A Noble Failure: The Big Bore 94 and It's Orphaned Cartridges
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2024
- The good folks at Winchester tried to get the Model 94 ready for the 21st century. The experiment and the three cartridges, the 375, 307 and 356 Winchesters discussed. Very useful concept but it's hard to track against the zeitgeist of the time.
I have owned one in 356 win for something like 10 years and I absolutly love it. It doesn't get the use it deserve due to lack of commercially available ammo but a couple times a year it gets to go with me for deer and boar hunting.
agree, plus 2 Colorado elk in heavy timber . . . unless you "roll your own" . . . ammo on GunBroker today at $4 and change per round . . . plus shipping.
I've have all of them in the XTR, 7-30, 30-30, 307, 356, 375. Had the Marlin 336 and the Savage 99 in 375 Win also, I like lever guns lol. The 375 was the best Winchester IMHO and I still have one. 307, the barrel was to heavy, 356, I didn't like the Monte Carlo stock, the Savage was to long and the Marlin, though smoooooth was a bit heavier. When ammo started to dry up for the odd calibers and Winchester went out of business I sold off the most of them thinking there wouldn't be a better market then when I sold. I was wrong lol.
I believe the model 94 big bore died because the Browning BLR came along. BLR with it's detachable magazine offered most of the features of the 94 without the tube mag hassle . The BLR was just simpler for the hunter to use.
Might be a part of the picture for sure.
The BLR and it's predecessor were already out, I owned the straight stock all steel version in 30-06 and the BLR with semi pistol grip in 30-06.there was a version before that one and dates to early 1970's.
Very informative video. I just acquired form a friend a Marlin 375 in the 375 Winchester, and found that they only made a total of 16,000 between 1980-1984 production ceased. the out side has a few dings barrel well not even 2 boxes went through it and has killed 8 very large whitetail bucks. looking forward to shooting it soon shooting hard cast lead my range is limited to 125 yds max. most under 55yds even for black bear. Gave me great ideas on loading thanks a bunch, plus i like that 356 outstanding.
I like the Winchester model 94, but I'm a bit more fond of my Marlin 336 mainly because my grandma gave it to me while I was in gunsmith school.
Great information thank you for sharing this great video! 👍🏾😀❤️🇺🇸
Thanks mate!
I recall when they first came out in
.307 Winchester and I wrote Winchester and said it would be cool if you bring it out in a 24 inch barrel, with rifle fore end cap, semi pistol grip stock .
i have a 375 win.....in a marlin, called the model 375, basically a 336 chambered in 375 win. They only made 16 thousand of these marlins and i must say its a great little rifle, true side ejection, light and handy. Ive only killed 3 whitetail deer with hand loaded 200gr sierras, it does a great job. If your hunting deer or black bear in thick, heavily forested areas the 375win does a great job at anchoring these animals, thanks for the video!
Had a Savage 99 in 375. killed one Blacktail with it and sold it in a moment of weakness. Big mistake 🤦♂️
Have the .307 as well as the .356 BB, great gun out in the bush or on the range. Keep up the great site...
Thanks mate!
I watch this video from time to time when I need some reference, the information presented for different caliber's their weights and bullet integrity from different manufactures is price less, very good job, if you plan on hunting with a lever action, their is enough information presented to make a educated choice. John
I’ve owned my 94 xtr Bib Bore in 375 win since 1984. It’s a wonderful cartridge but Winchester was shortsighted when it came to the round itself. To design a round that for all intents and purposes is an updated 38-55 just a slightly shorter case and then boosting the pressure to 50,000 was an accident ready to happen. If you’re going to create a new round with way more pressure don’t design it to easily fit the chamber of a much weaker caliber.
Yes..that is true. I wish they'd had success with this round and brought out the 40 they were planning.
Looks like all things considered, the .356 Winchester was the winner of the range/energy wars within the Model 94 family.
Yup..pretty good carbine for the Yukon/Alaska!
Too bad Speer stopped making the 220gr FN in .358 but still produces the 180gr. I still use my 356 in both my marlin 336ER and 94 XTR. I have plenty of factory win 250gr I bought cheap back in the early 1990’s.
@@ronkay1573 Pretty hard to get correctly stamped brass for the .356 now, and expensive if you do.
I’ve kept all my factory win 356 brass and have RCBS dies (356/358) so I’ll eventually handload. Might try the Speer 180’s thinking it’ll be plenty for Louisiana deer and wild hogs. I have over 25 boxes of factory win 356 in 250gr to use first. I have 5 rifles in 356.
@@ronkay1573 You are the jackpot!
I like the Winchester lever guns much more than the alternatives but I like pointed bullets.
Doing 1900 ft/sec with Buffalo Bore ammo in 38-55 255 grain bullet. Buffalo Bore 38-55 is compatible with the 375 win per Buffalo Bore.
The first rifle I was shown as a 10 year old lad was a BB 356 . I liked it. Didn’t get it. Dad said 30-30 was just as fine a hunting rifle plus ammunition was readily available. A marlin 30AS with dark wood. I had it putting 3 shots in a triangle quarter sized at 100 yards . 3” high . 170 grain Winchester Silver Tips was the best load . Also 125 grain Federal hollow point shot well . PMC Starfire Eldorado rounds were not accurate as others. But in the brush county those 170 grain copper solid hollow points will drill through a black oak and kill a deer . Remington “ clean bore” “ deadly mushrooms “ never impressed me while hunting. The poke holes through deer like a FMJ in my experience. Plus they do well to shoot 2x bigger groups than Winchester for me at that time.
No flies on the good old 30-30. Better as loaded today than ever before! My dad used to take one deer every year with one 170 Silvertip through the heart/lung area. He used to claim 1 box would last him 20 years and I think he was on pace before he quit hunting.
north61 I took a decade brake from hunting game when I lost my hunting partner/ Father. Now I got a itch for Ram. I really like that 71 Winchester of yours. Nice rifle! Thanks for your uploads I enjoy the big bores
I owned a Big Bore Model 94 in 356 WIN back around 1986 / 89. This rifle introduced me to handloading as store bought amo was hard to find and quite expensive. The only bullets I ever used for reloading were the Speer 180 and 220 grains, never could decide which I preferred. As far as factory amo went I loved the 250 grain Winchester Silvertip but could not replicate it's performance with my 220 grain handloads. My 356 WIN is long gone but in 2017 I bought a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem as I still have a large stock of 220 grn. Speer bullets. The 35 Rem is no 356 but is much more pleasant to shoot and still meets my needs. I can't help but notice 356 and 307 amo is impossible to find these days. I have always wanted a 348 Winchester but the round seems as hard to find as the 356. Thanks for an informative review.
You can probably load that 35 Rem up to 375 Win levels. Factory ammo is kept to low pressure to work with some of the old Auto's.
Wonderful stuff. I own 94’s in 30-30, 7-30 Waters with a 24” barrel, .307 Winchester, and .375 Winchester. I love them all. I’ll have a .356 eventually ! Then maybe I’ll have a .307 built with a 24” barrel...
I like the 307 better than the rest but the 356 would be an awesome moose round! the 7 waters and 375 both have a cool factor too. Great family!
Then you may like the marlin mxlr in 308
I at first thought it was obsolete right from the start,,,, based on others opinions....
I now think that's what guys who like it say to kill the competition and keep.the prices down...
I hunted a Win 94 BB AE XTR in 307 for years and killed one of my biggest bucks with it using 180 gr. bullets. Love the rifle as handy woods rifle but a Savage 99 in .308 or .300 Sav can do all the BB does and more.
I own a Marlin 336 in .375 Win as my straight wall state rifle that can also shoot 38-55 bullets as well.
I think the .375 and 38-55 will make a come back as more and more shotgun only states allow straight walls. I would rather hunt a vintage straight wall caliber in a Marlin or Win 94 BB than any of the newer straight wall cartridges.
The straight wall states will probably cause renewed interest in these perfectly capable "failed" cartridges.
Not to be a critic but in 1998 Winchester made the Big Bore in a 444 Marlin. The catalog showed it called the Big Bore but it just says 94 AE on the gun. I have one new in the box still. They did keep making a Timber Carbine in the 444 for some time thereafter.
Love your channel. Great content. Thank you.
Thanks..a few other people let me know that...It would be a great combination!
@@north61 I kinda wonder if the 444 was another reason for Winchester not rolling out the 408. I’d be curious to see how they would have matched up.
@@redcanyonoutdoorquest6220 That's a good point! I'd like to find more out about the .40 Win plan!
Kinda funny, how Winchester and Marlin had rather similar concepts towards the end of their "old" life. Winchester's .356 and .307, and Marlin's .308 and .338 Marlin Express.
I owned 3 Big Bore 94 rifles, the Win 375, Win 356, and the 444 Marlin in the Big Bore 94. I am surprised you didn't mention the 444 cal. I could never find a 307 to complete my collection.
I never knew that the 444 was made in the Big-bore configuration, I thought by that time they did away with the strengthened receiver as the 444 is loaded to less pressure. Thanks for this I guess the 444 was made at the tail end of the Big Bore era.... loaded to potential it would be quite a load!
@@north61 I believe it came out before the 307 and 356. I was used to the Marlins and that Winchester kicked like a mule with the rifled barrel. It is hardly a light powered cartridge with 3000 ft pounds of energy at the barrel. I have a T/C Contender which was a 44 mag re-barreled by JDJ at SSK to 444 Marlin as well. I also have my dad's WIN model 94 in 32 spl made during WWII. Yeah check out the Big Bore 94 in 444 Marlin. A lot of videos on it on CZcams. Thanks for the reply !!
@@doublel7337 My research has it coming out at the end of the line.
@@north61 I wouldn't argue that fact, I really don't know. I bought the 375 Win 1st then the 444, and later the 356. Always wanted the 307, just never found one.
Good morning Yukon61. I appreciate the detail you went through with the expansion velocities and effective lethal range on caribou and moose. As a lever gun enthusiast I get really disappointed the .356 Win and the .375 Win were discontinued as a regular production weapon.(I think the same thing about the Model 99 Savage.) As a business that needs to build products the public buys they are not going to produce weapons just because I may want one of that style and caliber. I know Winchester bulked up the receiver for the Model 94 for the bigger bores. My question is, the .348 Win is more lethal at extended ranges so the receiver must be different from the Big Bore 94 if it can handle the higher pressures. I've never seen nor shot a .348 so I am not familiar with the receiver.
I really appreciate the work and detail you go through with the leverguns. When you mention the zeitgeist of the time it always seems I'm in an alternate dimension, always out of step with the current popular culture.
The 348 is a way bigger cartridge and the Win 71 is also big and heavy and designed to handle long/fat cartridges were the 94 was designed to be small and trim. The 71 is an updated 1886 which was designed by John M Browning for big and long cartridges from the old era. The 348 is the big 50-110 case necked down with an impressive taper but it holds a lot of powder. So much powder that even loaded to 38,000PSI it is slightly more capable than a 356 Winchester loaded to 50,000 PSI. The .348 has a little better ballistic coefficients as well as it's bullets have a better b.c than 358 bullets if they are the same design. The lever revolution load in the 348 leaves the muzzle at 2560 ft/sec and is fully capable of 300 yards shots on caribou.
The 1886 and 71 are able to be chambered for the 450 and 50 Alaskan cartridges which tread on the heals of the 458 Win Mag. That would be a great Bison cartridge.
My dad has model 94 it's his favorite out of all his guns ammo is a little hard to fine and it's not cheap
Great video with profession content - thanks for taking the time to do this. This video should have well over 50K views - need to figure out a way to promote this!!
Thanks.. I might confuse my "brand" as I have a lot of interests and through them all on the channel. This leads to a diversity of content that is a bit idiosyncratic.
so in the end, effective range comes down to muzzle velocity. "Power" at short range comes down to mass.
speed helps long range expansion but so does hanging on to speed with good ballistic coefficient.
Had a .375 big bore but always would take the .348, .405 or .45-70 in a lever action, all heavier than the M94 Big Bore .375 WCF, but in my mind more likely to be used hunting, so I sold the big bore .375, do not regret the decision overall, simply because the others hold more interest
Fantastic informative video! I love the 94 big bores and have the 356 and 375. I'm looking for a 307, but haven't found a good one yet. All of your info is spot on. I totally agree with your findings. Winchester kinda screwed the pooch when they offered the big bore in 375 Win to start. I'm guessing if they would have begun with the 307 and 356, things may have been different. Thanks for the outstanding video.
It's an interesting topic. I think the idea was 30 years too late. People who transitioned to scopes as youngsters grew up with the bolt action. Not enough potential customers when they finally modernized.
@@north61 definitely alot working against the success of the big bore. I agree that scopes and bolt actions were becoming more popular at the time. It is too bad. These are fantastic rifles. Arguably the best levers Winchester produced.
Subbed You Excellent Channel and Info 😀
Very interesting data there mate !
I enjoy your videos. Winchester is fond of making limited runs of past production rifles. I wish they would do another run of 1886 levers chambered for 33 Winchester. The 348 made it obsolete but then the 348 was never really that popular itself, though it is one of my all time favorites. With the strength of the 86 action and with modern bullets and propellants, it would be a reloader's cartridge. Oh but if it's not tactical, these days no one really cares.
The 33 Winchester in an 86 would be a very easy cartridge to shoot and a great deer to moose gun. Most everyone in Rural Canada hunted with a 303 as you could buy one for 20.00 back in the day. However I read about the 348 and .30-06 in American magazines at school and dreamed about someday owning and using these classics. And here we are!
The receiver on those looks really nice I think they must have changed the metal or the bluing because I know a lot of the post 64s had issues with the receivers finish. Do you think that the 94 XTR and 307 Winchester is consistently that accurate or do you think you just got lucky with that one? Did they make one of these in a 24-in? I think for aperture sights the 24-in should be really nice. Thank you 👍
They are almost all good. The heavy barrel really helps the accuracy by stiffening it up. They shoot 3 shots well but typically open up as the barrel heats up when shooting 5 shot strings. I sold mine as a really nice Savage 99F .308, shot just as well with more speed and was lighter to boot. No 24" model all where 20".
@@north61 Excellent info I was wondering why I couldn't find a 24-in. The 20 will be fine I'm just glad they're accurate and you're still getting near 308 performance out of them with a 20 inch barrel. Thank you 👍
@@north61 have you ever tried a really heavy bullet like the nosler partition 220 round nose? I know it was slow down quite a bit but it have a really high sectional but you might not have any range to expand the bullet. Might be good for dangerous game up close?
The kind of person that buys a lever action to hunt with wants to be able to buy ammo at common places like WalMart. Winchester should have used a bigger but more common cartridge that could work in the lever action.
I guess it's a chicken and egg thing..if enough people had gone in this would have worked out.
You should be able to keep the barrel profile.
I'm wondering if that action is strong enough to handle the 460 S&W magnum.
No..not with top loads. The 460 is a hot little number!
What's your opinion on using a heavy 375 load for short range bear protection?
The long bullets penetrate well and would be excellent for aCNS shot that would put the bear out of commission. Also not bad for breaking a shoulder. The wound channel is a bit small for a quick lung shot kill. Excellent for black bear, adequate for mountain grizzly maybe not enough for Brown bears.
@@north61 I've got a 35 Remington, a 454 Casull, and a couple of 45/70s in heavy lever action rifles. How does it compare with them?
@@Paladin1873 IMO, slightly better than the 35 Rem, and about 75% of the 45-70 when the 45-70 uses modern loading pressure and I know nothing about the 454. I think of the 375 as the little, milder brother of the 45-70/450 Marlin.
@@north61 454 Casull is a high pressure .45 Colt essentially. Peak pressure limits are 65,000 psi. With 300 gr loads on the market, in a 20-inch Rossi R92 it'll achieve 2000 fps, and 1650 fps from a handgun.
@@exothermal.sprocket Thanks for helping out! Essentialy equivelant to a modern loaded 45-70 with light bullets in a more compact package. Not bad!
I’d be curious about this analysis applied to the 45-70?
When the bullet is 458 around the expansion becomes less important and some of the bullets are very soft so expand at slower speeds. This is partially true for the 375 too, I was probably a little hard on it.
That was great. I like the chart. I like to play with the ballistics calculator but I never have them all together like your chart. I also like to look at maximum point blank range for 8" . Thanks
Brian Lee talked to you on the other channel. Got the 38-55 and it’s a shooter but chambered for .377 bullets. Having a great time sighting it in and update you to get the tang sight from Taylor’s.
@@dphillips4351 Excellent news. Did you go with the 20" or 26"? I've been trying to decide. I love the long sight radius of the long barrel but that's an awful lot of barrel too... Let me know what yours is and what you think? Thanks for sharing
Went with the long barrel which is heavier but I feel being more ridged more accurate.
@@dphillips4351 I think with a Tang sight it should be a lot of fun and accurate. Do you do any long distance shooting? I've seen guys shooting the 38-55 out to 800 yards with the Tang sight. Good luck
@@brianlee6849 Am going to try the longer ranges but still waiting on the tang sight. I fired Buffalo bore, Winchester, and Hsm the first day. The Buffalo bore was extremely accurate but the others were under powered. I will probably use long star line brass and .377 diameter 255 grain bullets for reloading.
I'd like to see a 356 with a 24" barrel (trying to graner that 100fps) and a short mag tube for 4 shells. An Angle eject would provide an opportunity for a low power scope.
I'd look at it. 338 Marlin Express too!
@@north61 I agree with you, pretty much. I, too, would love to be able to screw a 24" barrel on my .356. But a .338 Marlin? If you think the .356 is an oddball caliber, which it is, the .338 is almost unobtainable. Especially now, with Marlin up in the air, waiting for Ruger to settle this issue.
@@williamkaiser8067 You make a good point.
I love that graph at the end. I think the 307 is great I'm still thinking about buying one because I would like to have a little more range with the handyness and more range than a 30-30. But I think the average guy in the States is totally satisfied with the 30-30 and doesn't really hunt beyond 125 to 150 yards. The hunters down here that hunt beyond that go to a bolt action . I think most would agree with you I just think lever actions in bolt actions have there roles and levers are seen as close range. But I'm still really wanting a solid 200 yard zero in a open sight lever action. My dilemma is Winchester XTR 307 or Marlin Express 308! What do you think? Any experience with Marlin MX ? Thank you 👍
I liked the 307 but Winchester put a 1/2 pound heavier barrel on it taking it out of the original Model 94 light and handy class. Add a scope and you lose most of the charm of the lever carbines. In the end I found a Savage 99F that weighed in at 6.4 pounds in 308. The 308 is a better round. The Marlin express 308 is a shortened 307 that can use a longer sleeker FTX bullet that starts a bit slower but catches up past 100 yards or so but never equals the regular 308 which can use any spitzer made. The Marlins are also a bit heavy. I sold my 307 and kept the 99F 308W.
@@north61 I don't plan to use a scope which ever one I choose will have a receiver sight. I'd really like to hold them side by side but difficult to do unless I find both at a gun show. The 308 Winchester is definitely superior if I did go with a 308 Winchester it would probably be a model 70 or Tikka but probably the model 70 because I love those receiver sights. I'm just not a scope guy. So probably the model 70 because it is the only bolt action I know that will accept a quality micrometer sight. Thank you 👍
@@brianlee6849 In that case all three are very similar. For open sights the 307 with 1890 Barnes Original or 170 RN Partition is hard to beat.
@@north61 Excellent 👌 I would like the Winchester because I grew up with Marlin and I have never owned a Winchester. Thank you 👍
I own a Win 307 BB AE XTR and hunted it for years as my #1 rifle. Great handy woods rifle for PA, NY, CT where I used it. Shot several of my biggest bucks with it. I did have a few shots beyond 200 I could not take so I changed #1 rifles to the Savage 99 platform in .300 Sav, .250 Sav, .358 Win and .308 Win which allow me to reach out and touch big bucks at 350 or 400 yards.
The Win .307 BB was a great rifle for me for more than a decade.
Winchester killed the big bores when they immediately soft loaded the .375 Winchester! There is no reason that cartridge can't be putting out an additional 300 fps!
That's very true. Not sure why the 200 PP are going at 2030 in Factory Ammo which is in the 30-30 range! Like you say 300FPS more isn't hard to do.
Thanks for a great review!
A quick question; you said the barrel on the .307 is heavier than on the .375. Do you know whether that is because the barrel is wider in diameter, or is it because the .307 is a smaller caliber and thus leaves more metal left on a similar diameter barrel?
Both the 307 and 356 have a larger diameter barrel..they weight 1/2 pound more than the regular 94's. This is why they are so accurate but they are also less handy!
north61 Thanks for the reply. Just a follow up question; when you say «regular 94s», do you include the 375 win in that category?
@@sondrefagerliie6895 Yes, The 375 has the strengthened receiver which might add an ounce or two but the barrel is very light as on a regular 94.
north61 Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I am asking because I am rebarreling a Marlin 336 in 30-30 to 375 win, and have to decide on whether or not to keep the original barrel profile or increase the diameter. If so, I cannot use the original barrel bands etc
What cartridge offers the most *knockdown* on deer at 150 yards, for the *least amount of Recoil?*
Cheers for your help!
Sorry I missed this. 307 Winchester really hammers deer. The fast energy dump drops them very fast. I always found the 307 or 308 kills deer size game faster than the 358/356 or 375. Moose is a different story but a 30 caliber is hard to beat for deer.
I know many people whom have shot moose with a 30-30 way past 75 yards. One running shot out to 400 yards by one of my Old Neighbors.
Sure..but the bullets won't expand and at 400 yards you have about 500 foot pounds with the original flat noses. Will it kill, yes, is it sporting or humane? No. We have killed every moose we have shot at, most with one shot by sticking with 1500 foot pounds. I guarantee that someone shooting at a moose at 400 yards with a 30-30 left a lot of dead moose in the woods.
@@north61 Uh, no, there were no moose left behind. These people hunted to eat; there were a few bets placed, and was won. 500 foot pounds is still more than any bow (muzzle loader that killed grizzly) will produce, and you only need 50 foot pounds to penetrate skull (39 on a human so air rifle territory). Clarence would only shoot at running animals, as he could not hit a standing one.
We will agree to disagree on this one.
@@north61 That will be fine. My Old Neighbor can only hit running animals, and he popped one into a bull moose a long way out, straight through the eye. Just do not make him shoot at a standing animal.
@@bradyelich2745 Well an eye shot into the brain would do it!
Very informative. I just inherited a .375 from my dad that passed in august. It is one of the very early built ones, and it is brand new, never fired. Is this something worth keeping? It could literally go back into the gun stores as brand new. BB038936 serial number. No clue if this is worth much or not.
condition condition condition.... also the early ones are most desirable. Here in Canada you have an 11-1200.00 firearm. Not sure what it is worth in the USA..probably more.
@@north61 central Canada bud. South of Winnipeg MB. (: good to know. It is as I said...brand new never fired, and not one spot of rust.
Hey..we'll claim you as a fellow westerner!
@@north61 I’m with you on that buddy!!!!
Wow that 356 looks like a great yukon gun!! And bragging about taking running moose at 400 yard with a 30-30 is not a smart thing to do, or at least I would't brag about it my self hahahaha
I bought a .356 when it was first released as a side eject. I have a compact scope mounted and it's tack drive accurate and hits like a sledge hammer. Don't think i will ever part with it. 1/2" groups all day at 50 yards with 220 grain Speer bullets will knockdown anything you'll find in North America. Too bad Winchester discontinued it.
I'm know you have dabbled with the 9.3 X 62. .how is it on game and such. Also have you done anything with the 338
Federal sorry
@@steveblack5952 Not yet but might rebore my 308 Savage to 338.
I dont think you have made a video I haven't liked. Wait I better make sure I have subscribed.
@@steveblack5952 very nice to hear!
Too lite a bullet beyond 150 yards. Rabbits ok
You believe too much in paper ballistics.
They glide well, but it's all in how you fold it.