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Audiophiles and snake oil
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- čas přidán 19. 12. 2019
- Audiophiles often link all kinds of measurements, like frequency response, signal to noise and distortion of various kinds to the closest to live music. Also working principles like class A, linear power supply, a given component like a DAC chip or silver cables (or anything but silver cables) are seen as ‘ultimate choices’. Have I got bad news for you.
Related link:
The acoustics and psychoacoustics of loudspeakers and rooms - the stereo past and the multichannel future, Floyd E. Toole, www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?e...
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What is also interesting is that the brain compensates by effectively turning up the front end sensitivity as you loose your upper range. To the effect that when new wearers of hearing aids find them overwhelming for a time until the brain turns the gain down a bit. Leading to many wearers thinking the aids have damaged their ears.
Think on it... I have a background in education, a degree in experimental psychology, and in work experience... an electrical engineer... and as a teacher... and as a MUSIC LOVER. The last one trumps all the others and reminds us all that loving music is all you need to become an audiophile. Too many spend their time, effort and invest their interest in becoming an audiofool instead.
Really appreciate the time and care you take to do these videos. I've learned a lot from you. Your videos set a standard for others.
Specialist audio stores, of which there are less and less, can't be "expected" to bear the cost of free advice and in-home trials - only for the the customer to go elsewhere/online. A level of commitment/relationship to purchase must be established to be "rewarded" with that level of service.
Of course
Very enlightening video, thanks you sir.
I just love your dry take on this issue, thanks 👍🏽
Thanks for watching!
Compliments for your, as always, clear explanations concerning our very personal choices to produce, record and experience music in the studio , on stage and in our homes..
what I got from this is as follows:
-there's physical limitations to both an individual's hearing and equipment
-there's limitations to human hearing in general
-recordings will never be live performances in any practical sense
-high end audio equipment is ultimately a subjective pursuit that will always have coloration, so the best thing is to try it if you're interested, but don't buy just because of a spec sheet
Best video I could find on this topic
I would describe your last point in a different way: you choose the equipment of which the artefacts bother you the least😀
Love your take on this subject! I'm not sure the title matches your discussion, though. To me, you have described the amazingly complicated journey recorded music makes to get to your ears and many of the elements that must be managed to make it sound good!
I don't know who you are, but that was the most intelligent and accurate monologue I've ever heard!
Thank you for this video. Totally spot on. People who say that their system will reproduce a live sound need to watch this.
Damn stupid remark as 99% of the time they never heard that track live. If you talking about as per live concert then you are reproducing concert PA sound? Sound engineers mix differently for live concerts. It’s so different from the CD. Very few artistes sound live as their CD.
Great video!
Lloyd Stout ... yes! Let our brain think it’s the real thing. 😂🤣
Pino Paladino ... Paul Young’s ‘Tear Your Playhouse Down’ and ‘Wherever I Lay My Hat’ ... ‘Lady In Red’ by Chris de Burgh. 😬
Exemplary episode Hans! I enjoyed it very much. Keep on going. Cheers
Thanks for the video very informative, it really put things in perspective.
My pleasure!
Its also lot to do with "human" factor in that audiophile game where someones own belief in decisions and being critical about choosing "right" equipment, experience, expectations vs amount of money spend, taste of music, sense of comfort in listening environment, even state of body and mind by listening experience, and so on and on...
No one can really reproduce individuals own listening experience and measure it, if its "right or wrong" so one must educate yourself and choose someone you trust, exemple a guy like Hans!
Spot on
Congrats! Vert balanced and realistic approach! (heb ook een NAK 100 en de AP staan by the way)
Great video. Learn a lot about audio from you and its facinating, plenty more to learn 🥳
Glad you enjoyed it!
I really enjoy this channel - Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Great video and what I learned over 55 years into Audio, room accoutics play a big part and of course good recordings which this days seems not be the norm.
Thanks for sharing!
I'm a vinyl and cd man but always find your videos very informative, thank you and a happy christmas
Thanks for your always clear and incisive commentary.
Hans,
Thanks for your nice explanation.
Groeten uit Nederland. Waardevolle video.
9:20 I may not be an audiophile but I love to hear Beekhuyzen zingers!
I like your inner shirt! 😁 Thank you for your HQ contents for audiophiles.
My pleasure!
Knowing your part about (live) audio recording, do you know that recording engineers/live mixers sometimes provide idle faders for the artist, producer or anyone else who wants to intervene with their job, to play with? And that this foolery seems to work too?
Top effort Hans
🙏🏻
Thanks, Hans, as always.
My pleasure!
When streaming music videos from, for example Tidal, how can the best results be achieved obtaining the best sound and synchronised video on a tv? I haven’t seen anything that allows the sound to be routed through a hifi and the images routed to a flat screen?
I wouldn’t know. I don’t watch video from tidal.
There does not seem to be much information on either the best techniques or equipment to extend the enjoyment of hi-fi music into hi-fi music videos
I wasn’t sure if there would be any degradation in sound quality doing it that way and if there would be a potential lack of synchronisation between sound and video
degru5091 Thanks for the advice
Well, my class A 300B valve power amp has around 1% THD and my class D around 0,001% and I prefer MUCH more the valve amp.
Always trust your ears, if you can try (at home) any gear.
Pedro Luis Guillemain ... aaaah the sweetness of tube distortion ... the second harmonics. I love it too.
as ever Your video are treasures!
I have a question for You:
Do You think that is better to use the Aries G1/ G2 or the altair G1 wich include a pre in it?
thanks for Your actention and happy Chrismas for You and Your Family.
`I have not reviewed the Altair G1, so I can't tell. But logic sense would say that the Aries G2 must deliver a better signal than the Altair G1. If you then add a high quality DAC....
So true and honest...
🙏🏻
Trust your 👂
This is off-topic, may I know the make & model of the scope? Is it a Tek?
It's Owon
Brilliant. You touched on sound treatment. I like that.
General rule which i learned, you spend double the amount of money on the room than your speakers.
On divorce you mean?
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel thats actually 4x the room treatment :|
I solved all those issues long time ago....I just pay attention to the ''notes'' choice!
good for you
Glad I found your channel again. Your video about the issues with band-limiting recordings to 22.05kHz by imposing a CD sample rate, or otherwise, was incredibly informative. Glad to see you're addressing acoustic concerns on both the recording and playback end as I have written essays on the subject recently and it is infuriating to see audiophiles forego such discussions in favour of fretting about analogue cables and power conditioning. You are truly knowledgeable and now I can direct misinformed audiophools towards your channel!
Thanks
What do i need to drive 400watt speakers? A good amp or a high watt amp?
A pick-up truck?
Just kidding'. Watch czcams.com/video/itKqSWH07_Y/video.html
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel
😆 i see what you did there
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel
I watched the video but didnt understand.
Can i drive 400watt speakers efficiently and good-sounding with eg. A Naim uniti atom even thou it is 60watt per channel amp?
this was fun to watch but also very informative.
I unfortunately don't own a hifi set up, just a couple of dacs, dap, and heaphone amps and a a little collection of iem's and some headphones and lots of different cables pure copper, silver plated and so on.
Nice thing on iem's is you can change sound signature for each day/listening session and fine tune it with the dac/amp and cables for the mood your in and the music style you are going to listen to.
Nothing is absolute in loving sound, some music sounds a little better on a particular set of iem's using thick full coper cables. While other iem's sound wrong and off using the same cable with the same music. The sum of the parts give the full sound experience, and what i like others may hate. Brain burn in (getting used to a particular sound) is a big thing in audio receiving.
Do you ever review speakers?
No, just digital front ends
a device that measures well shows proper engineering and can be used as a baseline in picking a product.
If only....
Actually, Hans most audiophiles ignore measurements and use their ears to judge. It's Hi-Fi manufacturers that unfortunately blind us all with audio science. For many reasons, great specs does not always mean great sound. In fact often the opposite. Saying that, many Audiophiles will make big claims for things that can make a real improvement. Room treatments, speaker placement, marrying different components, analogue vs digital, cables, etc ... the list is long, very long. There is a breed of spec heads though, so maybe you mean them. Its great when specs and ears agree with each other.
Spec heads....I like that word!
@@Iblis666ful
So, Design does not require intelligence?
I worked with an architectural CAD guy that almost gave evidence of that :-D
The Mikes ? You meant 'The Mics', the abbreviation of Microphones commonly used. If you read any English language music recording forum you'll see Mic spelled this way.
Thanks
Just listen, specs don't mean anything.
Does dacs really have souls ? I think better measurements are objectively superior. I'm writing about complete dacs of course not dac chips. But end of the day we are all humans.
DACs have no soul and it is really questionable whether measurements tell the whole story where sound quality is concerned. It's like with whine, there is no way to detemine the quality of whine through measurements. Most of us are human, unfortunately not all of us.
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel Thank you for the response and thank you for the videos. I agree.
Part of the issue, though, is the absence of peer-reviewed scientific literature proving these concepts. That is to say, very few studies have been conducted to demonstrated there truly is a major perceivable difference between a $500 vs $5000 DAC in a BLINDED manner. Even if I follow your advice and go to an audio shop and have them demo these for me, I know which is which, and even if I tell myself I want to be unbiased...subconscious confirmation bias is a real thing and I'm not immune to it; neither are you. To me, a great deal of audiophile gear is in face "snake oil". Almost every instance of DACs sounding MASSIVELY different from one to the other are in the context of anecdote. I truly believe this to be the truth:
A good DAC (no more than $500) into a typical receiver like the Sony STRDH190, into good budget bookshelf speakers like the Sony SSCS5s will sound EXTREMELY good to 99% of the population...even those that are audiophilic. However, people tend to fool themselves into spending ridiculous amounts of money to get "better" and better...and after spending that money would never been able to even admit to themselves that it was all for a difference that was actually imperceptible after accounting for confirmation bias and subjectivity. No one should ever need to spend more than $1000 max for an entire hifi setup that will absolutely satisfy essentially every sane person on the planet.
The fact that no scientific proof ever showed that people can hear differences between cheaper and more expensive gear does not necessarily mean no difference can be heard. It could also mean that too little tests are developed to prove this. Given the investment needed and the lack of commercial weight to do such a test, might be a reason. The argument of unavailable peer-reviewed scientific literature might also be used as a comforting thought to those that can't afford the equipment.....
@@TheHansBeekhuyzenChannel I agree with this sentiment. And, certainly if I could afford the equipment that you're able to, I likely would buy it. I think what I'm trying to get at is: the audiophile quest for high end, ever expensive equipment becomes increasingly diminished in regards to return. Most people can have an audiophile experience under $1000...maybe even less so.
I also didn't say that there is indeed no difference. Rather, that confirmation bias is a very well established phenomenon... particularly in the context of someone knowingly spending thousands on one piece of gear; of course, they are primed to expect a huge difference in sound. That doesn't mean that there isn't a huge difference..rather, it means that there's a massive confounder. Which is fine. If we are all upfront and honest about the massive confounder in question.
I truly believe a large portion of the audiophile community purchases things just to have them. There exists as much of a desire to simply acquire high end gear as there is a desire to really enjoy music...maybe more so for many. This is what seems odd to me.
And quantifying this stuff is not very expensive. I am an academic researcher in basic science... that's expensive. For a company to conduct their own studies demonstrating their products real world value...that's relatively easy. Double blinded sound tests of various pieces of equipment. Double blinded sound tests on many volunteers to determine which DAC they prefer and give a coded questionare evaluation. Look if 90/100 people say this 2000$ DAC sounds better than a $500 DAC, I'd be more confident.
Let me pose this to you: what do you think would happen if a sound test was administered to volunteers in a blinded manner to determine the better sound quality between two DACs, but the two DACs are actually the exact same? I can't say this within any certainty, but my hunch is they would pick one over the other even if there were an option to say no difference. This would very much challenge the validity of the experiment, let alone which DAC was better.
@@peterjon2758 Our brains interpret sound differently, and that I believe is one of the most important and hardest to measure factors in audio science. Given the same inputs, we could have a stark difference in our experience to the exact same sound because it goes through a deeply complex heuristic system-the brain. This system changes by itself over time even if other compounding factors are kept same, like age-related hearing loss. Nevertheless, blind tests would be a great starting point for quantifying the reality behind audio quality.
"Trust your ears" Be careful Hans or you'll be canceled by the "If it can't be measured, it doesn't exist" cult!