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Why separating PvP and PvE is bad for MMORPGs
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
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Introduction - 0:00
The Problem - 1:43
The Solution - 4:39
People Will Cry - 8:26
Conclusion - 13:17
In this video I discuss why separating PvP and PvE gameplay is bad for MMORPGs.
#mmorpg #mmo #gaming #ashesofcreation #worldofwarcraft #wow #PvP #PvE
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The problem with combining pvp and pve is unbalanced snowballs that end up in 1 sided pvp that isn’t even fun.
The tank death knight lol 1 million health
I completely disagree. I think the nostalgia goggles we had for WOTLK clouds the judgement of a lot of players that didn't see the faults in the systems when it comes to getting BIS through PvE AND PvP. For example, dudes that made guilds just to get all the necessary items for their DK/War, greedily taking all the items they need for PvP, then promptly are disinterested in the raiding guild they created to then proceed to just climb the PvP ladder with their Shadowmournes and Deathbringer's Will items. Or the hypothetical opposite, if there was a PvP item required for high end raiding, they will just gatekeep along with the achievement and mount hunters out there through wintrading and ultimately pay-to-win flaky PvP commitments.
I went hardcore in TBC Classic and PvE'ed to get all the items I wanted on my hunter. I had no access to a pool of willing partners on my server that want to stay in an arena team if I don't log on for 2 days (because life, we are adults with jobs and responsibilities) or I'm busy with the commitment I made to a guild to get gear for arena, locking me out several nights a week from doing arena. The entire experience devolved into GDKPs over guild raids, and buying boosts from some decent players just to pretend I'm enjoying high level arena (which was my passion and in-game raison d'etre).
This all hinges on a loop that respects your time, gives you adequate fortune in the loot casino, and THEN being in an environment with people in a similar situation. Call me crazy, LEGION was the best expansion for this by far (excluding the legendary lottery).
You want good MMOs that do what you want? It has to be baked into the design more synergistically, and not bite off so much of our time with such regularity, and with much less praying to the RnJeezus. Closest WoW has come to what you are saying talking about in terms of PvP/PvE is world PvP, and it was actually incentivized slightly only in BFA (which is when I quit).
You guys at the top or maybe in the US are in a different world (because there were a lot of players that spoke different languages in my TBC experience), you can't compare your situation to the average player. I ended up playing Planetside 2 recently, because the game puts you on a relatively equal power as everyone else from the minute you start playing, and even then there are problems with population, graphics, UI and player gameplay loop experiences (it's a first person shooter, but an MMO).
Everything I said withstanding, what you say you want IN GENERAL would by very nice to have, it's just not a game that has been created yet. Hope you find what your looking for man.
The seperation is there because of the massive skill gap required between pve and pvp. WoW is a prime example of this difference that only gets larger every expansion, as PvE gets easier and PvP gets harder to get into.
I think the solution is making the difficulty and gameplay between game modes closer to each other. Either simplifying combat (RuneScape has a good level for both, the skills you learn in pvp or pve transfer between them), or implementing mechanics in PvE that are used in the PvP like Circle strafing, interupts, switching targets, LoS, positioning, etc. Then when you do either mode you are more familiar with the mechanics and gameplay of the other, and people will be a lot more comfortable trying other modes
I remember old school wow where to get the best gear for a rogue for PvP you had to raid Blackwing Lair for the Bloodfang set. outside of Elemental resist gear you had to raid molten core. It was almost a must to be top 10 on your server. Its what got me into doing raids.
Overall I agree, and as a dedicated PvP player, I'll force myself to try PvE again in Ashes, but I think there's something very important which wasn't mentioned. The PvP experience in a game like WoW or New World isn't found as a standalone game. A lot of PvE players hate us PvP guys because our requests "ruin" the overall MMORPG experience, but this is simply because there aren't any alternatives.
My dream has always been for Blizzard, and other MMO developers, to "export" their PvP mode as a standalone free to play game with some cosmetic monetization. All I want is to play WoW arenas and battlegrounds without wasting time on leveling, gearing, and the other "classic" MMO things you have to do. Just give me PvP as a separate game, with a small balance team dedicated to it, and I'll get out of your hair PvE players. Games like Battlerite have been an attempt at this in the past, but they never came close to the WoW gameplay.
I personally would rather just play a standalone PvP game than a detached PvP MMORPG. I want the whole interconnected package when it comes to an MMORPG.
@@ZybakTV Yeah that's what I really meant. I want someone to make an exclusive PvP game with the same combat as WoW, or other MMOs, so I can just play that. No idea why this game doesn't exist yet since there's obviously a market for it.
im a pvp enjoyer through and through but the times ive found myself pveing ive enjoyed that dungeon here and there and ya raid night a week.
Played a LOT of arenas in Legion, felt like I was always moving the needle with AP in PVE grinding 2s/3s. Made it briefly to US100 and 2200 as feral/disc. Granted I was unemployed amd grinded all day everyday. rBGS with raid team was comical with 3-4 guardians, always did PvP world quests,etc.
Can't say I'd have the same opinion today if i still played as I have a fraction of the time to play but i dont entirely disagree with your baseline points.
I noticed that over the years in wow. That pvp and pve players had this weird rivalry after a while. Raiders just assumed that pvpers were terrible at raiding and vice versa. Which may have been true to a point. But not good for the game community. Especially when Blizz decided to seperate the gear entirely. In vanilla wow back in the day, most players would have a mixture of both pvp and pve gear. Some of the best pvp gear, especially weapons dropped on raids. The two went together. Raiding made a lot of the toolkit your class had useless, where pvp you had to use everything you had available. Pvp is where people could truly show off their skills.
A wow dev said something like this a while ago and it holds true across the genre "PvP players will PvE if they have to, PvE players wont and rather quit than do PvP."
As much as i like the cross pollination, the games that have done it are either shut down, very small population, or have done things to move towards the seperated model. The last decade of even half popular MMOs shows that seperation of the two is whats popular.
BRO I FOUND U BACK IN UR WS DAYS! WE NEEDED THIS VIDEO.
Haha awesome man! 😎
Leave them separate. As a pvp player I will quit the game again so fast if I have to pve to pvp. Unless it’s very very small amount which has never been the case.
Strongest of disagreements. PvPers just quit when they have to tryhard PvE to be viable in PvP. It literally killed TBC Classic PvP in SSC/TK and even more recently WotLK Classic PvP just ~7 months ago, Ulduar/SSC/TK wasn't easily puggable.
It has nothing to do with "being good" at all aspects of the game, it's about not spending more time doing things you hate to be viable when spending whatever little time you have left doing things you like.
Honestly the worst take I've seen.
PS: Incredibly laughable to claim that "people voted with their wallets" - what you mean is "more people played WoW when it was new/semi new and all the rage and had virtually no serious competition on the market - not for PvP and definitely not for PvE".
If the argument is about spending time then shouldn't they just removing leveling, pvp gearing, and everything else that isn't an arena instance? I'm personally of the belief that MMOs are supposed to be time-sinks.
@@ZybakTV yes, they should remove all of those things if they want to keep PvP alive. It's literally proven every time that they add forced long tryhard PvE grinds that PvP activity goes down.
idk man GW2 has all 3 separate and it works so well, but the classes are slightly better balanced for all content there, and gear is all side progression, not super vertical like wow.
I feel open world pvp in wow just sucks a lot, bad balancing, faction imbalance, 95% of the time it's griefing or in SoDs case pvp with pve objectives that turn into pve or pvp shit shows. Once you play games that do it better, you can't take wows open world seriously at how bad it is.
Structured pvp like bgs and tournament pvp like arena was always my go to for pvp in wow, and sadly it's dying out.
I do agree that a mix of both is good for players, but the amount of time and effort required for both is too much for most people now a days. And the amount of gate keeping and elitism makes it so annoying to do either.
I agree with pretty much everything said, enjoying every aspect of an MMORPG is just a better experience than doing separate content.
kinda reminds me of how people are seriously telling riot "yes! we just want the same ol mmo formula with a new skin! stop trying to reinvent the wheel!" these people are so angry that a company dare think they can make something better and insult a fan base for not being smart enough to think of something better they might like. Especially as mmos are dying and their popularity is declining, people still in resentment and being stuck in their old ass phase of being prideful and losers drinking mountain dew and hiveminding. like lowest common denominator death set up in their brains. People are braindead meta chasers "elitist" souless zombies. And I'm seeing it with every game. But I do like a fully interactive world. I also understand just funneling yourself into the thing you like. But a fully immersed world, i fully get it. Riot mmo ftw.
Hey man, I know you from Crowfall. Anyway, I mostly agree but I'd rather my pvp not be dominated by gear in the first place.
It's hard to get away from gear progression in MMORPGs though. I do agree that you can have vertical upgrades that are significantly less than what typical MMORPGs do. In WoW going from tier to tier can nearly double your DPS in some cases which is wild.
I'm a PVE player and I don't like competitive content. I would prefer if MMOs kept progression private, so I could enjoy my game in peace with my friends. I hate that MMO are becoming more and more competitive. So the thought of merging the PVP with the PVE space (to me) sounds horrible. In my opinion, this would destory what little is left of the MMO genre. I don't think having PVE and PVP seperate in an MMO is a bad thing at all, I think it enables the game to accomidate both archetypes of player. My ideal MMO would honestly remove PVP all together and hyperfocus on multiplayer/raid content. In an even more ideal world, I would want raid content to be kept private so that people could progress without comment or judgement. I apprecaite the video, but I don't agree with the title, problem or solution.
World First Raider on a game nobody played. Good job, bro!
I named my cata Classic feral Druid Zybakx, gonna wreck in arenas and restore name and glory in your honor
👑
I wanna be the very best
Like no one ever was
You teach me and I’ll teach you?
I think you have a point but I also want to point out that you keep saying that pve'ers and pvp'ers should do have to do each other's content because they "might like it". And I'm sure there are cases where people have discovered that PvE was fun or vice versa, but you never really address the people who turn out to not like it. I'm guessing the reason Blizz transitioned towards these isolated groups of content in the first place, is that they estimated their playerbase prefers to stick to their own content, rather than having to try other content. You obviously have the opposite impression, or think that people don't know what they want, but that's hard to settle.
Ultimately it's a game design decision. Does it compromise the MMORPG aspect of mmos? Absolutely. But Blizzard must have made the choice on the basis that, they think it's better for the players to have the choice whether they want to engage in content, instead of being forced to.
I wonder if they’d make the same decision in hindsight considering WoW’s fall from glory and the popularity of releasing a 20 year old version of the game.
It's so obviously sh1t design. Artificial & arbitrary. You know those "life is an RPG" tshirts? That's the guiding principle for MMO design. A huge, organic, interconnected world.
alot of the concepts you're referring to already exist and are currently implemented into Season of Discovery. you failed to mention it at all in this video which just lets me know ur a little ignorant on the topic u just ranted about for 15 minutes. i liked the broccoli tangent tho. also there are games like Dark and Darker that perfectly blend pvp and pve and ARE competitive with leaderboards and everything else. i'm sorry zybak u seem really behind on stuff like this. even the end of the video turned into like a "remember when" discussion. you're boomed out buddy.
Season of Discovery is basically a remix of classic WoW. Which is cool but it's not a new game. The entirety of all the iterations of Classic WoW are because of the "remember when" crowd.
@@ZybakTV try dark and darker you'll like it
I realise people will say it's a subjective thing, but sorry it just isn't... there's really nothing sadder than being a PvE exclusive player. Competing against incredibly simplistic scripted bots exclusively, and refusing to engage vs other players. Incredible. This (large) portion of the player base holds the whole genre back for the rest of us.
I will say PvE is more about group organization and group synergy rather than raw mechanics. From a raw mechanics perspective PvE is usually pretty uninspiring compared to PvP. However assembling and maintaining groups + dealing with all the social friction is absolutely a skill.
Except that that is YOUR subjective view
@@XxTavoRxX yeah but it's not though is it
@@jinglyjones1677you say " there is nothing sadder than" that's your subjective statement based on your opinion.
So yes, it really is, and quite entitled to think all people should have to play the game your way
@@XxTavoRxX 1) It was obviously part troll, I know what subjective means thanks. 2) Human competition vs extremely limited bots is pretty objectively more complex & dynamic at the very least. Then ofc you prefer what you prefer.
100% true, but Blizzard sucks and WoW is not an MMO. I would rather they split the PvP off into it's own MOBA IF it meant getting the fuck rid of addon reliance and not having stupidly designed classes for the sake of homogenized over designed rotations because it's fun in PvE and bosses don't complain.
That's more likely than them resolving what you're talking about I think WHILE rethinking class design back to TBC / wrath. Sure though, the ideal moba (Ashes maybe) will synergize both harmoniously.
The addons in WoW have just gotten insane. I don't think games can allow addons anymore with how insanely well developed they are compared to 2004.
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