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Bear aoe is about that tab targeting maul with glyph, while swiping, which is harder than most classes. However, most private server LoD raids feature a bear tank, and most server clears are done with a bear, simply because they don’t compete as much with plate gear, so you can gear two tanks at once, and because they get such a massive EHP
@@wyattmackenzie4967 you could literally say that about any private servers. They all suck, and the meta is different because they are basically party mode servers. People just like them better because no bots, and less greed by company, plus it's free.
Bear Tank really does not need more than Swipe + Glyphed Maul It is rare that I see mobs get away from me even when dps go full bore on aoe at the start of a pull. Combine that with Challenging Roar being 3 minute CD now and Faerie Fire being a great ranged snap aggro tool and Feral really doesn't have issues with threat. EDIT: others have mentioned it but I will too Imo the absolute biggest advantage to playing Feral Tank is that you aren't competing for plate drops with other tanks.
You missed the mark on frost DKs here pretty badly WillE, I expected you to not get brainwashed by Cata+ changes to DK tanking like everyone else who played retail all these years. 23/40/8 was the go to DK tank spec in 3.3.5 wotlk the first time around and it's still an amazing tank spec in classic wotlk that provides better mitigation and better threat than blood. Blood self healing might be good in dungeons but in raids it's almost inconsequential. In order to provide 20% melee haste blood spec also has to severely gimp it's self to the point you are almost useless for aoe tanking, not a good look for an off tank. You also list blood as the highest threat tank in the game "bar none", but frost DKs tanks way out threat blood. Tanking specs for DKs are different than any other class and that makes them a bit confusing, but essentially the core tanking talent requires 23 points in blood and then 36 points in any of the 3 trees. None of the 51 point talents are ever taken for a tank specific spec.
Now THIS MAN played original wrath! Really as long as you grab the defensive cooldown and talents in any of the talent trees, they all should be able to tank perfectly well.
I ran that spec and I had a off tanking spec where I did take 51 points in frost for howling blast. I could not imagine off tanking or aoe tanking without howling blast.
@@JustChristianBlack While having Howling Blast and the 15% extra damage are nice to have, HB is still a worse spend than DnD for AoE threat unless you have a KM proc. However if you were to run the HB glyph you could combine the two at the same time. It's certainly workable, and I've been tanking 51 frost all prepatch myself, but giving up 3% stam and 20% HP self heal is a lot to give up.
@@slappyosis I'm talking about a spec i played in OG wrath @ lvl 80 for off tanking, not this pre-patch. I wouldn't even think about taking 51 point in frost during pre patch, there are not enough points going into unholy or blood, but you still did it?😅😅😅😅 Did you go dual wield too? The self healing is rated too high when you're getting healed as a tank anyway. Frost tanks take less damage then blood tanks.
One addition I'd like to make as an "old" feral tank, by the time Icecrown hits with one or two "heroic" items (looking at you airship chest) a reasonably well geared feral tank, will just not die and while aggro is still a thing to watch, with crazy hp numbers just is so much easier to handle for the healers in clutch situations.
Warriors are gonna be great for Heroic+ dungeons, I might roll one eventually ( planning on skipping the launch and playing around when ToC or Ulduar launches )
I've been tanking with warrior for 6 years on private server now. Very hapy about Heroic+ dungeons because warrior is really good & fun in dungeons. Unfortunately it wont be very likely to get to raids with warrior as a MT.
Stacking the same tank especially in 10man but also in 25man is a huge wearied champ for me, like I know you wanna ride the "Paladin are the best Heal/Tank in Wotlk" Hype train, but stacking any healer/Tank class is a desperate "We need to fill the role with anything we are 20 min past raidstart" move.
Really The differentiating factor between the two tiers of tanks (DK/Paladin and Druid/Warrior) is based around a function in two talents that sadly only Protection Paladins and Blood Death Knights have. Protection Paladins have access to the Ardent Defender talent which reduces damage at or below 35% health by 20% and Death knights have access to Will of Necropolis which does same but just by 15%. Apart from the usefulness of that talent especially when clearing progression raid content, most tanks trade blows in terms of survivability and are pretty balanced. Threat tends to rely mostly on raid composure, proper cool downs usage and just knowing your class I would never recommend anyone play a tank based on threat generation. Still I'll be maining Warrior regardless of performance compared to Paladin and Death Knights.
@@jetplane833 warrior thunder clap (-20% enemy attack speed) + boomkin hurricane (-20% enemy attack speed) and u will never get that low. Only wekness warr has is magical dmg burst
Will of the Necropolis isn't really a major strength of Blood. It's not even in the same galaxy compared to Argent Defender, which actually negates a killing blow and heals you back up to 30% (on top of having a 33% stronger passive effect). Blood is strong because of its cooldowns, self-healing, scaling and flexibility. It's the tank that's most likely to survive a long fight with some healers down. Has more defensive cooldowns than bear and warr combined. Best sustained magical damage mitigation of all tanks thanks to AMS and parry reducing spell damage. High avoidance doesn't grief threat generation unlike other tanks.
@@Dualities I hear this a lot actually. All 4 tanks have the attack speed slow; Thunderclap, Icy Touch, Judgement of the Just and Infected wounds so this is a baseline trait of all tanks. Another factor is that even dps death knights will apply this with Icy Touch which should always be up anyways.
Just to clarify, ferals also use bear form for utility in PvP. Bash is a 30s CD, 5s physical stun and bear charge is 15s CD ranged interrupt and physical root. A good feral druid must know when to use bash (or maim) to support kills, as your burst outside berserk is not that high.
@@hamm8934 yeah, I played when it was live man... I raided as one of the top 2 horde side for many years, wotlk was legendary in my books. Druids are so overlooked
@@CornholersI did arena primarily (glad in season 7 and 8), but raided for gear and our MT was a feral that carried hard. We also had an unholy off tank quite often. This whole rewriting of history that DKs can only be blood is so misinformed. There are plenty of magic heavy fights in Wrath and Unholy is perfect for them, especially if you're running extra DPS in place of healers.
@@Cornholers you know there’s huge diminishing returns on avoidance in the final patch right? A tank becoming unhittable through avoidance isn’t a thing now
The only time I wanted to play Paly was during WotLK as Prot Paly was what I always envisioned a true Paladin to be (normally play 'Lock or Hunter). In D&D games, I loved being a Paladin but WoW always seemed to short-change them up until WotLK. Nice to see Classic giving me that warm & fuzzy again. p.s. as for 'Lock, D&D could definitely take notes from WoW.
I can see warriors being very popular for trash tanks in raids. Not the same thing as MT, but overall clear times are mostly about trash segments anyway, assuming you aren't wiping to bosses.
@@RonOnTheWay nah, pally + dk is still beast. 20 second death n decay and your g2g. That way your healers can sleep during trash pulls, they will need to actually heal warriors. Currently I do 7-9k DPS as a dk tank on most naxx trash pulls while my health bar literally doesn't dip below 85% at most. The mitigation, threat gen, DPS, and consistent self heals are just unrivaled in my opinion. That said all tanks are viable, their just tanks.
@@TheGoatLocker Doing easily 8k-9k DPS as Prot Warrior right now in trash pulls in Naxx25. And health bar barely moves. We're in the middle of the easiest raid ever.
For context on how good it was....it is still absolutely broken in retail, not nearly to that degree, but if you got gear, you don't really need a heal
I remember when Wrath first came out, you´d be damn near impossible to stop as a blood DK. Sure you´d take damage, but it took a small army to cut you down as you just kept getting hp back. Incredible times.
Just a few things, as a fellow pally MT myself There's really no reason to stack Paladin tanks. They offer almost no damage while tanking or offtanking, their offspec is bottom tier dps early on, and you generally don't need a tank with dual spec healer, you'd need a healer with dual spec dps. They're almost exclusively a MAIN TANK. Especially early on when having external defensive cooldowns from your offtank isn't as useful. On the other hand, DK can effectively offtank as frost when incoming damage isn't very high. The biggest deep blood mitigation talent is WOTN, which only works when you're under 35% HP. IF you're not consistently making use of this talent, there's really no reason to play deep blood. Just go frost. You'll still have an EHP cooldown which also increases damage and avoidance, -2% received damage from improved frost spec, and a lot more burst AOE threat and damage without having to switch specs between packs/bosses. You do sacrifice some self healing. This is almost exclusively an OFFTANK spec though. You're not maintanking hard-hitting 25 man bosses with this. DK is more stackable. Mostly just because they can easily transition from tank to a competent DPS. And a full DPS DK can fill a 3rd tank slot easily aswell, as long as they equip some tank gear. It's an incredibly versatile class.
Completely disagree about paladins being MT. Paladins are the best OT. Nobody really does good damage as OT (in tank spec/gear), but your prot paladin? He still brings cleanse, he still has BoP, freedom, aoe ranged taunt, can soak stuff with bubble, etc.
You remember that from Ulduar through icc paragon cleared everything with a main tank Feral and off tank blood dk, Feral out performs other tanks in the sense you aren't fighting plat wearers for plate gear
I'd say palis and warriors both have there pros and cons. In my raids I always have both, and make sure they have multiple gear sets available to them so there properly geared for progression fights
I played OG wrath and I've been keeping up with all the info coming up, but I still watch your videos just because I value your take on it and I love the way you present the info. Keep it going my guy 💪
From the perspective of having played a warrior in retail, WotLK made warrior tanking fun again. The new rotation and abundance of buttons to push to effectively manage threat with a party full of battle happy dps zergbots provided a welcome challenge. Looking forward to seeing how it plays out in classic, though right now I'm having tons of fun with blood knight. =)
Great content I main a prot pally and have a prot warrior for pvp and tbh I feel like prot pally is a better MT. The consistency of threat generation and upkeep is there between attunement and all the skills/ ways to generate threat warrior is decent too but having to generate rage to generate threat is annoying tho. If warriors had a baseline rage threshold like always having 35 rage or a bigger pool that depletes slower it'd be nice like 175 rage and a warrior talent that slows rage loss
@@booradley6832 with the way dps players act it's more of a baby sitting gig especially since new players with boosted characters run ahead and aggro mobs before I start a pull or grab more mobs die and then the healer has to go into overtime to make up for it lol
In the final tier I expect to see similar comps to what I see on private servers that are progressed, and typically RLs prefer a pally OT and a DK or a bear MT. Main reason pally goes OT rather than MT is their single target threat falls behind, though perhaps that's either a private server thing or last patch of the expansion thing. As for whether you want a bdk or a bear typically comes down to how the rest of the comp looks. With a bdk tank you typically want a cat dps, with a bear tank you typically want a fdk dps. Pally is GOAT OT and there's no comparison, since it carries so much utility that is incredibly useful to the raid when it's not actively tanking, which tends to be somewhat often. In the several casual LoD groups I've been in, the typical comp tends to be: DK MT / PAL OT 2FWAR 2CROG 2RPAL 1UDK 1CAT 2BOOM 2SPRI 2HUNT 2MAGE 1LOCK 1FLEX (lock/mage pref) 2HPAL 2RSHAM 1DISC
I mained feral in the original wrath and cleared all content competitively. Just remember, you’re the only tank who can go cat+dash and kite the boss for ages. (This is great on enrage mechanics, really useful in cata when you’re downing bosses without the gear)
@@glenpowell8374 From what I recall, Feral tanks get a massive upgrade in Cata with things like Thrash and Pulv and become one of the better options. Then in MoP they scale insanely well with Vengeance and unlimited self-heals using rage, though all tanks in MoP were OP (except monks). But in Wrath they're still very meh, basically still a WoW 1.0 tank build.
Deep frost doesn't really offer much outside of really good AoE, which is great for dungeons, but it brings nothing to the table for raids. The Blood spec doesn't even go to the end of the tree and ends up with about 30 points into frost anyways. Deep Frost absolutely can not compete with blood in difficult content.
@@justinvlaun unholy is amazing for comps with extra dps in place of healers because of the magic defense. Also there are plenty of raid fights where you need aoe threat and blood is not gunna get that done for you, while frost will. So many of these videos have completely rewritten history to say blood so the only viable dk spec when literally it’s a 5-10% difference in optimization between frost or unholy. Wrath is not a hard game and people are forgetting this.
take 2 prot warriors stack vigilance on each other flat out 3% damage reduction. On top of that every other prot warrior and other tanks for that sake where stacking stam after being defence caped... instead of more avoidance. There was this calculator back then (witch i have to find again) that showed diminishing returns so you could see what you needed more of dodge. parry and block. We ran the majority of our wotlk raids with 2 prot warrior and only 2 healers. (pala tank healer and a druid for raid healing) Long story short using 2 prot warrior is under rated just because of vigilance.
Works in theory but not in practice. Both of them need to take damage in order to generate rage. That's why you will never see a combo of Feral/Prot Warr in any serious comps. If private servers are any indication it will go something like this: Feral MT / Paladin OT or BDK MT / Warrior OT or any combo of those two. I don't know why Willie put BDK's in OT category when their AOE Threat is piss poor even with 20% damage Glyph on Death And Decay hell even combo with T10 2 Set + DND Glyph wont get you far.
Vigilance 3% doesn't stack with Blessing of Sanctuary's 3% mitigation, so just have a prot paladin buff your tank and they get a vigilance basically without the negatives.
Well, unless you already has a preestablished guild going into wrath, GL. I am full pre bis, quite good (or so I think), and I cannot get into a raiding guild to save my life. Even when applying to guilds forming, they just want prot pally MT with flex fills, especially since the speed runs that just took place in naxx25 a few days ago.
somthing worth noting, feral tank pulls most ST threat out of all tanks above bar none, problem is min/max guilds give the gear to rogues etc, there is just no point giving it to the feral tank. However if we by the means would give it to the feral, it would blast, the other tanks under the water in TPS and dps. the problem is just that gear is not going to the feral tank its just aint needed. that is the core issue, and as stated above their aoe threat is weak as hell. if they just did one small change like if swipe crits it applies a bleed on the targets it would be enough to put them on a respectable spot. they also got some revitalized talents, but its not even close to what others are getting.
They might pull most until DKs get the icy touch change. Not sure how these patches are gonna work but once they get that it's more than anything anyone can do. It's a 500% multiplier on top of everything, which is kinda insane that they did actually. You could literally go taunt, 2 x icy touch and just go afk with not even other tanks being able to pull off you unless taunting. Threat was irrelevant at that point, as you could also just spend all your death runes on 6 x icy touch and secure a threat lead right off the bat, and dps could go as hard as they'd like.
@@Hjortur95 before you reach an appreciable amount of AP, DR is marginally better than swipe for snap aoe threat. Once you have more AP and crit it rolls into swipes favour. Both should cause ‘additional threat’ imo however.
@@rottingcorpse6565 yeah he's called Caperfin, I met him during farming Scarlet Monastery on Thekal. Turns out he's a theorycrafter that also pumps as a melee Hunter. Honestly his Shaman tank was doing more DPS than everyone combined. Instant legend.
So I keep hearing that Blood DKs scale as good, or even better than Prot Paladin and eventually become an MT in certain fights in ICC, specifically Heroic Lich King. Is this just a rumor and it's Paladin all the way, or do Blood DKs do better in certain fights?
Also, none of this is known and set in stone information. What ppl are taking info from is private server experience, which we already know has a lot different tuning, both on the side of mobs/bosses and the classes themselves. That doesn't even take into account blizz possiblity making changes to gear/encounters. All in all, we will only know for sure when things go onto PTR and are play tested
Crap threat compared to other tanks is the problem. Yes, they are the easiest to keep alive though. The least desired tank, warriors, will be the supreme snap threat generators and with good expertise can completely dominate DPS/threat in most situations. Issue is, that isn't enough for most guilds to accept how squishy they are.
Main Tank = Dk/bear Off Tank = pally or if desperate, warrior. Warriors are the worse Tank but can do both jobs well, especially if geared. Warriors are especially gear dependent, needing expertise, hit, along with stacking armor and stamina.
@@someone-ji2zb That's cute. Even with lolmourne your talents gimp you too much - or are you just being a fury warrior who can "tank" dungeons? Feral can drop all gear into any substat with no penalty cause perma uncrittable. Learn your place. Beneath the furries.
Fun story: When I saw captain America throwing his shield to several targets I was like: Hey that’s the Paladin ability! And it is called Avengers Shield, just like the movie! And captain America is an avenger! Wtf is going on? I never read any comics so I don’t know if it is a coincidence, wow copied it from the comics or maybe the movies were influenced by the game? I suspect coincidence but I still find it awesome that Tank Paladins are basically Captain America. And Captain America is prot Paladin.
Bdk will be MT, due to surviveability (short and powerfull cd like ams and vampire blood) and ppala - OT, due to sacrifice-like abilities dedicated for MT. Sometimes handy pwar with buffed intervene (talents and glyph) can argue with pala, but it is rare exception. Around 80% of raids will be like Hdk (hybrid, it's not full Blood) + ppala.
In the Scottejaye interview Blizz said they will buff a class if nobody wants to play them. I see very few people playing bears, so I would bet bears are going to get some buffs. You heard it here first.
Except bears are already extremely good, so that makes no sense. Easy as balls to play and bring the best utility (also best for 3 drake sartharian as the MT by a landslide). What is there to even buff on them without making them the only choice worth a crap? Also, prot warriors are rare too... do they dare buff them despite all metas claiming not to take them?
I think not many people playing bears because pallys and warrior and dk are fun. I don’t think bears is that bad that blizz going to buff them. In the interview they are trying not to do any modifier to any class like they do in retail season. I wouldn’t expect any change to bear.
@@someone-ji2zb I agree that bears will be fine but what will put people off them is the AOE threat. No tank likes having to constantly manage threat like that, it's a real pain.
COVER UNHOLY AND FROST TANKS! Contrary to what many people are saying, both Unholy and Frost should be able to tank quite effectively all the way through ToC. Each spec has their strengths and weaknesses!
Hell, unholy is still great in some icc fights. The complete rewriting of wrath as only blood tanking is absolutely wild to me. I mained dk in wrath and was a frost tanking well into 3.3.5. I did 3 drakes as unholy. I really hope people play around with the other two specs because they’re super fun and great
I tanked Naxx -> ICC as Unholy originally. I get that Blood is "mathematically optimal", whatever that's worth, but I don't understand how that somehow translated to "The only possible spec"
@@hamm8934 I tanked frost damn near the entire expansion. I would say that the only people rewriting wrath as only blood tanking are these youtubers, but I searched today and couldn't find a frost or unholy tanking guide past 2010. All the current guides only cover blood for tanking. It's really weird. Good thing I have archived guides.
@@blackzackattacksgaming it’s so bizarre. From my memory too, blood tanking didn’t even become a thing until theory craft well into ICC. DKs entered ICC frost
Prot paladin really becomes the strongest tank in Cata, but definitely still has some critical issues in Wrath. A lot gets said about About Ardent Defender, but one thing to remember is that tank damage in Wrath is EXTREMELY spikey. So much so that, while unbuffed health from final raid to pre-raid in previous expansions nearly doubled over 10 levels, it nearly tripled over 5 levels from Wrath to Cata. This is because bosses were hitting so relatively hard that tank healers basically just blasted the tank until OOM and called for innervate. That makes Ardent Defender strong during progression before people are geared and while they are learning, and progressively less useful later. Even then, in most situations it will proc, you'll get melee'd again, then die. Basically, it's a nice to have for when a tank or healer screws up with a late cooldown or heal, but it is not something to be relied upon. If it goes off it's because someone screwed up. It's much better in Cata where it can be used to proactively mitigate a specific attack/mechanic. Mitigation is always better than recovery. Other issues with paladins are as mentioned a lack of unlinked cooldowns and personal defensives. You better know you're not going to need shield wall before you bubble off stacks on Festergut, for example.
@@NoOne-py5or Prot paladins could block cap in T11, and block was changed to a 40% damage reduction instead of using block value, so it was basically like having a physical shield wall up at all times, which eventually required mastery to be nerfed and then Holy Shield to be changed, and ultimately for the actual mechanic of blocking itself to be completely redesigned. WoG was added, made to scale with Vengeance, then given an absorb bubble on overheal. You could carry super hard for a bad healer. Divine Guardian was so powerful they had to nerf it, then give us the un-nerfed version as a tier set bonus. DKs were very close though. Both could solo tank Heroic Baleroc and Madness pretty comfortably, for example. I'd still give the paladin the edge in that expansion though, at least based on how much they had to correct through balance patches.
Arms prot is great in content where you take little damage while tanking somewhere between 2-5 mobs. So basically leveling and 5mans. It will be less good as fresh 80 as your avoidance stats will be low until later game gear and you cannot mix in damage gear to boost your damage. Ive seen an armsprot warr do great back in the day in a toc 10 man normal pug but thats it
UA Build is not really great for prot tanking since it's aoe threat is very capped. It can work in melee cleave groups or solo dungeons. But for general play deep prot wins.
Ye, I see people are spreading that terrible bad unrealistic blood build with imp icy talons. A Blood Tank will never use that. It privs you from getting 8% avoidance (5% dodge, 3% miss) AFTER diminish returns. You will never need the hast buff to the raid unless you're in a really bad comp or 10 man. In 25 man you'll have an enhancement shaman and they will bring imp Windfury totem so you don't have to gimp yourself. The odds of you having also a Frost DK dps in the raid is really high so, no need to gimp survivability which IS the core Ulduar and beyond (Sarth 3d and Malygos are also somehow threatening to a tank).
Honestly, I can't wait for all those 43/28/0 DK tanks to get absolutely shit on by Frost/Unholy tanks who actually played original wrath and know how to navigate this class in it's weirdest state
@@DankstaNug Agreed it's going to be laughable seeing these stam stacking blood tanks getting chunked while struggling to hold agro (early on) . Like 2008 all over again.
@@DankstaNug How to navigate this class in its wierdest state? This is 3.3.5 character, the nerfed stuff isn't around lol. Or are you refering to this iteration of DK compared to retail cause to me wotlk DK is normal and the new shit is wierd.
@@warlordtf9608 I mean, compared to 3.0 it's definitely toned down, lol. I was moreso referring to how the class became more regular and regimented as the expansions continued, and each spec settled into a definitive role.
You mention pvp in arena only but pvp has so much more . For years upon years all the high end pvp guilds / community's i have been in have just thought of pvp in terms of arena / wpvp and RBGS a distant last if at all . At start of Shadow Lands i joined a Epic BG community and have had the best time in game for me since Wrath days. There is so much more to all class's in Bgs and epic Bgs that a tank can do and is great in defending a flag till help arrives , running a flag ,tanking boss's and high end mobs in epics ( though this is more of a thing in classic AV than modern wow) . Not complain about the video itself but just letting some ppl know who may not raid that tanks can have more rolls out there and try it out in BGs , WPVP and Wintergrasp and have some fun
Guardian Spirit: "It's by no means a necessary addition for raids..." Argent Defender: "I don't know how this made it into the game..." GS: Cheat Death + 40% increased healing on target from all sources (3/1 min cooldown) AD: Cheat Death + budget Will of the Necropolis (2 min cooldown) Blood DK, Prot War, Feral Druid: Buffed self-regen healing and instantly safe from death mechanics
Argent Defender is 100% passive, though.. huge deal.. something completely unpredictable that you couldn't preplan & use a Guardian Spirit for, Argent Defender will save you from.
A gross oversimplification, AD is wildly more effective as a cheat death than GS in most situations. If you know your tank is going to die, there are many more ways to keep them alive than GS.
@@someone-ji2zb Fair enough, my statements are based on what you'll have teh easiest time doing. I've seen a shaman tank go thru wotlk so good! I like off meta picks.
SHAMAN TANK Early 4 star Scaling 2 star Complexity 5 STAR Stacking 1 star Utility 5 Star Pros High AOE DMG , more engaging, Buffs , Self healing and FUN Cons no on button taunt
But a paladin tank furnishes the raid with buffs, can reset boss stacks with their invuln and offer a LoH for a sindy fight, I'll take that over UNGA BUNGA any day,
It's funny because it's what people kept on telling me either on beta or pre-patch: "feral requires you to play too much", imagine complaining about that :D
I know WotLK just started, but is it too late to start? since apparently the servers were up for a month I felt like just starting fresh now on release is a dumb idea
Prot warr, from what ive seen on private servers, will be a much higher prio than most think. Do jot underestimate the importance of sunder. Sunder will cause every physical dps carry to deal 10-15% more damage, easily.
Fury stacks sunders and keeps them up. Especially endgame you'll have all of the fury warriors doing one or 2 sunders and then assign one of them to keep it up
I remember right back then blood at one point could solo raids 10 and heroics and seeing a blood dk in arena was a bitch in high rating because they could spec them to do damage and if you were melee you would be more fuck as I was a pally back then still was fun can't wait to see what the community does and releases
i am thinking about having a warri tank as 2nd char. it is really fun. it was a good idea to stop at 60 and then i waited til prepatch and leveled the last bit with wotlk talents etc
You are exactly correct. Raise ally would not resurrect someone but would make them a ghoul. The best part about it was for the longest time, if you were res'd via ghoul you couldn't be rebirthed cause your corpse did, yet didn't exist.
I can´t say how it´ll end up nearing the end of the expansion. But as a healer, I prefer warriors as tanks much over paladins. I think pala tanks are a tad overhyped tbh
I like how frost tank just gets glossed over in favor of blood. Frost was on par with blood og wrath until ICC when the dodge debuff kicked in. Better defensive CD's, better Aoe threat, best single target threat in the game with icy touch, which make it the better kiting tank as well. Blood has slightly more health and self healing, but you're going to get spammed heals as a tank anyway. Blood has hysteria, Frost has imp icy talons, I guess you can decide what's overall better for the raid . T7 4 piece bonus give you 21 seconds of icebound fortitude, glyphed makes it 40% damage reduction. 2% more damage reduction than blood, 3% more melee miss chance (5% as night elf). Also unbreakable armor, CD exclusive to frost. Frost is the better tank for magical encounters too with acclimation. Also, you can either two hand or dual wield tank frost (I prefer 2-hand). Not sure why people sleep on frost tanking.
I am new to Wrath... what astonished me most in the Prepatch is the INSANE amount of dmg all tanks (dunno about feral tank) can put out. More than most dps classes 😳
because you're adding wotlk talents into TBC stat distributions. But I be outdpsing dps since vanilla to shadowlands so nothing new, just an effort/skill issue.
You underestimate blood DK in pvp. People simply all played ez pz UH. But blood dk in combo with a physical DPS can be quiet the bomb. Blood DK can cast his frenzy on a party member and that buff is insane especially if combined with the healing debuff on attackers. Like Blood DK and rogue or Ret or warrior.. 20% more Physical damage is insane and for 30 seconds! Crit Mortal Strike, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm.. bäm. But you need a disc because the buff makes you lose health. Still tho.. blood already buffs AP and are. So any melee with good buff synergy in 3v3 can climb a lot of rating in a very fun way
I think you could have gone in to DK tanking a bit more. Yes Blood spec is the main tanking spec but there are times where a mostly Unholy spec tank works better, mostly in dungeons. I had to tank myself resently because of having a hard time finding one and I have never tanked before. I found it surprising easy and I mostly just played the same way I would if I were dps'ing. D&D is great aoe for mobs and Icy Touch for single target. Didn't have any problems keeping threat on anything. Just remember to put Frost Presence on!
The best part about warr being bis dung tank is facts spec into UA all the way down arms then down to improved rev and litterly charge in thuderclap sheild block spam rev/cleve as fast as humanly possible noone will come close to the dps u put out atm i out dps 4.7k Locks in dung pulls 3-5 mobs its absolutly the funnest thing ever i love it and then i use my OS/Duel spec for deep prot build bcus also some boses with adds in raids u can top dps chart as a tank by running UA ive not had any issues at all during P1 raids as Prot warr ive been healing the entire x pac n played prot pal when wotlk dropped so im just getting the warr into Ulduar ill tell u now tho prot pal vs prot war playstyle is also way funner I also made a bear and geared it to about 4k and jus stopped playin it even tho i mained a bear in tbc its just no fun anymore compared to war or even pally but everyone play style diff to each is own, But if u never tanked i reccomend doing what i did lvl war solo in dung from 14 to 80 was the funnest thing ever an good way to learn it in and out
how can you rate prot warrs below paladins in early game, when they are the most mobile tank in the entire expansion. their speed will be unmatched in naxx, and all the pros of prot pala means nothing when you don't get to use any of them cause you simply don't need to.
The cheat death mechanism is very powerful. It is basically freebie every few minutes. Everything else is better early for pror war, but tables have flipped. Warrior is the aggressive option that naturally has less cushion to fall onto. Whereas paladin is a bouncy castle.
Disregarding Ulduar 10 HMs and ICC hc (early in the patch) prot warriors are probably the most fun to play..not to mention they outdps every other tank (depends) on spec, they also out-threat prot paladins in ulduar and toc..they're also super strong in ulduar with their shockwave + interrupts at certain bosses not to mention the annoying trash. They got 2 silences, charge/intercept stuns/gapclosers with intervene, with shockwave + conclusive even 2 more stuns
It's hard to change community perspective once it's established. I know Paladins will be strong but all tank specs have something to bring to a raid in Wotlk and i hope the player base sees this too. Personally, Prot War all the way. No way i'm going to miss one of the most fun specs in Wotlk.
It's sad that the min/max meta has killed anyone's desire to recruit prot warriors for raids. I MT'd as a prot warrior for a lot of Vanilla Wrath. But all of these videos crapping on prot warriors will push prot warriors out of any raid spots. I'm honestly sad that I won't be returning to play Wrath Classic because of this - I don't have the time in adulthood to level up a different tanking class, and nobody will recruit us to raids, including GDKPs. :(
That's where you make a reputation for being a fucking sick tank. Or have a personality that makes you more inviting to a raid over so sweatlord dk. Don't cry then blame your class - cause it ain't your class - its probably YOU.
You say in the video that warriors have the best defensive cd in shield wall. Paladins also get a shield wall mechanic but with a lower cd so thats wrong?
@@lDanielHolm 10% with a longer cooldown is way worse. 50% will always be enuf to avoid any mechanic and the lesser cd will mean you can do that more often. the statements just wrong.
@@Ghost-fe1vp he means "best" as in most powerful... Thought it was pretty obvious, though I understand your point, I think you are wrong in the context of comparing classes like this; there are so many cooldowns so it would be hard to take into account CDs etc.
@@Ghost-fe1vp No. It's an emergency button, not something to be pressed on CD. You save it for when you need it, rather than when it's ready. Arguing that "50% is enough to avoid any mechanic" is just utter nonsense.
Druid tank with BiS gear ends up with so much Dodge that blizzard introduced both steeper Diminishing returns and a hard cap iirc. Both occured sunwell patch, outside of that patch they're a liability the raid has to baby due to innately taking more damage and the shitty threat.
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Bear aoe is about that tab targeting maul with glyph, while swiping, which is harder than most classes. However, most private server LoD raids feature a bear tank, and most server clears are done with a bear, simply because they don’t compete as much with plate gear, so you can gear two tanks at once, and because they get such a massive EHP
Private servers are dogshit. I came from warmane Lordaeron and I tell ya what, half the game was bugged to the point where the game is unrecognizable.
But they have less EHP than blood DK.. lol? Private servers meta got turned completely upside-down in wrath classic.
@@Fishbro L comment, plays on one of the worst known servers then compares it to every private server
@@Fishbro you was hated and despied on this server for your toxic attitude, no wonder you are in the other side of fence now.
@@wyattmackenzie4967 you could literally say that about any private servers. They all suck, and the meta is different because they are basically party mode servers. People just like them better because no bots, and less greed by company, plus it's free.
Bear Tank really does not need more than Swipe + Glyphed Maul
It is rare that I see mobs get away from me even when dps go full bore on aoe at the start of a pull. Combine that with Challenging Roar being 3 minute CD now and Faerie Fire being a great ranged snap aggro tool and Feral really doesn't have issues with threat.
EDIT: others have mentioned it but I will too
Imo the absolute biggest advantage to playing Feral Tank is that you aren't competing for plate drops with other tanks.
You missed the mark on frost DKs here pretty badly WillE, I expected you to not get brainwashed by Cata+ changes to DK tanking like everyone else who played retail all these years. 23/40/8 was the go to DK tank spec in 3.3.5 wotlk the first time around and it's still an amazing tank spec in classic wotlk that provides better mitigation and better threat than blood. Blood self healing might be good in dungeons but in raids it's almost inconsequential. In order to provide 20% melee haste blood spec also has to severely gimp it's self to the point you are almost useless for aoe tanking, not a good look for an off tank. You also list blood as the highest threat tank in the game "bar none", but frost DKs tanks way out threat blood.
Tanking specs for DKs are different than any other class and that makes them a bit confusing, but essentially the core tanking talent requires 23 points in blood and then 36 points in any of the 3 trees. None of the 51 point talents are ever taken for a tank specific spec.
Now THIS MAN played original wrath! Really as long as you grab the defensive cooldown and talents in any of the talent trees, they all should be able to tank perfectly well.
I ran that spec and I had a off tanking spec where I did take 51 points in frost for howling blast. I could not imagine off tanking or aoe tanking without howling blast.
@@JustChristianBlack While having Howling Blast and the 15% extra damage are nice to have, HB is still a worse spend than DnD for AoE threat unless you have a KM proc. However if you were to run the HB glyph you could combine the two at the same time. It's certainly workable, and I've been tanking 51 frost all prepatch myself, but giving up 3% stam and 20% HP self heal is a lot to give up.
@@slappyosis I'm talking about a spec i played in OG wrath @ lvl 80 for off tanking, not this pre-patch. I wouldn't even think about taking 51 point in frost during pre patch, there are not enough points going into unholy or blood, but you still did it?😅😅😅😅 Did you go dual wield too?
The self healing is rated too high when you're getting healed as a tank anyway. Frost tanks take less damage then blood tanks.
Brings me back I was dk MT. I remember ot with frost for the long range aoe. Also tank in unholy in trial of crusade just for fun.
One addition I'd like to make as an "old" feral tank, by the time Icecrown hits with one or two "heroic" items (looking at you airship chest) a reasonably well geared feral tank, will just not die and while aggro is still a thing to watch, with crazy hp numbers just is so much easier to handle for the healers in clutch situations.
Warriors are gonna be great for Heroic+ dungeons, I might roll one eventually ( planning on skipping the launch and playing around when ToC or Ulduar launches )
I've been tanking with warrior for 6 years on private server now. Very hapy about Heroic+ dungeons because warrior is really good & fun in dungeons. Unfortunately it wont be very likely to get to raids with warrior as a MT.
Stacking the same tank especially in 10man but also in 25man is a huge wearied champ for me, like I know you wanna ride the "Paladin are the best Heal/Tank in Wotlk" Hype train, but stacking any healer/Tank class is a desperate "We need to fill the role with anything we are 20 min past raidstart" move.
Really The differentiating factor between the two tiers of tanks (DK/Paladin and Druid/Warrior) is based around a function in two talents that sadly only Protection Paladins and Blood Death Knights have. Protection Paladins have access to the Ardent Defender talent which reduces damage at or below 35% health by 20% and Death knights have access to Will of Necropolis which does same but just by 15%. Apart from the usefulness of that talent especially when clearing progression raid content, most tanks trade blows in terms of survivability and are pretty balanced. Threat tends to rely mostly on raid composure, proper cool downs usage and just knowing your class I would never recommend anyone play a tank based on threat generation.
Still I'll be maining Warrior regardless of performance compared to Paladin and Death Knights.
These talents are way too overrated. They are only useful when u are that low. So mybe 10% of all fights
@@Dualities That's the most important time my friend.
@@jetplane833 warrior thunder clap (-20% enemy attack speed) + boomkin hurricane (-20% enemy attack speed) and u will never get that low. Only wekness warr has is magical dmg burst
Will of the Necropolis isn't really a major strength of Blood. It's not even in the same galaxy compared to Argent Defender, which actually negates a killing blow and heals you back up to 30% (on top of having a 33% stronger passive effect).
Blood is strong because of its cooldowns, self-healing, scaling and flexibility. It's the tank that's most likely to survive a long fight with some healers down. Has more defensive cooldowns than bear and warr combined. Best sustained magical damage mitigation of all tanks thanks to AMS and parry reducing spell damage. High avoidance doesn't grief threat generation unlike other tanks.
@@Dualities I hear this a lot actually. All 4 tanks have the attack speed slow; Thunderclap, Icy Touch, Judgement of the Just and Infected wounds so this is a baseline trait of all tanks. Another factor is that even dps death knights will apply this with Icy Touch which should always be up anyways.
Just to clarify, ferals also use bear form for utility in PvP.
Bash is a 30s CD, 5s physical stun and bear charge is 15s CD ranged interrupt and physical root.
A good feral druid must know when to use bash (or maim) to support kills, as your burst outside berserk is not that high.
Bears past ulduar are unhittable, this dude doing this doesn't understand the crazy scaling they get for dodge,armor, etc there sick
@@Cornholers this video is so misinformed
@@hamm8934 yeah, I played when it was live man... I raided as one of the top 2 horde side for many years, wotlk was legendary in my books. Druids are so overlooked
@@CornholersI did arena primarily (glad in season 7 and 8), but raided for gear and our MT was a feral that carried hard.
We also had an unholy off tank quite often. This whole rewriting of history that DKs can only be blood is so misinformed. There are plenty of magic heavy fights in Wrath and Unholy is perfect for them, especially if you're running extra DPS in place of healers.
@@Cornholers you know there’s huge diminishing returns on avoidance in the final patch right? A tank becoming unhittable through avoidance isn’t a thing now
The only time I wanted to play Paly was during WotLK as Prot Paly was what I always envisioned a true Paladin to be (normally play 'Lock or Hunter).
In D&D games, I loved being a Paladin but WoW always seemed to short-change them up until WotLK. Nice to see Classic giving me that warm & fuzzy again.
p.s. as for 'Lock, D&D could definitely take notes from WoW.
I think MT warriors are going to be very common with the mobility of the class. Movement has always been meta as far as pushing faster clear times.
I can see warriors being very popular for trash tanks in raids. Not the same thing as MT, but overall clear times are mostly about trash segments anyway, assuming you aren't wiping to bosses.
@@failgun probably dual spec fury warrior switching to prot would make sense for faster trash clears.
Warriors ftw tbh
@@RonOnTheWay nah, pally + dk is still beast. 20 second death n decay and your g2g. That way your healers can sleep during trash pulls, they will need to actually heal warriors. Currently I do 7-9k DPS as a dk tank on most naxx trash pulls while my health bar literally doesn't dip below 85% at most. The mitigation, threat gen, DPS, and consistent self heals are just unrivaled in my opinion. That said all tanks are viable, their just tanks.
@@TheGoatLocker Doing easily 8k-9k DPS as Prot Warrior right now in trash pulls in Naxx25. And health bar barely moves. We're in the middle of the easiest raid ever.
Always happy with this content. I appreciate the time you put in to making this content. Ty sir
Naive. That just bring him a lot of youtube money. Most of wotlk content creators are content creators first not gamers
@@Dualities God your salt is so good.
DKs self healing was so absurdly good that at the end of expansion it is possible to be powerful enough to kill Sartharion 0D 10-man... solo.
It got nerfed from a 50% heal to ~10% around ulduar release if not a bit earlier.
For context on how good it was....it is still absolutely broken in retail, not nearly to that degree, but if you got gear, you don't really need a heal
Its broken in prepatch. I solo'd 3 bosses in kara lol
@@Moonz97 That’s absolutely nuts
Didn’t a blood DK solo 10-man Lich King or am I misremembering that?
I remember when Wrath first came out, you´d be damn near impossible to stop as a blood DK. Sure you´d take damage, but it took a small army to cut you down as you just kept getting hp back. Incredible times.
Just a few things, as a fellow pally MT myself
There's really no reason to stack Paladin tanks. They offer almost no damage while tanking or offtanking, their offspec is bottom tier dps early on, and you generally don't need a tank with dual spec healer, you'd need a healer with dual spec dps. They're almost exclusively a MAIN TANK. Especially early on when having external defensive cooldowns from your offtank isn't as useful.
On the other hand, DK can effectively offtank as frost when incoming damage isn't very high. The biggest deep blood mitigation talent is WOTN, which only works when you're under 35% HP.
IF you're not consistently making use of this talent, there's really no reason to play deep blood. Just go frost. You'll still have an EHP cooldown which also increases damage and avoidance, -2% received damage from improved frost spec, and a lot more burst AOE threat and damage without having to switch specs between packs/bosses. You do sacrifice some self healing. This is almost exclusively an OFFTANK spec though. You're not maintanking hard-hitting 25 man bosses with this.
DK is more stackable. Mostly just because they can easily transition from tank to a competent DPS. And a full DPS DK can fill a 3rd tank slot easily aswell, as long as they equip some tank gear. It's an incredibly versatile class.
Completely disagree about paladins being MT. Paladins are the best OT. Nobody really does good damage as OT (in tank spec/gear), but your prot paladin? He still brings cleanse, he still has BoP, freedom, aoe ranged taunt, can soak stuff with bubble, etc.
You remember that from Ulduar through icc paragon cleared everything with a main tank Feral and off tank blood dk, Feral out performs other tanks in the sense you aren't fighting plat wearers for plate gear
Ferals become unhittable post ulduar. This video has so much misinformation
Mh
And that’s exactly why I’m maining one. Faster Prog.
I'd say palis and warriors both have there pros and cons. In my raids I always have both, and make sure they have multiple gear sets available to them so there properly geared for progression fights
No one tanked as blood in original wrath. Frost tanks were most common.
Surprised you didn’t mention the rework of divine protection which is a nice tank cool-down!
I played OG wrath and I've been keeping up with all the info coming up, but I still watch your videos just because I value your take on it and I love the way you present the info. Keep it going my guy 💪
same!
From the perspective of having played a warrior in retail, WotLK made warrior tanking fun again. The new rotation and abundance of buttons to push to effectively manage threat with a party full of battle happy dps zergbots provided a welcome challenge. Looking forward to seeing how it plays out in classic, though right now I'm having tons of fun with blood knight. =)
And u cant forget about UA Rev spec out dps any dps class by miles in dung i fkn love it pull off up ward to 10k dps sometimes in 3-6mob pulls
Great content I main a prot pally and have a prot warrior for pvp and tbh I feel like prot pally is a better MT. The consistency of threat generation and upkeep is there between attunement and all the skills/ ways to generate threat warrior is decent too but having to generate rage to generate threat is annoying tho. If warriors had a baseline rage threshold like always having 35 rage or a bigger pool that depletes slower it'd be nice like 175 rage and a warrior talent that slows rage loss
....so you play two classes that dont actually play the game. Well im glad someone like you does it so the rest of us dont have to.
@@booradley6832 with the way dps players act it's more of a baby sitting gig especially since new players with boosted characters run ahead and aggro mobs before I start a pull or grab more mobs die and then the healer has to go into overtime to make up for it lol
Seems like having a dual spec prot/holy pally will ensure you are popular... if you know how to play them...
In the final tier I expect to see similar comps to what I see on private servers that are progressed, and typically RLs prefer a pally OT and a DK or a bear MT. Main reason pally goes OT rather than MT is their single target threat falls behind, though perhaps that's either a private server thing or last patch of the expansion thing. As for whether you want a bdk or a bear typically comes down to how the rest of the comp looks. With a bdk tank you typically want a cat dps, with a bear tank you typically want a fdk dps. Pally is GOAT OT and there's no comparison, since it carries so much utility that is incredibly useful to the raid when it's not actively tanking, which tends to be somewhat often.
In the several casual LoD groups I've been in, the typical comp tends to be:
DK MT / PAL OT
2FWAR 2CROG 2RPAL 1UDK 1CAT
2BOOM 2SPRI 2HUNT 2MAGE 1LOCK 1FLEX (lock/mage pref)
2HPAL 2RSHAM 1DISC
I think druids gonna be great in fights with a lot of physical damage
I mained feral in the original wrath and cleared all content competitively. Just remember, you’re the only tank who can go cat+dash and kite the boss for ages. (This is great on enrage mechanics, really useful in cata when you’re downing bosses without the gear)
@@glenpowell8374 From what I recall, Feral tanks get a massive upgrade in Cata with things like Thrash and Pulv and become one of the better options. Then in MoP they scale insanely well with Vengeance and unlimited self-heals using rage, though all tanks in MoP were OP (except monks). But in Wrath they're still very meh, basically still a WoW 1.0 tank build.
My fav tank to heal was always bear ...... nice big meat health bar and nice and consistent dmg.... always felt good to heal them.
man, I was tanking as pally since vanilla classic. I deserved this!
Did you forget about maul hitting multiple targets due to the glyph?
But still, Feral tank needs a good player to do The job of a regular pally. As one I say I Love this part of having to perform better to do The raids.
That's more of a leveling and dungeon QoL thing than a total tanking buff. Bear tanks often switch glyph of maul out when doing raids.
@@Jonsse some do, some not. Its all about raid comp
I think warrior tanks will be the great surprise of wrath
Well here we are, and despite prot warriors being monsters in DPS/threat, no guilds want them xD
actually its 5 as Frost is a great tank spec as well
Deep frost doesn't really offer much outside of really good AoE, which is great for dungeons, but it brings nothing to the table for raids. The Blood spec doesn't even go to the end of the tree and ends up with about 30 points into frost anyways. Deep Frost absolutely can not compete with blood in difficult content.
@@justinvlaun unholy is amazing for comps with extra dps in place of healers because of the magic defense. Also there are plenty of raid fights where you need aoe threat and blood is not gunna get that done for you, while frost will.
So many of these videos have completely rewritten history to say blood so the only viable dk spec when literally it’s a 5-10% difference in optimization between frost or unholy. Wrath is not a hard game and people are forgetting this.
@@justinvlaun had no issues tanking algalon as deepfrost in naxx25 gear
thx for the brief my bruvski!
take 2 prot warriors stack vigilance on each other flat out 3% damage reduction. On top of that every other prot warrior and other tanks for that sake where stacking stam after being defence caped... instead of more avoidance. There was this calculator back then (witch i have to find again) that showed diminishing returns so you could see what you needed more of dodge. parry and block. We ran the majority of our wotlk raids with 2 prot warrior and only 2 healers. (pala tank healer and a druid for raid healing)
Long story short using 2 prot warrior is under rated just because of vigilance.
Or he could just put the 3% dmg reduction buff on a paladin that will be more useful than he ever will.
Works in theory but not in practice. Both of them need to take damage in order to generate rage. That's why you will never see a combo of Feral/Prot Warr in any serious comps.
If private servers are any indication it will go something like this: Feral MT / Paladin OT or BDK MT / Warrior OT or any combo of those two. I don't know why Willie put BDK's in OT category when their AOE Threat is piss poor even with 20% damage Glyph on Death And Decay hell even combo with T10 2 Set + DND Glyph wont get you far.
@@TheDawnCrusader See you get it. Also Stacking Vigilance like that is moronic, but back in 2010 people didn't know better.
Vigilance 3% doesn't stack with Blessing of Sanctuary's 3% mitigation, so just have a prot paladin buff your tank and they get a vigilance basically without the negatives.
Take info with a pound of salt!
Having cleared Wrath originally on a prot warr, I'm not worried about raid tanking issues arising at all.
If they are even close to wrath retail, I'm right there with you, buddy. 👍🏼
Well, unless you already has a preestablished guild going into wrath, GL. I am full pre bis, quite good (or so I think), and I cannot get into a raiding guild to save my life. Even when applying to guilds forming, they just want prot pally MT with flex fills, especially since the speed runs that just took place in naxx25 a few days ago.
somthing worth noting, feral tank pulls most ST threat out of all tanks above bar none, problem is min/max guilds give the gear to rogues etc, there is just no point giving it to the feral tank.
However if we by the means would give it to the feral, it would blast, the other tanks under the water in TPS and dps. the problem is just that gear is not going to the feral tank its just aint needed.
that is the core issue, and as stated above their aoe threat is weak as hell. if they just did one small change like if swipe crits it applies a bleed on the targets it would be enough to put them on a respectable spot.
they also got some revitalized talents, but its not even close to what others are getting.
demoralizing roar should be changed to do a crazy amount of threat. bear threat on aoe is even worse in retail
They might pull most until DKs get the icy touch change. Not sure how these patches are gonna work but once they get that it's more than anything anyone can do. It's a 500% multiplier on top of everything, which is kinda insane that they did actually. You could literally go taunt, 2 x icy touch and just go afk with not even other tanks being able to pull off you unless taunting. Threat was irrelevant at that point, as you could also just spend all your death runes on 6 x icy touch and secure a threat lead right off the bat, and dps could go as hard as they'd like.
@@Hjortur95 before you reach an appreciable amount of AP, DR is marginally better than swipe for snap aoe threat. Once you have more AP and crit it rolls into swipes favour. Both should cause ‘additional threat’ imo however.
"TANKS In Wrath Classic - In Brief..."
Thumbnail excludes Prot Warrior. This will be spicy
Obviously you're wrong here, there are 5. Caperfin pulls off Shaman tanking. I met him on my leveling experience on Thekal.
lol wow an actual shaman tank guy out in the wild!
Yeah. I've seen Shaman tank solotank lord Marrowgar. But yaknow, people be haters.
@@rottingcorpse6565 yeah he's called Caperfin, I met him during farming Scarlet Monastery on Thekal. Turns out he's a theorycrafter that also pumps as a melee Hunter. Honestly his Shaman tank was doing more DPS than everyone combined. Instant legend.
Love the content WillE! keepem comin man!
BoS, Devine plea, and the talent that refreshes Devine plea on melee means infinate mana every single pull.
So I keep hearing that Blood DKs scale as good, or even better than Prot Paladin and eventually become an MT in certain fights in ICC, specifically Heroic Lich King. Is this just a rumor and it's Paladin all the way, or do Blood DKs do better in certain fights?
Bdk is nuts on HC lich king because they can just AMS soul reaper which is the major tank mechanic
Blood is the best scaling spec in the game, they start to main tank after ulduar half bis
Each class will do better in certain fights. Don't concern yourself with what's main meta tank, you're fine w/ any
Also, none of this is known and set in stone information. What ppl are taking info from is private server experience, which we already know has a lot different tuning, both on the side of mobs/bosses and the classes themselves. That doesn't even take into account blizz possiblity making changes to gear/encounters. All in all, we will only know for sure when things go onto PTR and are play tested
Crap threat compared to other tanks is the problem. Yes, they are the easiest to keep alive though.
The least desired tank, warriors, will be the supreme snap threat generators and with good expertise can completely dominate DPS/threat in most situations. Issue is, that isn't enough for most guilds to accept how squishy they are.
Main Tank = Dk/bear
Off Tank = pally or if desperate, warrior.
Warriors are the worse Tank but can do both jobs well, especially if geared. Warriors are especially gear dependent, needing expertise, hit, along with stacking armor and stamina.
Just play what you like. I personally like warrior tank.
I BEEN WAITIN
I played both prot war and prot pally this time around I'm sticking to war.
Warr is overall going to be a monster; I am not sure how people have forgotten how much damage they were capable dishing out compared to other tanks.
@@someone-ji2zb That's cute. Even with lolmourne your talents gimp you too much - or are you just being a fury warrior who can "tank" dungeons? Feral can drop all gear into any substat with no penalty cause perma uncrittable. Learn your place. Beneath the furries.
Where frost DK
Gonna be maining prot pally and hunter in Wrath. So hyped!
Fun story: When I saw captain America throwing his shield to several targets I was like: Hey that’s the Paladin ability! And it is called Avengers Shield, just like the movie! And captain America is an avenger! Wtf is going on?
I never read any comics so I don’t know if it is a coincidence, wow copied it from the comics or maybe the movies were influenced by the game? I suspect coincidence but I still find it awesome that Tank Paladins are basically Captain America. And Captain America is prot Paladin.
At least swipe doesnt have a mob cap anymore
He really should have mentioned this, like with thunderclap.
He also doesn’t mention that Demoralizing Roar is actually better aoe threat per GCD until AP breakpoints can be reached.
Bdk will be MT, due to surviveability (short and powerfull cd like ams and vampire blood) and ppala - OT, due to sacrifice-like abilities dedicated for MT. Sometimes handy pwar with buffed intervene (talents and glyph) can argue with pala, but it is rare exception. Around 80% of raids will be like Hdk (hybrid, it's not full Blood) + ppala.
In the Scottejaye interview Blizz said they will buff a class if nobody wants to play them. I see very few people playing bears, so I would bet bears are going to get some buffs. You heard it here first.
Except bears are already extremely good, so that makes no sense. Easy as balls to play and bring the best utility (also best for 3 drake sartharian as the MT by a landslide). What is there to even buff on them without making them the only choice worth a crap?
Also, prot warriors are rare too... do they dare buff them despite all metas claiming not to take them?
@@someone-ji2zb unholy is also great for 3 drakes
I think not many people playing bears because pallys and warrior and dk are fun. I don’t think bears is that bad that blizz going to buff them.
In the interview they are trying not to do any modifier to any class like they do in retail season. I wouldn’t expect any change to bear.
@@someone-ji2zb I agree that bears will be fine but what will put people off them is the AOE threat. No tank likes having to constantly manage threat like that, it's a real pain.
thank i will be playing frost dk tank.. not mentioned here. also unholy for heavys magic based fights. blood just begin to shine in icc i think...
hysteria is always a thing. bdk combines two important raid boosts in build, unlike others
Brezz is one of the strongest spells in raid enviroment only druid provide it.
Forever a Druid idc how weak or strong they are ❤️
I'm with you
COVER UNHOLY AND FROST TANKS! Contrary to what many people are saying, both Unholy and Frost should be able to tank quite effectively all the way through ToC. Each spec has their strengths and weaknesses!
Exactly, I tanked as a frost DK during most of wrath
Hell, unholy is still great in some icc fights. The complete rewriting of wrath as only blood tanking is absolutely wild to me. I mained dk in wrath and was a frost tanking well into 3.3.5. I did 3 drakes as unholy.
I really hope people play around with the other two specs because they’re super fun and great
I tanked Naxx -> ICC as Unholy originally. I get that Blood is "mathematically optimal", whatever that's worth, but I don't understand how that somehow translated to "The only possible spec"
@@hamm8934 I tanked frost damn near the entire expansion. I would say that the only people rewriting wrath as only blood tanking are these youtubers, but I searched today and couldn't find a frost or unholy tanking guide past 2010. All the current guides only cover blood for tanking. It's really weird. Good thing I have archived guides.
@@blackzackattacksgaming it’s so bizarre. From my memory too, blood tanking didn’t even become a thing until theory craft well into ICC. DKs entered ICC frost
Prot paladin really becomes the strongest tank in Cata, but definitely still has some critical issues in Wrath. A lot gets said about About Ardent Defender, but one thing to remember is that tank damage in Wrath is EXTREMELY spikey. So much so that, while unbuffed health from final raid to pre-raid in previous expansions nearly doubled over 10 levels, it nearly tripled over 5 levels from Wrath to Cata. This is because bosses were hitting so relatively hard that tank healers basically just blasted the tank until OOM and called for innervate. That makes Ardent Defender strong during progression before people are geared and while they are learning, and progressively less useful later. Even then, in most situations it will proc, you'll get melee'd again, then die. Basically, it's a nice to have for when a tank or healer screws up with a late cooldown or heal, but it is not something to be relied upon. If it goes off it's because someone screwed up. It's much better in Cata where it can be used to proactively mitigate a specific attack/mechanic. Mitigation is always better than recovery. Other issues with paladins are as mentioned a lack of unlinked cooldowns and personal defensives. You better know you're not going to need shield wall before you bubble off stacks on Festergut, for example.
Idk DK gets super strong with their self healing in cata, mastery makes it a stack absorbing shield
@@NoOne-py5or Prot paladins could block cap in T11, and block was changed to a 40% damage reduction instead of using block value, so it was basically like having a physical shield wall up at all times, which eventually required mastery to be nerfed and then Holy Shield to be changed, and ultimately for the actual mechanic of blocking itself to be completely redesigned. WoG was added, made to scale with Vengeance, then given an absorb bubble on overheal. You could carry super hard for a bad healer. Divine Guardian was so powerful they had to nerf it, then give us the un-nerfed version as a tier set bonus. DKs were very close though. Both could solo tank Heroic Baleroc and Madness pretty comfortably, for example. I'd still give the paladin the edge in that expansion though, at least based on how much they had to correct through balance patches.
@@Gaming_Groove private server meta heavilly heavilly favors blood dk. spec is absolutely busted in cata.
Hey WillE for the prot warrior, is it better to go the arms/prot build or to go full prot tree if I want to tank as a prot warrior?
Arms prot is great in content where you take little damage while tanking somewhere between 2-5 mobs. So basically leveling and 5mans. It will be less good as fresh 80 as your avoidance stats will be low until later game gear and you cannot mix in damage gear to boost your damage. Ive seen an armsprot warr do great back in the day in a toc 10 man normal pug but thats it
UA Build is not really great for prot tanking since it's aoe threat is very capped. It can work in melee cleave groups or solo dungeons. But for general play deep prot wins.
Blood is MT and Pally is OT btw
Ye, I see people are spreading that terrible bad unrealistic blood build with imp icy talons. A Blood Tank will never use that. It privs you from getting 8% avoidance (5% dodge, 3% miss) AFTER diminish returns. You will never need the hast buff to the raid unless you're in a really bad comp or 10 man. In 25 man you'll have an enhancement shaman and they will bring imp Windfury totem so you don't have to gimp yourself. The odds of you having also a Frost DK dps in the raid is really high so, no need to gimp survivability which IS the core Ulduar and beyond (Sarth 3d and Malygos are also somehow threatening to a tank).
Yup.
Honestly, I can't wait for all those 43/28/0 DK tanks to get absolutely shit on by Frost/Unholy tanks who actually played original wrath and know how to navigate this class in it's weirdest state
@@DankstaNug Agreed it's going to be laughable seeing these stam stacking blood tanks getting chunked while struggling to hold agro (early on) . Like 2008 all over again.
@@DankstaNug How to navigate this class in its wierdest state? This is 3.3.5 character, the nerfed stuff isn't around lol. Or are you refering to this iteration of DK compared to retail cause to me wotlk DK is normal and the new shit is wierd.
@@warlordtf9608 I mean, compared to 3.0 it's definitely toned down, lol. I was moreso referring to how the class became more regular and regimented as the expansions continued, and each spec settled into a definitive role.
I'm a little new to the game, but I liked 2 tanks, I wanted to see your opinion, which would be a little better, warrior or druid tank
You mention pvp in arena only but pvp has so much more . For years upon years all the high end pvp guilds / community's i have been in have just thought of pvp in terms of arena / wpvp and RBGS a distant last if at all . At start of Shadow Lands i joined a Epic BG community and have had the best time in game for me since Wrath days. There is so much more to all class's in Bgs and epic Bgs that a tank can do and is great in defending a flag till help arrives , running a flag ,tanking boss's and high end mobs in epics ( though this is more of a thing in classic AV than modern wow) .
Not complain about the video itself but just letting some ppl know who may not raid that tanks can have more rolls out there and try it out in BGs , WPVP and Wintergrasp and have some fun
Guardian Spirit: "It's by no means a necessary addition for raids..."
Argent Defender: "I don't know how this made it into the game..."
GS: Cheat Death + 40% increased healing on target from all sources (3/1 min cooldown)
AD: Cheat Death + budget Will of the Necropolis (2 min cooldown)
Blood DK, Prot War, Feral Druid: Buffed self-regen healing and instantly safe from death mechanics
Argent Defender is 100% passive, though.. huge deal.. something completely unpredictable that you couldn't preplan & use a Guardian Spirit for, Argent Defender will save you from.
@@H41030v3rki110ny0u this is wrath. Nothing is unplanned or unexpected lol
@@hamm8934 That's what everyone's been saying, yet the Unholy Morb spec was discovered in wotlk classic beta
A gross oversimplification, AD is wildly more effective as a cheat death than GS in most situations.
If you know your tank is going to die, there are many more ways to keep them alive than GS.
@@TheNewLooter that’s existed on private servers since at least 2014 when I was on arena tournament
You know you can tank in the other two DK specs right?
UH Tanking is literally trolling, frost tanking is mathematically superior to blood and yet DKS lust over the spec, what can i say?
@@warlordtf9608 We are using an unholy tank for our raid, and while it isn't the best thing ever, it isn't bad.
@@someone-ji2zb Fair enough, my statements are based on what you'll have teh easiest time doing. I've seen a shaman tank go thru wotlk so good! I like off meta picks.
Does Avenger's Shield really have the silence in wrath? Tooltip merely states "dazes".
A follow up talent provides the silence afaik
also theres a Frost DK tank an Unholy DK Tank :P ~ but at the end. the bear is above all :D /dance :D
SHAMAN TANK
Early 4 star
Scaling 2 star
Complexity 5 STAR
Stacking 1 star
Utility 5 Star
Pros
High AOE DMG , more engaging, Buffs , Self healing and FUN
Cons
no on button taunt
lolllllll
A high skilled prot warrior will perform way better than like 80% of all the average paladin tanks
People never think about skill though, they care 100% about class and gear when they put together a raid.
But a paladin tank furnishes the raid with buffs, can reset boss stacks with their invuln and offer a LoH for a sindy fight, I'll take that over UNGA BUNGA any day,
It's funny because it's what people kept on telling me either on beta or pre-patch: "feral requires you to play too much", imagine complaining about that :D
Paladin is the best healer snd the best tank in wotlk. I love it
Crying in bear tank
Don't cry - You're the best tank in the long haul just get farming ARENAS cause BIS legs and weap are PVP cuz resiliance is stats.
Prot Warrior 4 life
dude blood dk is a one man party, you should make him an own clip
I know WotLK just started, but is it too late to start? since apparently the servers were up for a month I felt like just starting fresh now on release is a dumb idea
Prot warr, from what ive seen on private servers, will be a much higher prio than most think. Do jot underestimate the importance of sunder. Sunder will cause every physical dps carry to deal 10-15% more damage, easily.
fury warriors can easly do exactly the same thing. prot does not contribute almost anything to the raid sadly
Fury stacks sunders and keeps them up. Especially endgame you'll have all of the fury warriors doing one or 2 sunders and then assign one of them to keep it up
You forgot the overgeared moonkin dungeon tank :D
I remember right back then blood at one point could solo raids 10 and heroics and seeing a blood dk in arena was a bitch in high rating because they could spec them to do damage and if you were melee you would be more fuck as I was a pally back then still was fun can't wait to see what the community does and releases
nice vid dude
Glyph of Maul adds slight cleave btw
i am thinking about having a warri tank as 2nd char. it is really fun. it was a good idea to stop at 60 and then i waited til prepatch and leveled the last bit with wotlk talents etc
In regards to blood DKs you said unholy frenzy is used on "one of your physical DPS" when you meant to say "on one of your fury warriors".
*Feral druids.
*yourself
Does dk have brez? Cos i think its its original raise ally which u summon ur ally as a ghoul
You are exactly correct. Raise ally would not resurrect someone but would make them a ghoul. The best part about it was for the longest time, if you were res'd via ghoul you couldn't be rebirthed cause your corpse did, yet didn't exist.
I can´t say how it´ll end up nearing the end of the expansion. But as a healer, I prefer warriors as tanks much over paladins. I think pala tanks are a tad overhyped tbh
I like how frost tank just gets glossed over in favor of blood. Frost was on par with blood og wrath until ICC when the dodge debuff kicked in. Better defensive CD's, better Aoe threat, best single target threat in the game with icy touch, which make it the better kiting tank as well. Blood has slightly more health and self healing, but you're going to get spammed heals as a tank anyway. Blood has hysteria, Frost has imp icy talons, I guess you can decide what's overall better for the raid . T7 4 piece bonus give you 21 seconds of icebound fortitude, glyphed makes it 40% damage reduction. 2% more damage reduction than blood, 3% more melee miss chance (5% as night elf). Also unbreakable armor, CD exclusive to frost. Frost is the better tank for magical encounters too with acclimation. Also, you can either two hand or dual wield tank frost (I prefer 2-hand). Not sure why people sleep on frost tanking.
I am new to Wrath... what astonished me most in the Prepatch is the INSANE amount of dmg all tanks (dunno about feral tank) can put out. More than most dps classes 😳
They have Good AoE, maybe thats why you see them doing sick dps
My revenge's are criting for almost 5k...with sweeping strikes and a 38/8/16 build it is fantastic at smashing stuff!
because you're adding wotlk talents into TBC stat distributions. But I be outdpsing dps since vanilla to shadowlands so nothing new, just an effort/skill issue.
@@warlordtf9608 dps in pve is most definitely NOT skill issue 😂 effort yes, but not skill
You underestimate blood DK in pvp. People simply all played ez pz UH. But blood dk in combo with a physical DPS can be quiet the bomb. Blood DK can cast his frenzy on a party member and that buff is insane especially if combined with the healing debuff on attackers. Like Blood DK and rogue or Ret or warrior.. 20% more
Physical damage is insane and for 30 seconds! Crit Mortal Strike, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm.. bäm. But you need a disc because the buff makes you lose health. Still tho.. blood already buffs AP and are. So any melee with good buff synergy in 3v3 can climb a lot of rating in a very fun way
You didn’t cover shaman tank. 😢
Man if you think prot warriors have better aoe threat than prot pally in wrath you're crazy
I think you could have gone in to DK tanking a bit more. Yes Blood spec is the main tanking spec but there are times where a mostly Unholy spec tank works better, mostly in dungeons. I had to tank myself resently because of having a hard time finding one and I have never tanked before. I found it surprising easy and I mostly just played the same way I would if I were dps'ing. D&D is great aoe for mobs and Icy Touch for single target. Didn't have any problems keeping threat on anything. Just remember to put Frost Presence on!
Were feral druids really that powerful during TBC?
Yep. Especially the later half
BIS during SWP by a long way
The best part about warr being bis dung tank is facts spec into UA all the way down arms then down to improved rev and litterly charge in thuderclap sheild block spam rev/cleve as fast as humanly possible noone will come close to the dps u put out atm i out dps 4.7k Locks in dung pulls 3-5 mobs its absolutly the funnest thing ever i love it and then i use my OS/Duel spec for deep prot build bcus also some boses with adds in raids u can top dps chart as a tank by running UA ive not had any issues at all during P1 raids as Prot warr ive been healing the entire x pac n played prot pal when wotlk dropped so im just getting the warr into Ulduar ill tell u now tho prot pal vs prot war playstyle is also way funner I also made a bear and geared it to about 4k and jus stopped playin it even tho i mained a bear in tbc its just no fun anymore compared to war or even pally but everyone play style diff to each is own, But if u never tanked i reccomend doing what i did lvl war solo in dung from 14 to 80 was the funnest thing ever an good way to learn it in and out
DW frost tank get hype
Wasn't frost the tank spec during original WotLK?
I remember when I broke 100k hp on my bear tank in icc
only 100k? you can easy get 130-150k when "thicc bis"
how can you rate prot warrs below paladins in early game, when they are the most mobile tank in the entire expansion. their speed will be unmatched in naxx, and all the pros of prot pala means nothing when you don't get to use any of them cause you simply don't need to.
The cheat death mechanism is very powerful. It is basically freebie every few minutes. Everything else is better early for pror war, but tables have flipped. Warrior is the aggressive option that naturally has less cushion to fall onto. Whereas paladin is a bouncy castle.
Disregarding Ulduar 10 HMs and ICC hc (early in the patch) prot warriors are probably the most fun to play..not to mention they outdps every other tank (depends) on spec, they also out-threat prot paladins in ulduar and toc..they're also super strong in ulduar with their shockwave + interrupts at certain bosses not to mention the annoying trash.
They got 2 silences, charge/intercept stuns/gapclosers with intervene, with shockwave + conclusive even 2 more stuns
Nitro boots
It's hard to change community perspective once it's established. I know Paladins will be strong but all tank specs have something to bring to a raid in Wotlk and i hope the player base sees this too. Personally, Prot War all the way. No way i'm going to miss one of the most fun specs in Wotlk.
Have fun playing a crap warrior in ulduar lol, literally the worst tank by a mile
It's sad that the min/max meta has killed anyone's desire to recruit prot warriors for raids. I MT'd as a prot warrior for a lot of Vanilla Wrath. But all of these videos crapping on prot warriors will push prot warriors out of any raid spots. I'm honestly sad that I won't be returning to play Wrath Classic because of this - I don't have the time in adulthood to level up a different tanking class, and nobody will recruit us to raids, including GDKPs. :(
That's where you make a reputation for being a fucking sick tank. Or have a personality that makes you more inviting to a raid over so sweatlord dk. Don't cry then blame your class - cause it ain't your class - its probably YOU.
You say in the video that warriors have the best defensive cd in shield wall. Paladins also get a shield wall mechanic but with a lower cd so thats wrong?
Dks even get a shield wall same with feral
Because warriors' mitigates more damage. Shield Wall is 60%. Divine Protection is only 50%.
@@lDanielHolm 10% with a longer cooldown is way worse. 50% will always be enuf to avoid any mechanic and the lesser cd will mean you can do that more often.
the statements just wrong.
@@Ghost-fe1vp he means "best" as in most powerful... Thought it was pretty obvious, though I understand your point, I think you are wrong in the context of comparing classes like this; there are so many cooldowns so it would be hard to take into account CDs etc.
@@Ghost-fe1vp No. It's an emergency button, not something to be pressed on CD. You save it for when you need it, rather than when it's ready. Arguing that "50% is enough to avoid any mechanic" is just utter nonsense.
I played warrior in original and playing pally in classic. Jeez it’s so much easier to tank as a pally.
Wait Druid tanks were the best in TBC? I thought prot pally was the best? Or is that just in dungeons?
Druid tank with BiS gear ends up with so much Dodge that blizzard introduced both steeper Diminishing returns and a hard cap iirc. Both occured sunwell patch, outside of that patch they're a liability the raid has to baby due to innately taking more damage and the shitty threat.
Block tank is bis tank for togc anub ot with full avoidance
Where shaman though
@A KA at 6:11 miss seeing his guides.