Poker Solver Misconceptions and Facing my Fears
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
- In this week's episode, Phil takes on the poker solver and discusses what his reticence was to using them in the past, how he's come to view them now, and what he's learned about himself along the way.
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00:00 Poker Solver Misconceptions and Facing my Fears
01:51 My History with Solvers (Feeling Intimidated and Disillusioned)
05:18 Unpacking the Fear of Solvers (and Having the Idea for The Galfond Challenge)
09:29 Trying Solvers (and Being Surprised By What I Found Out)
11:25 The Misconception About Solvers
14:37 Playing in a Post-Solver Era
Follow Phil:
Twitter: / philgalfond
Instagram: / phil.galfond
Producer: Thomas Deming-Henes
Post Producer: Anne Johnson
Music: DJ Spinello - Hry
I have been playing for 14 years and I identify 100% with everything you say. Thank you very much for sharing bro.
I agree, solvers are a nice unbiased point of view of what an optimal play is in a particular spot, however they don't take into account outside factors like opponents playing style, how you should adjust to that style, exploits you can attempt against them, and what range you have seen them play previously.
Hey Phil, I just wanted to say thank you for this great video. You were spot on with the "too smart to fail/try" notion. I am exactly the same as you are when it came to school. I didn't have to try as hard because I would always have a good grade without hardly trying. This is kinda crazy to say, but I'm like the exact carbon copy of your mindset and Poker career but without the Millions of dollars to show. I'm just now starting to accept that solvers aren't going anywhere and I feel like I really do need to study them to further elevate my game. It's great to see that a guy like you in the Poker world can be vulnerable and be honest to the public about stuff like this. I am deeply inspired by this video and I just really want to say thank you.
would ve writen exactly the same message basically. thank you dude!
My problem with solvers is that they are often misunderstood and used incorrectly, people check their line with a solver and don't even bother to think "hmm why does the solver do this" and I always tell people two things about GTO
1. Studying exclusively GTO will lead you astray
2. What the solver does is less important than why it does it
People are checking their lines, but not thinking what principles does this spot use, and why does the solver want to bet huge with J9s in this particular spot
Great stuff, your honesty and sincerity come through in every word. Much appreciation and big respect to you brother.
This is a phenomenal video, Phil. It applies to all of life, not just poker.
Just watched this now, couldn't agree more with everything you said and strongly relate with the 'too smart to try' thing, familiar with it personally, it's really cool to hear you talk about it in such an open and honest way.
Keep it up phil eventually the algorithm will pick you up you just gotta stay consistent. Your work on blue fire poker is literally GOAT status. If you're ever struggling for content ideas then just revert to that shit. Just like play on gg poker high stakes for 1 hour then split the video up until 4 parts over 4 days and commentate over it. Community is desperate for that shit i assure you
Obviously don't go as in depth as run it once but like a nice casual chat over modern high stake action
Man, the bit describing the mental relics of your growing up/school experience really resonate with me at least. 🙋🏻♂️
What a thoughtful video--nothing but utmost respect for you Phil!
Excellent video Phil! Respect for upsetting some people! Couldn't agree with you more :)
As someone that has been following your exploits from the early days I appreciate what you are saying. ❤
Thanks Phil. I remember watching you on poker after dark back in the day,
Cool for you to talk about this, I think everyone does this to some degree with certain aspects and capabilities, I can certainly relate to this
Glad I stumbled upon your channel, great food for thought.
Awesome advice, thanks!
Vulnerable and wonderful video.
Great insight! Thanks for this!
Thank you, Phil.
Great video Phil - could relate a lot to the middle part, where I might be guilty of taking the easy route (for instance to take edges like game selection or increased volume) instead of really trying to figure out your best possible game as a way to protect your ego.
Thanks, Andreas :)
Glad it resonated with you.
Thank you Phil for this insight !
Thank you for this video. it really hit home. I have been trying to study the charts and I feel like my skills are getting worse. I was getting very discouraged. Then I realized that I was discounting all the other skills that used to make me a decent player. Now I am working on trying to incorporate the charts into my existing skill set, instead of replacing them. Thank you for articulating what I was thinking.
Glad to hear the advice found you at the right time!
Great episode. Super valuable ego talk . Thanks for sharing
Great stuff..
Great explanation
And the Gandolf Challenge was some of the greatest poker content ever produced!
You mean the Gandalf challenge? My fav is when Gandalf came back from the brink and beat vinivici. You shall not win!!! Iconic line and then the bass drop whoaaaa
Pure gold!
I totally agree with Phil. So agree than 3 years ago, I said I won’t go on with RIO subscription anymore bc too many coaches were using solvers without any thoughts about why this or this could make sense. The solvers were the god and I wasn’t learning anything anymore (except in your specific videos).
That said, I would say it’s a great topic to try to understand why so many rules nowadays who came from solvers are bad and how very very few people like adamo are creating their own rules by searching what no one does and try to find a new trick… some others like kenney try to discover that on the moment.
I think thinking is way better than learning solvers….
Pure Gold!
Dont let the big secret out Phil! Let the nerds try to memorize gto instead of actually playing.. Great video ;)
Great content Phil
This is what node locking is😂
Dude this sounds like an autobiography of both my high School, and poker career as well!
Thanks for the free knowledge, earned my sub
What a great video
Identifying your opponents patterns seems to be the most important aspect in poker. Of course you need to apply it. Such as if your opponent rarely bluffs you should be folding more. If your opponent bluffs at a high frequency you should be calling more.
Understand how your opponents perceive you. Some players over call. Bluff them less. Some players over fold, bluff them more.
Adjust before they adjust. Connect to the energy. Energy is all around us. It's simply an information field. If you are sensitive to energy you can pick up the information.
You’re right and I’ve always thought this
Ty
So use solvers more as a baseline, as opposed to a script for optimal play? And it does sound like you’re talking about GTO vs exploitative, which a few poker players have mentioned, including Daniel Negreanu. Either way, what you are saying makes a lot of sense. Thank you for this
This is awesome
Thank you!
I fucc w/ you bro bro,
You a man of the people with all this giveback on this channel!!
Great Vid -
Question for anybody: Why would the range that you use to get to a later street, effect how you act on that street? Phil says since you might get there differently than the computer, with different ranges, your action should be different. I just wish that made sense to me.
So like the oro borus eating its tail we went from super system to solvers that solve the problem perfectly now we are going back to old school poker at least for live play
Do you have any solvers you recommend?
What you said at the end of the video is truly the way an AI machine would approach the game. AI would analyze the player's tendencies, and then adjust from a mathematical standing point to exploit the player. There's no such thing as unexploitable, GTO is just the balance between 2 AIs playing with each other.
Phil if everyone played according to a solver, they'd all lose a steady amount of money over time due to the rake and other surcharges (for example in live poker, you have a dealers tip + you visit their restaurants which are often overpriced etc etc) is this correct?
This isn't correct this would be assuming everyone at your table is playing perfectly like a solver. Solvers are break even against each other against real people it wins alot of money because they play so imbalanced. If you could play like a solver you would be winning heaps.
@@supertcg123 My question was "if everyone played like a solver" sir
@@ZGTGaming lol ikr... I believe u r correct i don't think anyone would make money given your hypothetical
yes, all the quicker at low-stakes (high rake). Hold 'Em is a zero-sum game...except for "the house" (casino)
@@supertcg123 wrong playing GTO leaves a TON of EV on the table because you're not exploiting.
Solver says that in this spot, I should call 40%, raise 40%, fold 20%.......are people keeping a diary of these particular spots and what they did. to keep balanced? I'm guessing most people won't remember what they did last time in a particular spot.
my understanding is that solvers are only applicable in heads up situations - is that correct?
H.B.O. is the answer (human been Optimal) 6, 8, 9 ,10 people tables no solver will be able too calculate the mood (bet/call/fold/jam) of each person
Phil is one of the smartest poker players ever. That’s why Tom dwan left him out of the durrrrr challenge. Somewhere I heard this in a sort of mean way …. Poker was easier before Phil decided to teach poker strategy to everybody!! Lol
I watched this to learn something about solvers, but I think I learned something about myself instead.
I havent played in about 10 years and just came back hungry to play again and learning all this new Information about solvers etc.
I think you are on to something. I mean the solvers are an incredible piece of knowledge but since the game tree is so huge, nobody will ever be able to even come close to play GTO anywhere in the near future. Especially because situations such as multiway pots can't even be simulated because they are way too complex.
So maybe some of the studying done with solvers should be taken with a grain of salt. Even a slight deviation of initial conditions such as assumed ranges should influence the solution quite a bit, right?
Also, playing GTO is most of the time probably not the most +EV play, because no human on earth is able to play that way, so a bit more of an exploitative approach is probably more successful, even though it obviously opens up the possibility of getting exploited yourself.
Thoughts?
How can u say solvers are giving the perfect objective answer when the preflop ranges we put for villian in a hand are completely subjective
Okay at the end of the video u say this same point
@@sunny4883 yeah with strongk computers you can solve preflop :)
weak regs still get preflop right even at lowish stakes
Every skill that anyone has learned well enough to be the top 1% of 1% , they practiced and learned to an unconscious competence, aka intuition and poker is a game of incomplete information, somethings will never change, understand where one is in any hand vs certain opponents and having ability to using those skills better. Plus solvers have a long way to go for solving NLHE, let alone PLO.
TL;DR -you cant win by depending on memorization. Solvers, from what I can tell, finesse betting, calling, folding, and the calc of odds. Reads will always rely on the same; intuition. The best definition Ive heard for "intuition" is "reason in a hurry".
Solvers are great, but nothing compares to experience playing the game which is something you have over most people. Optimally I think you want both.
A solver on its own will not make you an elite poker player. Playing poker makes you a good poker player. Most of the best players in the world have played millions of hands of this game.
Do you teach classes?
Are you an infj personality type that’s strong in feel and intuition?
Come join me on the 2 cent 5 cent NLH online. We can't figure out solvers either.
My only criticism of solvers comes from Dr. Vader "Do not put too much faith into this technilogical terror you've constructed. It is insignificant in comparison to the force (reads)".
8:00
You know? Yes I do know.
I am not an expert in solver stuff. But what I do see is that people believe playing like a solver is the best way. I think sure at the highest level vs the toughest opponents. but at the same time, what's the point of playing that (for most of professional players). 2.alot of people selectively apply this so called "gto" on streets they have no clue on. 3. while understanding solver solutions is important, applying it to exploit others is a better way to max capitalize. 4. people playing gto in live games do not have good result as solver is mostly up to 200bbs whereas live poker structure and stack sizes get deeper. Question I have though is given that, how can the studying be done to play well vs people who think they know how to play gto but not playing well?
Very groovy!
Now fire your decorator and your VODs will be even better!
Solvers, HUD and other software has totally ruined poker. It's just absolutely disgusting that HUD's can be used while playing for example.
AI is going to completely kill online poker
Winning in poker means someone else is losing. Losing in poker means someone else is winning. To achieve in poker is to essentially step on people on the way up. Think of all the time wasted, mulling over strategy just tostrip other people of money. It's equally as productive as robbing people at gunpoint, but takes way more time.
People have fun getting robbed at gun point?
😂 while watching training vid😂😂
Un-exploitable isn't un-beatable.
I hate how these mathematical guys are winning. Reading opponents is a dead art-form, which is a shame.
Solvers cant solve the qualitative aspects of the game. Period.
Cope
I'm shocked to see a pro talking like that. You seem to forget that GTO is a baseline that must be used in order to avoid being exploited AND ALSO to exploit leak's opponent. Of course it is not the perfect solution against all player and you have to deviate from GTO strategy every time you have info about vilain. But what is the best strategy against a unknown player or a GTO player? It is GTO. And, how can you exploit your opponent, (let's say vilain is overbluffing the river) if you don't know what is the correct balance between value\bluff? The way you talk you are hesitating as hell and doesn't seem to know the material well. I'm happy to realized that our time is come and yours is over, what the shame ...
We agree to disagree 🙂
Gotta EQ your vocals bro …. Respectfully. And stop rambling. Write some notes and follow a pattern. You’re a great player but bro get it together
Wtf, boring to hear someone else reading from script. Great video Phil