churches as well. The problem (over arching problem) is should homosexuals/lesbians be allowed to participate ( i.e allowed to be ordained as ministers, get married, etc.) within the church? The answer, according to the Bible is no. BUT does that mean we hate them or dis like them to the point where they are not welcome into our worship services? Does that mean we "kick them to the curb"? Mistreat them? Absolutely not. In my heart of hearts, I believe that is where the problem is.
When Andrew continuously puts words in Rob's mouth Iove the face he makes 19:35
The scandal of the church is that we can imagine that unity consists in accepting false teaching as of equal value with the clear teaching of Scripture. Such false unity is in fact nothing but division.
All of humanity is a tabernacle of Divine Presence, all! I agree with your sentiment.
@@daodejing81 What about Satanist? They were made to love God but they reject Him, and the Bible teaches us that those who make a practice of sinning are children of the devil not of God. So I have to partially disagree but will say that we should all try to be Tabernacles for God's presence
Man whenever anyone says "thats a longer discussion" I just think "why aren't the longer discussions anywhere on youtube? Give me a 5 hour discussion on this topic.
A few talks longer than 5 minutes: czcams.com/video/7l_BtCEzBpo/video.html
czcams.com/video/kr-ylf1Z_CY/video.html
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 covers this question of who are those excluded from inheriting the kingdom.
“This is how the world is.”
It’s demonic, yes
Rob Bell is of the world, and he’s proud of it.
What part of abomination does rob bel does not understand...??? A man who lays with a man like he does with a woman is an abomination onto the LORD.
MT/// That is what the bible says, and the bible is wrong.
There is a difference between wrong, and against what You believe or what to be true. Hope You find what You are looking for, but if You are in that path, Repent, and receive Jesus , and enjoy everlasting life, it is that easy. Jesus loves, but We also offend him by our actions, and homosexuality is one of those actions. May GOD Bless You, and show You the Way to salvation(I just mentioned it to You , hint , hint).
Sorry, but it is not so, and it is in the Bible, the Holy Word of GOD, It is a great error for You to challenge the Bible, because it does not conform to Your beliefs and actions. Can You understand why it is an abomination?? Because GOD Created Man and Woman to become one Flesh, and to further the kingdom o GOD, MAN and MAN or Woman and Woman can not procreate anything. Can You see the issue here??
MT/// Your faith is misplaced. That quagmire of truth and fiction you call 'the holy word of god' is absolutely not what you think it is. As bible scholar Bart Ehrman has concluded, the bible is full of contradiction. discrepancy and error, and IS NOT the Word of God.
You are really providing Your 2 cents about Your viewpoint in a Christian site, really??
Good luck with that, and with Your beliefs, but do not come to blaspheme GOD and Jesus Christ here...
Andrew's black and white interpretation of this issue is divisive alone. Not unlike other extreme literalists in the church.
Rob Bell clearly doesn't apprehend human nature or evil!
one guy uses the phrase "two guys having sex". the other guy uses the phrase "two guys in love". let the battle begin!!
Yes, the terms we choose to use betray our position on these topics; sometimes pejoratively. For example, I try not to use the term "gay" but to use the term "homosexual" which I think is more real, but it also betrays my position on the matter.
Andrew is ignorant. His head is swimming in knowledge, but he is utterly ignorant.
Rob Bell is so evasive and underhand ... Wriggling around like a serpent at every presentation of clear reality. The last kind of person I'd ever look to for sound teaching. Buyer beware!!
+Richard Fila (費睿哲) yeah? well, your fat....so there, I won the argument
+Richard Fila (費睿哲) It's the doctrine of demons. Only the devil can slide around the corners like that
+Richard Fila (費睿哲) We all have "off" days but this was my first exposure to Rob Bell and suffice it to say I'm not compelled to investigate him further. Also, the hair and the suit, Rob, the hair and the suit.
@@draft1643ooooh .. no need to go low and personal.
8 YEARS AGO!!!!
8 years! This is how old this video is! And why CZcams is pushing to me to listen something that old?!?
When the traffic lights go on red you don't think to yourself "Maybe this signal could be interpreted in more than one way, maybe it's safe to go through after all". When the apostle Paul said 'no' to homosexual practices he wasn't simply referring to it in the context of idolatry. He was saying no, don't do it, it's immoral, it's as simple as that.
I admire that you kept your cool Rob Bell. What an inspirational man.
Thank you for your strength & humility.
Although my little comment on youtube doesn’t matter :) grace & peace,
I agree Brooke I don’t understand the hate seen in these comments.
Wow!!!! Just answer the question Rob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+Jared Emery yeah man
He is. That's the point! The guy interrogating him wants a black and white answer, it is not a simple case of 'I believe Jesus is wrong, homosexuality is not sinful'. That's what he wanted rob to say, but robs way of thinking is so much more nuanced. He refuses to buy into the simplistic dogma you get so much in modern day Christianity, which leads to such simple thinking as 'you are gay, therefore you will go to hell'. People don't want to engage their minds and their souls to truly understand, they just want to have simple statements from which to judge and understand everything. But unfortunately, if you want that, you're restricting yourself so much. Listen to what rob is saying, rather than being defensive and agitated.
The man shouldn't have kept questioning him with the same question, because it showed he wasn't listening, and it showed he didnt have anything to reply with when rob made an interesting point.
+Natalie Di So what you are saying Natalie is that Rob's way of thinking is a much "higher way" of thinking than Andrew Wilson?
+One Who Knows Him Jesus spoke not a word about homosexuality. Andrew Wilson keeps trying to get Rob Bell to say that Jesus is wrong. But the truth is that Jesus never addressed this. I'm not sure how people who claim to be strict interpreters of scripture don't get that. This becomes such a central issue for conservative Christians, but Jesus says *nothing* about it. Tons about hypocrisy and loving your neighbor (all of them, including immigrants, poor people, women), but not a word about homosexuality.
OWKH/// You mentioned the Word of God as being Jesus. So it is no longer the bible?
“This is why so many people don’t want to be a part of the church.” YES ROB YES!!!!!!! A stance on an issue should not define faith in Jesus as Lord.
"Firm, absolute, truth that can be proven will be proven by those who prove it."
Rob Bell is quite a dancer, not answering simple, plain questions. Andrew Wilson does a much better job.
Andrew Wilson should just call him on that. The fact that Bell can't just give a clear answer, but that he has to dance around the question, reveals the truth. Bell doesn't want to explore the heart of the question because it scares him.
I disagree, I think Andrew asked him questions he has never heard before and did a great job. In this circumstance I feel like it's reasonable to not have a canned answer to give and to want to be careful with your words.
He was careful with his words alright. So careful in fact that he practically pled the 5th to avoid guilt, but he said enough to reveal that He denies Christ in truth and spirit.
It's because Rob Bell knows that it all comes down to HOW you interpret what you read. He explained that...What more can you say? Two people read one text and form two different opinions...What then do you do? Rob is open to what scriptures are saying and that's why he seems to take the stance that he does.
Hailee Wilkinson
WRONG. You can't take clear commandments and the way God created man and woman out of context PERIOD! You cannot interpret homosexuality, murder, adultery etc any other way then the concrete absolute truth that it is sin and wrong. You cannot compare prophecy which can be misinterpreted wrong, with absolute morals.There is such a thing as one way and one way only and if you refuse to see that, then you too have been deceived by seducing spirits and doctrines of demons who are the reason these things have more than one interpretation to begin with. Getting back to exposing lying spirits is how we get back to identifying the RIGHT interpretation.
Lol way to answer questions without answering them rob. he was skirting the question better than anyone else ive ever seen haha
Rob spoke wisely.
@@daodejing81Foolish.
Where is the rest of this interview? Was this on unbelievable?
When Paul wrote (1 Cor. 6:9) of the unrighteous not inheriting the kingdom of God, he included “homosexuals” in this short list, and he tells the church not to be deceived. How could the church be deceived? To believe that the homosexual can continue engaging in this unrighteous act and STILL inherit the kingdom of God. Paul goes on to write, “Such WERE some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” If homosexuality wasn’t a sin in Paul’s day, and isn’t a sin today, accord to Bell, then what were those ex-homosexuals washed of?
Everything Bell listed about homosexual relationships, i.e., They just don’t want to be alone, could surely be found among the relationships between men in Sodom and Gomorrah. God didn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah simply because they “pressed hard against Lot.” God had already pronounced judgment.
Those desiring to have their cake and eat it too, i.e., remaining in homosexual relationships while believing they’re saved, have flocked to preachers such as Bell-he’s made a TON of money at the cost of their salvation. One cannot live the resurrected life in Christ while dragging the old, unburied, carnal man around with him.
Witness of the community!! What about the witness of The Holy spirit
Oh wise one can you please give me some advice. I have accidentally inserted a large carrot into my rectum & I am now unable to remove it. Do you have any practical tips?
@@JohnSmith-ji6lu I had that problem too, but in my case it was a large strawberry. The doctor advised me to put some cream on it.
Men professing themselves to be wise became fools.
Love means repenting and changing your ways to align with Gods ways. The commandments aren’t there to change to fit whatever the modern culture is.
As someone who spent the majority of my career in the medical field, there is no such thing as "healthy" sodomy.
There are all types of medical issues that aren't talked about in culture - incontinence, fistulas, infections, etc. The simple fact is your rectum isn't designed to be penetrated. Some may think so because they get a pleasurable feeling. The obvious response to that is, "could you imagine a world where it didn't feel good to poop?"
This isn't just a problem for men, unfortunately. I actually had to fill out a death certificate on a woman who died of sepsis from a colovaginal fistula. If you don't know what that is, you can look it up. Fair warning - it's disgusting.
Remember what Jesus said. He who has never sinned shall cast the first stone. keep that in mind, people of the comments.
We are all sinners but we have repented and they dont want to repent and change their sinful ways
@@eduardoguerrero2791 it’s not a mf choice. :/
@@pickle248 any action is a choice. I'm not talking about attraction or temptation. I'm talking about the decision to participate in an action that the Bible says is sinful. In the same passage you quoted above, Jesus ALSO says "Go and sin no more." The adulterous woman made a choice and Jesus called it sin. He did not condemn her, but He told her to stop doing it.
@@robknight8144 so gay people are supposed to live in unhappiness all their life to serve an evil god? ok
@@robknight8144 The Bible doesn't say it's sinful. And adultery is very different from homosexuality, especially now that gay people are allowed to marry the people they love.
" A lot of problems with Jesus's understanding of Leviticus.. ... ..." hmmm. Rob really knows how to cross the line.
Rob Bell thinks he understands Leviticus better than Jesus does, lol. Oh, the raw narcissism on display.
Jesus has no mention about homosexuality.
No one can read the Bible without cultural prejudice and not know that all sexual sin is wrong, but especially the sin of homosexuality. Romans 1 is an entire chapter explaining how someone becomes a homosexual and the penalty. Help the Hurting by helping people come out of the darkness of homosexuality into the light of natural affection. Anyone who says, "Homosexuality is love," hates homosexuals and others with sexual dysphoria.
In the end times there will be false teachers who will speak to the sinful nature of evil men. You will answer to the anger of God for your false teaching and leading people away from God.
Listening to Rob Bell NOT answering questions is very frustrating.
God's word never changes, just because the world view changes to suit modern times. You are being deceived
Amen.
I disagree. God's word is constantly being adapted and reinterpreted as society progresses. If it wasn't, we'd still be performing human sacrifices.
@@joshuakohlmann9731 Gods word does not evolve, it still means what it meant when it was written years ago.... if I leave a letter to my unborn children that says “I used to drive a red truck” no one can say what I meant was actually a blue car, even if In the year 2500 red means blue and car means truck, the language changed but what I meant when I wrote the letter can’t change.....
Amen x2
@@tommygrinie8904 What people understand to be “ drive” and “truck” 2000 years could be drastically different from what you intend those words to mean today. Additional study of the 20th and 21st century would be required for a better understanding.
Isn’t there obvious validation of polygamist families in the Bible while there are NO affirmed homosexual covenants? Why would Rob Bell speak against the one structure which is validated in Scripture while supporting the one obviously condemned?
If he (RB) supports gay marriage, then why not support polygyny?
~ These are [mostly] rhetorical questions.
One of these men wants to know what God wants for us, and obey it. The other man wants to affirm how people feel. God help us.
This might be the most cowardly attempt to defend his position that I have seen from Rob Bell. If you are going to defend yourself, then defend yourself....with evidence. In which he did not. Andrew provided his fallacy of begging the questions and he ignores it. I wish Rob Bell would use scripture and history to defend this if he is going to.
Lee, its simple. Its because there is no scripture found in the Bible that he could've used to defend himself. Period.
He asked if it was sinful, answer the question
It's tragic watching someone drown in real time
Wow. What a sticking point. I will say I think one of the reasons it is a sticking point is not just because traditionalists believe it is a sin, but also because liberals don't think it is. Rob wants to make it just about the other side's refusal to accept homosexuality as not being sinful and therefore should be freely accepted, but this is just as much about the liberal side being stubborn on their own position. I don't think there is an argument in, "Why can't you just see it my way? You keep pushing people away." I think it does push people away, but Jesus, the disciples and the apostles didn't always say sentimental things that were always easy to accept. They sometimes said things that seemed brutal and hard to accept. We can't just base truth on feels.
Thumbs up brotha andrew
Paul should be allowed to speak for himself. Here he is: "26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." Romans chapter 1. Rob Bell is a bad joke.
Matthew Oakley yeah because Paul spoke English 😂😂😂
Jay Kutcher uhm, those are words translated in english sherlock.....
The passage you quoted refers to heterosexual people who abandon their opposite-gender relationships for same-sex prostitutes. It has no bearing on homosexuality. Have anything relevant?
Oh gosh.eyeroll.read the text according to the context!
The idea that Paul "said" something that was translated from its original language 2000 years ago and it's survived being printed by hand for distribution until the mid fourteen hundreds with the advent of the printing press-- never mind the endless translations and edits by men who were all as insecure about gay people as you are-- to believe what you are reading now is what he actually said is absolute insanity. The bible was compiled 80 to 500 years after the events took place. People get misquoted NOW with cameras and voice recorders. Have an ounce of historic empathy and maybe an ounce of humility.
Was there an answer from Rob Bell right at the end that didn’t get aired? He said ‘that was well said’ or something. And then the interview ends. I agree more with RB on this. But the guy who had the last statement/question in the interview summarised a very important point that liberals need to address. Where can I find robe bells reply?
Leave it to the Brits to make Rob Bell uncomfortable. Bell seems to be totally compromising to appeal to what he wants. Andrew's best analogy was the Israelites offering sacrifices to Baal and still saying they were worshipping Yahweh.
As a conservative Christian pastor I studied this issue with a gay friend. I told him the Bible was CLEAR and there really was NO question. After an honest and deep study I discovered that the Scriptures are not nearly as clear as I had presumed. Until you have spent many hours in prayer and study I think it prudent to withhold judgment. Reading the best books from both sides is necessary to really understand the issue. I now am uncertain but my uncertainty comes from a desire to please God and to be honest in knowing that I do not know. Both sides are unhappy with me but I can only believe what my conscience insists on. The evidence is NOT clearly convincing from either side though it seems to be somewhat weighted on the traditional side.
I read Genesis and i see God created woman for man and gave a clear example of the institution of marriage (infact when discussing marriage Jesus referred to this and spoke of marriage as between one man and one woman)
It's doesn't take an expert to realise God designed the male and female sexual/reproductive organs for each other.
So when did every other sexual desire come into the human race? Well obviously when sin entered in after the fall and human sexuality became damaged. If we accept same sex practices must be acceptable because people desire them then we must conclude every other desire & lust people have outside of the one man one woman design in the Garden before sin must now also be ok.
You say we shouldn't speak about these issues. I disagree. When i see the Bible under attack and Christian brothers & sisters dragged to court for standing up for God's word then i think it's time to speak up!!
Remember John the Baptist lost his life for speaking out against sexual immorality in his day.
Thank you for being honest. That's how I feel to
Nuce that you guys feel a certain way but the real issue is your defense of how you interpret the Bible. 1 man 1 woman you say?
Wellwhat if some say NO to that? In your view that is a NO to God and thus a sin. Well houston we have a problem, father Abraham, king David. Didn't they read Scripture! Of couse the Law came after Abraham but Abraham came after Genesis. So this cannot be used as an exclusive model otherwise the father of your faith lived in perpetual sin as well as David, remember the guy that had a heart after God. So as you grow in your interpretive exposure and maturity you may become less dogmatic and might even feel differently.
Crapp accidentally hit report spam sorry folks
+Ken Landry, You said, "I can only believe what my conscience insists on" or rather shouldn't you only believe what the Bible says because as a pastor and as a christian, the Bible is the foundation of our faith and all that we believe in.
“For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
James 2:10 NKJV
Indeed. Good to remind hypocrites and bigots of that. Well done!
And the debate and confusion goes on
This is a head shaker.
Andrew appears to want to reduce same gender relationships to the sexual act alone and by so doing diminish such relationships to lustful, carnal expressions only rather than the coming together of two beloved children of God in deep love of one and other.
@ngerstner753 Firstly, Jesus never made any such reference, and secondly, it is not wise for us humans to speak on behalf of God.
@ngerstner753 "Men can be good friends." Men can also be good lovers.
"The problem comes in when there is lust or sex acts involved." What is the problem?
@ngerstner753 "He (God) created man and woman for each other to be fruitful and multiply." And they have done that to the point of over population. God also created diversity in all it's myriad forms and expressions.
@ngerstner753 You presume I have not. How audacious and condescending of you. For your reference I happen to be a 61 year old reverend.
If you really loved these people, Rob, you’d tell them the truth, which could save the from Hell.
So if two men are married to each other but still profess their faith in Christ they go to hell (because in your opinion it’s a sin)? However, whatever sin you commit is forgivable?
@@evonsparrow its not her opinion that its a sin its in scripture and it is a sin.
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be decieved : Neither the sexually immoral nor idiolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inheret the kingdom of God
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
@@evonsparrow in order for your sin to be forgiveable you must repent ask for forgiveness and stop sinning .
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you between you and your God.and your sins have hid his face from you that he will not hear you.
@@evonsparrow Proverbs 28:9
He thats turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayers shall be abomination
@@eduardoguerrero2791 Jesus was a gay man is obvious.
Somehow I felt the urge not to switch off this interview
Romans 1 says something different and yes, Paul wrote it! Its still homosexual relations whether or not two guys are legally married or not!