Installing the Rear Suspension on the - Off Road Racing Shifter Kart Part 2
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- In this video we are starting a new project, we are building an Off Road Racing Shifter Kart using a CR 125 dirt bike engine. I want this project to be small and fast with full suspension. I first start off with making the front hubs so we can have front brakes. then I start working on making the front A-arms and the beginnings of the frame.
Follow me on Patreon for early access content:
/ ratherbwelding
ArcDroid CNC Plasma Cutter Affiliate Link:
bit.ly/3B6G7Px
ratherBwelding merchandise
bit.ly/2PF21Vf
Follow me on Instagram www.instagram....
#fabrication #shifterkart
Music by Epidemic Sound (www.epidemicsou...)
As soon as you hit a bump or the rear end twisters you put a twist in the chain and it's going to pop right off.
that was the first thing I thought when he twisted the rear suspension !!
Yup, next video will him seeing the issue and redoing all of that, lol. I love watching his process of discovery.
Beat me to it! Lol
that was my first thought too, might be best just for the back wheels to go straight up and down together.
Grind Hard Plumbing's barbie jeep and this channels own power wheels grave ninja iirc has four link rear suspension and is chain drive and they can handle a surprising amount of flex. Those have the sprocket in the middle of the axle not off to the side though.
this is some amazing engineering build without a crazy budget. and i am convinced he is gonna tear it all apart and redo it if it doesnt work.
more people should be this honest and hardworking. you do you chris, keep it up
Front steer. Put the steering head tube inside/ under the frame so the steering horn sticks up. Gives you several inches to lower the engine
You would also then have to flip the spindles so the steering arms are in front of the axle. No issue just saying.
He should have had a He cant, it needs clearance for the A arms and heims...but that wouldnt be an issue if he had a steering shaft go around the engine and a front rack style setup, then he could mount the engine much lower and just used a 4-5 piece steering shaft
Plus with that much scrub radius the steering wheel is gonna rip outta his hand on every bump/dip
Chris , I love the way you fabricate. I've been following you since you were a very young man building go carts. You made your own lathe and Richard saw you potential and gave you his. You're a gifted young man and I have learned a lot from you.
The chain will run off the rear sprocket when it articulates side to side man
You need a panhard bar for that type of rear design. It will allow all the movement and will make the rear suspension strong.
No it doesn't need a panhard
@@thomasgrace5424 you’re correct but there are so many people in these comments just making stupid arguments lol. He should just a parallel setup and watts link, or panhard bar.
Note that the left(drivers) side link doesn’t swivel at the back end. It’s triangulated to keep the axle perpendicular to the link arm, and the right (passenger) side arm maintains the distance of the axle from the link pivot, so the axle can’t really sway left to right, so no panhard bar needed.
Another way to look at it, Since the axle is affixed rigidly to the left link, at 90 degrees, the “panhard bar” can be installed 90 degrees from a normal install, and connected to the axle instead… which he has done but it doubles as the right side link.
Many different types of link rear suspensions are out there, each with their own pros and cons. For this project I think this design would be fine, if it were a shaft drive.
The issues here will be with the chain twist. A swingarm suspension like on a quad or motorcycle is normally used for chain drive.
I think the twisting travel would have to be limited a lot, to keep from messing up the chain, so much that it should have just been made as one big swingarm where no twisting is allowed.
@@emersonb5764 ya, I get all that. It’s either A not going to be stable enough to function or B fail spectacularly. There is nothing keeping lateral forces at bay past a small hand shake test as he did. The “triangulation” is vertical only, just like a 2 link on a mini truck. This will fail at the weld most likely, and the axle will shift and ruin his day if not more.
If the left link had a heim joint at the rear, then yes, it would need a panhard. But it doesn’t. The rectangle doesn’t easily turn into a parallelogram when it’s braced in the corner.
A traditionally oriented panhard would add some rigidity, but for this build not necessary. The job of the panhard is being done by the axle being attached rigidly to the left link, and the swinging of that whole “L” shaped assembly is prevented by the right link.
I really want you to TRY A PROJECT with a Citroen 2cv suspension philosophy.
It will be epic project and this suspension was built for those hard trails you looking for
We don't have those here. No thanks.
Only partially kidding. But. This is the first time in my over 50 years I have heard anyone mention a 2cv without a punchline.
@@eriklarson9137 It's Always first time for everything!
The fact that you don't have them doesn't mean that they are not good enough to try it.
2cv suspension is one of the best suspension that have ever built.
The suspension is on both side of chassis horizontally and it will be very easy for Chris to build it and try it.
Chains gonna be droppin like it’s hot
If chain will by long, sprocets small and on the center it should works
It will work
Grind Gard Plumbing Co. Barbie Jeep had or still has a chain driven live rear axle with lots of travel. They had problems but I don't remember an episode with the chain dropping since like forever. watch?v=f0SVLr5pxIg (5 years ago, full send)
@@HulluJanne my first thought was the Barbie Jeep. That was four link and center sprocket. I hope Chris’ works but it is off set pretty extreme
@@calamitycycles5994 I was trying to imagine the angles of the sprocket. I'd guess that the travel is way less in this thing. I should rewatch the barbie jeep videos, but the full send one gave me the impression that the chain length isn't that much different, but could be wrong.
I would love to see him make a Narrow-Wide sprocket (if the chaindrop becomes a problem) and some special type of tensioner.
I know the chain should give you the twist you want but you could also put a universal joint on the jack shaft so it moves with it👍
Unlike everyone else mentioning the chain, I'm going to once again hand you a solution for it: *De-Dion axle rear suspension.* Specifically, *attach it via a Satchell Link* so you don't need a trackbar/Panhard bar or Watts-link to go with it. You should theoretically be able to use the "2 link" suspension on De-Dion, also it's called "radius rod" btw. But the beauty of the Satchell Link is that only the lower bars are triangulated (at the frame side, all 4 bars are wide on the axle side), so you'd get your clearance on each side for the seat just fine.
Pretty sure that when it articulates the sprockets won't line up correctly and you'll lose the chain.
100%, unless there's some out of this world engineering device that allows the chain to twist on a sprocket. I cannot believe he miss this detail. This dude is specialist in chain driven vehicles, there must be some plan on his head.
@@micaelantunes7055 Chains can handle a surprising amount of misalignment with proper guidance. See bicycles with derailleurs. So he'll just need the out of this world engineering device called a chain guide.
@@bradley3549 bike chains are misaligned but parallel.if the sprokets twist in relation to each other the chain will pop of!
@@micaelantunes7055 That's a fair observation but I'm not sure it's an important distinction. Some angular misalignment in the torsional axis is really the same as a parallel misalignment in both directions. The bottom line is that the chain doesn't want to stay on and so you have to go out of your way to force it and accept the wear and tear that will inevitably result.
I've really grown to enjoy this channel since happening upon one of your projects a while backand I'm honestly not sure if my favorite thing is the audacity of your projects, your obvious fabrication talent, or the fact that you learned to speak by studying old timey radio news broadcasts.
It's almost 11p.m here in kenya 🇰🇪,this is the best video to wind me down to Slumber land..👌🏼👍🏻
Do a y link around the seat connected to the middle of the rear axle, parallel lower arms. Simple design should get you everything you need. Also going to have to limit the travel to keep the chain from popping off when articulated.
I am full in with the 2 link, cant wait to see how it works
That suspension is so cool and creative
Dude, that suspension design is so effin cool!!! I sure hope it works!
You need to get yourself an RC rock crawler so you can experiment with/ test suspension designs on a mini scale before welding stuff up. Plus RC rock crawlers are super fun 😎🤙🏽
Videos need to be longer.. love this channel.. But as soon as I get really into it the video is over!!
Protip: watch at 3/4 speed.
As a bonus you can also pretend he's hammered the whole time using this technique.
@@courier11sec 😂
That rear suspension is genius!! Man u r such an inspiration, great job!! But it still needs some designing and experiments
Dude you've got a voice that I just love listening to. So glad you made a CZcams channel bro. I'm gonna sit back and watch you work magic🪄🧙♂️
Welding wizard is at work 👌
Basically the kind of rear suspension you're going for would be based off the mini trophy karts that kids race. They run a solid live axle that has some pivot up and down like a real truck axle would, but chain driven.
100%
Amazing suspension engineering, it will be quite interesting to see how that rear end goes, I’m sure it will be fine 👌🏻
more people should be this honest and hardworking. you do you chris, keep it up
There's a reason you dont see this design. It will place incredible loads on the heims, especially the side with the axle attached. just imagine the forces on that single attachment point the first time you toss it sideways in a power slide... I fear you will have a lot of problems getting it stiff enough to allow chain drive. That said, simpler should be better if it does work. If it does not work, why not simply add two more links with attachment above these and use 4 links. Both sides will be outside of seat so it should still work like you want...Also might work with seriously beefy attachment points and a panhard bar or watts link/cross link to keep it centered?
I don't know anything about suspension but it seems like that could be a lot of unsprung weight. Looks cool though
@ManiacRacing I think you're right. Might be simpler and safer to treat it like a motorcycle swing arm with a single, or v-shaped shock arrangement, especially with chain drive.
@@stum450n He's 100% right about wanting articulation though....as fast as this engine is, he'll need good suspension of it will beat him senseless quickly. I slapped a Honda 450 twin on a yerf dog with the rear swingarm platform, and even on the street it was just brutal to drive. It wore front tires literally while you watched. This engine will be far worse so he's right to think about something with more movement and better geometry
Wouldn't a second heim joint above the one and triangulate from the single heim at the chassis side to help with this?
Boy you must be really smart! How many machines have you built?
15:26 I absolutely love that train of thought brother in my head I think it will work I can't find anyone else doing bit so it leads me to believe nobody's done it and it won't work but I'm going to try it anyway lol love it
Love that you try things even if they aren’t proven or for sure going to work- that’s what makes it fun and interesting to watch. It’s also cool that you have goals and constraints for the build going in that force creative thinking. Can’t wait to see how it pans out.
Omg yes! Linkage arm steering...... This is going to be awesome. I couldn't envisage what you were describing in your previous video; now it all makes sense! Those A arms with minimal bump steer is such an ingenious design!
Well done👍
Love it already
The rear suspension you are attempting is called a 3‐link or y-link. It will move side to side a bit because the front joints will flex some. Thats why you dont see it. You need at least a 3 link at a diagonal to the chassis to keep the side to side movement to a minimum. At least thats what weve found in the off-road world. This is definitely a great build!
I'm sure Chris already has a solution for the chain. Guys, have some faith 😂 there's options out there.
Many unique ideas fail and succeed.
Thank you for clearly showing the process and results.
An exceptional creator.
Things that have been done before are boring.
It WILL WORK!! NOTE: Use a spring loaded chain tensioner with a ball bearing 3”wheel that all custom swing arm drag ATV use! I believe cascade innovations-drive line performance-sand toyz unlimited ECT has them
I like your rear suspension concept, I say finish it out and see how it feels when you drive it.
18:43 maybe I’m not understanding, but how is the chain supposed to stay on if the rear articulates?
It's not, you can not twist a chain and sprockets independent of each other, it will throw the chain off the sprockets every time.
I've been day dreaming up the same build; and reached the same conclusion on the rear suspension. Through ALOT more than 45 mins of research I found the name of the suspension style is radius arm. I think of it as a cross between a lateral 4-link and ladder bars.
How is that twisting articulation of the axle going to work with a chain?
I predict 🔮 a lot of chain chucking 😬
it will not. it will pop of as soon as the axel twists a single degree.
@@micaelantunes7055 Kinda what I expected, not sure why he would design it in such a way.
Everyone keeps saying the chain will come off straight away but remember this isnt a rock crawler so no huge amounts of articulation. Small medium articulation movements wont affect the chain at all as there is enough distance between the two sprokets. In saying this i do believe it will need a sway bar or some sort of articulation limiter.
You can make a swing arm with the chain drive, you can mount the engine on the swing arm, or you can figure out how to use a drive shaft. Red Beard built an independent rear suspension by mounting the engine on the rear suspension assembly.
This is the kinda stuff we wanna see 🙏🏻 I used to go to pull and save up in spokane a lot when I was a kid. Theres many many wonderful things you can build from junkyard parts. That would be rad to build your own Ariel atom style car
It’s crazy how much work you get done in 20 minutes! Go karts! 👍
That suspension is so cool, I really like how it drops the seat height and center of gravity.... That would be really nice w/ an electric motor and a big battery. 😁👍
Looking great chris , I think it will work , if not no biggie your building it all custom,Just another change & time . Being creative is always good .
Can’t wait to see that rear swing arm wrap up…😂
what I would have done Chris was to allow them both to swivel with rose joints then fit a diagonal panhard rod across to the frame to stop the side-to-side movement that would work for sure allowing you full articulation on both sides what you have done was incorporate the Panhard rod with the swivel stoping some articulation on that side where there is no longer a swivel joint I hope it works but I think a Panhard rod diagonally across would work better and stop any side to side movement fingers crossed it works mate. all the best from John from Rugby UK.
NASCAR uses that type of suspension. It’s also found in 67 through 72 Chevy trucks the trick to make it work is it has to have a pan hard bar and the rear will be one solid piece mounted to the end of both links
You COULD do 4-link, where you have two large trailing arms, but the top links can be small and spaced out. It doesn't need to be as triangulated as you think, as if the trailing arms are parallel and the top links are triangulated, that'll keep the axle stable. You can have the top links connect closer together on the axle, and farther apart on the frame like normal systems are, but your top links can be shorter. All that does is turn the axle forward and backward during travel, which shouldn't be an issue for this type of build
Hope this helps!
This cart is like the revolver of go karts “the 6 link”
Interesting video as usual. Thank you.
Very interesting idea. I love how you do a real life test of brainstorming. I am interested to seee how you keep your chain aligned to the driven sprocket.
I'm trying to remember when you left us the last time. if you had the front suspension completed or not. if not it appears that you built the front suspension off camera. it's no big deal since it's a pretty basic single control arm setup. but I just couldn't remember if you had completed the front suspension or not. and it's okay if you do some things off camera. since you are really good at showing great detail. on the work you do for us on camera. on four link rear suspension the panhard bar is what holds the rear differential/axle centered in the frame. and on race cars the panhard bar is made adjustable at each end. to account for body/frame roll to keep both sides of the rear axle planted. for the most traction and not lifting one or the other rear tire from the ground. however there could be a couple of problems that I can see with this rear suspension design? one is when the rear suspension is at it's lowest travel position. it might cause the chain to interfere with the seat. say if you go over a jump? when it lands is when this issue will be most prevalent. and the second problem may be when hard cornering to the left? it might cause the rear of the vehicle to kick out. causing a loose condition when the right rear wheel hits a bump. but this is dependant on suspension travel. and where the bottom and the top of the the travel start and stop. and it might work out to be not very noticable. I guess we will have to wait and see.
Isn’t the chain going to jump off every time you go over a bump
I wonder if put the engine sideways and use a propshaft and bevel gear in the axle would work and give you a bit more room
the name of that rear suspension is simply a swingarm. Think chain drive sport ATV. Replace that other spherical joint with a hinge. I love your channel dude!
Thanks for switching up the music
Hell yeah positive vibes. This is coming out so sick
That suspension arm look perfect for this project, simple and effective.
But the tabs holding the ball joints are too small and fragile in my opinion.
That and the fact that the chain will pop of as soon as that axel moves a millimeter.
The heim joints are all in double-shear. Once the mounting plates are fully welded they'll be more than strong enough.
Red beard had a big go cart called the Duece, where it mounted in the middle of the chasis. But that was a rear mounted engine, so the engine moved with the rear end and axel. Just do rear A arms, with the sprocket drives going through the middle of the go cart. Therefore your sprocket stays in a fixed position. Keep up the good work
This works great 05 gsxr1000 trophy kart with the same suspension as what you’re building works great,it’s been built for the last couple years. Just add aswaybar.
The rear suspension looks like a hybrid between a 3-link and a torsion beam. If it were me, I'd be tempted to do a torsion beam, so the rear suspension would basically have a built-in sway bar.
Rule of thumb! If the vehicle performs fine with a locked rear end, then it'll perform fine with bump steer!
Look at twin i-beam offroad vehicles. They have huge amounts of bump steer, but in low traction applications it really doesn't matter much. Ditto Ackerman and scrub radius. Offroad vehicles it really doesn't matter. What's more important is keeping the wheels on the ground.
I'm very interested to see if the rear works good! It's turning out really cool so far, c&c better watch out!
This rear axle that you are manufacturing reminds me of the mini trophy trucks or truggy that are on the market, but the difference is that the transmission passes through the center of the axle and not on the side.
I would love to see torque arm rear suspension. It would match the front and be simpler than this, i think. Love the work.
Unless you put heavy chain tensioner on top and bottom it’s going to chuck chains all day long!chains don’t like to be twisted.
Not really true. Motorcycle powered mini sprints have fully articulated rear suspension. Grind hard has chain drive on senderella too and that's never had chain issues. A guide on the bottom of the rear sprocket is all you need.
@@jasonbirch1182 “not really true” or not true?I’ll come back to you on the first outing of the project 😁
@@jasonbirch1182 yea but look at their designs vs this. watch the sprocket again when he picks it up and flexes it, it adjust itself a good 20 degrees. Theres a reason fourwheelers dont articulate, that would be it, side by sides are portal driven, crosskarts (basically this), independent rear suspension with the chain in the middle (also why i hate jackshafts to move a chain) so yea, plenty of stuff to pick out. also, mini sprints chains are also in the center like a racing go kart
@@crawfish5278 mini sprints and race carts are not centered chains. A bottom tensioner and a guide will keep it where it should be. Debris and terrain strikes are another story. 4 wheelers don't articulate because there's not really a good way to set it up with a live axle for a few reasons . Utility quads are independent for the most part now so they're more stable over uneven terrain.
@@iainburns4493 well do you mean the part "it needs tensioners top and bottom", "it's going to chuck chains all day" or "chains don't like being twisted"? In general not really true covers it, but specifically "not true" is chains don't like being twisted. They're fine with it if it's set up correctly. Guides, geometry in the suspension and tensioners are all capable of keeping things happy. So if he sets it up properly your" it's going to chuck chains all day long" is also not true. It's going to destroy the solid triangulated arm the first time it side slaps something at speed when it jumps sideways and he comes off throttle so it will certainly chuck the chain after that. It needs a ladder bar on the drive side and a panhard bar(or watts link) the chain should ideally be inside the ladder bar too. A parallel 3 or 4 link with panhard would work too and give the possibility of adjusting antisquat geometry as well. He has no concept of most of those things so it's not going to happen.
Love your work!! Not wild about the setup. As you said, it’s gonna be fast. I myself am not wild about chains whipping around the jewels or main arteries in my legs!! I’d rather see seating position moved forward, center your mass more. Rear engine I think would be safer and easier.
For articulating rear end, your rear sprocket needs to be at the centerline of the axle. Multi-link that is used in cars like the Alfa Romeo Spyder are simple and do what you want. Even a pan hard rod that is used in cars like the Fiat Spider are good enough.
Really curious to see how it goes and well done for willing to try new things! 💪💪💪
Search Watt's Link, Jacobs Ladder, Panhard Bar, Wishbone, and Triangulated 4 Link. You could easily add a wishbone on top that goes around the seat to mount to the frame having a single rod end in the center of the axle.
it will not move side to side and it won't bind.
The style of swing arm your making Chris is a solid pan hard bar. Its used when the engine is attached to the swing arm. Will be interesting to see how it works set up the opposite way.
I think the main difference to the 4 links will be the bending moment on the tubes. In the 4 links you only have longitudinal forces so you can use lighter tubes.
Try a three link with track bar design. The links don't even need to be triangulated if its got a track bar.
You could also put the joints on the axle and have vertically moving hinges on the frame
I love all your builds Chris 👍😎🏁🇺🇸
I think the rear is like a three link mashed with a four link 3+4=2 I guess it adds up lol…. I am really intrigued to see how he makes the chain work with the twisting
Love it so much keep it up as always 💘
Cool design as always really like to see you try things out.
Will the chain stay on?
Your rear suspension design Reminds me of a De Dion suspension. Keep up your creative designs.
Definitely gunna pop a chain ALL the time
I've enjoyed watching your skills improve over the years. I do see a few problems with your rear suspension. Your modified swingarm pivot being rearward from your jackshaft drive sprocket is going change your secondary chain length, throughout the rear suspension travel. Additionally, any articulation is going to move your sprockets out og alignment with each other. It will be interesting to see how you make this work. Keep up the awesome work. I don't always agree with your engineering, but I really enjoy your channel. Dont let the trolls get you down... they ain't building shit.
Gearing is easier than you think. I usually start by choosing a desired top speed. If you know the maximum rpm at the Transmission output and the tire circumference, it's just a matter of choosing the combination of the four sprockets, to get the correct rpm of the axle. Choosing the correct combination now will make it easier to build your much needed chain guides and guards.
Trailing arms 72 chevy c10 pickup.That is what this is.I also have a ford ranger with twin I beam front suspension and I love it
This project is awesome Chris may want to think about camber in the front articulation but I think the upper control arms would have to tuck under the frame like a checkmark in order to pivot inward slightly which I think would pivot off the frame rail and the tip of the short span of the checkmark then “v” down and reach up to the top of the spindle right in between the lower control arm
The checkmark angle would need to be acute or close to I believe in my imaginary version but Chris could do it
Most two links use a trailing arm or ladder bars. Will be interesting to follow this build.
I’m looking forward to seeing how you get on. I’ve had a similar rear suspension idea to you simmering on the brain for a few years now, only differences being I wanted to mount the engine to the fixed trailing arm and it was for a dirt oval racing go kart where any bump steer, unstrung weight issues or variation in travel could be calculated into the design. Good luck 🤞
I see a lot of chain coming off comments below, and you need to remember that problem is a simple easy fix with chain GUIDES to keep flappy chain on the sprocket. Should not even require a tensioner if pivot point is fairly close. It's not a rock crawler, like he said, and it won't have nearly the same travel. This is not his first chain drive rodeo!
The point is that the chains are not made to take a twisting load. They will wear out like crazy and try to walk off the sprockets all the time when this rear axle is articulated. We make these points because we have all been there. The funny thing is I don't think he actually heeds any advice from the comment section. There are tons of good points that are put into place at everyone of his videos. All the failures of each project had been pointed out in the comment section before he ever gets to the failure. Yet he continues his builds and fails right where the comments have said it would.
You might need to rewatch the graveninja build, and grind hards barbie jeep.
Ran 2 link modified dirt cars for many years and always had to run a j bar and a pull bar. Much lower power applications here so it’s going to be interesting
That rear suspension is typically called a radius arm suspension. It comes factory on the front of some pickups and is used a lot on hot rods.
A panhard will swing on an arc side to side a little. It looks like it'll only shift to one side during extreme articulation. You won't be going fast and won't notice the movement imo
This is amazing
For your 2 link, look up g wagen suspension. You need to have 2 mount points on your axle per side, one in front and one further back. The arm should curl under or over the axle a bit. It won't prevent side to side movement ans with your heim joints up front it'll still move. One way to prevent some of it would be to use leaf spring bushings or make a delrin/brass wide bushing to your front point and have heims on the rear points to allow side to side travel
you could do a partially triangulated four link if that setup doesnt end up working where either the uppers are triangulated and ur lowers are parallel or vice versa
I've heard you talk about asking your dad for advice and I don't know whether you've ever introduced the channel to your father but I imagine he has got to be supremely proud of how good you've become at this
I like your thinking of keeping things simple, but I do agree with manic racing comments that 4 link with a panhard rod would be a more stable and reliable setup. But best of luck with how the project progresses.
Put the rear sprocket on some kind of swivel to keep it alligned with the front sprocket when the axle articulates.
even with the seat i recon you could fit a watts link behind it. can be done in two configureations, but having centre mounts going to the links at either end means better roll center adjustment, and it eliminates that side to side movement you have, and would still have witha panhard or radious bar setup. the two fixed bars instead of 4 link would still work with it too
Your side to side articulation on the front heim joints is going to cause the rear axle to move side to side. That rear triangulation bar is going to fight it but I think you're putting a huge bending moment on that left bar.
In the automotive world that is trailing arm or truck arm style rear suspension. Usually includes a pan hard bar for side to side control
It will work exactly as you think and it has been done before
The Chain Popper 1.0
To keep weight down you could try a corvette type mono leaf spring to each side of the rear from under the seat
Pretty much works as a four link does but doesn't have to retain a pinion angle for drive shaft so i dont see an issue as long as you can get the chain guide attached to the rear axle bottom only top will be under tension and just needs some guide at top of jack shaft side
Should try and find a small axle with a diff so you can have it flex with out the chain coming off and have a chain drive to a drive shaft to make the rear end work properly with out any problems 👍