This EV Winter Driving Myth Is Wrong & All Too Often Misunderstood By Most!
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
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#Ford #Lightning #Fordf150 - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I love the direction TFL has taken. Quality information about real world experiences in every corner of the car market has always been your motto, and you’ve adapted it so well to electrification
This was a great video. I'm on my second winter in my bolt and for my typical use my efficiency has dropped about 20%. I typically drive less than 20 miles a day and usually in short trips 5 to 6 miles or less. I have found these short trips to less efficient in the winter as energy is constantly being spent heating up the cabin and the battery. The efficiency improves on longer trips were the battery no longer needs to be heated and the heater is just maintaining the cabin temp. In the Winter on longer trips (20+mi) or if the car has been preconditioned I will tend to average around 3.3 mi/kWh. When the just hop in the cold car and go for a short 5mi drive my efficiency may be a low as 2.8 mi/kWh. The fact the car is less efficient in these situation is really of no concern from a range perspective even efficiency were cut in half. My car lives in a garage and is always plugged in when I'm at home so the ev works great for me. EV's aren't practical yet for every application but if they work for your specific needs they are great.
I've noticed the same with my Bolt, and my commute is also the same. Though I pre-condition most of the time before I leave, so that eats into the efficiency score because the car is basically using tons of energy to move 0 miles.
I set my charging schedule so it completes charging right about 30 minutes before I leave. This way the battery is still warm from the charging session. I believe that and the preconditioning helps a bit.
Even when it's cold, however, it's still cheaper than filling up a gas tank.
I think the biggest issue is charging the battery and there are only two instances where that's an issue:
* going on a long road trip, of let's say 300 miles or more (which I personally haven't done in over 10 years)
* if you don't live in a house and don't have access to at least a parking spot with an EV charging station
I think people should remember that ICE technology has been around for a century now. Give EV tech 100 years and you won't even have to plug in to charge.
@@seanplace8192 I usually precondition with the car plugged in. This doesn't seem to affect my efficiency score. Still uses the same amount of energy I'm just not taking it from the battery.
I wonder if the bolt scores lower on that chart because a bolt owner is less likely to own a garage then say an Audi owner..
@@michaelcharach That's an interesting thought and I doubt things like that were taken into consideration. I would guess the type of heater is probably the most impactful difference. The bolt, being older tech, uses a resistance heater. The newer and higher end cars are probably using heat pumps.
I watched Hoovie's video yesterday and I immediately thought of your experience with the F-150 Lightning and was hoping you would come out with a response and here it is. I love that you guys are based on science and real world science and not on conjecture and opinion.
Same here, and Hoovie is glossing over the potential issues with the Hummer EV, that Roman went through with TFL's.
Tyler owns that truck and he’s driving it just like anybody else would. He started his day with a full battery the truck said he could go 140 something miles and it just didn’t happen not even close. It’s about as real world as you can get.
@@markmonroe7330 If you go back and watch the hoovie video, he actually started near 80% full battery, not 100%. No one is knocking Tyler, I love Hoovie's garage. Just this review was more science based. That is all.
He should have started full and preconditioned. That said it was a very real world scenario. You don't always have access to charging and cold temperatures are normal in a large part of the US. The real problem is Ford limiting sales of the large battery trucks by cutting out the PRO extended battery model.
Arguing semantics here. Percentage or est range doesn’t matter. Can you go as far on a warm sunny day vs cold? Answer is unequivocally no.
Also, majority of Americans can’t park in their garage because there’s stuff in it. Parking outside is realistic as you can get. Hoovie showed the articles with the unrealistic ways of getting more range like not turning on your heater. Ok Ford.
The Hummer was shown on his video to have waaaay more range from the get go. I’m sure Hoovie expects the same percentage drop in range with hot vs cold weather- it’s just that the Hummer has more range to begin with so when you lose range, it’s not as much as the Lightning.
Did you guys watch Tim's video from yesterday on Pickup Truck Plus SUV Talk channel? He was charging the Hummer EV over night and it quit charging because it got too cold outside. You guys really should do some testing and make videos on it to get data on what actually happens in the cold.
This is probably you're best overall video you done this year. This explains a lot and should be a promoted video that gets revisited yearly.
You guys did a great job explaining the differences between ice and evs in a very approachable and balanced way. Owning an ev, these are questions I get asked regularly. I'll be sure to recommend your channel and this video next time the event questions come up.
I don't trust the battery percentage on my phone. That's also just an estimate.
Exactly
Battery life sux in cold.
How cold was it?
Now, just imagine if your phone tried to estimate hours until empty, how inaccurate it would be. That is their point.
Wow! Tommy had done a great job of drilling that EV knowledge into Papa! I remember those first conversations boggling Roman’s mind. Now, to hear him talk with such confidence is impressive!
Okay, guys, I can tell you for a fact that my 2020 Leaf (150 mile range) went into limp mode after 70 miles on a particularly cold Colorado day(about 15F). I had it garaged and plugged in just prior to driving to my destination, then it sat for a few hours, then i tried to drive home. i dont remember what it told me about range remaining, but when it went into limp mode it was at about 7% battery. i limped 6 miles home with the heater off freezing my butt off....So for *some* EVs, winter temps really mess up range. I absolutely agree that gasoline engines get much less efficient in certain conditions as well, but gasoline has *so much more* energy in it, its no big deal wasting all of that because you still go hundreds of miles on a tank. Not so with a battery.
I have nothing to dispute there, other than I wasn't going 75 even half the time. Of my 64 mile journey, 5 was in city (less than 40mph), 30 at 60-65mph, and 30 at 75mph. The windy winters here in Kansas created a pretty nasty headwind on the return trip (about 20mph) which made a dramatic difference than the trip up.
I think the reason why the Lightning has been such a "Lightning Rod" of controversy is Ford's marketing and the political nature or it, with elected officials wanting to mandate an EV only future, which doesn't work for everybody.
Hoovie you're 100% correct, EVs are now driven by politics and not reality. The focus is almost totally on the EV itself and NOT the total lack of infrastructure to support them in most areas of the country. Not to mention most electricity in the US comes from the burning of fossil fuels. Here in NH our electric rate just went up 112% and now we're told we could see rolling blackouts this winter in an area that sees -20 or colder temps. Priority is keeping your family warm not expensive EVs. I would love to own an EV one day, and I say that as someone working on a 5MW solar project in CT. But we all have a long way to go before it's practical for most people...
Hoovie! I’m surprised you didn’t mention the leaking T-top style windows in the Hummer EV in your video.
Such underrated content on all of the TFL channels. Exemplifies what content creators should be. Not destroying vehicles for views or telling us a sob story for pity money. Thank you too everyone at TFL!
I appreciate that you guys watch other channels to keep your ‘ear to the ground’ on what other videos your viewers are watching. Keep it up!
Speed definitely brings down the range significantly. I think my model 3 is rated for 212 miles of range in perfect conditions. Because of the resistive heating and a lead foot, I usually see 120-130 real world range. Which is sufficient for any scenario work wise because I can just charge at home and it will be ready by morning to go again or supercharge if I’m traveling.
EVs aren’t for everyone but ones that choose the path just get to enjoy the new experiences.
Since lithium ion cells have a life of 1,000 miles that means your pack will need replacement by 120,000 miles at that rate.
@@erictuffelmire6826if you mean 1,000 charges then no. It’s full life isn’t rated for 1,000 cycles, but that after 1,000 cycles you should have about 80% usable capacity after degradation
Good job guys! Covered a lot of ground with easy-to-understand descriptions of issues and technology people need to know about RV's.
I'm amazed at the number or people who are vehemently against Ev's! I'm sure a little education on the subject is what they are missing.
Great video! Thanks so much for explaining all this. I have a lighting with the standard range battery and I appreciate the tips! You guys rock!
AGREED!!!. Excellent presentation Roman and Andre. Great Job dispelling a lot of misinformation about EV's. Battery percentage is the KEY.
Which is one the reason I get so frustrated with certain makes, but especially Ford, for going out of their way to making percentage hidden from most standard views. Mile estimates are great when you understand how they work, but the workings vary by make. For example, Tesla is the one huge exception where range estimate is NOT based on driving history but rather typical or rated range times battery remaining.
Thanks for making this video. So many myths out there that people don't understand. Unfortunately certain media outlets will probably take that guys story and run with it (like they did with his towing experience) to push a negative ev narrative, especially with ev trucks.
Great video and education on what you have all experienced. Appreciate everything you all do ! I am still not sure an EV Lightning or Rivian is right for me, however this really puts things in perspective. For now I will hold onto my F150-Tremor. This information really does help.
I'm on the 5th winter of commuting with my Spark EV. An overlooked factor in range is Air Density. 32 degree air is about 10% more dense than 80 degree air (and dont get me started on your mountain air density vs us flat-landers). Conditioning is a factor too, but i can turn that off bundle up and use the seat heater down to about 25 degrees, below that range drops enough to make me nervous (and cold) on my 56 mile round trip. I also stay off the Interstate, choosing the 2-lane 55mph route. In the Summer I average about 5 miles/kwh, in the winter 4 m/kwh or a little over.
My ICE F150 loses range in the winter too (winter fuel, wind resistance etc). The EV problem still comes down to lack of range and charge times that are too long. My F150 goes 600 miles on a tank and refills in 5 minutes. That’s where EV’s need to be before they are the ideal replacement for most ICE owners. Why are mfgs not developing more plug in hybrid vehicles to bridge the gap while EV tech is further developed? Would love a plug in hybrid F150 that I only use gas in when towing or on long road trips.
Well done a very interesting video. This goes for any vehicle driven during the winter pre-tripping is important. I have a 3/4 ton truck with a Duramax diesel, it is kept in my garage, it is plugged in two hours before it’s needed. It has a block heater and two oil pan heaters, one for the engine and one for the transmission. I also use a radiator cover to reduce warm up time and retain engine heat.
I live in Northern Ontario so winter temperatures are low and we use winter diesel. Also check your tire pressure as in cold weather they drop significantly.
Exceptionally well done. Your EV experience and knowledge enabled you dispel some common range myths while realistically highlighting some key pluses and minuses regarding EV range. Related to range, I would like to point out that the window sticker range estimates are from an EPA test that is common for each class of EV vehicles. More importantly, the EPA test is for one version/model of a vehicle. For example, the standard range Lightning comes in the Pro, XLT, and Lariat models. However, the EPA test was reportedly done on the Pro model only. This indicates that the XLT and Lariat models get progressively less range because they have more weight, more battery-draining options and they also have more aerodynamic drag (e.g., running boards which, the Pro model does not include). There are four key common manufacturer-caused EV range loss functions: (1) weight, (2) options requiring battery power to operate, (3) operating temperature range variation. and (4) aerodynamic drag. Ironically, the running boards cause a three-way drain because they add weight, use battery power for their lights, and make the Lightning less aerodynamic. Your excellent summary also highlights operator-caused range loss when the vehicle is driven aggressively and/or when the vehicle is not prepared optimally for colder weather use. Your comparisons to ICE range loss similarities are especially important because they are often overlooked by people considering an EV. Using the Lightning as an example again, apparently the more you pay for standard range (SR) battery models, the more range you lose. The same appears to be true for the extended range (ER) battery models.
Thank you. I was nicely surprised by this. You covered a lot of variables.
It wasn't really detailed, but you simplified a difficult subject down for the non ev people out there.
I really enjoyed this video/discussion. No fake arguments, "no, you're wrong, no YOU'RE wrong!" back and forths and no father and son bickering. Just an honest discussion between two car guys.
I drove Tesla for 6 years in the Canadian prairies. It gets to -35C here. It takes planning to own and drive in winter here. A garage is a big plus also. I now have two hybrids instead of two Teslas, much less stressful.
That doesn't seem like the best move. Seems like you should have one hybrid and one Tesla.
@@newscoulomb3705 I wouldn’t recommend Tesla due to my experience of having way too many repairs for the price of the car.
@@InternetDude That's fair. Then replace Tesla with almost any other EV. My big problem with hybrids (even plug-ins) is that you never escape the pump. Having a local car that never needs gas is a huge benefit, even if you don't take it on long trips.
@@newscoulomb3705 well one of them is a RAV4 Prime so it’s basically an EV ~8 months of the year.
@@newscoulomb3705 I used to think like you when I had two Teslas in the garage thought I wouldn’t go back. The DC infrastructure here is not very good (CCS)
These type of situations are why it’s incumbent upon the viewer to use their discernment and determine the validity of any information. I doubt Hoovie was intentionally trying to mislead people. It’s just his lack of long term exposure to the vehicle that led him to his decision.
Agreed. There was a lot of just keeping in the car and charge it overnight. Not everyone has that luxury. And my parents garage isn't heated. There's no difference between outside and inside, sometimes inside. It's colder.
Hoovies channel is a business; trading in the truck was a business decision that had far more to do with video content than the range of the vehicle. Making a video about it was just a way to leverage that business decision to make money at the same time.
I got my F-150 Lightning Lariat ER in early January, earlier than expected, so I hadn't yet installed a manual transfer switch to run my gas furnace, fridge, oven, etc. Nevertheless, Austin, TX experienced a huge ice storm last week and I was able to run a couple of 1800W heaters off the Pro Power On Board. It brought the indoor temps up about 12F. It was awesome. I kept it on for hours and the battery usage barely budged. There is so much energy in those cells, it's crazy. And we had spent time inside the cab earlier, charging our phones and sitting on the lovely heated seats.
I saw his video yesterday too, I feel it was because he has all the heating accessories on which would greatly effect range, thanks for making this video!! Great as always !!
2kWh would run all heating accessories for a couple hours; that’s just one mile of range.
We have a bolt and after GM turned it down 20% it got close in winter to being a daily/nightly charger.
During the summer or fair weather we would get a few days in. If we park it inside during temperature extremes it helps quite a lot.
I like hoovie a lot but man he is really been bashing on his lightning lately and I feel like it's been misinformed a lot thank you for clarifying and not bashing him
No one should go to the dumbest automotive channel on you tube for anything but entertainment.
Tyler is using his truck exactly the way most average non-technical people would use the truck. Picture grandmother’s, wife’s, daughters driving these EVs. Picture people that live in condominiums or apartment complexes where the vehicles have to sit in the public parking spaces. If you jumped in one of these, say you borrowed it from a friend, and saw 50% battery and 75 miles of range you would assume that you can make it 30 or 40 miles to the next charging station or back to your apartment.
GM paid him more for the Hummer review
The biggest thing is what you call cold. Up in Alberta we call normal 0F and cold is -10F to -20F. And then it gets very cold at -25 to -40F. At normal around 0F you can drive around with selective heat use. At -15F you need heat on almost always and below -25F you have heat on full constantly.
When cold or very cold heat pumps dont work unless you drive for hours.
I'm trying to learn as much as I can about EVs in general. I don't own on yet but I'd love to. Video like these help a lot. Thanks for posting this.
Thank you guys, the only thing you may have wanted to mention is in cold weather even ICE vehicles need to plug in their block heaters. Energy efficiency is affected by many things and that is for both ICE & EV which I don't think enough people understand as you mentioned.
Great job guys 👏 ☺️..HAVE A BEAUTIFUL DAY EVERYONE..HAPPY TUESDAY ✌️
Great video, I don't expect my milage remaining to be accurate on my ICE, but I do expect it to be close. It's not on the EV for reason explained in this video, however, there in lies the problem.
I have a Hybrid and the efficiency lost in the cold Candian winter is mind blowing. I wouldn't even think about how bad it is with a full EV. TFL please test an EV not plugged in and left outside for 2 day's this winter.
Yeah, TFL had theirs charging (and this warm) the whole time.
The problem with hybrids is, many of the tricks they use to make them more efficient stop working when it's cold. Normally the engine can shut off a lot of the time once it warms up, but when it's cold it has to stay on almost all the time to stay at operating temperature and heat the cabin. You might consider installing a block heater to help the engine get up to operating temperature faster.
EVs are not so bad as long as you have a heat pump, and it's not too cold for the heat pump to work (they do have a minimum temperature they can work at), and as long as you can keep the battery warm. Obviously that won't work for everyone, but if you can keep it plugged in all the time it should be fine.
I suspect that plug-in hybrids don't warm the battery or use it for heat either since they can just run the engine instead, so the battery gets cold-gated and the engine runs to heat the cabin.
I was a bit worried about the EV range in the cold before we got ours, but no matter how cold it is I see dozens of EVs a day in Montreal, and we had zero issues in the cold with ours last year, even when it got down to -30C and we left the car unplugged overnight (no charging where we were staying).
@@nicholaswilson9724 some do warm the battery. I drive a Prius Prime, and it will heat the battery as long as it's plugged in.
I'm curious why you would leave it unplugged for 2 days outside though? They touched on this in the video - if you leave it not plugged in when you start it up you're going to have to heat the battery up which is going to reduce range versus plugging it in and conditioning the battery before you go. I have a Prius Prime and this would be the last worry on my mind because even if I left it unplugged and took a range hit the engine would just turn on.
I would love to see that test with the heater in an EV. Keep it 70° inside when it is 32° or below outside.
and how long it can keep it up. in NY if you get stranded on a highway for 20+ hours and below freezing temps is a very dangerous territory
@@ObedientMammal Exactly. Another thing I just thought of, battery starts at 50%. You know damn well you're not going to get stuck in traffic on a freezing day, a minute after pulling out of your driveway with a 100% charged battery.
@@number40Fan a few weeks ago we got over 4 feet of snow in 6 hours...i wont gamble my life on an electric vehicle in the middle of a state stopping snow storm. They pulled all the plows off the road. 30 minute drive turns to 2 hours real quick
@@ObedientMammal
As they pointed out, leaving home with 100% makes your Ev in the event of a stranding much more likely to have a higher Percentage of remaining energy than in an ICE vehicle that is only filled once every two weeks. And furthermore when you are stranded a vehicles heat pump only uses 1 KW vs 15 to 30 KW to idle a gas car. This means the average gas car can only heat its cabin for around 40 hours, the average ice truck around 24 hours and the Average EV between 50-100 hours. Once again contrary to popular assumptions you would be way better of in an efficient EV.
@@ObedientMammal
If it’s a F150 Lightning with a full warm battery, which is likely on the average commute than you can stay warm for around 50 hours or twice the duration of a similar ICE truck can idle.
I switched to EV in 2020 and it's great never having to think about stopping on the way to or from work. Road trips take a bit longer, but I usually feel better after arriving due to the more frequent stops. I don't think I would want to deal with long range towing at this point mostly due to charging infrastructure, but for around town these EV trucks can do everything a regular truck can with less maintenance and fuel cost (albeit the trucks themselves are still expensive).
If they were not so expensive I'd have one. I just can't pay big $ for a vehicle that is stuck as a "round town" vehicle since I live in a rural area... There are no feasible chargers around me if I wanted to go out, or head south and visit family.
I am looking to find a cheap car like a bolt or a leaf someday if I can get one cheap and will use it as a runaround car, but even then the fastest charger within 50 miles of me is single stall 16kw charger, the others are 6kw and it's about 100 miles south until another is available.
@@volvo09 The viability definitely depends where you live. There are 6 EA stations within 50 miles of me and over a dozen Tesla Superchargers. (DC Metro). I've driven as far as Ohio and Tennessee without any issues, even in winter, but West Virginia for example is a barren wasteland for fast chargers.
As for being stranded in winter, you’d be in pretty good shape if you’re in a diesel. I know at least the older Cummins 24V trucks burn between 0.25 to 0.33 gal/hr at idle. With a mostly full tank you could idle around the clock up to 5 days.
Appreciate you guys for doing such rigorous testing and seeking to understand new technologies. EVs are far from perfect, but they also don't deserve some of the criticism they get either.
EVs are not new technology. EVs were around for over 2 decades before ICE were produced. EVs quickly fell out of favor after this and had all the same problems as now. Given diesel fuel has 46 TIMES the energy as lithium ion per pound, I don't think this takes an engineer to understand.
They're not the same, everything improves as time goes on and EVs are vastly better than they were back then just like ICE. EVs are now overall preforming better than ICE and will have the wrinkles ironed out in the next decade especially now there's a mass market demand for it now.
Physics states that Velocity (speed) squared = double your speed = square the particles you pass through.
e.g. 40mph if you hit 10 particles of air (resistance) per second & @ 80 mph you would hit 100 particles of air (10 squared or 10 x 10)
Aerodynamics if very important
Another great video. Real talk, no drama. The bottom line is the use case. If you're not prepared or able to adapt to the specific requirements of driving an EV, then maybe this isn't the truck for you. I started with 390kms (90% in my Lariat ER) and drove 150kms in a blizzard the other day, I had 160kms remaining when I got to my destination. Took it eazy and drove for the conditions, stopped for 20mins at a fast charger on the way home.
Excellent review of EV issues in the cold and at high speeds. Ford is extremely conservative with the range estimations on their EVs.
Preconditioning my i3 at home while plugged in when it’s cold gets me about 5-10% back of the 20% ish I loose if it was sitting outside. In the summer I get about 20% more range.
I have a Fusion Energi. In the winter my all electric range drops from about 20 miles down to 12 or 13.
It's crazy how stable the etron really is in the cold. I always drive in single digits and it's always very efficient!
I always like how connected all the big name car youtubers are
Thank you! Getting my lightning next week.
When we had our Jaguar I-Pace it was not too bad when it was around freezing, but we had weeks on end where the daytime high would be -25 Celsius 13 below Fahrenheit and overnight was -40 C & F. The suv was kept in a garage plugged in overnight that was heated to about +5 C or 40 above F. During the day at work the vehicle was not heated, but was plugged into a level 2 charger. The distance travelled was about 140 km each way. In the summer it was no issue, but at about -10C or 14F we started to notice the range was not giving any buffer zone. To and from work for her. It was an amazing vehicle, but she went to a Wrangler 4xe, we moved so range wasn’t as important 😂😂 ahhh timing,,,,,. She loved the Wrangler and use in EV only was between 72 and 82% now we live near the city due to my stupid health and she bought an excessively expensive Grand Cherokee 4xe that she loves even more!! She is currently using it as an EV 90+% of the time. We are not road tripping as much due to winter setting in. Depending on your circumstances and if you truly want choice, the PHEV may be the choice. Commute all week in EV mode or mostly EV mode, power up overnight, each night and on the weekend, do what you want, with a huge load of power as well!! Range is not an issue if you don’t mind running the vehicle in full hybrid or ICE mode for the weekend. Hybrid mode is relatively fuel efficient as well.
I love the fact that TFL explained this. We never dropped to 1/2 range even at minus 40!! Close, but not 1/2. There’s better battery technologies coming as well, which could affect your decisions more. I’m hoping in 5 or so years, but only time will tell for sure.
That's what is missing from a lot of the data is actual temperatures. Thanks for your input.
I could say 1 more thing about all vehicles in cold. Grease and bearings. I ride my ebike in Wyoming year round and in the summer on level 1 (750w motor) I normally use 60 to 80 watts. In the winter below 10 I use 350 watts and pedaling is way stiffer. Nothing to do with battery just cold grease
Guys, Tyler literally opens his videos bv saying: "welcome to Hoovies garage, the dumbest automotive channel in all of CZcams!"
So would you guys recommend the Lightning? I’m on the fence
If you're not a member and use the $0.43 kwh cost at Electrify America it would cost $91 to fill a hummer from empty to full, which is probably where the "it costs $100 to fill a hummer" quote comes from.
Plus does a membership to Electrify America cost anything?
Great video! Love Hoovie's Garage too!
People are just resistant to change. I love my Lightning. Have 37,000 klm on it. Only needed to use a public charger one time. I charge at home all the time. As far as cost goes I'm saving over $400.00 per month on fuel alone. I also don't miss the routine maintenance. I've filled my washer fluid twice...
Thank you for doing this video. I love hoovies garage but I knew when that video came out it was very inaccurate and needed to be cleared up.
I regularly make the trip from Detroit to Chicago in my Mach-E GT. I've had no problem because I plan it out fairly conservatively. I do lose approximately 25% range in freezing weather. Not comfortable with a heat pump in single digit weather.
Why would we assume the battery percentage is anymore accurate? Ultimately, that's also just a calculation.
Nope, battery percentage is not a guess like range.
@@TFLEV I didn't say it was a guess, I said it was a calculation. It's also just observed, just like with any other information on your dash.
@TFLEV You are wrong. EVs use a method called Kalman filtering and it yields a "theoretical" solution.
You are implying that capacitance versus max reported capacitance requires anything other than straight math. Range calculations are based on estimating. Real capacitance is not an estimation. By the way, estimation is still a calculation, but estimation is not the same thing as saying something that is a given such as 2 + 2 is ultimately 4. This is a calculation too, but there is a distinct difference in those calculations. @TFLEV was correct as you implied the calculation of capacitance is equivalent to an estimation. This is plainly false as it is possible to look at the entirety of the capacitance through an OBD 2 reader at the cell level.
@@ronaldking1054 What makes you think anything is based entirely on real capacitance? You're just assuming that.
A great video! I'm so impressed with your guys facts and research. Amazing content, keep it up.
At -10C If you don't warm the battery before you drive, you will drop range fast. The internal battery temprature will not get to normal temperature. UNLESS you turn off your cabin heat, then your range will climb back up and so will your internal battery temp.
The truck will tell you to plug in if you put into park while it's sub zero. If you do that, you're fine. If you don't, you better wear a parka the next day if you want any range.
Thank you for educating the uneducated out there. It is so easy to criticize without thinking of all terms to be considered.
For some EVs are a solution today, but unfortunately for most...they are not.
Does the graph start with a cool garaged car or a freezing car left out overnight?
You are correct about the speed. But also incorrect about the temperature! The temperature is a huge factor, not because it affects the battery, but because the cabin heater is a huge power hog. And...., of course, the lower the temp goes the more it will consume. Another not talked about impact is the time of day, at night particularly the high beams are also a significant current draw the is not present during the daytime. On my EQS at a temperature of 10F milage drops form the summer normal of 370 plus to 270. A difference of 27%. A misconception about heat pumps is that it always helps milage, in fact, NO! once the temperature drops to around 0F, the heat pump is useless and the car most use a resistive heater. MB does not use a heat pump, instead it uses a secondary heating loop from the motors just like your good old Hemi does. Thus, it augments the resistive heater with powertrain heat. Less complexity, almost the same efficiency gains and it does not lose efficiency as the temperature drops to very cold temps. A word to the wise, in winter, for long drives, keep the cabin temperature as cool as you are comfortable, if you're internal thermostat is set at 72 be prepared for additional recharging stops. I keep mine at 66 degrees in winter and 72 in summer.
My Chevrolet Bolt EUV owner's manual says use the heated seats and heated steering wheel and keep the cabin as cool as possible because heating the cabin uses more energy. I find it to be true. I can see it on the kW display on the gauge cluster.
I have a Ford Escape PHEV and I'm seeing about 27-28 during the day starting out in the garage pre conditioned. At night after charging at work outdoors I see 16-17 miles at around 30 degrees. I leave the heat off as much as possible but I refuse to slow down. That's just not an option I will consider lol. It's interesting to see the difference speed and a couple hills make. I'm glad I have the ICE engine to back me up.
Have you tried driving without preconditioning to confirm it is the temps and not the elevation?
@@Cloud30000 yes, always preconditioned. EV's just have big limitations in general. Turning off defrost and slowing down aren't very convenient options for most drivers.
What ive seen in the forums is people using the range meter and sayiing "i get 400 miles!" When i ask if they actually drove 400 miles, the answer is "well no, but.." and then you have people wondering why they arent getting 400 miles. I think 80% of the data thats out there is useless because people dont know or want to feel better about their purchase and inflate numbers. I also diagree on speed vs cold. In the summer i get 3.0 miles/kwr, in the winter im getting 2.0, and i set my cruise control to 75 all the time. 2022 bmw ix50
Come to TFL for real word information. Always spot on. To back up your claim - Last winter I had a 100Km drive home. My Model 3 was cold soaked around -20degrees C after sitting all day and night. Got in to drive home and vehicle calculated -1% and I would have to stop and charge. I ended up setting cruse control at 90Kph vs my normal of 105-115kph and ended up at home with 4%. Just driving the speed limit will save on enery.
9:30 - "Why should I have to sacrifice and plug in overnight..." - it isn't a sacrifice, it's a bonus! I spent all of 10 seconds plugging/unplugging my vehicle each day. And I start each morning "with a full tank." I can go *MONTHS* without having to spend _any_ time stopping to fuel up/recharge if I don't take road trips. (Or stopping at a hotel for the night and spending 10 seconds plugging in at the hotel, then I don't have to stop to refuel the next morning.)
"Cold weather reduces EV range, but how much depends on how toasty you keep the cabin. Sub-freezing temperatures reduce range by between 12% and 30%, but that's without the climate control on to warm the cabin. Data from AAA found that once the heater is turned on, EV range can drop by as much as 41%."
Do a test. When it hits 25 or so, leave your F150 over ight keeping cabin warm with hit air at around 68... see how much enegery gets used over night.
I have an EV6 and I’m only getting about 75% of the efficiency I was getting in the summer 2.8mi/kw vs 3.6mi/kw in the summer. This seems pretty normal for an EV, but I can see why it’s an issue. My useful range decreases to ~210mi. 95% of my driving is close to town. But I cannot go to my favorite ski hill and back (230mi) easily. I would need to add 10%-20% battery via a 40A or less charger. And all of these chargers are in an inconvenient location for food/etc. So I need to sit for at least 1-2 extra hours to charge and just wait. Can it be done? Yes. Do I want to do this, not a chance… I’d rather just take a ICE vehicle. But it’s the cases like this that prevent people from buying these vehicles. And if you only have 1 vehicle this can a deciding factor.
I think cases of having a 230mi trip with neither high speed charging nor chargers near food are a minority; a much bigger problem is the reliability of the existing chargers and unpredictability of whether they are already in use.
The set exactly parodying the Car Wizard’s office is 💯👌💯
I like your assessment, but it's -33 here today. I think it'll be a long time before ev is practical here.
My work vehicle is an ICE and has a range estimate. The miles on the range estimate do not decrease directly proportionate to the amount of miles I drive.
I cannot thank you enough for clearing this up and pointing out Hoovie and others non scientific models. Particularly the stranded motorist scenario.
Why should I sacrifice on 1% of the drives I do for a much more convenient and cheeper experience during the 99% of drives I take? That answers itself.
Well done!
Great video guys! I like Hoovie but I am very bugged by his last two EV videos. On top of it he attracted Alex Jones 😂😵💫
On your concluding point: choice is great, I am thrilled we have an additional powertrain and fuel option today with the ability to stay charged at home. The problem is, EVs are NOT a one size fits all solution, but state governments are taking away consumer choice by banning ICE vehicles. Given that 5 months of the year in our area experiences freezing or lower temperatures, that there is terrain to traverse, and communities are spread out, BEV is not a good fit as a total replacement, but our state has locked in a ban that starts to phase in within 3 years.
What Hoovie demonstrated, is that if the Lightning is not plugged in at night to precondition the battery, the range loss is about 45% for that vehicle versus the rated range in what is a realistic drive profile (75 mph highway cruise). Recurrent shows range loss from as little as 8% to as much as 32%, other outlets have measured cold weather range loss as high as 40%.
I think speed vs. starting temperature being dominant in drain depends on length of journey. Short hops with a low average speed may use more energy to heat the cabin (at super low temps anyway) than move the truck, or may include brief high speed bursts, drinking power rapidly. Also you'd have to be certain you were defining trips reasonably. The same milage covered in 2 hours or 12 hours (with stops, but similar average speed excluding stops) in cold weather is not a fair comparison.
It's been really fun watching TFL's EV journey and learning with them along the way. My F150 Lightning is being built Friday 12/9 and watching Hoovies video is what affects non EV peoples opinions on the future of EV's. Thanks for making sense of Hoovies shortcomings.
Very declarative statement, when you plug it in overnight at your house, there are a ton of people who rent apartments without a garages and access to overnight charging.
17 cents pkwh. In the UK I’m paying 58pence per kWh at home in the week so to charge the Hummer it would cost £123,31p for 350 miles. At current pump prices 60 litres of diesel costs me £106,74p which takes me over 600 miles in my GLC. For local city use an EV is superb but for travelling distance it’s questionable as highway charging costs can be up to 99p per kWh. Informative though.
n the summer, the long days of sunshine thaw the top layer of frozen ground and bring average temperatures above 10 °C (50 °F). At some weather stations in the interior, summer temperatures can reach 30 °C (86 °F) or more.
I don't think most people know how inefficient a ICE vehicle is when cold. I switched my vehicle over to where the read out is the amount of fuel being used currently not averaged. Going from my home to the local store in the summer time when I hit the hill my consumption drops to 0.00L/100K. The other day when it was -20C and as I had not prewarmed the vehicle when I hit the hill my consumption was 3.9L/100K.
Regarding the efficiency of power generation versus the combustion of fuel inside an ICE, it is actually relatively close % wise unless your utility is on renewable sources.
Power generation relies on a standard or modified Rankine cycle, which is slightly more efficient than the Otto or Atkinson cycle, which is the thermodynamic cycle for ICE.
Even Solar Pv panels are topping out at 20-25% efficiency for irradiance to energy production.
Heat is produced with any type of power generation and that heat reduces efficiency.
Nothing is close to 100% efficient for energy conversion.
I live in Northwestern Canada where temperatures can drop to -50*C. At these temperatures you must plug in your block and or oilpan heaters for gasoline and diesel engines, especially the latter, if you want it to start. And once running watch your fuel gauges, especially gasoline, fall like a rock. The prohibitions to BEVs here, are nowhere to fast charge and long charging times.
I don't know the person you guys were referencing and I haven't seen the video, but as far as the behavior of electric vehicles in the winter and the efficiency of vehicles in terms of speed you were generally correct but also a bit off the mark in spots. In terms of electric vehicle range lost in the winter, the chemical reaction that takes place in a battery is inhibited by cold temperatures reducing the amount of current they are able to discharge. This is why car batteries have a cold cranking amps (CCA) rating on them, and the amount of range lost due to this inhibiting of the chemical reaction is going to be dependent on the specific chemistry and design of the battery pack and the typical temperatures you see in the winter. For some cars this could lead to a significant reduction in useable range.
Secondly, you are absolutely correct that heat pumps are more efficient than electric resistive heating (typically 2-5 times more depending on conditions), but they also have a lower limit of outside temperature they can function in and get much less efficient as they approach this limit. This is because, unlike resistive heating or ICE engines, heat pumps don't generate heat, they only pull latent heat out of the surrounding air and move it into the vehicle. This means if you see a lot of single digit or negative degree days during your winter, a heat pump system may not be able to actually heat your car and will just be wasting energy trying. If this is the case, you will be better served by a traditional ICE powered vehicle, or better still, a hybrid electric vehicle like the F-150 hybrid you guys took along as a support vehicle.
Lastly, you were incorrect or may have misspoke when you said that the relationship between speed and fuel efficiency was exponential. The aerodynamic drag on a vehicle is related to the velocity squared, which is a power relationship not an exponential relationship. Also, just going slower isn't necessarily more efficient. Every vehicle has a speed at which it is most efficient, which involves a balance between power losses (like drag and rotational friction of drivetrain components), the momentum of the vehicle, and the motor's power output. If there were no frictional losses then the car's momentum would allow it to continue traveling at the same speed indefinitely without further power input from the motor. However, since there are frictional losses, they must be overcome by an equal or greater amount of power from the motor. At low speeds the friction of the bearings in the rotating drivetrain components and the rolling resistance of the tires have a greater effect, but since this relationship is linear in relation to vehicle speed the aerodynamic drag (which is proportional to the speed squared) starts taking over as the more significant force opposing forward momentum as speed increases. The momentum of the vehicle is also a product of the mass of the vehicle and the velocity it is traveling, so a heavier or faster moving vehicle will have more momentum that the frictional forces will have to act against. Thus there is a specific speed at which a specific vehicle is most efficient in terms of distance traveled per unit of energy used. This could be 55mph for some vehicles like you said, but it could also be 58mph or 63mph or 49mph. It is likely less than 75mph for a typical passenger vehicle, though, if that's what the guy you were referring to was driving at.
Is it more cost efficient (less energy used in total) to just drive away cold (as long as you don't need the distance) rather than heating battery before driving each time? Do you end up using more energy to heat battery in total than if you'd didn't heat the battery.
There are cold streaks in ND, SD with short drives there are many times you have to sit for your EV battery is warm enough to charge.
I would love for you to come here during a cold winter week. There are many weeks where it is 0F and below with windchills -20F or below. Test your cold weather myths.
Anecdotal data point here:
A 200mi trip in my 2022 tesla model y performance was 60.60 KWh when it was 70°f outside.
The same trip, cruse control set to the same speed, took 99.34 KWh when it was 4°f outside.
Note: That's after I preconditioning my car prior to starting both trips while they were plugged in.
I jumped from about ~.303 KWh/mi to about ~.481KWh/mi.
That the same as dropping from ~3.3 mi/KWh down to ~2.079 mi/KWh
It's a new technology, people are leery of it and rightfully so. Same thing happened when the car replaced the horse. You guys brought it together well in the end when you said that we still have a CHOICE. ICE cars aren't going away any time soon. We're all still free to drive what we want.
How much range is lost when temps are below freezing?
Wonder if they account for garage storage and the impact that has. I always kept mine outside.
If it's plugged in, whether inside or outside, it can be preconditioning and range will improve.
at cold winter temps 10 degrees and below drive at 70 mph you have to have your heater up a lot to stay warm. How's that work?
The power used to drive at a particular velocity is directly proportional to the cube of the velocity. P = k v^3, where k is essentially the drag coefficient. This means to travel at 75 mph a vehicle requires 2.5 times as much power as traveling at 55 mph.
After daily driving electric now for almost 5 years, I wouldn't go back to dailying a gas car. I still have fun cars that aren't EV's, and enjoy them from time to time. It's just wonderful on my daily driver to have zero maintenance, never spend any time fueling it up, I go 9 months out of the year without visiting a gas pump.
Same!
Winter in Utah we loose 20% range in our Rav 4 Prime.
Battery capacity will diminish in cold. How much depends on temperature and type of battery.
Another thing the general public doesn't get is that a wreck going 55 mph vs a wreck going 80 is exponentially worse. Not, linear.
Good job fellas, good information…
You guys should really emphasize that if you do round trips near home and you plug in at home that it’s so easy and cheap that that situation blows ICE out of the water. And with the hummer, it’s worst case scenario for EVs.
I’ve got an electric Kona. I live in the U.K. Doesn’t get particularly cold. Where I live it’s about 2 or 3°C on average. During its second winter the range decreases by approximately 50 miles. Using the heater (to keep warm and condensation down) lose another 50 miles. That’s 100 miles in total. If you drive 70-100 miles a day like I do that’s a pain in the butt. It’s never off the charger. It’s on an EVSE every two days. That’s probably not too bad for some but at 36 cents per KW the public chargers are cheaper and in the U.K. certainly in my local area, you aren’t allowed to run electric cables across public footpaths. However my diesel Citroen gets a good run during the winter as the ‘waste’ heat gets put to good use in keeping me warm and toasty and I get 70mpg out of it. EV’s aren’t there yet.