Only Jonathan Ferguson, the keeper of firearms and artillery at the Royal Armories Museum in the UK which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weapons from throughout history, can make a 17 minute rant about a glorified stick interesting.
Bayonet fencing were not only a part of the military training but also a type of sport in the USSR for some time. I did a small bit of this training out of interest, we still have one instructor who keep the traditions of this sport. We've used Mosin rifles with flexible bayonets for training. It really doesn't have much of resemblance to the combat, but more of a sport.
A friend of mine here in Germany had one exactly like this - with the full-size magazine. The mag is probably so thick to prevent it from breaking off when handled by NVA conscripts.
That's what I figured, or to more closely match the weight maybe? These don't strike me as thoroughly designed and tested implements, more like they're good enough and easy to make tons of them.
@@bebo4807 There is wood - and wood. Obviously, they didn't use teak or any other fancy exotic high quality stuff - just some cheap readily available pine wood, probably. The good old Soviet approach: Make it simple, make it reliable - make it cheap and available - and make many many of it.
I have one from a random online purchase, similar cloth strap, thick 'magazine', basic twist on and lock, spring action, end tip similar to a thick walking cane end.
I figure that this was probably used for the like first stage of bayonet training, to like teach new recruits how to effectively use a basic bayonet shape. The larger bayonet helping with accuracy and the general design helping with good bayonet form. I would assume later on in training they would be issued a rifle and a mock bayonet which are normal bayonets that are dulled. These mock bayonets would better represent the weight and length of the actual combat bayonet.
We actually had two of them, one even with the fake bayonet. They came from a west German neighbour working in the Bundeswehr in the early 90s. He was part of a task force to harmonise both german armies and seems to have gotten some of the NVA training mock-ups. He also brought parkas with the trademark "ein Stich-kein Strich" pattern of the NVA, as well as warm boots. Our dad somewhat later confiscated the bayonet and much later the whole thing to use the wood for wood turning, as it was of nice quality. I remember the groves left on the curved surfaces by the router bit of the manufacturing machine. War-toys were pretty much out of favour in these times already.
6:47 I gather there's a bit of an uncertainty with dates in this matter, since there was a domestic competitor to the AK in the form of the modernized StG.44 called NDR, which was apparently developed in 1959. 8:27 The German name basically means 'Kalashnikov submachinegun', which is somewhat surprising, given that there was already a much better German equivalence for the Russian автомат: Machinenkarabiner, literally machine carbine, but not quite in the British sense and more like 'automatic carbine'. 9:14 That's the downside of choosing a universal training implement for both the SKS- and AK-armed personnel. 9:36 It's properly called 6Kh2. 14:48 Training sabres were likewise called gymnasium sabres at the time. 15:36 ...Although still with a very AK-style bayonet.
for the "submachinegun" name, it's possible it was due to the influence as to how the AK was initially supposed to beployed, as the AK and SKS were not concurrent but designed to serve alongside, the Simonov being issued to the standard rifle troops in stead of the Mosin/Tokarev rifles, and the AK was more of a specialist weapon, replacing the Shpagin/Simonov submachine guns another thing is that while "Maschinen Karabiner" (MKb) was a real designation, it wasn't used that much, the StrumGewehr being introduced to the army as the Maschinen Pistole 42, then MP 43 before getting the StG designation in 1944, that latter designation would probably be barred from use because of connotations with the previous regime, and the MKb designation not being widely known, that left the designation under which that type of weapon was well disseminated, submachine gun
@@quentintin1I've read somewhere that the term MKb goes back a long way into the Weimar period, when it was already used for various proposed firearms chambered for intermediate cartridges supposed to overcome the range deficiency of the MP.18.
@@F1ghteR41 the idea of such a weapon does indeed dates back to WWI, but from what i can find, the term MKb wasn't coined before Haenel and Walter were contracted to design such a weapon, thus remained tied to that one program, which came to a temporary halt when mr.H put a stop to rifle development abd acted that new SMGs were to be made, and the weapons were then subsequently renamed MP to be allowed to keep being developed so the term wasn't long lived, thus had no space to implant itself in the collective consciousness it is of note that when the DDR created it's volksarmee, they were initially armed with StG 44, renamed to MPi 44 until replacement by the MPi-K
@@quentintin1 The term was around before the Second World War for certain, as it was used, for example, in the name of Vollmer's M35, which was fully automatic & which used an intermediate cartridge, as well as the SIG submachineguns of the era: MKMS etc.These latter ones are all over the web, and Vollmer's gun is discussed in Senich's book, I believe.
@@F1ghteR41maybe, but the Vollmer gun that you mention didn't go much further than a prototype, thus remained rather confidential of course the term machine carbine (or equivalent in other languages) got around, that's how the british army named their SMGs but remains rather limited to a couple places, manufacturers and guns
When I was in high school, we have this kind of wooden rifle for training ,too. I wounder if you have that in your collection, I remember it shaped like a M16.
I've seen this. When I was deployed overseas with the Army, we were taking a hill. We were almost to the summit when we saw a really fat enemy combattant waddling toward us in a menacing manner. He was yelling, "TANK... TANK... TANK..."
I know this is the Royal Armouries channel, but I think a episode with you showcasing and telling about objects that have been borrowed for the collection to either make replicas for filming / reenactment or to be 3d modeled for games. I think in one of the Gamespot videoes you told about Rebellion Developments coming and looking at rifles for Sniper Elite. I would show that yes the collection is for keeping and protecting the guns and their history but the collections is for all to use be it inspiration or just to look at.
From what I know the cut down magazine Ak trainers where imports into the US. They cut the magazine short for ease of transport. There are what I think earlier more well built versions of this, with a more elaborate front sling swivel. Those are marked with Modell. 4853 on the barell. From what I understood from a collector who spoke with former NVA service members the 48 stands for the year of the SKS was adopted and the 53 for the year the trainers where introduced. But he had no proof for this.
these were also used without the plunger attachment to equip soldiers training on the obstacle course to prevent the real guns from being damaged. There having a pistol grip isn't really needed because you would only have it slung anyway and it would easily break off.
I would also assume that, due to its placement and size, in the vast majority of cases where the pistol grip would "get in the way", the magazine would also be getting in the way far more, so in the context of bayonet fighting or having it slung, it's somewhat redundant.
According to a cursory search on Google (which could be inaccurate) the overall length of a DDR SKS is a bit Longer at around 104 cm according to the Smithsonian and the MPi-K being around 87 cm according to the Gun Wiki (Don't laugh lol) Which seems to support this being an SKS Training weapon, especially if you also consider that the DDR was probably implementing many cost saving measures to the tune of probably not wanting to use more materials than necessary to produce these training rifles (IE: Making them larger than the intended rifle) Good Video!
I mean when I was in the Australian army we did bayonet training on a dedicated assault course. They used scrap barrels with bayonets welded to the lugs to save damaging serviceable barrels.
Technically it is a weapon…specifically a club, perfect for the Elbonians. Also, for the entire video I was wondering what the long rifle in the background was.
Polish youtube channel Sieniawski fencing has a youtube video going over bayonet fencing. People tend to forget that guns are heavier than most melee weapons so a possible safety concern is the full stroke of a fully weighted rifle hitting your head. Japan still maintains a tradition of bayonet fencing called jukendo but it is stigmatized due to its association with imperial Japan.
I have two of them, only one with a "bayonet", though. As kids we visited a friend of a friend at the former inner German border who had loads of them and when we played around with those he gave some to us..
I'm amazed they even had simulators for training at this late stage. The other examples I've heard of have all been pre-WW1 because doctrine hasn't included complex bayonet fencing since machine guns took over.
The footage of the training rifle in use is from I would suggest the 1980s. This is evidenced by the lack of exposed buttons on the pockets of the uniform of the NVA soldiers, which is a feature of later uniforms. I would need to check with better informed friends to get a clearer idea of the exact date that that feature was introduced, but it could be seen right up until the reunification.
The Japanese Army certainly did bayonet fencing (and took it very seriously) recently, and may still do so. I saw them practice this in Iraq around 18 years ago. The rifles were wooden, and looked like a basic WW1/WW2 rifle. I took short videos, if I can find them!
jyuukendo (the word "kendo" with the word for "gun"(jyuu) stuck at the front) is still part of the school curriculum in Japan - the parents of each school pick a traditional martial art for that school to teach them. It's massively controversial, with some parent-teacher groups organizing to try and ban it. jyuukendo is some of the more competitive and well-trained bayonet-sparring that you can see on Earth. I wish I also could see such a demonstration, especially considering how jyuukendo is considered by a healthy number of Japanese adults as being a little too reminiscent of the unsavory.
My guess it didnt have the magaziine when it was originally fabricated. And then later had the magazine added as the wepon it was meant to represent went out of service, to resemble the newer automatic carbine got the magazine added on later. I have a swedish bayonet fencing rifle that is meant to represent a Mauser, and back when it was manufactured bayonet fenciung was a more common skill in any army.
I do also own one - it's very much similar although the finish looks different. Mine is a much rougher, seemingly unvarnished finish, much like my MPiKM handguard, whilst the museum's one looks to be nicely finished? Likewise, I have a friend with a deactivated MPiKM with a varnished handguard. For anyone wondering - earlier MPiKM variants had wooden lower handguards, in theory because a polymer composition that would withstand the heat from the barrel hadn't been found.
At a guess it was designed with training people to fight with the sks but with the ak on the horizon they added the ak like magazine so that when/if they changed over they wouldn't have to make a new one
Hmm. I've been wanting to build one these for a 3 band musket/rifle with the equivalent weight/balance. Good for demonstrating the downsides of bayonets vs spears of the same size. The big advantage being that it can shoot bullets...
Regarding the length disparity, is it possible that the training bayonet was designed to be universal and fit to a mock up AK, SKS, and maybe even a Mosin Nagant?
Looks like a functional combo of M44, SKS, and AK. The lack of pistol grip might be because that's a weak point if you thrust. Maybe they wanted troops to use the narrow portion of the buttstock as they would the wrist of the M44 or SKS?
Yes. Standard practice for AK bayonet use is to grasp the handguard. People are really overthinking this whole thing though. These were very widely used by the NVA from the 60s to 1989. It’s just a cheap training implement designed to have as few breakable parts as possible (hence no pistol grip.) They weren’t only used for bayonet training but also basically how “Rubber Duckie” M16s are used by the US - for assault courses, or other training where a real weapon isn’t necessary/could potentially be damaged. Of course in that role, the bayonet attachment was removed.
I loved the training; all we had to do was bayonet sacks full of straw. Even I could do that. I rememeber saying to my mum, “These sacks will be easy to outwit in a battle situation.”
We were not allowed bayonet training. Supposedly it would turn us into crazed killers. A discharged Officer cadet (RMC Duntroon) had claimed in court, as part of his defense, that the bayonet training at RMC was why he stabbed people. So we learned a "drill movement" called "on guard" done with SLRs with fixed bayonets and requiring an appropriate "shout" .....
I spent some time with it as a child in the GDR (DDR). You'll quickly gain muscle if the bayonet is rusty. But you will become stronger than the decadent western system 😅
Die Fecht-MPi wurde benutzt, um bei der Ausbildung wie z.B. Sturmbahn oder Schwimmausbildung die originalen Waffen nicht zu verschmutzen oder zu beschädigen.
Hey Jonathan, would it be possible for you to talk about the Wieger 940 series some time in the future? I think it has a very fascinating history, with its blueprints being delivered (after the fall of the GDR) to some captain, who then brought them to the BND, which ultimately destroyed them. Some say the Wieger was the better AK and I would really like to hear your opinion on that.
As usual, the Japanese have adopted bayonet fencing but taken it to the extreme as a very formalised martial art form which they call Jūkendō (銃剣道) . Look it up on CZcams - it reminds you a bit of Kendo but with a wooden 'gun and bayonette'. They even hold competitions.
When i was a kid my dad gave this thing to me and i transformed it into a more rifle like deco gun , and its ever since beautiful , he told me that he got this during his time in the bundeswehr ( west germany army ) so i guess this thingy was more like a multi nation throwout
I'm just guessing but I would think that they made the training weapon thicker for increasing hand and arm strength. If you can hold a big block of wood that's the same weight but a thicker diameter than the real gun with a very tight grip, you can hold the real gun with an extremely tight grip if you have less to wrap your hand around. I might be overlooking something even more practical than that but it seems like it falls into the kind of simple yet effective training that military men received back then...and still do these days. Maybe a little less simple these days.
Maybe the magazine is so big and thick to make it both heavier, and to encourage keeping away from knocking out your real magazine by making you stay as far away from it as possible?
Thick mag to make the wooden "mag" have a more similar mass to the real mag? The rifle could have started out as sks style fencing rifles or perhaps nonspesific bolt action mosin nagant carbine/kar98k and then got the mag after the adoption of the ak as the standard rifle to avoid having to build new fencimg rifles. Seems totally logical to me
I think he was just playing it safe since Bakelite is a genericized term and some internet sleuths might get a little annoyed if they know for a fact it wasn't made of actual Bakelite, but rather a variant.
It seems like this would train the user to be a lot further away from their target than they should--the "bayonet" on these seems extremely long compared to what a real one would be.
Maybe the main purpose is to create the muscle memory of the action of stabbing/thrusting with bayonett, rather than duplicate the actual weapon it self. Otherwise it might be difficult to get men to actually stab the enemy.
What I would do to be your offsider getting the more repetitious jobs etc. And I don't mean anything weird by that. I have knowledge of early match wheel flint saphaunce etc firelocks. And can disgnose issues make replacement parts but never alter a original. Please tell me if I can make dreams come true. I realise how nutty this sounds, and I love and have spent yrs caring for early firearms, and I never tire from it. It's cost me money the books the weapons etc. I hsve also built a matchlock which now nears 20yrs in age and it still works. Thanks. Desperate housewife
Only Jonathan Ferguson, the keeper of firearms and artillery at the Royal Armories Museum in the UK which houses a collection of thousands of iconic weapons from throughout history, can make a 17 minute rant about a glorified stick interesting.
Not just any stick! It's a stick with a spring attached (actual spring missing).
To think he could have been Jonathan Ferguson master general of the ordnance.
You don't watch ScholaGladiatoria, do you?
But it's the perfect stick.
That wasn't a rant, by _any_ (valid) dictionary definition of "rant".
Bayonet fencing were not only a part of the military training but also a type of sport in the USSR for some time. I did a small bit of this training out of interest, we still have one instructor who keep the traditions of this sport. We've used Mosin rifles with flexible bayonets for training. It really doesn't have much of resemblance to the combat, but more of a sport.
The 1:58 camera wobble synced with the poking was top tier. 😂
A friend of mine here in Germany had one exactly like this - with the full-size magazine.
The mag is probably so thick to prevent it from breaking off when handled by NVA conscripts.
That's what I figured, or to more closely match the weight maybe? These don't strike me as thoroughly designed and tested implements, more like they're good enough and easy to make tons of them.
@@bebo4807 There is wood - and wood.
Obviously, they didn't use teak or any other fancy exotic high quality stuff - just some cheap readily available pine wood, probably.
The good old Soviet approach: Make it simple, make it reliable - make it cheap and available - and make many many of it.
I would think the magazine is extra chunky to deter trainees from using it as a handle, making it unergonomic deliberately
We had this in the GST =Gesellschaft für Sport und Technik and at the Grade 9 at a compulsory shool course in civil Defense in the former GDR/DDR
Magazine size was, as far as I am aware, made so the training piece would have added weight and therefore closer to the weight of a service piece.
I have one from a random online purchase, similar cloth strap, thick 'magazine', basic twist on and lock, spring action, end tip similar to a thick walking cane end.
"Woodn't you know, another one"-Great segment title there.
"A wild Jonathan appears" is amusing for anyone who first encountered him via the games industry.
I figure that this was probably used for the like first stage of bayonet training, to like teach new recruits how to effectively use a basic bayonet shape. The larger bayonet helping with accuracy and the general design helping with good bayonet form. I would assume later on in training they would be issued a rifle and a mock bayonet which are normal bayonets that are dulled. These mock bayonets would better represent the weight and length of the actual combat bayonet.
4:08 There is an "omg" flashing for a split second lmao
We actually had two of them, one even with the fake bayonet. They came from a west German neighbour working in the Bundeswehr in the early 90s. He was part of a task force to harmonise both german armies and seems to have gotten some of the NVA training mock-ups. He also brought parkas with the trademark "ein Stich-kein Strich" pattern of the NVA, as well as warm boots.
Our dad somewhat later confiscated the bayonet and much later the whole thing to use the wood for wood turning, as it was of nice quality. I remember the groves left on the curved surfaces by the router bit of the manufacturing machine.
War-toys were pretty much out of favour in these times already.
Thanks Jonathan and team.
I'm sure Lance Corporal Jones would like this episode.
They don't like it..
6:47 I gather there's a bit of an uncertainty with dates in this matter, since there was a domestic competitor to the AK in the form of the modernized StG.44 called NDR, which was apparently developed in 1959.
8:27 The German name basically means 'Kalashnikov submachinegun', which is somewhat surprising, given that there was already a much better German equivalence for the Russian автомат: Machinenkarabiner, literally machine carbine, but not quite in the British sense and more like 'automatic carbine'.
9:14 That's the downside of choosing a universal training implement for both the SKS- and AK-armed personnel.
9:36 It's properly called 6Kh2.
14:48 Training sabres were likewise called gymnasium sabres at the time.
15:36 ...Although still with a very AK-style bayonet.
for the "submachinegun" name, it's possible it was due to the influence as to how the AK was initially supposed to beployed, as the AK and SKS were not concurrent but designed to serve alongside, the Simonov being issued to the standard rifle troops in stead of the Mosin/Tokarev rifles, and the AK was more of a specialist weapon, replacing the Shpagin/Simonov submachine guns
another thing is that while "Maschinen Karabiner" (MKb) was a real designation, it wasn't used that much, the StrumGewehr being introduced to the army as the Maschinen Pistole 42, then MP 43 before getting the StG designation in 1944, that latter designation would probably be barred from use because of connotations with the previous regime, and the MKb designation not being widely known, that left the designation under which that type of weapon was well disseminated, submachine gun
@@quentintin1I've read somewhere that the term MKb goes back a long way into the Weimar period, when it was already used for various proposed firearms chambered for intermediate cartridges supposed to overcome the range deficiency of the MP.18.
@@F1ghteR41 the idea of such a weapon does indeed dates back to WWI, but from what i can find, the term MKb wasn't coined before Haenel and Walter were contracted to design such a weapon, thus remained tied to that one program, which came to a temporary halt when mr.H put a stop to rifle development abd acted that new SMGs were to be made, and the weapons were then subsequently renamed MP to be allowed to keep being developed
so the term wasn't long lived, thus had no space to implant itself in the collective consciousness
it is of note that when the DDR created it's volksarmee, they were initially armed with StG 44, renamed to MPi 44 until replacement by the MPi-K
@@quentintin1 The term was around before the Second World War for certain, as it was used, for example, in the name of Vollmer's M35, which was fully automatic & which used an intermediate cartridge, as well as the SIG submachineguns of the era: MKMS etc.These latter ones are all over the web, and Vollmer's gun is discussed in Senich's book, I believe.
@@F1ghteR41maybe, but the Vollmer gun that you mention didn't go much further than a prototype, thus remained rather confidential
of course the term machine carbine (or equivalent in other languages) got around, that's how the british army named their SMGs but remains rather limited to a couple places, manufacturers and guns
When I was in high school, we have this kind of wooden rifle for training ,too. I wounder if you have that in your collection, I remember it shaped like a M16.
Sir, you are a true educator and I thank you.
I've seen this. When I was deployed overseas with the Army, we were taking a hill. We were almost to the summit when we saw a really fat enemy combattant waddling toward us in a menacing manner. He was yelling, "TANK... TANK... TANK..."
Were you fighting Orks?
@@robertcowley-yamamoto4880 DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!! WAAAAAARRRRGGHHHH!!!!
WAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHH
If the umpires allow it, it must be cricket.
@@myparceltape1169FOR THE UMPEROR!!!
I know this is the Royal Armouries channel, but I think a episode with you showcasing and telling about objects that have been borrowed for the collection to either make replicas for filming / reenactment or to be 3d modeled for games. I think in one of the Gamespot videoes you told about Rebellion Developments coming and looking at rifles for Sniper Elite. I would show that yes the collection is for keeping and protecting the guns and their history but the collections is for all to use be it inspiration or just to look at.
Noted :)
there is a definite elegant beauty to that fencing musket !!
As part of a reenactment event with the Surrey Rifles, I've suited up and fenced against someone with the Martini Henry version. Good fun!
From what I know the cut down magazine Ak trainers where imports into the US. They cut the magazine short for ease of transport. There are what I think earlier more well built versions of this, with a more elaborate front sling swivel. Those are marked with Modell. 4853 on the barell. From what I understood from a collector who spoke with former NVA service members the 48 stands for the year of the SKS was adopted and the 53 for the year the trainers where introduced. But he had no proof for this.
Next episode: Jonathan shows us this very cool rock he found... And we'd all still be watching it. :D
My guess, they were initially training versions for the SKS, later refitted with a AK style magazine as the NVA adopted the AK
these were also used without the plunger attachment to equip soldiers training on the obstacle course to prevent the real guns from being damaged. There having a pistol grip isn't really needed because you would only have it slung anyway and it would easily break off.
I would also assume that, due to its placement and size, in the vast majority of cases where the pistol grip would "get in the way", the magazine would also be getting in the way far more, so in the context of bayonet fighting or having it slung, it's somewhat redundant.
According to a cursory search on Google (which could be inaccurate) the overall length of a DDR SKS is a bit Longer at around 104 cm according to the Smithsonian and the MPi-K being around 87 cm according to the Gun Wiki (Don't laugh lol) Which seems to support this being an SKS Training weapon, especially if you also consider that the DDR was probably implementing many cost saving measures to the tune of probably not wanting to use more materials than necessary to produce these training rifles (IE: Making them larger than the intended rifle)
Good Video!
Ah, so that’s where they got the inspiration for the Dalek-weapon!
That MPi-K is an absolutely gorgeous prime example of the Kalashnikov
I mean when I was in the Australian army we did bayonet training on a dedicated assault course. They used scrap barrels with bayonets welded to the lugs to save damaging serviceable barrels.
Technically it is a weapon…specifically a club, perfect for the Elbonians.
Also, for the entire video I was wondering what the long rifle in the background was.
Perfect. An Elbonian soldier needs something like this to resort to when his Zip 22 or Cobray Terminator jams lol
Please do a video on fencing bayonets!
Polish youtube channel Sieniawski fencing has a youtube video going over bayonet fencing. People tend to forget that guns are heavier than most melee weapons so a possible safety concern is the full stroke of a fully weighted rifle hitting your head. Japan still maintains a tradition of bayonet fencing called jukendo but it is stigmatized due to its association with imperial Japan.
We have one in my sports shooting club, a very cool piece of military history, the one we have originates from the DDR
You know, you don't hear many willing to talk about the Dance Dance Revolution.
I imagine it was a difficult time.
The dance dance revolution of '61 certainly was a bloodied and sordid affair in time
I have two of them, only one with a "bayonet", though.
As kids we visited a friend of a friend at the former inner German border who had loads of them and when we played around with those he gave some to us..
Whoever left that one frame "omg" at 4:09 thank you, you little memester :D
Looks like a cross between an SKS and an AK, maybe to train groups that used both?
Gonna take this to a HEMA class 🗿
I haven’t watched the video yet but my guess is California compliant AK, feeling pretty confident.
I'm amazed they even had simulators for training at this late stage. The other examples I've heard of have all been pre-WW1 because doctrine hasn't included complex bayonet fencing since machine guns took over.
The footage of the training rifle in use is from I would suggest the 1980s. This is evidenced by the lack of exposed buttons on the pockets of the uniform of the NVA soldiers, which is a feature of later uniforms. I would need to check with better informed friends to get a clearer idea of the exact date that that feature was introduced, but it could be seen right up until the reunification.
At 05:28 I'm pretty sure that it's "magazine" is that thick to try and "soldier-proof" it.
The "Fecht-MPi" was used in training such as assault course or swimming in order not to damage or dirty the real weapons.
The Japanese Army certainly did bayonet fencing (and took it very seriously) recently, and may still do so. I saw them practice this in Iraq around 18 years ago. The rifles were wooden, and looked like a basic WW1/WW2 rifle. I took short videos, if I can find them!
jyuukendo (the word "kendo" with the word for "gun"(jyuu) stuck at the front) is still part of the school curriculum in Japan - the parents of each school pick a traditional martial art for that school to teach them. It's massively controversial, with some parent-teacher groups organizing to try and ban it.
jyuukendo is some of the more competitive and well-trained bayonet-sparring that you can see on Earth. I wish I also could see such a demonstration, especially considering how jyuukendo is considered by a healthy number of Japanese adults as being a little too reminiscent of the unsavory.
My guess it didnt have the magaziine when it was originally fabricated. And then later had the magazine added as the wepon it was meant to represent went out of service, to resemble the newer automatic carbine got the magazine added on later.
I have a swedish bayonet fencing rifle that is meant to represent a Mauser, and back when it was manufactured bayonet fenciung was a more common skill in any army.
I have a Swedish m96 trainingrifle, with a steelball in front 😀
I think the piston goes in 30-40cm.
I do also own one - it's very much similar although the finish looks different. Mine is a much rougher, seemingly unvarnished finish, much like my MPiKM handguard, whilst the museum's one looks to be nicely finished? Likewise, I have a friend with a deactivated MPiKM with a varnished handguard.
For anyone wondering - earlier MPiKM variants had wooden lower handguards, in theory because a polymer composition that would withstand the heat from the barrel hadn't been found.
We had pugil sticks and "Rubber Ducks" which were demilled & rubber weighed in the handguard M16A1 rifles.
At a guess it was designed with training people to fight with the sks but with the ak on the horizon they added the ak like magazine so that when/if they changed over they wouldn't have to make a new one
Or the mag came after the ak became standard in the army to avoid making a new fencing rifle?
Hmm. I've been wanting to build one these for a 3 band musket/rifle with the equivalent weight/balance. Good for demonstrating the downsides of bayonets vs spears of the same size. The big advantage being that it can shoot bullets...
Regarding the length disparity, is it possible that the training bayonet was designed to be universal and fit to a mock up AK, SKS, and maybe even a Mosin Nagant?
Looks like a functional combo of M44, SKS, and AK. The lack of pistol grip might be because that's a weak point if you thrust. Maybe they wanted troops to use the narrow portion of the buttstock as they would the wrist of the M44 or SKS?
Yes. Standard practice for AK bayonet use is to grasp the handguard.
People are really overthinking this whole thing though. These were very widely used by the NVA from the 60s to 1989. It’s just a cheap training implement designed to have as few breakable parts as possible (hence no pistol grip.)
They weren’t only used for bayonet training but also basically how “Rubber Duckie” M16s are used by the US - for assault courses, or other training where a real weapon isn’t necessary/could potentially be damaged. Of course in that role, the bayonet attachment was removed.
The stock seems similar in shape to a Mosin, especially with that bottom sling cut
I remember finding on of these for sale in of all places a cabelas and having no idea what it was
I don't understand why people don't subscribe to a channel they watch often.
I loved the training; all we had to do was bayonet sacks full of straw. Even I could do that. I rememeber saying to my mum, “These sacks will be easy to outwit in a battle situation.”
We were not allowed bayonet training. Supposedly it would turn us into crazed killers. A discharged Officer cadet (RMC Duntroon) had claimed in court, as part of his defense, that the bayonet training at RMC was why he stabbed people. So we learned a "drill movement" called "on guard" done with SLRs with fixed bayonets and requiring an appropriate "shout" .....
Be quite Baldrick
I spent some time with it as a child in the GDR (DDR). You'll quickly gain muscle if the bayonet is rusty. But you will become stronger than the decadent western system 😅
Die Fecht-MPi wurde benutzt, um bei der Ausbildung wie z.B. Sturmbahn oder Schwimmausbildung die originalen Waffen nicht zu verschmutzen oder zu beschädigen.
The wooden portion of the stock Most resembles a 1944 MosinNagant rifle to me.
I saw "wooden fencing" in the video title and I thought it meant a rifle with furniture made from pieces of wooden fence.
Sounds very British. Could make the metal parts out of railings 😝
There was a mention of original footage on the internet. Anyone has a link where to find it?
Hey Jonathan, would it be possible for you to talk about the Wieger 940 series some time in the future? I think it has a very fascinating history, with its blueprints being delivered (after the fall of the GDR) to some captain, who then brought them to the BND, which ultimately destroyed them. Some say the Wieger was the better AK and I would really like to hear your opinion on that.
I wish I had a gymnasium rifle in high school.
Another reason not to add the pistol grip is probably to make it harder for bored soldiers to try and use it as a pogo stick.
The average soldier will be too busy holding it by the plunger and swinging it like a not-at-all-safe-for-practice club.
That stock profile really looks like a Berthier.
As usual, the Japanese have adopted bayonet fencing but taken it to the extreme as a very formalised martial art form which they call Jūkendō (銃剣道) . Look it up on CZcams - it reminds you a bit of Kendo but with a wooden 'gun and bayonette'. They even hold competitions.
1960's East German bayonet training aid - but did we, the British, or other western nations do a similar thing? I've never seen or heard of anything.
The stock looks like a Mosin Nagant rifle
When i was a kid my dad gave this thing to me and i transformed it into a more rifle like deco gun , and its ever since beautiful , he told me that he got this during his time in the bundeswehr ( west germany army ) so i guess this thingy was more like a multi nation throwout
"Swollen tip" now that doesn't sound pleasant 😂
Me: Yeah, I'm not getting the resemblance.
My guess on why the magazine is so thick is that it was done simply for durability
I'm just guessing but I would think that they made the training weapon thicker for increasing hand and arm strength. If you can hold a big block of wood that's the same weight but a thicker diameter than the real gun with a very tight grip, you can hold the real gun with an extremely tight grip if you have less to wrap your hand around.
I might be overlooking something even more practical than that but it seems like it falls into the kind of simple yet effective training that military men received back then...and still do these days. Maybe a little less simple these days.
The guy at 4:08 "omg" 🤣
It could have such thick magazine for balance emulation purposes
Now, what about a light saber version of this?
Maybe the magazine is so big and thick to make it both heavier, and to encourage keeping away from knocking out your real magazine by making you stay as far away from it as possible?
Did they get the plunger off a Dalek?
Wow, three bots with women's butt avatars dropping the first three comments. :D
They get quicker every time
Kinda funny
Lol
Bayonett fencing used to be an olympic sport.
the swell puts me in mind of a Berthier rifle
A training prop to practice bayonet charges?
Thick mag to make the wooden "mag" have a more similar mass to the real mag?
The rifle could have started out as sks style fencing rifles or perhaps nonspesific bolt action mosin nagant carbine/kar98k and then got the mag after the adoption of the ak as the standard rifle to avoid having to build new fencimg rifles. Seems totally logical to me
When are you going to do another book?
Might I propose:
"European Revolvers"?
epic video ty
so called bake-a-lite?
so what is it?
I think he was just playing it safe since Bakelite is a genericized term and some internet sleuths might get a little annoyed if they know for a fact it wasn't made of actual Bakelite, but rather a variant.
It seems like this would train the user to be a lot further away from their target than they should--the "bayonet" on these seems extremely long compared to what a real one would be.
The shape has a very Berthier feel
A sexed up pugil stick. Pugil training was the second most intense workout I ever had.
Maybe the main purpose is to create the muscle memory of the action of stabbing/thrusting with bayonett, rather than duplicate the actual weapon it self. Otherwise it might be difficult to get men to actually stab the enemy.
Maybe the buggered up a load of stocks during production, and decided to make something out of them…
Thrust, disembowel, disengage.
I want one
Do you need a FAC to own it?
4:24 Yoshimitsu wins!
When Berthier rifle and Ak-47 have a child, that would be that.
What I would do to be your offsider getting the more repetitious jobs etc.
And I don't mean anything weird by that.
I have knowledge of early match wheel flint saphaunce etc firelocks.
And can disgnose issues make replacement parts but never alter a original.
Please tell me if I can make dreams come true.
I realise how nutty this sounds, and I love and have spent yrs caring for early firearms, and I never tire from it.
It's cost me money the books the weapons etc.
I hsve also built a matchlock which now nears 20yrs in age and it still works.
Thanks.
Desperate housewife
Looks cool and bulky
Agreed @@martkbanjoboy8853
It's a militarised pogo stick.
That fencing musket is long enough to reach france
I see these hanging in army Navy stores and I keep thinking they're built by some guy in a shed
SKeSque
I guess you don't get a second chance when getting all stabby with an AK so having more mag is better than none.