Trying to FIX a Bathroom Extractor Fan that doesn't run on
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- čas přidán 14. 12. 2018
- Hi, this 'trying to fix' video shows me attempting to repair my brother's bathroom fan which doesn't run on when it is switched off. Fans that run on are useful to remove smells or moisture in the air even when the lights and fan have been switched off. If it was working properly you would be able to set the over run from 1 min to 30 mins or thereabouts. At the moment it is running on for 20 seconds.
Remember that this is just for entertainment and I am not an expert in these repairs. The processes in the video may not be the best way, the correct way or the safest way to fix these things.
I do love fault finding and trying to fix broken things so I hope that comes across in this 'Trying to FIX' series.
Many thanks, Vince. - Jak na to + styl
You inspired me to fix my bathroom fan... Now sorted. Although i knew what was up with mine and i deliberately broke it as it was stuck on (too humid), now fixed the external vent and reconnected the beast.
Great channel - i wish i had the time to do stuff like this!!
Looks like a manufacturing design defect. You don't put a massive wire wound resistor like that in a confined space next to heat sensitive components.
It’s definitely that large resistor that’s gone-it’s scorched where the smaller resistors have cleaned up perfectly
My old audiolab amplifiers resistors were exactly the same-brown and scorched circuit board on the output stage
I think the caps are ok-they bulge at the top if their knackered
The scorching is definitely that resistor
..unless, of course, you want people to have to replace them every few years. Cha-ching! #PlannedObsolescence ;)
I love what you do! its awsome that you post what you love on youtube! keep it up!
Just opened up our Manrose fan to see an identical board. Thanks to your video this has convinced me to bin it and go for a VentAxia instead of trying to fix the board.
Great educational video Vince.
Love your videos keep up the good work man
Cool little video again Vince.
Love the video's keep them coming.
Keep those videos coming I love it
Congrats Vince for 320K Subscribers! ;-)
It's actually more common for resistors to drift in resistance than go completely open or shorted.
Love your vids keep the switch ones up
While I agree it would be quicker to buy a new one (assuming a new one had same fixing holes etc), that is missing the point of these videos. It's the process that is valuable to hear and see.
Yeah, but I still hope he tossed it after he "repaired" it. That thing seems beyond repair. Seems to be broken by design or something. Don't get me wrong, putting lipstick on a pig can be fun and all, but it can also cause some grievous misunderstandings.
@@Hagledesperado Yes, it's essentially crap, to be expected for an item of such low cost
@@jns8393 Can't be that crap if it lasted 17 fcking years (late 2001 (week 44) datecode on the PCB, with a copyright notice from 2000).
Willing to bet a replacement wouldn't have lasted anywhere nearly as long
Anything that lasts over 10 years is not crap and the fan was repaired for now . Works fine and if it develops ankther fault then invest in buying a new one
@@David-uq2uk All I mean is that it's hardly a quality product with high design and production values. But yes it's certainly done a good job!
Love youre video's mate!
Finally a new multimeter.
Tho you could buy a broken fluke multimeter, fix it, and have a pro multimeter for super cheap :p
Hey Vince! Would you please consider adding the model number of the item you are trying to fix in the description? I'd like to see if there is any documentation available for the device. Also, you might want to start looking up the device's schematics for reference when you're troubleshooting a circuit. You'd be surprised how often you can find the PCB schematic online. Great video! Consider ordering some power supply kits for your workbench. Suggested voltages are DC 5 and 12 volts. See if you can find a kit with an adjustable amperage value. It could be very fun and educational to work on something that isn't broken before you begin.
that resistor is reducing the 220v to something for the chip to work, it is going to run hot and will cause the capacitors to fail again. Nice video btw!
Another enjoyable video
Eletrolytic caps don't really mix well with heat. They start to dry out, loose capacitance and increase in ESR. Delaminating traces are also the result of excess heat (especially on this type of phenolic paper PCBs). Also the clearances between tracks are awful. Absolutely atrocious design. If you want this thing to work longer without failing move that big resistor somewhere in the airflow so it has some cooling. BTW. That chip is just a quad CMOS NOR gate. It's used here as crude timer.
The problem is that the resistor is powered all the time, not just while the fan is running. It will still overheat even if in the airflow. It needs to be replaced with a higher wattage resistor as the one used clearly is not capable of dealing with the power it is exposed to.
I wouldnt have that fan anywhere near my bathroom. What a terrible design! The Chinese dont care. Was that even a UL Tested device? I doubt it.
These extractor fans don't die that fast, they cost hardly anything and last for a good few years. My grow room uses these on permanently and they are fine. You just have to clean up the fan blades and cover every so often to keep it quiet and effective.
Thanks for an entertaining video mate. Your like me, only more advanced. 😄
Nice vid, when soldering just bend the long feet so it will stay in place without the need to hold it. Also you might wanna cknsider getting a 3rd hand (idk if thats the correct term in english, just a little arm with a crocodile clamp at the end of it)
You were measuring the static pins of the potentiometer. They will not change value. It is the third pin, the one off by itself, that is the rotor and changes.
Those cheap Chinese capacitors should always be replaced with better ones, which it seems you did.. They should also be rated for 105c since they are near high heat. 85c (or unmarked) is the lower rating. They dry out from exposure to the heat. Since the 330mfd could be the timer (drains slowly through the pot to keep the IC turned on), if it were replaced with a 470mfd cap it would keep running for a longer period but probably adjustable to a desired time via the control pot. Good on you for getting Panasonic since it will be better than a no-name Chinese cap, which are the bane of electronic devices these days.
Your resistor is a metal type and unless open probably is still usable. Why it got so hot could be due to a few things but it could have been the bad caps if they were leaky enough or it could just be a tad small for the job.
All in all, good job. You are getting the hang of this stuff.
the left and middle Pin is connected on the board. ~0.2 Ohms
Watching the video closely, he replaced one cap with a gerneric piece of junk 85°C from a capacitor assortment (which belongs in the bin), and only the 330µF was replaced with a good Panasonic cap (even the non-aqueous FC series, which was probably a coincidence)
@@Knaeckebrotsaege That was what I thought I saw too but if the original lasted years I guess this will do for a few. I don't use them at all. I keep Nichicon and Panasonic on hand. Of course, I have regular need for them and he doesn't so no criticism is intended.
cheap Chinese capacitors are nearly always the problem in all electronics
That big resistor is actually designed to run that hot it is failing, and it also forms part of the power supply for the timer chip.
Love these Vids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love your videos
That really looked like it almost catched fire. I think its better to just replace it, before it burns down your brothers house.
Agreed, don't waste any time trying to fix something like that when it could fail and cause a house fire possibly...a replacement is £15 .. not worth the risk. I'm all for repairing things but that sort of damage isn't worth the risk. Also in higher risk zones like a bathroom you really should avoid tinkering too much.
Its a really dodgy build anyways. Using a resister like that instead of a voltage reduction circuit is asking for it. Heat is killing the thing anyways. Think of it like a heating coil in a small box heater. Yes it reduces the voltage, but it is also creating heat, something that happends naturally. There are much better ways to reduce voltage than using that type of mess. Great way to burn the house down.
@@Dedubya- Hi, yeah I agree as you see from my comments above.
@@scottfirman yep.
I agree with those saying this is a badly designed device. That resistor is acting like a heater in a small and combustible space, it's great you found the fault but please replace the unit before it catches fire.
Great video
The output to those two black wires is 240v AC so it doesn't matter which way round you reconnect. Fan will spin in same direction either way.
Also, have you tried adjusting that pot? I'm sure that will adjust the timer.
Looks like mine, the sensor was far too sensitive so it was on permanently the repair guy just said its easier to lower the sensitivity but it took a while as humidity has to be factored in.
the caps would have been my first guess too. the timer works on how fast you charge the cap. then when it gets charged it puts power onto a leg of the IC which then shuts off the fan.
The chip, HCF4001BE, is a quad NOR. Likely two of the small resistors, one of the caps and a diode are used as DC supply to the chip, the pot and the smaller cap are used as timing devices. When turned on the cap builds a charge and when turned off the cap will start to discharge. The discharge rate (time) is controlled by the pot. When the cap voltage reaches a lower threshold, it will trigger the logic of the NOR gate to turn off the transistor and cut off supply to the fan. The worry about this design is the use of a high wattage resistor to drop voltage to the fan, knowing it will get very hot in an enclosed and already warm & humid environment. These types of caps will fail frequently in this environment, and a much more serious problem is the resistor fault in this video will likely occur quite frequently, and it seems like a huge fire risk. If I were asked to repair this item I would recommend against it because of the hazard, and would report it to the Government regulators. It is a very poor and dangerous design.
I'll add that the code on the resistor looked like red red orange to me at the start, so 22k. Given how hot it got in this design I'd never use that again without as a minimum replacing it with a bigger 5 watt or 10 watt resistor as it will just cook all the components again if left as is.
I didnt see a UL sticker anywhere on it did you?
Thanks for all the detailed information :-)
have same thing
thanks for a great video
What's the laptop you use in your previous videos. Btw great video, I have a broken bathroom fan. Much help👍
Thanks, it is a GPD Pocket :-)
My bathroom fan looks the same with the hot running resistor, I actually think its intentional to heat up the enclosure and stop condensation forming since they're used in humid wet rooms and mounted into a hole where cold outside air can cool the fan PCB below the dew point.
It maybe was kind of intentional, but bean counters ended up downsizing the resistor wattage rating and using cheapo junk caps to save a few cents per unit, leading to this mess...
They apparently didn't get to the fan motor to cost-down that into a failure, since the bearing in that thing lasted for 17 years
I’m starting to think he’s breaking things around the house to fix them lol
those capacitors are simply smoothing capacitors to reduce electrical noise so the fans uses electricity more efficiently. the capacitor makes it so that rather than ride half the sine wave, it takes the energy and smooths it out so it can get more of the sine wave input
Love how Vince carefully insulated the cap leg from the trace he needed to connect to.
Now I could be wrong, but it looks like a crazy cheap design! I suspect the resistor is dropping the mains AC voltage. You can see that from the L & N connections on the board there. Probably half wave rectified and smoothed by one of those caps. The 22K reading you got on the resistor sounds about right. Resistors can change their resistance when heavily burned like that though. One of the caps is used for timing I think (along with the variable resistor).
The 2 smaller diodes might be zener diodes to regulate the DC voltage perhaps. I think there's a dropped AC input via one or more of the smaller resistors (and possibly one of those smaller diodes) there - to act as a sense, and input into that 4001 NOR IC I think. So that NOR will have 2 inputs, the timer input and the switched input. When the timer is "charged" its high, when the switch is on its high, meaning the ouput is low. Fan is probably engaged when the transistor gets that low. If the switch is turned off, that means the switch signal is low, but the timer is still high (charged), but since its a NOR gate the output will remain low because one of the inputs (the timer) is still high, so fan keeps going. When the cap runs down below CMOS high logic level the NOR gate now has 2 low inputs, switching its output high, turning off the fan.
I am always amazed when I see something like this working with little effort used to drop 240V down to probably 12v or so (CMOS voltage, and I guess it would be 12v as opposed to 5v as I cannot see how else the Fan might be powered). As others have said - I would use 105 degrees caps too. I think the other thing I would do personally is swap out that 22K resistor with something that can handle a bit more current. That said, I see no fuses on this which imho would scare the hell out of me, especially seeing how crammed up everything is next to that very hot resistor. I think the output from the CMOS IC there is switching the fan on via the small transistor (could be wrong but that's how it looks). When resistors like that fail they can often go short circuit. That would mean 240v fired straight into the regulation and rectifier side, which would short and blow those out. I guess since they are small sized components they would possibly act like a fuse anyway. One of the higher resistance resistors must be forming the other half of the voltage divider for the switched input and the "always on" live that gets dropped to around 12v.
Again, take what I say with a pinch of salt, I could be wrong but it looks quite simple and a good one to learn from for sure. Finally, I see more than one gate on the 4001 wired there (but cannot tell how, as its upside down and I cannot see where pin 1 is easily), but they might be using more than 1 gate there to invert the logic to the transistor. Would seem a bit crazy to do that though as you could just use an OR gate instead of a NOR gate to achieve the same thing lol.
the clear orange diodes are Zener diode. which allows current to flow in the reverse direction when i target voltage is reached. :)
In America, we call that a fart fan.
PalmettoMoon same here in Canada.
FYI - the black diode with the silver band could be a schottky or rectifier diode. The print on the component will tell you exactly what it is. The brown glass diodes are zener diodes.
Thank you Lisa :-)
Want to add a note to how you think it works to help teach. When the switch is on it charges one of those capacitors when the switch is turned off the capacitor drains through a resistor. As long as there is a potential provided by the capacitor the chip reads that and continues to run it until the capacitor reaches a drained threshold then the chip shuts it off. You can explore this idea with a 555 time chip setting it up in astable circuit formation. Then by changing the value of the capacitor you change the frequency of the output and this is determined by the length of the charging and discharging of the capacitor.
Excellent
Hi Vince glad to see you got an ESR meter. But to explain how the thing works, It sends an AC signal through the capacitor and reads the loss of signal between the two probes. As such, do yourself a favour, you don't need to take the capacitor out. So you could have turned the board over and go bop bop on each cap , the reading would have been the same so job done. The chip is a logic gate . one of the capacitors will charge up, the power will be cut off it by some means with the logic gate, your potentiometer will be set across the capacitor and slowly discharge it Then at a set point the logic gate will switch the power back to the cap. Now when you buy electro caps for power supplies etc get Low ESR 105deg type the crap you get from China 9 out of 10 is dodgy. Your Panasonic caps are ok. Sorry but that board is crap, the heat of that resistor is normal for that. Also sucking moist air across that board is a bit daft.
That fan motor is an AC motor so it doesn't matter which way the wires are. That's why they aren't marked.
You could have drawn a simple diagram showing how everything was connected. Even if you could not do all (ie the integrated circuit) this would help better understand certain parts of the circuit both for you and the viewers. They could then point out what certain bits did in the circuit. ie the resistor/capacitor timing circuit (maybe). The black thing was a diode and so were the other small things next to the resistors. Wasnt going to watch this video but found it just as good as the console videos you do.
Thanks mate :-)
This was a nice little circuit. It would have shown how they got the 240ac to run the small chip and components. I'm just a tinkerer but the black diode would convert the 240ac to 120 dc (by cutting off the bottom of the waveform) so the waveform would look like _n_n_n_ . The big resistor would then be used (along with another resistor) to drop the voltage to the circuit to 5v (or whatever voltage was required). The other (smoothing) capacitor would be used to get the on/off dc to a more constant 5/12v by smoothing the waveform out which is what the ic would need. Nowadays I would guess they would use some sort of power transistor regulator to do this. I wonder what the new fans look like inside or if they are stuck in time using the same components. Just my thoughts and could be totally wrong. With a diagram, this would be easier to figure out and understand.
great video to watch ☑
Hi Vince
I'd think a fan could be designed to better dissipate heat from its own controller but then humidity is a big factor as well in the intended application of this one.
Had my fan of the same model apart for cleaning and realised that there was discolouring and brown marks on inside of the case and around the resistor on the board. Fan still works perfectly but heat damage was alarming should I replace it or leave it be?
The caps can be a higher voltage no problem. The 16v caps could be 25v or 35v as long as the uF is the same.
You had the front cover on upside down as there's a cut out to adjust the timer. They also fitted on the wall the wrong way up as the timer dial is on the top & not the bottom
Please note. That the silkscreen for caps which are + and - are not always true. Always check the way the cap is before removing it. Can have a bad day.
Electrolytic capacitors do not like heat, if it gets hot enough to discolour the board it is way to hot for the caps. I also always fit 105 deg C low ESR caps when ever I replace capacitors.
yea KEEP IT UP
I have the exact same board as that (exact same layout and part number) but with the Resistor in good cosmetic condition and it is a 22k as measured here.
The big cap on my board is 470 micro farad and the small is 47, well they used to be, both of mine are dead as well, i suspect the heat from the resistor is what is killing them.
Always use fresh solder first on removing old solder. The fresh solder reacts better with the old solder making it easier to remove. Invest in solder removing tape or a solder sucker. Check out my video on RC Hobbiest Extreme, I am currently working on a trail camara that had a faulty internal battery that is used for programming the camara . I discovered the battery had leaked and no longer worked. I was able to find a replacement and will be doing a part two this week. Will it fix the problem? You got me interested in doing my own repairs on electronics although I have to admit, I was raised around electronics and have been playing with solder since I was a kid. The chip is the timer ( look it up) the power is run through several diodes to bring the voltage down otherwize it would blow the chip. I am suprised they do not have a step down voltage regulator. That stupid resistor is what they are using to step down the voltage. Not a great idea. It is not smotthing it out so rough voltage is destroying it. Heat as you know is NOT a friend of any component. I wouldnt even use that fan in my home. One of those diodes are being used as a fuse as is common pratice on cheaper units. I see it used on coffee makers and have been able to fix a few due to a spike in current blowing the diode and essentually killing the power to the unit. Usually its right at the programming board.
You should try put those extra 2DS parts to good use! 😄✊
You either finished fixing everything in your house and now are looking for things to film, or your zombie ps4s rose from the grave and took over your house
Sorry Vince. I am going to slightly correct myself from my last comment. If you take the capacitor out you will heat the thing up and get a better reading than the thing actually has. So read it in circuit and only take it out if you have a bad reading
Where did you get your hot air machine from i have been after one for a while now but can't seem to find any reasonably cheap, could you give a recommendation?
Hi my mate Vince
Gold on the caps I see-they are audio grade-very good quality capacitors
tf kinda crap are you talking?!
what model is that small little laptop you use in your other videos? I'm fairly interested in buying one myself.
Hi, it is a GPD Pocket :-)
@@Mymatevince thank you!
I LIKE YOUR VIDS PLS DO PS4 FIXES
caps don't like to be to hot since the electrolyte tends to dry out and it just kills the cap. .
When you change the lengh of ravel you also change the values.......Just FYI
The first thing is to replace the very cheap Chinese junk electrolytic capacitors with high quality Japanese ones from RS or Farnell or Digi-Key or Mouser, that is likely the problem. Also you need to replace the resistor that overheated. Please do NOT buy capacitors and resistors on ebay, they will be counterfeit!
The caps are rated for 85°. But this resistor burnt and destroyed ist own case and you can see the resistive wire in it. So the caps got more than 100° hot. So no wonder that they are dead.
Think of all the poo vapor that passed though that fan. Maybe one day the fan was just like screw this, I'm out. :-P
if you get a resistor with a very low fault tolerance +/- 5% or less, it won't do that as much. plus, that resistor seems to have gone high resistance.
I'm suspicious that you were the one who broke your brothers fan just so you'd have a reason to use wago connectors.
Wago connectors are my favourite to work with. Makes solar work a doddle.
I would have just scraped the green solder resist and solder the leg of the capacitor to the track, quick, easy and less fiddly. But otherwise, well done!
I think the safer route would of been to demask and solder the leg into the unmasked area then routing the leg around other possible shorts.
Started to type a comment about the IC which is a 'NOR gate' then noticed this video is two years old...
Ac Motor in the fan so polarity doesn’t matter
just stoped the video and looked for someone that noticed it.... never watching video of him..first time i come across that guy... now i will remeber him... giving advices when he dont know the basics..
@@panagiotissimeoforidis5196 He's not giving advice, he says so from the start.
@@panagiotissimeoforidis5196 he says it from the start of the video. Pay attention fuck face.
Bearings are cheaper than capacitors, might aswell go the whole hog.
Cool
The construction and design of that unit is not suitable for use in a humid/wet environment. I would not recommend that it is used any further. There are serious design errors in the construction of the PCB and the components used.
Crazy designed board. very small tracks for live voltage and there is a large one that gets small and sometimes there are small tracks and sometimes big ones...
I guess someone hit the auto-route button when designing this mess on a friday evening and called it good
Hi I have a ps vita that had some water spilt In to it any chance you can try and fix it as it was my sons birthday present I know he would be over the moon 😀
Hi can you do a video of how I can link two player games with two xbox one s consoles on the same network? Do they both share the same TV screen please? I can use the xbox one s and one our our pc gaming towers but my kids want an xbox each...
Great video and you proved that you could fix it, but for safety reasons I would fit a new one.
Looks like you had the cover on upside down There's a little cut out to adjust the Potentiometer without removing the cover
Hi, it looks like that but that little hole it a drain hole I think for any build up of moisture. The potentiometer is more to the middle so the hole doesn't line up :-)
Good job. Personally I’d have kept it to 1 minute … I find bathroom fans annoying and use lots of energy.
I have a iPad Air and it’s having trouble connecting to WiFi and Bluetooth I have searched long and hard what the fault could be and I have found there’s a problem with the WiFi chip that’s in side the iPad I don’t trust my self trying to fix it and I trust you would you consider taking a look at it and trying to fix it ? If not no problem just think it could make a good video considering you have never don’t a iPad get back to me please
You need to extend that heavy resistor "legs" and take him out to the fan area, to blow extra heat from him. That not good if you fan catches on fire.
This won't actually fix the problem, as the resistor is always getting hot as it is the power supply for the control system. It doesn't just get hot when the fan is on.
Wow, not a good power supply for logic, why don't use cheapest linear regulator with small heatsink? Is it worth save 1-2 dollars to burn down home and get sued from insurance company? Or at least add 2 more resistors w same power to make more surface to dissipate heat? I mean if you have 1 resistor of 22 kOhms w 3 Watt power, why don't use 3 of 68 kOhms w 3 Watts in parralel and make some holes in case to make dissipate heat from them?
@@Lightning666 i don't know any linear regulators rated at 250 to 300 volt input as this would require. It would also produce as much heat as a resistor. What it really needs is a transformer, but doesn't due to cost.
Here you gowww.google.com/search?q=%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9+%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA+%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVidu9uaPfAhVECSwKHQpJDvsQ_AUIDigB&biw=1920&bih=1005
@@Lightning666 ahhhh. These all use a capacitive rather than resistive dropper. Now i understand. Yes this would be much better with or without a linear regulator.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitive_power_supply
looks like the ic is doing timing function.
4000 series CMOS logic gate 4001 if I rember....simple four pack of two input gates...probably only one gate used....no the power supply is. Resistor dropper...240 RMS( 315 volt peak) to 15 DC. Via diode( 1 N4007black diode thing) to 330 u F capacitor. Followed by 1 k resistor onto
15V zener diode (glass diode ) to "0 V" which in this case is also neutral....the supply for the chip is 0V pin 7 15V pin 14(taken across that zener diode
Fixing is cheaper than buying a new exhaust fan - not including your time - the hole thru capacitors was cheap
My bathroom fan won't turn off. How do I stop it?
why not run with an externall adapter
you also want to be careful even though they have the right ratings the temperature ratings is another thing you want to make sure is correct as well if you put an 85 degree c rated cap on the 105 degree c environment the cap for sure will pop. So make sure you have the correct capacitance , voltage , and temperature rating.
hi
Does anyone know what the song is?
Timer relay is faulty.
Send it to @bigclivedotcom
my 3rd party alexa is not working very well it keeps disconnecting to the WiFi my dad tride to fix it but he did not take it apart i dont know if its our WiFi or what but i was wondering if you could try to fix it if i get my parents permission if you fix it i dont need it back we got new ones to feel free to keep it if you want, i will post if i get permission i will send with a charger
like if you want to see this in a video if i get permission
also like if you want a video on fixing a TV!
also it might just not be a reliable brand so it might not even be broken
no
i dunno what im doin
Doesnt run on what?
208th
i have some ideas,
maybe make like a starter set with tools and you buy the stuff pack them together then sell them for more, but its brands that u trust
also, maybe you can try to find sponsors
last thing, i bet loads of people wold like it if you had murch i know i wold if you want me to make some designs i could find a way to put them here