Erwin Cook, classical studies professor, discusses "The Contemporary Relevance of the Iliad" at the fifth installment of the 2013 Food for Thought Luncheon-Lecture Series.
I have not found a better description of the contemporary relevance of the great Homeric epics. As a psych major and student of the classics, I find this lecture fascinating.
You mentioned fifth grade and gangs. I had a coat in grade school that in some way was armor. My mother betrayed me, though it was years before I learned of the betrayal. She apparently was threatened by the coat and disappeared it. I had to be very tough in grade school and high school. I fought many fights. Your discussion feels very relevant to me. At seventy three years! Amazing!
Thank you for this. I met and spoke to Tyler Boudreaux when he came through Missoula. Subsequently he was a speaker at the Truth Commission on Conscience in War
Loved it. What I think it all boils down to is our unchanging human nature. Human nature remains the constant. Cars, cell phones and changing cultural fads will not alter it. It is a part of our biology. Achilles love for Patroculos can be seen in the love veterans, and yes even gang members have for each other. As someone who grew up a street kid I can understand Achilles rage at having lost his friend. The fight over women. The for status within the group. Makes sense to me. We will never change. War and conflict, as the Greeks said is the father of us all!
Grecian literature. The west has nothing to be proud of if you take away Greek philosophy and Grecian classics. Appropriation is the only thing the west can do.
@@voyager6576 I wish we could stop making great works of art a zero sum game of "Western" vs "Eastern" or African or Indigenous American etc etc. Each culture provides many treasures we can enjoy and that bring us knowledge and insight into the human condition. I can enjoy the Homeric epics, the operas of Mozart and the plays of Shakespeare, but also the art of China and the poetry of Rumi, or the music of Africa and the story telling of Indigenous Americans, without keeping score of which cultural heritage they originate from. They all originate from the human condition, and as such they all belong to humanity. My friend used to teach different dance traditions from all over the world to high school students. She used to say that every dancer has a village, a dance tradition that speaks to them and they excel at. From what she described, the genetic heritage of the student was irrelevant. Her best Scottish dancer was a Japanese student.
@@voyager6576 Grow up. Like medicine, antibiotics, hot and cold running water, flush toilettes, books, printing, climate controlled homes, movies, science, cars, modern ships and planes, modern science, etc., etc. ? What an ignorant comment. Most of the products developed for the betterment of mankind originated in Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Ancient Rome, Western Europe and North America with contributions from China, India and Japan.
The works of the great poet, Homer, are filled with words that not only survive in Albanian, but continue to be used. From Homer you can get not only words, but also phrases that possess all the signs of a typical Albanian expression. If someone were to interpret Homer from the Albanian language perspective, much light would be shed on the works of that famous poet. Between Homeric and Albanian sentences there is a striking resemblance in expression, phraseology and sentence structure. A study of this nature would help interpret Homer, since the Albanian language is older than that of Greece (Science Magazine 2023), much can be learned about the influence of this [Albanian] on Homeric and later Greek. Title: Unconquerable Albania Author : Christ Anton Lepon Publisher: Chicago, Albanian Liberation Committee, 1944
A very interesting application of contemporary observations on gang behaviour (and code of honour) and studies of PTSD to the behaviour of Achilles in The Iliad.
Truly motivating content; reminiscent of a book that inspired with its profound themes. "The Art of Meaningful Relationships in the 21st Century" by Leo Flint
Having watched this video I am starting to understand the awesome greatness of the Iliad. Having read some of the comments I now really appreciate the term "pearls before swine".
Metaphor- "a word or phrase or even a whole book of words, applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable"? Maybe, war is being used by Homer as a metaphor for the " forces of nature" perhaps, the law of attraction, between the natural and supernatural worlds? Someone said that the Iliad is similar to the Bible in that both books use esoteric language to tell their stories. It is told allegorically, because the interpretations are multi layered.
Excellent, interesting lecture on the Iliad, explained in an accessible way. I also note the smart ass "criticisms" from the high brow chimpanzee graduates from Piss Creek University. Obviously, their college education was worth every cent - just push the big red button for a grape!
He says we can't look at the relationship between Patroclus and Achilles through our cultural lens and therefore shouldn't homosexualize it. And then he turns into a pseudo-sociologist describing the code of the street. As if this white, intellectual classicist has any actual understanding of gang life. His argument is very artifical.
a pity that he cant use normal wars as an modern allegory for the argives and the trojans. using inner-city gangs instead. only difference is that modern national wars are riddled with good vs evil propoganda
The only problem I have with this video is that there’s not enough people hitting their plates with their metal eating utensils. When I watch a lecture, I don’t want intelligent and educated people being kind and thoughtful as they eat their food-that’s easy. I want poorly educated fat people banging their plates with their forks and knives during the lecture. That way, we don’t have to listen to all the dumb words about the topic at hand and instead we can hear the clanging of metal on porcelain.
yes, yes. Modern gangs and their members are violent, short fused and trigger happy because their coat of arms is respect, because they are social outcasts and because . Nothing is due to their "thriving" in nihilism, or any sort of causal links which would explain why the IQ of urban american gang members is similar to the IQ of african tribe members. That these two groups behave very similar is purely accidental. As Hume once said: There cannot be any necessary connexion between two distinct things! And now, stop noticing and let me proceed with my fashionable sociological explanations. After all, social and econmoic factors made me do it! Have a nice day reading the Iliad.
Greeks: Write the Michael Bay version of their own pillage, looting and warmongering... (Few centuries later) Western Civilization: The Iliad is a classic!!!
The Ancient Greeks were not PTSD kind of guys. They would not care for Wounded Warrior Projects, GI Bills, or a VA. There was a season for war every year and you went. It has less relevance to today’s culture than fighting duels, which was so widespread in this nation just 200 years ago it had to be outlawed and even then men still fought them to the death, former President Andrew Jackson a shining example. Lincoln was set to fight one too, his opponent backed out.
EDWARD RICHARDSON Unless psychological distress after trauma is a new human trait, that’s simply untrue. Given how slow humans evolve, and the evolutionary utility of characteristic like PTSD for discouraging an individual from engaging in dangerous activity, I personally don’t think they were as different as you might think. Culture wise, of course, literary a different world. But PTSD is not a cultured response, it’s biological.
Yeah, I would have rolled my eyes with Edward a few years ago, but now I have to agree with Chuck. I have always been psychologically cool and emphatically never "stressed." It is true that I worked in positions that are "stressful," and my body was marinating in stress hormones for years. I was aware of that gut twisting feeling, but it was meaningless to me as a negative sensation--I even embraced it. When I came down with a horrific case of generalized anxiety disorder, I visited 5 doctors and 3 cardiologists before anyone could diagnose it, because I am not psychologically anxious--you could say I am culturally impervious to that. But...the diagnosis was correct. It was a biological reaction to all the stress chemicals. Entirely by chance, I listened to this lecture both before and after my little experience...I did not appreciate it the first time, thinking that the PTSD connection was a bridge too far into ivory tower hogwash. This second time, I felt as though I had really learned something.
Introducing ptsd in the conversation is ridiculous since it occurs only in our modern view that horrible things should not happen and that life should be good for everyone.
If anything this should be viewed as an anti-war lecture. I see some of the parallels drawn with regards to honor in the gang world, but to compare an epic that features a pantheon and spoils of victory to a marginalized group of men seizing power in an otherwise emasculated environment is irresponsible and too quaint for my taste. I would have preferred a.. Wait for it.. Sports analogy. I applaud the Doctor for his commitment and clear position. The relevance to me is more in the battle of ego and the degradation of women. Say what you will about goddesses, but the written text (man's pen) began cutting down their presence as our western civilization began the journey.. Something in modern times should alert us to the common threads in the story of war and perhaps we can finally walk away with the only real spoil.. And that is its extinction.
the iliad is not at all a proto-feminist text, dont pretend it was ever intended for that purpose. Also war in the Iliad is portrayed as both glorious and horrific, an almost natural occurrence which is testament to none other than the nature of man, its neither good nor bad simply a mechanism for change in the Iliad (for better or worse). The poet cannot seek to be "anti-war", because they lived in a naturally warring and violent society (all wounds described in the Iliad are realistic and modelled off reality). Rather the poet shows us that seeing the humanity in ones enemy, offering mercy or refraining from the over-extension of "justice" helps us to halt the feeling of isolation in life (Achilles anger ends in book 24 because himself and Priam find solace in one-anothers grief, a mutual understanding of pain, not because of the 12-day truce). As the lecturer notes, "war" in a modern society can take the form of capitalism or mundane dispute, to separate war from disagreement/competition would be a mistake; the Iliad's theme is the "anger" of Achilles, war just happened to be an ordinary manifestation of such an emotion at the time.
To the nit pickers that criticize the lecturers technique I say so what ! That is a petty small minded concern! Shut down your shrill carping inner voice and try to learn something!
Milquetoast discusses great deeds by men who lived in circumstances minus our modern comforts and compares them to “the inner city” where the inhabitants have benefited from the largesse of a duped, well meaning, middle class.
That’s the traditional method of delivering “useful” talks where every sentence is carefully thought out. We’ve become so used to theatrics that we fail to appreciate a good, real good method of delivering a talk!
Ugh. The application to inner-city gangs and PTSD-ridden Vietnam vets is tiresome and strained. The Iliad is some 3000 years old. Human cosmology, metaphysics, and self-concepts then were so different as to be applicable only at a deeper level not accessible within the analogies selected.
Nice ideaa but it's a shame he just reads it. I can do that. Late fifties academic thinks its cool to say he's wearing sandals "in a spirit of rebellion". Why do I want to yawn?
The classics are like safe harbors in a raging sea of meaninglessness.
I have not found a better description of the contemporary relevance of the great Homeric epics. As a psych major and student of the classics, I find this lecture fascinating.
You mentioned fifth grade and gangs. I had a coat in grade school that in some way was armor. My mother betrayed me, though it was years before I learned of the betrayal. She apparently was threatened by the coat and disappeared it. I had to be very tough in grade school and high school. I fought many fights. Your discussion feels very relevant to me. At seventy three years! Amazing!
I love these sort of videos. So much more intellectually satisfying than what's on TV.
Thanks for uploading.
So true Civille7
Brilliant and useful. Gracias, Dr. Cook!
Thank you for this. I met and spoke to Tyler Boudreaux when he came through Missoula. Subsequently he was a speaker at the Truth Commission on Conscience in War
Loved it. What I think it all boils down to is our unchanging human nature. Human nature remains the constant. Cars, cell phones and changing cultural fads will not alter it. It is a part of our biology. Achilles love for Patroculos can be seen in the love veterans, and yes even gang members have for each other. As someone who grew up a street kid I can understand Achilles rage at having lost his friend. The fight over women. The for status within the group. Makes sense to me. We will never change. War and conflict, as the Greeks said is the father of us all!
A brief but excellent commentary on "The Iliad." It is truly the great work of Western literature.
Grecian literature. The west has nothing to be proud of if you take away Greek philosophy and Grecian classics. Appropriation is the only thing the west can do.
@@voyager6576 I wish we could stop making great works of art a zero sum game of "Western" vs "Eastern" or African or Indigenous American etc etc.
Each culture provides many treasures we can enjoy and that bring us knowledge and insight into the human condition.
I can enjoy the Homeric epics, the operas of Mozart and the plays of Shakespeare, but also the art of China and the poetry of Rumi, or the music of Africa and the story telling of Indigenous Americans, without keeping score of which cultural heritage they originate from. They all originate from the human condition, and as such they all belong to humanity.
My friend used to teach different dance traditions from all over the world to high school students. She used to say that every dancer has a village, a dance tradition that speaks to them and they excel at. From what she described, the genetic heritage of the student was irrelevant. Her best Scottish dancer was a Japanese student.
@@voyager6576 Grow up. Like medicine, antibiotics, hot and cold running water, flush toilettes, books, printing, climate controlled homes, movies, science, cars, modern ships and planes, modern science, etc., etc. ? What an ignorant comment.
Most of the products developed for the betterment of mankind originated in Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Ancient Rome, Western Europe and North America with contributions from China, India and Japan.
@@voyager6576 you're an idiot
Wow wow wow.this is the best piece of education i have recieved.can you please upload more such lectures.
Wow, brilliant lecture. Thanks for this. The comparison between the street code vs the Iliad code.
Really amazing lecture. Great synthesis of the psychological and myth.
Such insightful content within the speech. Thanks for uploading
The works of the great poet, Homer, are filled with words that not only survive in Albanian, but continue to be used. From Homer you can get not only words, but also phrases that possess all the signs of a typical Albanian expression. If someone were to interpret Homer from the Albanian language perspective, much light would be shed on the works of that famous poet. Between Homeric and Albanian sentences there is a striking resemblance in expression, phraseology and sentence structure. A study of this nature would help interpret Homer, since the Albanian language is older than that of Greece (Science Magazine 2023), much can be learned about the influence of this [Albanian] on Homeric and later Greek.
Title: Unconquerable Albania
Author : Christ Anton Lepon
Publisher: Chicago, Albanian Liberation Committee, 1944
" Η Ιλιάδα του Ομήρου είναι η Βίβλος για όλους τους ανθρώπους του κόσμου που πεινούν τον Διαφωτισμό! " Νικόλαος Ευάγγελος Αναγνωστόπουλος
Maybe true for poetic enlightenment but The Holy Quran is where you should be looking for, if you seek enlightenment with regards to life itself!
A very interesting application of contemporary observations on gang behaviour (and code of honour) and studies of PTSD to the behaviour of Achilles in The Iliad.
Excellent lecture.
Thank you!
This is Will Ferrell's greatest lecture.
🤣🤣🤣
This lecture is quite great
Thank you Prof for a wonderful lecture.
Great explanation
More like this, omg everything should be this good
Talk begins 3:05
next time can you link the handout as well thank you it was great!
26:15 I’ve always had the odyssey was about PTSD, the journey home to oneself before all of that nasty stuff that happened during the war
What an excellent lecture! More, more!
I am also remembering Farewell Darkness by Ron Zaczek. I was actually able to connect with Ron. We exchanged emails for perhaps six months.
Lecture starts @ 2:58
Truly motivating content; reminiscent of a book that inspired with its profound themes. "The Art of Meaningful Relationships in the 21st Century" by Leo Flint
Having watched this video I am starting to understand the awesome greatness of the Iliad.
Having read some of the comments I now really appreciate the term "pearls before swine".
Loved this.
Bruv's got it right.
Long Live the Ancient Dreams!
Which translation is he using?
amazing, current meaning invoked without forcing some bs such as
He comes out at 3:11
Dan Simmons guided me here
Metaphor- "a word or phrase or even a whole book of words, applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable"? Maybe, war is being used by Homer as a metaphor for the " forces of nature" perhaps, the law of attraction, between the natural and supernatural worlds? Someone said that the Iliad is similar to the Bible in that both books use esoteric language to tell their stories. It is told allegorically, because the interpretations are multi layered.
Agamemnon and Achilles… What happens when hubris takes over
intro lady has those crazy eyes
4:14
Can someone summarize this with points?
Sure, here you go:
Point 1
Point 2
Point 3
Anything else?
33:47
You introduce the introducer of the speaker?! 🤭
Excellent, interesting lecture on the Iliad, explained in an accessible way. I also note the smart ass "criticisms" from the high brow chimpanzee graduates from Piss Creek University. Obviously, their college education was worth every cent - just push the big red button for a grape!
eh yo fr fr fam. we wuz trojans n sheet
He says we can't look at the relationship between Patroclus and Achilles through our cultural lens and therefore shouldn't homosexualize it. And then he turns into a pseudo-sociologist describing the code of the street. As if this white, intellectual classicist has any actual understanding of gang life. His argument is very artifical.
Must be difficult subject when people are eating and talking throughout. Less ephedrine perhaps
a pity that he cant use normal wars as an modern allegory for the argives and the trojans. using inner-city gangs instead. only difference is that modern national wars are riddled with good vs evil propoganda
They did, it's called The Wire
The only problem I have with this video is that there’s not enough people hitting their plates with their metal eating utensils. When I watch a lecture, I don’t want intelligent and educated people being kind and thoughtful as they eat their food-that’s easy. I want poorly educated fat people banging their plates with their forks and knives during the lecture. That way, we don’t have to listen to all the dumb words about the topic at hand and instead we can hear the clanging of metal on porcelain.
Hip hop is contemporary epic poetry, then.
yes, yes. Modern gangs and their members are violent, short fused and trigger happy because their coat of arms is respect, because they are social outcasts and because .
Nothing is due to their "thriving" in nihilism, or any sort of causal links which would explain why the IQ of urban american gang members is similar to the IQ of african tribe members. That these two groups behave very similar is purely accidental. As Hume once said: There cannot be any necessary connexion between two distinct things! And now, stop noticing and let me proceed with my fashionable sociological explanations. After all, social and econmoic factors made me do it! Have a nice day reading the Iliad.
Greeks: Write the Michael Bay version of their own pillage, looting and warmongering...
(Few centuries later)
Western Civilization: The Iliad is a classic!!!
Read the Iliad again - it’s much more than an action flick. It really touches on profound themes, not to mention the prose is beautiful.
The Ancient Greeks were not PTSD kind of guys. They would not care for Wounded Warrior Projects, GI Bills, or a VA. There was a season for war every year and you went. It has less relevance to today’s culture than fighting duels, which was so widespread in this nation just 200 years ago it had to be outlawed and even then men still fought them to the death, former President Andrew Jackson a shining example. Lincoln was set to fight one too, his opponent backed out.
EDWARD RICHARDSON Unless psychological distress after trauma is a new human trait, that’s simply untrue. Given how slow humans evolve, and the evolutionary utility of characteristic like PTSD for discouraging an individual from engaging in dangerous activity, I personally don’t think they were as different as you might think. Culture wise, of course, literary a different world. But PTSD is not a cultured response, it’s biological.
Yeah, I would have rolled my eyes with Edward a few years ago, but now I have to agree with Chuck. I have always been psychologically cool and emphatically never "stressed." It is true that I worked in positions that are "stressful," and my body was marinating in stress hormones for years. I was aware of that gut twisting feeling, but it was meaningless to me as a negative sensation--I even embraced it. When I came down with a horrific case of generalized anxiety disorder, I visited 5 doctors and 3 cardiologists before anyone could diagnose it, because I am not psychologically anxious--you could say I am culturally impervious to that. But...the diagnosis was correct. It was a biological reaction to all the stress chemicals. Entirely by chance, I listened to this lecture both before and after my little experience...I did not appreciate it the first time, thinking that the PTSD connection was a bridge too far into ivory tower hogwash. This second time, I felt as though I had really learned something.
25:17 ?
Introducing ptsd in the conversation is ridiculous since it occurs only in our modern view that horrible things should not happen and that life should be good for everyone.
If anything this should be viewed as an anti-war lecture. I see some of the parallels drawn with regards to honor in the gang world, but to compare an epic that features a pantheon and spoils of victory to a marginalized group of men seizing power in an otherwise emasculated environment is irresponsible and too quaint for my taste. I would have preferred a.. Wait for it.. Sports analogy. I applaud the Doctor for his commitment and clear position. The relevance to me is more in the battle of ego and the degradation of women. Say what you will about goddesses, but the written text (man's pen) began cutting down their presence as our western civilization began the journey.. Something in modern times should alert us to the common threads in the story of war and perhaps we can finally walk away with the only real spoil.. And that is its extinction.
the iliad is not at all a proto-feminist text, dont pretend it was ever intended for that purpose. Also war in the Iliad is portrayed as both glorious and horrific, an almost natural occurrence which is testament to none other than the nature of man, its neither good nor bad simply a mechanism for change in the Iliad (for better or worse). The poet cannot seek to be "anti-war", because they lived in a naturally warring and violent society (all wounds described in the Iliad are realistic and modelled off reality). Rather the poet shows us that seeing the humanity in ones enemy, offering mercy or refraining from the over-extension of "justice" helps us to halt the feeling of isolation in life (Achilles anger ends in book 24 because himself and Priam find solace in one-anothers grief, a mutual understanding of pain, not because of the 12-day truce). As the lecturer notes, "war" in a modern society can take the form of capitalism or mundane dispute, to separate war from disagreement/competition would be a mistake; the Iliad's theme is the "anger" of Achilles, war just happened to be an ordinary manifestation of such an emotion at the time.
To the nit pickers that criticize the lecturers technique I say so what ! That is a petty small minded concern! Shut down your shrill carping inner voice and try to learn something!
Could've done anything other than just reading. I know how to read.
Milquetoast discusses great deeds by men who lived in circumstances minus our modern comforts and compares them to “the inner city” where the inhabitants have benefited from the largesse of a duped, well meaning, middle class.
Why didn't he just hand out his "speech" we could read it at home.
If you are going to give a speech.. don't just read from your documents... geez this is horrible.
+H98342mfan asdf9892nmd Amen. I'm here for insight not theatrics.
That’s the traditional method of delivering “useful” talks where every sentence is carefully thought out. We’ve become so used to theatrics that we fail to appreciate a good, real good method of delivering a talk!
Ugh. The application to inner-city gangs and PTSD-ridden Vietnam vets is tiresome and strained. The Iliad is some 3000 years old. Human cosmology, metaphysics, and self-concepts then were so different as to be applicable only at a deeper level not accessible within the analogies selected.
Open your mind
@@OmgAuntySuzanne16 with a name like Prometheusrex too
not a good speaker... reading a script?!
Nice ideaa but it's a shame he just reads it. I can do that. Late fifties academic thinks its cool to say he's wearing sandals "in a spirit of rebellion". Why do I want to yawn?
Speaks too fast, difficult to follow!