Oxalic Acid Mite Treatment Research, Part 1 of 3
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- Research projects on varroa mite treatments with oxalic acid are reviewed with Jennifer Berry and Lewis Bartlett at the University of Georgia. Part one in a three part series.
Oxalic Acid Mite Treatment Research, Part 2 of 3
• Oxalic Acid Mite Treat...
Bob, you are doing such a great service for fellow beekeepers. All I can say is thanks, and I hope to be able to shake your hand some day.
Thank you.
Excellent discussion all the way around! I cannot wait to read that paper when it publishes. VERY interesting! I completely agree that climate zones where we all keep bees often have us coming up with widely varying results in mite controls. I read Jennifer Berry's report regarding the shop-towel method not working. Because of bee drift from colony to colony, particularly during many treatment regimens, I've been strongly inclined to treat all colonies at once to prevent that being an escape route for the mites. So glad that's being considered here. Thank you, much food for thought. Wishing you all the best.
Hi Frederick, thanks.
Bob, Thank you for the video. I found the OAV worked for me last year. I noticed three things. 1. When I treated in the evening I had a greater mite drop from the hive. 2. I had a greater mite drop when I taped up ALL the seams on the hive, I really made sure the hive was closed up for 15 minutes before removing the vaporizer. I also had to treat 7 times before the mite drop really came down... All three hives survived the winter with very low was mite counts (zero on alcohol wash) .
Informative and a look behind the scenes. Thank you Mr. Binnie.
Thanks Bob for putting on YT the most consistently educational bee videos out there. These are brilliant articles that even a very average beekeeper like myself can absorb and learn from.
excellent! can`t wait to hear the rest too!!! Pat
Outstanding interview and very timely information. Thank you for the time commitment and all you do for the beekeeper.
Excellent info! Thank you for posting.
Thank you for sharing this Bob. . Mite control is so important for Beeks. My plan for OAV here soon is 6 treatments at a 4 to 5 day interval. I plan to do a mite wash before and after.
Great video Mr Binnie. Thanks to you and all who participated. Good stuff.... Phillip Hall
Thank you so much for all the information you put out there. So very helpful
Very interesting and informative. Thanks for the information. Ready for more.
Bobby great information
I started use Strip's from Lyson they are make on glycerine and I have great result last year.
Right now I put in every one my Nucs.
This is outstanding information. Thank you.
Really interesting info. Can’t wait to hear the rest of the interview
Working on it now. Thanks.
Wow a lot to think about. Thank you for the information
Very interesting, thank you. Determining best practices can be a puzzle sometimes.
Really Enjoyed all your videos. It is very nice to see your knowledge sharing so much of your experience those of us who are just starting out as beekeepers.
The Argentinian guy's name that Jennifer was looking for is Maggi (et. al); He used chipboard strips in both dry and humid environments. Randy Oliver was experimenting with shop towels and has now moved on to using new matrices that allow for higher doses in the extended release application experiments. They worked for me in both New England and in California. I have spoke with others who have had success with extended release in humid environments (e.g. the Caribbean and Bermuda). Just recently, it looks like some of the scientists mentioned in this video are willing to reconsider the new dosage and matrix so maybe some new tests in DC, AL and GA could include monitoring the in-hive humidity as well. Thank you for this, Bob! Even if the oxalic extended release proves to only keeps mites levels the same, i think it belongs in the IPM toolbox to be used as a prophylactical measure when mite infestation levels are low.
👍
Great information, thanks for sharing
Thank you
Great talk!
thank you...
Good information thanks Bob
Bob, Great video. Up here in SW VA, our environment is similar to yours in VA. You tend to be 5*F or so higher than we are but our humidity is about the same. I like the idea of treating the apiary as one large colony, it takes the guesswork out of which hives to attend to. As a first-year beekeeper, I am still having problems identifying the queen within the hive. But as long as I see brood and larvae I feel safe that the hive is still producing well. I treated my 5 hives back in April and May with Formic Pro when the temperatures stayed below 85*f. Have heard you and others complain about Apivar failing you last year, so I did not attempt to try it. Hopefully it is a problem the manufacturer has addressed since then and corrected.
Craig in VA / SML Bees
Thanks so much for this Interview. Looking forward to the second part. Since some years i stick to removal of brood to then apply ox with great success. But still there are allways some hives sind month later with very high varroa population. I allways thought it came from migration like explained.
Thank you...very much for information...about bees
Good stuff, Thanks
Outstanding information. Can’t wait to hear the rest
I agree. I only use osclic acid vapor in late fall to winter. No brood and 2 treatments. I try around 2 or 4 day.
Last winter i did 2 OA 4 days apart before i set into shed for winter. This spring when they came out i did strips. i had a 0 mite when i tested and when the State did their tests. Now this year will do same before i shed but have more to treat and hope i have same results. This year also tho did cut down 2 hives out of tree on farm that where mite bombs but moved them to a location away to treat and kill mites and those i made sure where broodless when OA treated and they now when tested before flow hit where at a 0 load. after flow and last honey is pulled i will test multi hives to see where they stand again. My hope is the way i treat keeps working but have to remember i am in upper mid west in brutal cold winters
Awesome information thank your for posting and also for donating colonies for the research to come to these conclusions
Thank you Bob! I really like the concept of the whole apiary being the super organism, not just the individual hive. It makes a lot of sense. That's why dead-outs are so devastating to the apiary, even with resistant colonies. We are losing valuable genetics needed for the survival of the species with this Darwinistic approach of "set it and forget it" beekeeping. If a beek chooses not to treat their colonies, that's their business. I just wish that they would manage their colonies and when they see a failing colony, at the very least, requeen it with resistant stock before it becomes a dead-out and destroys other resistant colonies in the area that would have otherwise made it with moderate levels of mites before being overrun.
Ty for ipm definition
Bob, thank you! This is great information.
Hello Bob great video. I started my apiguard treatments today. I'm going to try treating with oxalic acid vaporation at night. When I have a brood break this winter.
Hi Mark. Last winter we treated in the day time shooting for temperatures between 42f and 48 where the bees wouldn't be clustered tightly but also would not be flying yet. If it's warmer, you are right, after dark would be best.
Great interview Bob and Jesse! This type of information reinforces the idea that you cannot get too comfortable with what you think you know. I’m interested to learn what regiment and method Ms. Berry and the gentleman recommend for a more complete approach.
Hi Greg, I hope all is well in Ohio. Part two and three are coming out over the next week with a lot more information to think about.
I realize this is only part 1 of 3 so if the observations I bring up are addressed in subsequent videos, I apologize for jumping the gun.
An important observation is that in this study OAV treatments 5 days apart halted growth but did not result in a significant reduction of the mite population until a minimum of 7 treatments. Jennifer Berry points out (2:00) that any treatment must be continuously effective. OAV is only effective for phoretic mites, so the critical factor is how long after treatment do the OA crystals persist at a concentration high enough to kill phoretic mites?
Dr. Bartlett looked at the maximum reproduction of a single female mite, the mite life span, the number of daughters, and the length of time to breed a daughter, to estimate the average time for a newly emerged mite to enter a brood cell as 3.5 days (11:05). This is not empirical evidence, but it is consistent with observations by beekeepers posted on bee chat rooms.
To reduce the mite population, it is important that the concentration of OA crystals does not drop below the lethal threshold for phoretic mites over an entire brood cycle (24 days for drones). This can be done with 5 treatments at 3-day intervals. For the purposes of this analysis let’s refer to the brood as 1 (a just laid egg) through 24 (an emerging drone). Mites generally only enter brood cells just before they are capped on day 9.
Treatment on day 1 should kill phoretic mites throughout the hive, mites in brood 1-9 since these cells are open and the brood 22-24 since they emerge during the 3-day interval that the OA crystals are still at a lethal concentration. Treatment on day 4 kills emerging mites from brood 19-21. Treatment on day 7 kills emerging mites from brood 16-18. Treatment on day 10 kills emerging mites from brood 13-15. Treatment on day 13 kills emerging mites from brood 10-12.
Lastly, to treat the maximum number of bees it is important to treat when most of the bees are in the hive, so late evening, at night, or early morning. And since mites rapidly migrate to adjacent hives (17:10) it is important to treat the entire apiary not just a single hive.
Questions for future studies.
How long after treatment do the OA crystals persist at a concentration high enough to kill phoretic mites?
How quickly after emerging will mites enter a brood cell?
What is the minimum number to OAV treatments to reduce the mite population by 90+%?
Influence of climatic factors on effectiveness of OAV (e.g. Georgia vs Michigan vs Arizona)
Is the commonly used 3% mite infestation threshold too high to begin treatment?
Under-rated comment. Every three days is what I do as well, but you expressed your reasoning better than I could.
The results of the studies here should be of no surprise to anyone that knows much about wildlife biology. Over crowded conditions of any animal on earth spells trouble in time. At the hobby level, I've found a lot of benefit from brood breaking within my colonies, and social distancing between my colonies. Neither is appealing to the commercial beek that needs 4 - 6 hives to the pallet, and the shortest distance possible between pallets. There is no magic pill that will ever cure that problem.
Very interesting 60% of my mites are capped, scary. Thanks Bob
I think that the percentage is even higher, so the effect of any treatment is low while the covered brood is present.
This mite problem you have touch on before and suggested using canola oil, eucalyptus oil etc, can this not be misted using a hand sanitizer spray bottle into polished frames and on the bees
Thanks for the video trying to determine whether you can treat with a silica acid at night time because more of the bees would be home
I don't know about silica acid specifically but treating at night to catch all the bees, yes.
Interested to hear the follow up on your double strength, triple hit treatment from last fall.
We're going to be doing more mite checks soon.
Seems like an extended release OA (shop towel) method that can be used with honey supers on followed by an Amitraz treatment in the fall would be ideal. Keep the mite population low during the summer and then kill them in the fall. I’ve had really good luck using fall and spring Amitraz with OA vapor during the brood break in the winter. Having a long release OA treatment that is EPA approved would be icing on the cake.
It seems like in the southeast you would need to combine OA with an artificial brood break to be effective at reducing mite loads with that particular treatment.
That would be the best case in the deep south.
I did this two summers back in michigan in conjunction with OTS splits. I pulled the queens and treated 21-24 days later. 90% of my colonies survived that winter. Used MAQS last year and followed all the rules…….. lost 75% of my colonies
Finding a queen in a double deep and caging her for weeks and then going back and releasing her while it’s 100 deg with 90% humidity X a few hundred hives. Probably not going to happen 🙅♂️
They do it in Germany, Austria, ltaly... on 1000, 2000, 3000 hives. In Germany they use only formic and oxalic acid treatments for decades now. And nobade is thinking about Amitraz. In ltaly varroa got resistent to it, and that will happened to your varroa too. Then it won't be a problem.. to find and cage 1000 queens
Good work. The world needs more of this research. If people don't think they have mites just start pulling drones out of their cells.
You should really consider putting a warning to your viewers that you are about to stop in that conversation!! Like tap the break light and warn us or something bob! 😂 wow! Seriously, great information, and another great video!!!
If one has it treat them all. I like it
Thanks bob, great info 👍🏻
good stuff bob...thanks........im in texas and very hot and weather has been not good for pollen and nectar...raining every other day....over and over........bees are not laying much at all...do you find that pretty common with no pollen coming in?
Fresh incoming pollen is the most stimulating thing when it comes to brood rearing. Without it brood rearing will always slow down.
Thx all around for a strong effort..
The reasoning in respect to the number of grams per box with the unfounded opinion that 2,3,4 grams may not be approved.. so the 4 gram per box was not tried do to an opinion... without full test...for a better word...pushing the envelop is what is needed...the number of treatments per gram per box must be completed before an opinion can be formed....and as far as not treating all the colonies with the same number of grams do to different mite load...this is why testing should be applied after treatment to see if any out layers require additional treatment...lets get the testing done and sort it out latter.... it's seems a lot of talking as usuall and no action...thx to bob the only one there that toke action with two grams per box..the proof was shown when additional testing was complete after treatment....these people will talk just to hear them self's... it's obvious that it will take beekeepers with yrs of experience that will do off label treatments of products with there own control groups....im sorry.. im usually above this but this group blows a lot of hot air with no results...its been like this for yrs and yrs....i love bees..thats all i think about but they are bugs so lets test the shit out of them and get some results so well can save millions upon millions...
You would think they could kill the mites off really easily but that’s not the case hopefully one day they come out with something and mites will be just a note in bee keeping history thanks for sharing buddy one day I hope to start keeping bees if my health problems ever get better im gonna try a couple hobby hives for personal honey and fun thanks
Last year I started OAV treatments in Aug. Was going with 5 treatments 5 days apart. The mite drop count was still too high and all over the place. 56 23 89 137 368 95 37 29 58 67 So I continued OAV for another 5 treatments just to keep at them till it was Cool enough here in hot dry Canyon Country, So Cal to use Formic Pro. I used the (gentler) 1 strip between the two boxes for 10 days then repeat. The mite drop count on Dec. 27th was Zero. Then tucked them in for Winter. Treated with Formic again in March. Then started monthly OAV in June. Now back to OAV every 5 days as the count is up again.
I tried the blue shop towel - oxalic acid treatment and I found it pretty much useless in central Texas.
Can those guys make a picture of a mite that received oxcalic acid with an electron-microscope or are they just guessing how that works.
Next year i want to experiment with aroma in pollenpatties to "cloack" the cells via smell to prevent the mite from even entering.
I never seen a picture how exactly formic or oxcalic affect the mites.
In the second half of this interview I asked how oxalic works and Lewis they don'y know.
*sits impatiently waiting for the rest of the interview to drop! Lol
Another excellent video, you seem to hang out with the other smart people a lot lol
I've been lucky that way. They tolerate me well.
Can a mite lay for several brood cycles. Perhaps the mite that enters the cell to lay eggs emerges with the bee and can immediately enter another cell to lay eggs. She would be mature enough.
I think what you are saying is correct. The foundress(original mother mite) can/does re enter a cell shortly after emerging. The off spring are phoretic for a days to mature before entering a cell. Hence, if many/most of foundress mites are not being killed in 4-7 day treatment cycles, then mite load level is maintained but not lowered.
*Thx4 Sharing interesting content Bob* 👍🇺🇲
Could you explain in detail the researchers brood break of putting the queen upstairs above the excluder
I believe they isolate the queen for at least 14 days, then remove the frame she was on, and treat with oxalic at 21 days. At 21 days all of the the original brood will have hatched but the new brood that started when she was released will not be sealed yet. This allows the oxalic vaporization treatment to be very affective because all mites are exposed.
@@bobbinnie9872 thank you!
Need to bring down the Mite level to below a level (for long enough) to reduce the viral background load to reduced the opportunity for viral variants to develop like they already have. Virus variants are going to the real problem if we accept 2% background load of VD.
If you want to know the exact miteload you need to exam the capet brood!
Their findings are only as reliable as their sampling method. The unreliability of sugar shakes and alcohol washes is declared in the final moments of this video. It will be interesting to know how mite levels were determined.
What time of day did you treat and what vaporizer did you use ?
We treated in the daytime with temperatures in the low to mid 40s f and used a VM Vaporizer.
When are you going to finish up the series don't you have one of two with Ray latner ??
I agree 💯
The video on the second half of our visit with Ray is finished (I think). I give the people a video is about a chance to look at it before I post it, and Ray has been very busy and then on vacation so he hasn't seen it yet. Hopefully it won't be long.
Just so I'm clear, and I realize the paper is not yet published, but their data suggest that sublimating 2-3 grams of oxalic acid dihydrate per hive box regardless of deep, medium, or shallow and applying it every 5 days for at least 5 cycles is what is being recommend for varroa. Is this correct?
Hi Adam. It's 2-3 for a deep box, adjustments should be made for smaller boxes. The current recommendation is every 3 to 4 days.
Has there been any research in feeding the bees sugar syrup with OA in it. Kind of like the dribble method but letting the bees take it down themselves during the spring buildup.
I'm not familiar with any research on that.
@@bobbinnie9872 thank you for replying. It's means a lot. I wonder if a bee lab would be interested in a trial.
@@gonzalezaaronm I'll bet someone at a lab somewhere is thinking of this.
Is it possible to simulate a longer winter to extend the amount of time for not producing brood?
Put your bees in a walk-in refrigerator or a room with a good AC. It's a bit expensive though.
The ultimate solution is to breed resistant bees. East African bees seem to be resistant but is it a genetic trait, a quirk of the environment, or a learned behavior?
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0094459
@@joelwhite4963 thank you for the reply I’m just starting out and just trying to learn
@@pinkprine1249 I'm not being sarcastic, just frustrated. Look at WVFishkeeper's comment above.
@@joelwhite4963 oh I didn’t take it that way.
As Joel White mentioned a cool and dark storage unit, properly set up, does work.
Hi! varroa came from the east, soviet union beekeepers were the first to use oxalic acid against varroa
how they applied!?
@@patrickwalther1074 sublimation
@@Wave120 caged queen?
As a pest control business owner up by Chicago, To kill a bug, on a bug without effecting the host ... seems impossible.
If only we could come up with something like Frontline for bees.
Obviously fipernol wouldn't work.
Lewis Bartlett 👍
Smart man. You'll like him in the next two parts.
Sandy and I had supper with him in Pittsburg with John Yakim. He thinks at different levels, I can’t keep up to his wavelength but I can pretend lol
What they are saying is exactly why we need to study these types of things regionally .
@@aCanadianBeekeepersBlog The nice thing about Lewis is he treats us beekeepers with respect. He's one of those people that allows me to say I have friends in high places.
Hey Bob… how do male varroa attract females to mate?
Do females varroa emit a pheromone that attracts males?
If this is the case why not produce traps based on varroa mite pheromones. Or nuc males to make them sterile so they fire blanks.
Just a thought.
@@ytgmbutler … thanks! No wonder bloody difficult to control.
Hey! they have worked with argentinian researchers, it would be really nice to know their names, they couldnt remember in the video. I would be a great way to help my hives.
Should be hitting the mites more frequently then 5 days apart with 7 treatments, try 2 days apart. Hit em more frequently and shorter interval's.
I believe the current thinking is every three or four days because mites will reenter new cells at between 4 and 13 days after exiting the old cell. Of course more may not be a bad thing when we're talking about mites.
I didn't recognize Jessie with new haircut!
In a strong hive the varroa is sexually mature earlier because it feeds better .... five days is too long a period ... that is why the strongest hives suffer...that is mine experience.
Сенцов привет! Ждем перевод))
What is your opinion on heat treatment?
Hi Hunter. I know it works from research I've seen. Soon, I hope to interview a researcher friend of mine in North Carolina that has been looking at this.
@@bobbinnie9872 I look foward to that. In San Diego most bee keepers that I know did not get much honey this year. And the removal season didn't last as long as last year. I'm getting my bees ready for almond season. I hope to get my hands on the heat treatment one day. You take care thanks for responding!
Hunter, Randy Oliver says it’s not effective because it doesn’t work for the foragers
czcams.com/video/F8FYf-0NvH8/video.html
@@michaelshelnutt3534 Thats a fair point. Perhaps it would be more effective if applied in the late evening or even night? That's worth a case study. I do know there is is correlation between farmers spraying pesticides at night when the bees aren't forging. He did say the treatment is still in its infancy so it could be perfected then again it could not be.
🇹🇷👍🤝
Sounds like the mites are winning to me.
No doubt, the struggle is still on.
Ohios average humidity is 75%,,I ALWAYS have humidty problems in my hydroponic room & outside greenhouse,, mold on North side of trees up to 3ft off ground,,VERY LOW hive beetles an mites in this area,Ashtabula,why i dont know??
No one has ever told me how long mites liive
Good question. I'll ask Lewis when I see him in a few weeks.
I think it's time to learn when to cage queens in your area and condicions. And the right way how to use formic for a different treatment. I don't understand why it has to be done all over again in US. We're doing it 20 years.. can't you just continue from wher it's now
Part of the problem is bee’s or rather the mites are building up a resistance to formic. OA vaporization still seems the most effective. OA glycerin pads seem as effective as placing a rhubarb leaf in the hive. It’s not dropping the numbers just keeping from growing larger.
@Jan Leunissen - There are several articles out there on the subject. Most were written in the early 2000’s.
This articles touches on it but also states that alternating treatments is a good way to reduce resistance to any one treatment.
pheromite.com/varroa-treatments-mode-action-resistance/
@Jan Leunissen - In fact, amitraz is still the most effective miticide used in the USA, despite resistance having been reported two decades ago. This seems to point to the fact that one single mutation in one gene is not enough to provide resistance. Although point mutations in amitraz-resistant organisms have been identified, evidence from a cattle tick indicates that resistance to amitraz occurs both by mutations in the octopamine receptor and enhanced metabolism in getting rid of amitraz [21]-[27]. In spite of the lower resistance to amitraz by the varroa mite, alternating amitraz with other treatments is still necessary.
Hey, no coffee cups allowed in the lab!!! Safety office will nail your @$$!!
In the northeast many beekeepers will bite onto the first bit of information they hear and disregard anything that follows. We have many beekeepers that make there own shop towel concoction and apply it (illegally), only to lose there colonies and then blame anything and everything else while saying "I didn't have a mite problem." Meanwhile the rest of us focus heavily on the time of year their hives are collapsing so we can deal with the mite bombs. Sample mite loads, treat as needed, resemble to ensure efficacy....hobby beekeepers need to leave the experiments to those who are qualified!!!!!
I totally agree!
@Jan Leunissen I agree many beekeepers have great ideas. My comment was specifically talking about hobby beekeepers doing things they don't have the resources or experience for....please note I didnt say scientist...I said those who are qualified.
@Jan Leunissen 👍
It's not Mr. Randy Oliver who came up with the OA in glycerin recipe! For some unknown reason he decided to tweak a working technique into a multi-year, unsuccessful project. Due credit has to be given to the collaborative effort of the food scientists and the beekeepers in Argentina for developing, thorough testing, making the recipe public, and for manufacturing the final product.
Amitraz ! Reason of Cancer. Red beard man working for chemical companys.
ipm just help more people Cancer.
Nail biter 🤓…. For me anyway…
How can you guys have such an academic discussion with huge stacks of pies behind you??? ;)
They do look like pies.🙂
Kind of hard to take the guy serious with him wearing a hog nose ring.