The theory I got right BEFORE Tears of the Kingdom ► Zelda Lore
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2023
- In this video, we discuss the Forgotten Temple in The Legend of #Zelda #TearsOfTheKingdom - This location changes EVERYTHING and confirms previous theories!
If you're a fan of The Legend of Zelda, then you need to check out this video! In it, we discuss the newly discovered Forgotten Temple, which changes several key aspects of the game. From Hylia to the Goddess Sword, this location is packed full of exciting new information. So be sure to watch the video to find out all the details!
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Voice Actors:
Hylia | Lady of Lore @TiptoeTheTank
The Bargainer | Charlie
The Ancient Stormark | Real Kid Voices
Zelda Lore | The Forgotten Temple
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• The Fascinating Myster...
Drakenwild | I Translated ALL 13 Sky Lore Tablets. You Can Read Them Now. || Zelda Lore
• I Translated ALL 13 Sk...
Linfamy | The Revolutionary Origins of Pure Land Buddhism in Japan | History of Japan 80
• The Revolutionary Orig... - Hry
The Ancient Hero’s Aspect could be what the Faron Barbarians looked like, a warlike and more primitive subset of Zonai.
Been kinda avoiding talking about that because I don’t wanna spoil it. I’ll talk about it soon enough tho.
@@moxiewatts Swaggi, gotcha
@@moxiewattsdo you plan on making a more comprehensive lore video regarding Totk release anytime soon
I kinda doubt it considering the attire of the hero when wearing the aspect. It much more resembles the style of clothing that Rauru and Mineru wear as opposed to the barbarian set. Imo the barbarian set is just misattributed to the Zonai and instead was used as ceremonial attire for a tribe of Hylians that lived in Faron near the Zonai ruins. It’s not implausible that modern day archeologists found the ruins and the clothes in the same place and just assumed both were made by the same people, when that’s not necessarily the case.
Also Rauru and Mineru (and presumably any other Zonai) tower over all the Hylians we see in the memories, including Zelda. The barbarian set fits Link nicely so I feel as though a Zonai would have a hard time wearing it, it seems constructed specifically to fit a Hylian stature. It also just doesn’t have any sort of aesthetic relation to anything built or worn by the Zonai that we’ve seen, or the Hylians that served them either. For those reasons, I have a hard time believing the armor set has anything to do with them.
@@handsoaphandsoap All true, agreed. Maybe they had a closer relation to Hylians pre-Zonai and post-Hyrulean collapse.
I liked your idea about the bargainer statue having something to do with the mother goddess statue falling. In the depths directly below the forgotten temple is the only tall standing bargainer statue.
The only fully uncovered bargainer, sure, while it could instead have been all the way down that cliff, half buried like most of the other statues.
They are indeed hiding more secrets, but so is Hylia and her statues.
Considering that bargainer spoke through a goddess statue and abandoned the small head that was underwater, we could consider only the horned statue has its spirit stuck on its statue at all times, not allowed to be reborn.
The mother goddess statue was likely toppled by the upheaval. That's what was seemingly implied
We can say the upheaval was presented in a way to hide how extreme it was at first, but I got that same impression.
We get to see its impact bit by bit as we visit the lands, once again sparking our curiosity for exploration, but to think it even broke the sky barrier that was already in place during Rauru's age, that's how crazy it was.
yes but why/how...its symbolic, you feel me?
Now if the zonai aren’t a barbaric jungle tribe, then we still don’t know who the barbarian set belonged to. Maybe it was crafted by humans, like typhlo ruins.
ok this is a total crackpot theory but as there has been some speculation about a third game with a red/power theme *maybe* the barbarian tribe will be the center focus of the hypothetical 3rd game
I saw a comment on a different video that suggested the “Barbarian tribe” Lomei were actually a different tribe of Zonai, and one of them is actually the ancestor of the ancient hero/link. And that’s currently my favourite head cannon.
Firstly, regarding the Barbarian armor, I think it might be tribal remnants of before Sonia and Rauru founded Hyrule. It's got the same sort of archaic leathers look that the archaic tunic does, the body paint seems like a variation of Sonia's, and the Labyrinths establish other divinities based on sacred animals, one of which is the Lord of Boars. Boars are heavily associated to Power, which would line up for a war-like tribe. Admittedly this is all weak evidence, but hey.
Secondly, regarding the White Sky Sword: this is just a theory, but maybe the white sword is supposed to be a backup plan for the Master sword? The Master Sword gets heavily damaged, but what would have happened if Fi had died (if she even can)? The world would be without a tool to repel evil. Hence, a backup sword, tempered by the dragon talons in place of the golden goddess flames. All it would be missing is it's own spirit to become a new Master Sword.
Finally (Stay with me on this one), while I am in no place to comment on cultural appropriation, I do believe you are correct that the doors bear something similar to the Jewish Sephirot, albeit slightly modified. Interestingly, the Zonai Eye (ZonEye?) appears in the direct middle of the design, while the Sephirot has some 'middle' entities. There are three candidates for what it's position might mean, so let's run through them.
1) Da'at, the unity of all the other elements of the Sephirot, where divine light shines infinitely. While this does tie into the Zonai's (supposed) divine origins, unity doesn't really seem to be an element for them, seeing as how they don't support themes of unity. There are also themes of seeing the truth of the divine light, which corresponds to the whole 'third eye' thing the Zonai have. Rauru only opens his in times when he needs to use a great amount of his light power, which could reflect the divine nature of his light, and seeing the truth of it. Interestingly, Da'at is not always included in the Sephirot, and can be considered a void in some cases (the void left by the Zonai when they left Hyrule perhaps?).
2) Tif'eret, the balance of Kindness and Giving Chesed, and the Strong and Restrictive Gevurah. Without this balance, the divine energy of creation could not manifest. The Zonai do carry a lot of themes of creation, with their technology/magic, founding of Hyrule, and the creation of Sages and Demon Ganondorf. Tif'eret can also be seen as a lower reflection of Keter, the incomprehensible absolute divinity, which would track for a race considered deities, but are more 'physical' than them. Though the Zonai lack themes of balance between kindness and strength; Rauru can be said to possess both, but it is his arrogance that unbalances them both and throws the world into chaos. When Da'at is not present, this sephira is considered the middle.
3) Yesod, the foundation upon which god built the world. It serves as a conduit for the divine energies above to filter into the world below (Malkuth), and it is through Yesod that the world can connect with the divine above. This is also a good fit for the Zonai, having descended from above with divine energies to grace the world, and the Zonai retreated back to the heavens, likely with information and other influences from the world below. Yesod is also considered more abstractly to be representative of connection, being reflected in the connection of the Hyrulean people to the gods, and the more direct connection of Sonia and Rauru, producing the kingdom of Hyrule.
Most of this I sourced from wikipedia, so if anyone who has a deeper understanding of the Sephirot and it's implications wants to chime in and/or correct me, please do!
Okay, this got away from me, but the implications here are really interesting!
There is also the spiral design that is found on the bird (Rito?) statues, located in the Typhlo Ruins, also found painted on the interior walls of the sand ship.
Speaking about your theory about the moving Temple of Time. On the same video, I talked a bit about my theory that there were multiple Temples of Time, and they were connected by portals. Now we have a builder king, named Rauru, who uses owl imagery, and makes use of portals as doors for his Temples of Light.
yes now i remember! that was a brilliant call
@@moxiewatts And, nobody is talking about it!
I think the original mother goddess statue cracked when it was dropped on demise and after some amount of time passes it breaks apart due to something like freezing and thawing. The pieces were then recarved into the ones we see now. Meaning they were all once part of the original statue.
I’d imagine the Hylians built the ruins in Faron just like they built the typhlo ruins, per the hidden monument.
yes I agree. its more indicative of a time period rather than a specific culture.
My headcanon is that early Hylians were barbaric and near bestial, and the Zonai engaged in a vaguely colonial "civilizing" project. At some point, the Hylians revolted, killed most of the Zonai and took their tech. A long while later, King Rauru -- as one of the last Zonai -- mends the broken bonds and shepherds the kingdom into its initial incarnation.
In our own history, we see civilizations that make pyramids and other structures, which are found years later by more primitive cultures. Those people will cover the old structures in various materials for different reasons. Some do it to protect the older structures. Some to try and imitate. It depends. You can see examples in Egypt and South America.
In Zelda, I imagine the primitive Hylians, which have a Mayan feel, did something similar with the zonai structures.
Funnily enough, my first thought when seeing the Forgotten Temple’s plot relevance was that the Guardians in BoTW were an attack force sent by whatever subconscious drive Calamity Ganon had. An instinctive fear of what lay there. I have no real evidence for this aside from conjecture and a gut feeling. Ironically, Age of Calamity supports your theory, with the ancient untainted Guardian placed there. Mayhaps the ancient Sheikah placed them there as added protection before they fell out of favor with the royal family. The site gets buried out of misplaced fear, only to be excavated by the next generation when those fears are forgotten.
OH i love this idea
Sephirot is where we get the FF7 villain Sephiroth from. Dude is a legend 😎
i like to think that after sonia, rauru, mineru, and zelda weren’t around anymore, maybe the hylians potentially regressed back to how they were before
thats whats implied to be true. i mean hyrule still in the middle ages.....
The room where the map with the geogliphs is didn't exist during the past. In the sages' vow cutscene you can see there's no entrance in the back of the secret stones room. Also, I don't think the guardians were placed there to protect the secret stones. Those were already given to the sages long before the sheikah technology was developed, and were placed each in its corresponding temple. How could the guardians be protecting the stones, if none were there since the Imprisoning war?
oh snap nice catch. I didnt even notice that.
this is a really good point and you gave me more to think about.
Whats funny about the white sword of the sky is that it isnt just the goddess sword you get at the beginning of the game. Its actually been upgraded once.
Also, the tree of life is a very old concept found in many religions and cultures. The door doesn't exactly match the Kabbalistic depiction although it looks similar.
Well hi there, how's it going
Brilliant watch as always Moxie, now onto your NEW video for over an hour of content! 😍
You're the best!
Love your channel as always Moxie!~ banger after banger
My head cannon about zonai ruins is that the ones we saw in botw were from a “dark age” when the declining zonai population caused them to lose much of their old culture and technology and they adapted a form of architecture more similar to the humans of the time. I believe that this dark age ended only a few generations before rauru’s time when the few remaining zonai rediscovered the secret stones. (Keep in mind I have basically no in game evidence for this I just think it’s cool)
Maybe the dark age happened after Rauru? We know he and Sonia had at least one kid, maybe the barbarian armour is from mixed zonai/hylian descendents who were trying to recreate zonai magic or something
IMO the barbaric tribe were Hylians who discovered the ruins and worshipped the dragons, naming themselves after the old race.
@@Shinntoku oooh I didn’t think about that, I like that idea!
I also have no evidence but fervently believe this would be the most logical (and fun) way to fit them into the lore in general.
The vatividya of Zelda except you have mind blowing discovories and theories. Im beyond excited to see this in my sub box
honestly bro tysm because that is what i aspire to be ;-;
Hey, the sheilah slate of age of calamity got modified to allow for the mass teleportation of whole armies... and divine beasts.
Heck. Calamity ganon was able to shut off the towers.
But off to finishing this video- so many stories about hyrule...
I think it is interesting, if it hasn't already been said, after stealing the stone of time, Ganon becomes much like something that resembles Demise.
Yes!!!!!
Thx 🙏🏾 moxie for this amazing video.
No problem 😊
2 issues 1) Guardians at the Forgotten Temple: By the time the Shiekah created Guardians, the Secret Stones were in the possession of the Sages in their respective temples. 2) The primitive "Zonai" overlay on authentic Zonai architecture: We know from the Thyphlo Ruins quest lines that ancient Hylians created those ruins to honor the sages. The ancient Hylians were not capable of matching the Zonai technology and architecture. I don't know if the overlay is an act of preserving the underlying creation or hiding it.
The Tobio's Hollow Chasm is the path to the Spirit Temple and the Secret Stone is kept there, seemingly unguarded by its Sage. We also don't know how the Sages are able to protect their Stones beyond staying hidden. That there are Boss level enemies blocking access to the stones implies there is more power protecting the Stones than just staying hidden.
PS Cultural appropriation: Sefirot also exists in Hindu mysticism as the 7 Chakras.
@@Skyfire-x Sort of, but the two are not strictly equal either - strictly speaking, the Tree of Life is a contemplative path between Man and the Divine, whereas the chakra are energy centers within the body. Parallels between the systems have certainly been pointed out and given dissertations by various sources over the years though. A lot of those comparisons come out of the Hermetic traditions of European mysticism.
@@Skyfire-x the guardians could have been placed there to protect the map room or something else, I thought there would be more to the lotus the first time I saw it, they may have had the same impression. I think there is more going on than we see, for example, the guardians may have been placed in the temple with a lot of fanfare, or at least not done in secret with the knowledge of the stones no longer being there as a way to hide their real locations. A form of misdirection, (the stories passed down of the time someone watched as guardians were packed into the temple before those same people buried it.) The original architecture being covered to look the same as what they were making in the thyphlo area. It seems similar to what would happen if a culture was being made to seem older than it really is or one group claiming to be the other. There are irl examples of a certain religion coming to prominence and altering or destroying artworks and architecture that are contrary to their point of view. I think this has happened in hyrule at different times. There is a post in this video's thread that mentions the same sort of thing, leaders killing off threats to their power and the narrative they want to be believed. Sorry for the rambling.
Hi Moxie! Greetings from Australia! I just wanted to let you know you have a new subscriber and I congratulate you on some awesome videos! They are very entertaining and extremely well made! Hope you have a wonderful day! 👍🙂
Thanks for subbing homie!! Australia!? DOWN UNDAH??
welcome in dude~!
For the mother statue toppling over I just assumed that the side effects of several chasms opening around the country would probably be earthquakes and that might have toppled her.
.my head canon for the barbarian armour ties into the Hero's Aspect, as I like to think that they were possibly the first Zonai to defend Hylians against the more "Elitist" for lack of a better term of the Zonai of the era and potentially solely defending the faron region from their zonai kin granting them the title of "the blue eyed beast" eventually the frail Hylians learned from Thier example making armour to mimic their hero, this could explain why the faron ruins are considered some of the oldest zonai ruins
I love this video this is great stuff you did a great job😊
Thank you so much!!
Don’t forget that Ganon took control of the guardians knowing that the secret stones existed in BotW. Perhaps Ganon was the one guarding the entrance to the forgotten temple chamber. But why?
Hmm, but were the secret stones in the forgotten temple during BotW? I thought they were where we find them in TotK, in the various temples...
i was wondering the same thing....what do you think?
Never would I thought hear someone say "Mommy Hylia". xD
I would believe that the Mother Goddess Statue falls over as a result of the Upheaval, it caused a large earthquake felt across the lands as Hyrule Castle was raised into the sky, and the result of this quake toppled the statue, revealing the hidden door that was behind the Goddess Statue. As we seem to know, the Goddess Statues are capable of being moved by their own divine powers associated with Hylia, this much is known by the fact the Horned Statue was moved from Hateno to the underground caves of Lookout Landing Royal Family bunker passageway. Either the horned state moved itself, or was moved by the power of Hylia's Goddess Statues, which are also capable of being moved around either by themselves or another power. We also happen to know that deep below the in the depths we also find Bargainer Statues in those exact locations below the Goddess Statues. There is also the one goddess statue we find in the Bunker also, and another located in a Well which you might have come across while exploring in the Akkala region next to the East Akkala Stable in search of all 58 Wells, why these two are here are such abnormalities that are in weird places and never before seen, it's as if someone put them there or they moved themselves there using their power.
I still strongly believe the connection of the people with Lurelin Village is connected to the Zonai in some way of the ancient past long forgotten, my belief is that the people of Lurelin are the last remaining descendants of those Hylian-Zonai-like tribe or civilization if you want to call it that. These people chose to settle in a remote quiet area and came to become what's now known as the Fishing Village. They decorate their homes and boats with Zonai-like paints and symbols, and the fact that there are certain few people who can read Ancient Hyrulean and Zonai texts, and even keep books on how to translate them like the ones Turo and Paya read to uncover the mysteries of The Ring Ruins, you even have Wortsworth who can translate Ancient Hyrulean texts from the 13 chamberlain ancient tablets that you have to take pictures of. Some of these textbooks came from Turo, and Impa who also had ancient text books too, as she also somehow had ancient textbooks relating to Dragon Tears, The Geoglyphs and The Forgotten Temple.
Something I would like to point out that the time between Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom seem to be about 7-8 years approximately, and when you visit the Forgotten Temple in Breath of the Wild you see that it's covered in a lot of rocks and such, but when you later go back and visit the sample place in Tears of the Kingdom, it does look like it has been excavated some more since, which may or may not add to the theory of why the Goddess Statue was toppled over. As a combination of my previous theory, someone had obviously been to the Forgotten Temple and removed or completely destroyed the remaining Guardians that was placed throughout the Temple, and cleaned up the other remaining rubble in the temple, perhaps they also tried to dig around the Goddess Statue to clean up that area, digging out more rocks that piled up behind that statue, but then decided it was too much work to to and left it, which also somehow contributes to it's being toppled over when the Upheaval happens, making it become toppled when we discover it again. The dirt and rocks that someone dug around the statue caused it all to become loose and unstable. -- Or even perhaps whoever was digging around the statue at the time caused it to topple over because the dirt and rocks became unstable, and then immediately fled the scene of the crime so as to not take the blame for the statue being toppled over, and there's only one person I can think of creating such a chaotic mess.... and that's Addison of Hudson Construction, why else would he haphazardly go around Hyrule putting up signs of Hudson with no proper support structures? Because he's so useless! _(this is just me obviously joking and memeing here.)_ but really someone would've had to of been digging around Mommy Hylia Statue that contributed to it falling over. -- Also have to consider the fact that going to the Springs of Power, Wisdom and Courage and offering up the Claws of the 3 Dragons to move the Mommy Hylia Statue speaks of the power of being able to move other things like a 500ft statue.
can i add that with the addition of the glider set we now have a boar and a owl outfit…
i dont think the zonaite outfit is a good match for the dragon and the three weather effect outfits are based of THE dragons
oooh i like that boar and owl ref soooo much
Whoa I have just seen how many subscribers you have now. I remember when you had way less(about 6 months ago) so well done 🎉
.........like 500
To touch on your mentions of potential cultural appropriation, it should be noted that Kabbala style imagery has its roots in Alchemy practices dating as far back as ancient Egypt, and has been used through out many belief systems and over the years such as varying Gnostic beliefs for example. It has been prolific enough in varying cultures and spiritual beliefs that I think one would be hard pressed to assert whether it has been appropriated from a given culture or not, as the symbol in question is bordering on generic by this point.
Either way, good video and good research.
Nintendo wouldn't be nearly the first to use it in a game either, I'll note. Over in the Doom community we noticed a Tree of Life diagram in Doom Eternal's Night Sentinel culture, where it's depicted behind the Slayer's crucible.
@@QuasarEE Exactly so, and thats not to mention all the anime that have used it too.
I didnt know this! thank you for sharing.
@@moxiewatts Check out alchemy, hermeticism, mystery cults, and the gnostics and you will find out that many of the ancient religious symbols have even older origins that predate those religions by an incredible margin. Could lead to some interesting and fun research.
I had a similar stance on the topic, but I am not an expert and am glad to have found someone else commenting to bounce my read of of.
I am a bit on the fence when it comes to cultural appropriation and often see more harm in the complaint then someone cooking a dish or wearing a cut of clothes. Culture lives from being shared and every single one we know got inspired by others before or cannabilised them. That how cultur works. Vor example the national garment of Vietnam as we know it now is heavely westernised as it is worn in Vietnam now and for quite some time now. It is beautiful and cultural importend, but it "stole" sewing technics from another culture to get there and in my eyes, that's not a bad thing that should be demonised.
Unreflected making the evil guys an allegory for muslims and using their prayers as off putting is disrespectful. Use something to communicate something in a context where it totaly makes sense is entirely different. Cultures do not die from being shared and adapted, they die through prohibition!
I wonder if the war like tribe was simply Hylians back when the Zonai originally landed on the surface. Something happened to the Zonai, did early Hylians enter into conflict against them?! Where did they all go, they seemingly disappeared or many of them are poes in the depths, Sonia also has tattoos/paint on her that is more refined than tribal paint, so maybe that's a sign of Hylians continuing to paint themselves, but eventually it was dropped from their culture as the Kingdom continued to develop them.
Didn't A Link to the Past talk about people trying to get to the sacred realm (the sky islands) to obtain the Triforce, makes you wonder, if Zonai not having any iconography of the Triforce, is a sign it ultimately isn't actually real but if a god-like species landed on Earth we'd create myths believing them to possess the literally power of the gods in some physical form. An early tribe race would do whatever it takes to obtain that power, including wage a war with the Zonai. Makes me wonder.
I just realized the magnitude of the blast Rauru made back then. Mind-blowing. So, let me get it straight. You are to tell me, that the Tenegar Canyon is the "after" the memory? In this case, Dueling peaks don't look that hard to imagine being nuked, back in the calamity. Yo!
Really enjoy your video image quality. What are you using to capture the game like this?
capture card & pro mode
one thing that has bugged me when theorising about TotK is the fact that Hyrule Castle was said to be built by the ancient Hylians on top of the underground area where Ganondorf is sealed to protect the secret. Doesn't this rule out that the Great Plateau was once Hyrule Castle?
no because it would have been a castle when Hyrule was established.
Hyrule's first castle.
I like to think the Barbarian set is what Hylians wore before the Zonai arrived.
The one mystery I would love to find out, who are the Lomei, the people who built the labyrinths
You mean... the castles? The Labyrinths are castles.
I would like to know that too, but at this moment I have no hypothesis.
great luck to you in trying to even link botw and totk lorewise, its a wild west now
it is and i have no idea what my own headcanon is.
More Moxxie lore lets gooooo!!
When I got to the forgotten temple in totk I was like: Moxie was right!! 😄💕
Love it 💖
This could be a stretch, but regarding the use of Jewish mysticism in the architecture in the world of Zelda might be tied to Monolith Soft’s contributions to the world building. Monolith Soft Xenogames are quite known to use themes from Gnosticism, Jewish Mysticism, and Philosophy in their games.
Interesting, good context that might answer my own question about whether it's the Jewish or Hermetic traditions that they're referencing. If the studio is known for doing this already then it's probably a sealed deal.
this is a good point i will consider...it's a tough conversation, but figuring it out either way will quell my mind at least.
My thought was alchemy, which was heavely influenced by the Kabbala and is like the prime example for combining science and magic.... Which is what the zonai and shieka do too!
when you mentioned that culture being inspired by another, it reminded me of weeaboos. and romans (greekaboos)
Well done🎉
The Guardians were placed there 10,000 years ago at most. By that time, and long before that, the secret stones were no longer in the Forgotten Temple. They were there until the sealing war. But after that they were in their respective temples.
The map room wasn't there in the memories, it was built later, along with the geoglyphs.
Currently theorizing on a lot of TOTK stuff from a lot of different angles- if the shipyard/ sand ship are in fact related to/ ARE the stormwind ark and/ or nearby islands, the idea that the god that fell was a Zonai sort of implies that the Zonai built the Lanayru mining facility and all the ancient tech in Skyward Sword. (Though, if we're to assume the Zonai built that ancient tech, the placement of the Great Abandoned Central Mine as more or less right below the temple of time is... interesting)
Oh yes im with you, because i mean look at the similarities between the LD- series robots and the constructs! same colors and designs.
the sephirot like symbol on the door does look to me more like they had a certain design and mechanic in mind to open the door, but scratched the idea in a rush. I think the deepenings would have all been seals, connected to the main big seal below. And in order to open the door fully, one has to collect seven elemental powers or spiritual energies. Just like the door of time in OoT can only be opened with three spiritual stones, which also have deepenings accordingly on their pedestal.
I think it would have been cool if we actually would have been locked out without all the stones...it feels like they missed a huge opportunity there. Im with you on this one. DJPeachCobbler did an analysis on TOTK and I ask his thesis question again here:
"Nintendo, do you not take pride in your exploration?"
Maybe the Goddess Statue toppled during the upheaval, while everything was quaking
thats generally what people are thinkin'... just seems odd theres no gloom.
I got one question. Why did Zelda turn into a light dragon, and not a time dragon?
This is a good question... and I am not sure.
Hey Moxie I wanted to know your opinion on the Old Maps and the clothing they point to, does that have any lore implications? All the old maps are found on the floating islands so all the maps had to have been made around the time of the sages raising the islands, right? I'm not really sure how to explain it properly but if the clothing means anything timeline wise would it mean that all the events of the past games actually happened before the ancient past of Tears of the Kingdom? Would love to know what you think because you're way more of an expert about the lore than me.
I've been kinda thinking about this as a background process in my head....like you find them in the sky and all the old armor is found in the depths....almost like someone intentionnally stored them there AND kept records of their locatons in the sky...seems backwords...
if it was the Zonai who indeed placed these items, as we are led to believe, then you would be right. all the events take place before. However if there is another race like the lizard people able to control the zonai magic, it leaves the entire history for these items to be placed.
tl;dr unsure
@@moxiewatts it’s even more confusing when you take into consideration the Wild set is also in the depths. Are we too assume that Link didn’t solve all the shrines in botw and that the origin of the set is found in the giant dragon bones in the depths and then when you do all the shrines the monks use magic to make them appear in front of the goddess statue? Sorry I wrote that in a really confusing way but I hope you get what I mean.
@@moxiewatts also just thought of another thing, something more confusing i find is that mineru sent the construct to find ancient blades, a technology that had yet to even exist when she was around. My only guess is she asked the construct to search for sheikah technology when it is created as she knew of sheikah tech because of the Purah Pad. Again, hope you get what im saying sorry im terrible at wording my thoughts.
Hey Mox, great video, as always.
I have to warn that below is a grammatical and incoherently formatted monstrosity of text that I wrote with like an hour of sleep, and I may be forgetting or imagining things. Readers beware. tldr; hero's aspect makes no god damn sense and it bugs me.
I'm commenting mostly because I can't get a certain something off my mind.
It's the Hero's Aspect Armor. It doesnt... Make sense?
Namely, the notion that it's either a Zonai, or Gerudo/Zonai hybrid. Firstly, hybrids don't apparently work in that way in the Zeldaverse. You get an either or situation, not a mixture, afaik. If a Zora and Hylian have a child, you pretty much roll the dice as to what their offspring are, either a Zora or Hylian, for example.
Basically, hybridized races don't actually exist as they do in the real world.
So having established(?) that, it wouldn't make sense that the Hero of the first (known to us) Calamity was a Zonai, and it couldn't have been a Gerudo male, as Urbosa suggests that ever since Ganondorf was sealed (as we now know, by Rauru) there hasn't been a Gerudo male born since. The reason a Zonai doesn't make sense to me, is that as far as us (the players controlling Link), is that as of the time of Ganondorf's sealing, at least 20,000 (Calamity reawakened every 10k years[?]) years ago (although I'll argue way longer for very dumb reasons) the only known Zonai by anyone were Rauru himself, and his older sister, Mineru. Which just raises the question of where this alleged Zonai hero came from?
I've come to a number of conclusions and I honestly just want some feedback from some people on it.
1) Unreliable narrator. Basically, we could have incorrect facts about the whereabouts of the remnants of the Zonai race and the nature of the Calamity, or when this particular Calamity occurred. We've either been misled intentionally by something/someone or there's been a purposeful and intentional omission of the actual history of Hyrule as it's known by the era of the Hero of the Wilds. If the King of the era of Prosperity was willing to put an entire subrace of Hylians to the sword for their creations in the form of Guardians and Divine Beasts out of fear, I can't imagine he'd be above purposely crafting a glamorized or inaccurate narrative for the tapestry the Shiekah make.
2) The Hero's Aspect is basically Hyrulian propaganda. Hear me out. If there are no (known) Zonai once Mineru and Rauru are no longer around, how could a Zonai fight a Calamity? There shouldn't be any left to do so. Ganondorf hadn't been sealed during the prominence of the Zonai initially, so there's no Calamity building strength or to fight during that time, and by the time Ganondorf was sealed, there were no Zonai left to fight the Calamity. But there are fading legends and whispers of a godlike goat people race from the heavens that used the mysterious green ore that's found sparingly around Hyrule, and it's fashioned into a stylized armored second skin for that era's Hero to use to fight the Calamity alongside the Guardians and Divine Beasts, adding to the hero's skillset and power, bolstering it further. After all, the Shiekah of that era, while not at the Zonai's level of technological sophistication (or with limited to no access to Zonite) it wouldn't be incredibly hard to believe they'd be incapable of creating it.
3) The Hero of the Wilds is the original hero of the depicted first (known to us) Calamity. Farfetched, right? Well, if this were a series other than the Legend of Zelda series, a series somewhat known for it's time-travelling shenanigans, it would be. But there's a possibility that there may be a future story in TotK (via DLC) that leads Link into sealing away that Calamity, and it doesn't officially start until you're awarded the Hero's Aspect. I'm not exactly sure how it would kick off, but given the timeline tomfoolery in this game, I'm not going to completely discount the possibility.
4) The most boring answer. It's just an armor piece that's based off the Hero in the tapestry, and it was included as a fun Easter egg, and Impa mentions it to call back to the tapestry.
OMG yeah dude I wanna talk about it so bad but I dont even know what I could say about this armor thats coherent.
1.) Has been my leading hypothesis. Ganondorf says the Zonai perished, and neither Sonia or Rauru correct him. Lorulean does not think that the constructs are the Zonai, like Zeltik proposed. Lorulean seems to think that Rauru and Mineru might have been the ones to do the sealing. I'm not so sure myself.
2.) I really like these thoughts and this proposal. It makes the whole "ganondorf has come around several times thing" kinda not believable since we are led to believe he has been sealed under Hyrule Castle since the founding of Hyrule. How would Ganondorf be reborn if he was always sealed below Hyrule? EZ it might be another timeline. No confirm, no deny. This would also kinda lend to the first idea, an unreliable narrator.
3.) I definitely think we could see a third game or DLC with time travel.
4.)
@@moxiewatts @2) I have a supporting theory that Rauru's founding isn't Hyrule's first founding, being absolutely at minimum, the second one.
If we look at Rauru and Sonia's time through this lens, Ganondorf no longer being reborn suddenly fits, and rather easily, given the title of the Era of the Prosperity itself. If the Demon King and Spirit of Demise's Hatred are basically being held until the opening events of TotK, with smatterings of this weird dangerous disembodied boar appearing extremely infrequently and battered back each time, the technological gains of the Shiekah and the overall complete unification of all of the non-Hylian races under a single banner seem to make way more sense, given the scale of time this offers the kingdom as a whole.
Overwriting Skyward Sword is also essentially overwriting Fii, and she's very clearly still in the Master Sword, which lends credence to the theory that Rauru didn't found Hyrule, but possibly re-civilized it, for whatever reason it was required.
My serotonin is spiking
me too
When you wanna be the first to watch the new video 0:11 but you just have to kill Gannon and then you'll be be finished with the main story it you wanna wait until get finish all the shrines. (28 left and am. Not looking them up, not even where to find them) but I did snag thst first like!
the river of the dead is where the Zonai Castle is on the plateau
Oh snap for real? I'm really interested in how you arrived at this conclusion.
@@moxiewatts If you look at the memory where Zelda "turns" in the background you can see the castle. Also the path to the east of the Temple of Time leading towards Mt Hylia is what I believe to be the gate. Right where it gets real cold and some spicy peppers spawn. I have screen shots of what im talking about. sorry for rambling.
I love these little insights into your life. Never would have guessed you were Jewish. 🤷🏼♂️
Also I love that Charlie is no longer given a title, ie "my partner Charlie" from earlier episodes. His relation to you now is just expected backstory knowledge. 😂👊🏼
You rock, Mox.
Warning: My thoughts are hella ramblely and I'm a bit of a scatterbrain due to a concussion. So Uh. I may get off topic from this video. Sorry!
If u check the sage temple well it has a stone saying the the sword was moved from here so maybe it’s the original sacred grounds?
I think the room behind the mommy statue was not their during BOTW event and it was built because of Zelda’s time travel and her influence
The barbarian armor seems to me it belonged to the hybrid race of hylians and zonai’s which maybe the ancient hero descends from 🤔🤷🏻♂️
sorry you are saying the sage ruins are the sacred grounds? im not quite understanding.
I think its a stretch to assume it was built during the time that she was there but not out of the question.
The shape might represent Rauru and the other sages. One big one (Rauru) and six more just like the other sages.
Wait... Did the golden goddesses become dragons just like zelda?
The Golden Goddesses left the world entirely, so no, I can't see that. Otherwise the Triforce wouldn't exist, as it was created at the time and place that they left the world, to be their link back to it (hence it being the world's source of divine providence, where it would crumble, like Lorule, if it is removed).
I was thinking....I mean its been a leading hypothesis....the goddesses were (once) kinda human (ref. oracles)
For your point #4, the timing doesn't make sense. You speculate that the Guardians were placed inside the Forgotten Temple to protect the Secret Stones. However, by the time the Guardians were placed there, the stones were already distributed to the Sages. There would not be any stones there to protect. Instead, what if the Guardians were placed there to protect Sonya's grave? Or the ancient map deeper within? Perhaps they were placed there, not as guards, but as a means to dissuade anyone from investigating the ruins and discovering the hidden rooms beyond the statue at all.
Hay, in regard to the mystical Judaism discussion, firstly I think you’re right, but I also think the devs were referencing western esotericism/magick as opposed to the actual thing. It’s still maybe problematic, since there’s a whole history appropriation there from what I’ve heard.
From a lore angle tho, if you wanna explore that avenue, look into theosophy, OTO, Golden Dawn, etc
Secondly, watch out, some stuff is kinda fasci-y
❤❤❤
"light speculation": I dunno probably like this. Or not.
well, the kaballa was allready heavely appropriated by and now therefor intrinsically linked to alchemy and therefor is bound to show up whenever someone comes up with some pseudo science magic . . . it is impossible to do anything with alchemy without getting into like 3 typs of mystethisms that have their roots in a religion thats still somehwhat in practise . . .
I heard this from another. It's a long history with this symbol apparently. What do you think of it?
@@moxiewatts might be the wrong person to ask, since I am not that religious myself and have a bit of a clinical view of it as well as not being an expert on judeism and not a native speaker which makes communicating something this delicate a struggle, but I can try.......
the symbol explains more or less the making of the world and with that in a way god itself, how you find your way to god.... Which explains why alchemists used it for they tried to play god, they tried to understand the making of the World and find a way to be craters or at least change more then possible by normal means. The Kabbala is similar to seeking enlightenment in Buddhism a way to break free from the normal confines of a human limitations through spirituality and on the material plane the alchemists tried the same by other means..... They did not just steal the symbol out of context, they had their own spiritually beliefs that where heavely inspired by the kabbala as well as other mystesism strains of religions.
Most religions and culture over all lives from sharing taking inspiration and getting incooperated into eachother. The Romans allowed all gods in their empire for all gods where real to them and they often thought it is the same god as another under another name so traditions started to merge. Christianity on the other hand denied all other gods and was therefor a threat to the empire, for allowing that ment to offend all other gods....
Beer and wine come from Mesopotamien, we use Arabian numbers, English is a weird mix out of protogerman and french.... Pretty much all we got now is based on inventions, believes and traditions having been shared and while how that went was not always ok at all, it in itself is not bad.... Just imagine we could only ever use or believe what we our self's came up with?
The fact that there never was a clear line and change and sharing are in the nature of culture itself, makes me extreamly very of the concept or cultural appropriation. The Mexican dia de muertos and all the beliefs behind it are and glorious amalgam of native American and Christian ones in the best of ways. It is such a beautiful and unique way of what is basicly a day or mourning .... But people who claim that culture has to be kept pure, any way 9f taki g inspiration and learn g from enother is stealing cultur and a crime would demonise that! And then people claim that getting anywhere near that is cultural appropriation too, despite the fact it would not exist, if there had not been exchange........ You can not steal culture, the only way to harm it is by forbidding or otherwise preventing it from being practised....
With religion I get it is a bit more emotionally loaded.... But context is importent there I think too.... In the fire temple a religious chant with a non intended meaning got used to be off putting, which I get is insulting and misplaced. In this case though, the symbols meaning is very much appropriet for it's use. It does not get parodiesed. No negative associations get created... You either do not know or notice, or you do notice and it is kinda fitting for the same reasons it made sense for the alchemists to use it....i am not a fan of forbiding and problematising things just because and I see no harm done here.... But I am as mentioned not the harmed party so lack context!
As agnostic I see all and any religion as equally valid or well, to question. I have respect for religion, but no reverence that elates one over another or differentiate between religious and other personal believes. unless one gets done dirty as in "Islam is inherintly a voilent religion" while the same people compleatly miss all the red flags for Christianity, I will not riot.
I do not get offended just for someone daring to do anything at all with something importent to said religion. I think everyone has a piece of the truth and we get the closest to it, when sharing the best from everyone with everyone, which is the polar opposite of the gatekeeping everything is cultural appropriation unless we benifit sharing what white people had to offer mindset.
I see no harm, but it probably was not the best decission ever with how the political climate is right now and I could totaly be wrong since I lack context to precisely determine just how offensive this could be and whatever that would be an outlyer overreaction, or the generell consents of "things not done!!" ...
I just want to add a detail to this topic: Zelda games are, since the beginning, a big fat "cultural appropriation", mostly from Christianity in the early games. Also all architecture (buildings, etc) in TOTK are inspired in some culture. I understand that inspiration and derivational work is not appropriation, even if it comes from religion. But I don't know Judaism this deeply to notice if it offends the religion... If it does, them that will be careless development from Nintendo. I believe Nintendo was a stronger research when it comes to cultural impacts these days than back at Ocarina. But what do you think? I am interested to know more when you find these answers.
That being said, congrats on your work, I love your videos and the philosophical layer it brings to the conversation, not just entertainment theories for bigger audience.
The way I see it, honestly, is that it is cultural appropriation because its taking a sacred symbol from a culture and altering/modifying it for profit. However, as i mentioned, there are exceptions and even encouragement to share specific pieces of culture. I am no expert, but those are my prekimary thoughts.
& thank you so much! I work really hard on making my content interesting, its definitely not for everyone tho, and I get that. I appreciate your support.
@@moxiewatts did they profit from it though and does it have an impact on the practitioners? It is not a central thing, more a background detail that is allready commenly adapted and only few people even recognise it as related to jewdeism, while way more might recognise it from it's usage in alchemy related media. It's meaning does not get warped or exploited. It does not get used to cast shade on the practitioners, there is no misrepresentation happening......
If Evangelion can get away with a Tree Of Life, so can Zelda.
Really enjoyed your contributions to the captburgerson discussions and your last video about the bargainer. Plus that post you made about the whole surface map being a construct was like woah *hits bong* can't wait for more heavy speculation
Just found this czcams.com/video/_0n1Q0CV-3A/video.html lots of similarities to the Zelda lore and implications that may be related
wait if we have a stash of goddess swords does that mean we have a bunch of backup Fi..(s?)?
I think thats the implication of why the Goddess Sword breaks is that Fi is not inside of it
I don't think the Muslim song in the dungeon in OoT counts as cultural appropriation. There's a difference between hijacking a culture to serve your purpose and using music from a sound catalog. If anything, the sound catalog is guilty of cultural appropriation.
Don't take my criticisms too seriously though. I enjoyed the vide a lot despite my comment.
I think it was because the Fire Temple was meant for more of an evil vibe.... like according to Nintendo. I cant remember where I read it tho. So they didnt want to equate evil with Muslims.
@@moxiewatts - Yes. There's some truth to that, but the song was picked from a catalog of stock music. They didn't even know what they had. But yes, your statements are correct too.
Technically true, but I get why they cut it, using something religious where it did not fit in meaning and for the means of unsettle the player.... Yeah, that is not appropriate even if it was nor malicious and the fault lay in the source, it was the right move to remove it once they where aware of the implications
Yooo
Ok so beginning around 20:30 when u talk about the tree and the seffirots... not gonna say I'm an expert on the subject (I don't rly think any1 is nowadays) still I got obsessed with those kind of things at one point in my life...
The sephirots are the spheres of the tree, the fact that they put the emphasis on the root may be the key to the message as it is the 1st step in "the process" (not gonna try to get in dept about that)
Yes in popular culture it ended-up being associated with the jewish ppl but keep in mind the jews used to be associated with ppl, where they came from and their culture b4 it was became a religion.
What I personalky think is The Tree was part of the jews cultural eritage, it was already much older than them, some other ppl told them about it and they in turn shared their knowledge with the world so ppl could still study the wisdom of the teachings, what is today called Kabbalistic teachings.
Good vid. 👍 On the Tree of Life (Sefer Sephirot) diagram, I'll note that it and much of other Kabbalistic practice were exported into European occult traditions a long time ago. Notable Western magicians who utilized it have included John Dee, Mme. Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, various members of the Golden Dawn order, and Samael Aun Weor. This might be the tradition that Nintendo drew on rather than its original Jewish roots, but of course we cannot know without them explaining it and I really doubt they're going to do that. If it's the Hermetic tradition that they're drawing on, I would have to say that softens any case for cultural appropriation a bit as those traditions go back to the 1400's. Then again it can maybe be looked at as another product of European imperialism, too, in that the occultists of the west have always felt privileged to draw from, absorb, and alter any tradition they please.
Also figured I'd give a tl;dr on the state of Buddhism and Shinto in modern Japan - they are heavily syncretic, with many practitioners following parts of both traditions simultaneously, and many shrines that are both places of worship for kami and Buddhist temples or altars at the same time. Outside the one period of time you mentioned where there was an imperial effort to drive the two apart, the overwhelming arc of historical motion in Japan has been to combine the two religions, even despite the tension that exists between some of their deeper notions (such as Shinto having creation myths, whereas Buddhism posits no creator god, and Shinto having the concept of souls, whereas a foundational aspect of Buddhism is anatta - no eternal soul, and ultimately, no true "self"). You can find a LOT of info out there on this, of course, more than I can ever recount.
My thought was alchemy, combining magic, Religion and science .... Just like the zonai and shieka do!
@@QuasarEE all cultures are an amalgam out of different older influences and I find it weird, that for example taking a tradition from the dia de los muertos is cultural appropriation, but that the celebration itself is already taking and combining native American and Christian traditions and believes so in itself "guilty" of cultural appropriation!
Or as a westerner it is frowned upon to wear an ao dài, the national garment of vietnam ..... Which is how it is worne now for quite some time bastardisation of an Chinese inspired, Vietnamese garment that got reinvented by an Vietnamese tailor that adapted western tailoring technics! It is just as much Western as Vietnamese at this point in how it is constructed....... But is that a bad thing? No, it is beautiful and has a cultural importend place for many people and a point of pride!
We are using Arabian numerals, roman latter's, drink Mesopotamia alcoholic drinks and no one bat's an eye when Americans and whoever else wears a southern German dirndle .... The concept of cultural appropriation is in itself and it's aplication deeply flawed....
@@arianewinter4266 Yeah it's ultimately in the eye of the beholder I guess. Like, use of the Tree of Life by anybody can't offend me personally, but I'd also understand if Jewish people have bad feelings toward it since it's a sacred element in their theology and some of the repurposed uses of it definitely don't jive with the original intention.
Regarding cultural appropriation, I think there is a world of difference between using real world systems, imagery, and cultures to ground a fantasy world and putting on the elements of a culture for the purpose of mockery. Also, all cultures have good and bad people. Displaying cultural elements with a villain is not making that culture the villain.
Using a Muslim chant in an evil or spooky way is no different than tons horror films that have used Christian imagery for years. And you know what? There were a bunch of church groups that protested and whined about those movies until society at large decided it wasn’t a big deal. Why are we so worried about offending these groups? They are crying out like children and should be ignored or rebuked for their foolish attempt to control media.
Now, that said, I think it is perfectly reasonable for Nintendo to not want to offend a customer base in the Ocarina of Time remake, but that is within the reasoning of the profit motive, not because those groups have some moral right to avoid offensive things. We should celebrate cultures and share in the bountiful history handed to us by those long past. That includes telling new stories with those elements, bending them, and using them for the author’s purpose.
Cultural appropriation 😂 looooool wah wah wah
I don't have much time right now so I'm going to come back and watch this in an hour from now
[Edit]-[one hour later]-- Ok, I was able to watch it and (surprisingly) I don't really have much to say about it or to add to it
Thanks for the update
Look up sealed temple from Skyward Sword and compare to Forgotten Temple. Then do same w each sacred spring from Skyward and ToTK😉 prepare for a major shock 😉
The Sealed ground in Skyward sword is the temple of time in Ocarina of time
You lost me at cultural appropriation
ok :KEWK:
@@moxiewatts The tree of life traces its roots back to the Assyrians
the kabbalah has 10 circles and looks completely different....a far cry from a literal verbatim chant. just because they use circles doesn't make it a reference to anything jewish. that's ridiculous
Honestly looked quite similar, and I didnt know if it would be something people find offensive or not. Had quite a few comments expressing concern in my community post about it. Enough to take the accusation seriously.
you're right. and im sorry I was a bit rude. but you have a valid point ofcoarse. but it's relatively close to the same as saying it's offensive to India because they call them rupees. there's more examples I can't recall at the moment but the series is known for being influenced by many cultures. which I think is amazing. I'm not Jewish but I find it really cool that there is a similarly like you explained because it taught me something about a great culture. you do great zelda lore videos also so thank you.