Neil, I watch every video because I have several Kubota products and I love your work, but I also have a diesel motor home. The motor coach industry has suffered greatly too, perhaps even more, if you can imagine grandma and grandpa out touring the country. And first thing you know lights come on and before you know it the coach derates to 5 mph and they are basically on the side of the road waiting for a $2,000 tow 2,000 miles from home. This is the best explanation I have seen regarding the issues and components of the DEF system. I have shared your video on one of our Facebook forums and people are responding very positively seeing how the issues we have been dealing with come about. Thank you!
My Kubota M5-111 had its DEF system repaired under warranty twice in the first two years of its life. There was no monetary costs to me, the true costs were that I wasn't able to use my tractor for a month. The last visit to my dealer, I spent time with the service manager learning about DEF systems and fluid change intervals. My power requirements do not consume a large quantity of def, therefore it can deteriorate just from sitting. What you covered today Neal was another piece of good information, thank you. Paul
20 years ago if you told someone to get you some exhaust fluid it would be because you wanted to mess with them... now we put pee in our exhaust. So glad my truck was before DEF and my tractor is below 75HP.
I'm an engineer and it amazes me how often automotive designs (which this actually is) miss the boat on simple logic. Why would you design a sensitive electronic part as an integral part of a large heat exchanger subassembly? Or use a tank/line material incompatible with the primary fuel of a vehicle, where incidental contact is very likely? It's not only the diesel world that's guilty of this, they use similarly poor designs on automotive systems all the time. Makes you wonder if service/parts sales is the reason behind these 'integrated" component assemblies. It's a very common design in fuel and emission components which the owner frequently has no choice to buy from the dealer. It's my personal opinion that this ties directly into the Right to Repair issue. I just replaced a $200+ emissions assembly (Secondary AIR valve) on my son's car because it contained a $15 pressure sensor which isn't available separately and is a very frequent failure point as it collects condensation since it's designed into a low point in the line. It doesn't effect operation at all but is required for the car to pass inspection. it's only purpose is to heat up the converter faster and only during a cold start. Thanks for keeping us up to date on the state of affairs regarding a frequent failure item on our machines and how to best care for them, You folks at Messick's are 1st class and none of this is directed at you.
your not wrong. One thing to keep in mind though is that this is way more painful for the manufacturer than the end consumer. 9/10 times when these have failed, its happened under warranty. If there was a way to cost reduce this the incentive is certainly there.
As a farmer that deals with sub-par service techs frequently, I think it is an issue of simplification. Manufacturers know that there are a lot of techs out there that aren't that bright and if you have a guy that needs a flow chart to figure out that a connecting rod went through the engine block he sure doesn't need more parts to confused by. That and it simplifies parts warehousing given the millions of SKUs dealers already have, if things like this were sold as individual parts there would 5x as many SKUs out there. The main problem is the government regulation that requires equipment to be so complicated. We need to go back to things being less electronic and more mechanical, or at least simpler.
They don't "miss the boat", they make money! In some way they have to make profit and with modern "strenx"steel, better filters, better fluids and so on the possibilitys gets smaller and smaller. Soon they will have to be legally "right" to make "default by design" because they need it go make profit. An old machine will work "for ever" thanks to new clean fuel and new really nice oils and fluids. An old diesel will run as long as there is diesel in the tank and oil in the machine...
To keep the DEF system in good shape, I stopped using Blue Def and now use organic Yellow Def. To maintain freshness, it is collected daily from my own personal Urea generating system which can be used at home, on the road, and/or at a job site.
Working at the biggest Kubota dealership in Georgia, I could change headers in my sleep! The upgrades are great so far, buuut we have been told that before. I will say, big orange stands by there product 100persent.
I personally think that manufacturers should be embarrassed that after almost 15 years this basic system is still so problematic. And I believe I read that the part you were holding in your hand was $2000? Ridiculous. I can't imagine it costs anywhere near that to actually manufacture it. Now I'm not trying to pick on any particular manufacturer, but it doesn't seem like there was much effort put into the constant reliability of the systems. A person who has a small business that owns trucks and equipment with these various systems cannot rely them- it hurts a small business even more having all the downtime. I'm all for saving the environment, but this is not the way to do it. That being said, good info Niel!!
It's definitely a killer for small business owners and especially trucking owner operators. If you're a big company and a machine or truck goes down you'll just throw the driver in another or put the operator at another job and write it off but a small business owner that downtime is costing you your livelihood. I'd also worry about a derate in a dangerous situation, imagine you're in your tractor trying to plow your burning field ahead of a fire and boom, derate, now you've got to abandon your tractor to the fire because you can't escape or your truck derates on a large mountain and you're now in a dangerous spot.
You should do an uncut video with your blunders in it!! We are all human and stumbles happen!! Thanks Neil for all the parts I have gotten from your place!
@@MessicksEquip The Europeans realized that DEF doesn’t really do anything. It kills sum vegetation, it’s expensive and as you have already seen equipment that handles it breaks down often. I learned this in the trucking business. Trucks were the first to get saddle with it , and we learn things from across the great pond
It's a shame that they couldn't design fluid that had an actual lifespan to it especially considering a lot of DEF tanks seem to not come with a drain valve on the bottom so you can drain old fluid without pulling a lot of parts out. It's a multi hour job to drain out the tank on a silverado for example and it's basically impossible to get to the DEF tank on a cat 299.
Heat kills Def. Keep it stored in a cool/cold dry place out of sunlight. Contrary to what Neil talked about keeping the tanks topped off, I have been running my machines on less than 50% full majority of the time... that way I can empty the tank quicker and can refill fresh stuff in more often. Plus if any quality issues/other problems arise I won't have to dump as much on the ground. If storing machine over cold/freezing months, just keep it low enough (
@@farming4g I believe DEF tanks usually have a heater since the cold can mess up DEF also. Kinda idiotic to use a fluid that can freeze at fairly normal winter temps but what do I know, I'm not an engineer.
Caterpillar recommendation is if the fluid is stored at or above 95F then you must test it before use. Most testing I've seen is with a refractometer, it's really easy to use. Not sure of price. But it will tell you what your DEF concentration is. Ideal is 32.5% urea (the rest is deionized water). The acceptable range is 29%-35%.
My Kubota M5-091 with 300 hr just threw a code for the DEF circulation pump. Basically Kubota has a crappy DEF header system that should be replaced as part of a recall. I change my DEF fluid every 6 months, but it hasn’t helped me. If this current issue costs me big time, I’m done with Kubota.
If the deaf fluid/around and causes all that problem why not make the tank smaller in diameter but really deep so that holds more and doesn’t have to be topped off as often
Most tank now have baffles in them and a tank vent filter. Also one of the biggest killer of def quality sensor is dirt, small particles will build and cause the sensor to fail.
I’m not a big fan of particulate filters in general on off road vehicles! I recently bought a L3902 HST and was reassured the regen system if fairly trouble free for years depending on the hrs I put on it! I actually don’t mind the lesser stink of diesel exhaust from a regen system and have always disliked diesel fumes in the past! It would never fail that I would get stuck behind some coal rolling garbage truck and my vehicle would smell like diesel for a day! 😂 I’ve been a believer in that less is more ! The simpler the system the longer it’ll last. All this extra emissions is just destined for failure!
about $2000. Keep in mind, the only time I have seen a customer have to pay that cost is diesel contamination. The other failure modes the manufacturers have covered, thus why I'm impressed by our vendors that in some cases have paid for 2-3-4 of these things on some customers machines when the part was less than perfect.
@@MessicksEquip would those said parts still be covered even waaay out of warranty? Have a 2013 T9 and a 2016 TS6 that use it, none have had issues yet but waiting for the day for something to happen.
Does hot weather affect DEF consumption? I have a 2022 SVL97-2 that I have now put 625hours on it strictly running a forestry mulcher. When I first got the machine It would take roughly 4 days before I had to fill up. Now I have to fill up every day to a day and a half. Any thoughts?
I heard that 5 years ago, and was not true, what was happening was independent shops were selling delete kits. We had one customer who took his truck that was under warranty to an independent shop, for "temporary delete" only cost thousands in repairs later.
Hi Neal we have svl95-2 zero def problems it has 1780 hours kubota did a update to def system at 1500 zero problems before that to so far so but on our m7-172 it had def problems so it got deleted to much down time ⏲️ other than that tractor is awesome
Neil, I watch every video because I have several Kubota products and I love your work, but I also have a diesel motor home. The motor coach industry has suffered greatly too, perhaps even more, if you can imagine grandma and grandpa out touring the country. And first thing you know lights come on and before you know it the coach derates to 5 mph and they are basically on the side of the road waiting for a $2,000 tow 2,000 miles from home. This is the best explanation I have seen regarding the issues and components of the DEF system. I have shared your video on one of our Facebook forums and people are responding very positively seeing how the issues we have been dealing with come about. Thank you!
My Kubota M5-111 had its DEF system repaired under warranty twice in the first two years of its life. There was no monetary costs to me, the true costs were that I wasn't able to use my tractor for a month. The last visit to my dealer, I spent time with the service manager learning about DEF systems and fluid change intervals. My power requirements do not consume a large quantity of def, therefore it can deteriorate just from sitting. What you covered today Neal was another piece of good information, thank you.
Paul
20 years ago if you told someone to get you some exhaust fluid it would be because you wanted to mess with them... now we put pee in our exhaust.
So glad my truck was before DEF and my tractor is below 75HP.
They should get rid of Def altogether
I'm an engineer and it amazes me how often automotive designs (which this actually is) miss the boat on simple logic. Why would you design a sensitive electronic part as an integral part of a large heat exchanger subassembly? Or use a tank/line material incompatible with the primary fuel of a vehicle, where incidental contact is very likely? It's not only the diesel world that's guilty of this, they use similarly poor designs on automotive systems all the time. Makes you wonder if service/parts sales is the reason behind these 'integrated" component assemblies. It's a very common design in fuel and emission components which the owner frequently has no choice to buy from the dealer. It's my personal opinion that this ties directly into the Right to Repair issue.
I just replaced a $200+ emissions assembly (Secondary AIR valve) on my son's car because it contained a $15 pressure sensor which isn't available separately and is a very frequent failure point as it collects condensation since it's designed into a low point in the line. It doesn't effect operation at all but is required for the car to pass inspection. it's only purpose is to heat up the converter faster and only during a cold start.
Thanks for keeping us up to date on the state of affairs regarding a frequent failure item on our machines and how to best care for them, You folks at Messick's are 1st class and none of this is directed at you.
your not wrong. One thing to keep in mind though is that this is way more painful for the manufacturer than the end consumer. 9/10 times when these have failed, its happened under warranty. If there was a way to cost reduce this the incentive is certainly there.
As a farmer that deals with sub-par service techs frequently, I think it is an issue of simplification. Manufacturers know that there are a lot of techs out there that aren't that bright and if you have a guy that needs a flow chart to figure out that a connecting rod went through the engine block he sure doesn't need more parts to confused by. That and it simplifies parts warehousing given the millions of SKUs dealers already have, if things like this were sold as individual parts there would 5x as many SKUs out there. The main problem is the government regulation that requires equipment to be so complicated. We need to go back to things being less electronic and more mechanical, or at least simpler.
They don't "miss the boat", they make money! In some way they have to make profit and with modern "strenx"steel, better filters, better fluids and so on the possibilitys gets smaller and smaller.
Soon they will have to be legally "right" to make "default by design" because they need it go make profit. An old machine will work "for ever" thanks to new clean fuel and new really nice oils and fluids. An old diesel will run as long as there is diesel in the tank and oil in the machine...
To keep the DEF system in good shape, I stopped using Blue Def and now use organic Yellow Def. To maintain freshness, it is collected daily from my own personal Urea generating system which can be used at home, on the road, and/or at a job site.
I don't understand statement on maintaining freshness on yellow def?
Swampwhiteoak/ " personal urea generating system" ...ok, you are referring to the P U G S...lol
Working at the biggest Kubota dealership in Georgia, I could change headers in my sleep! The upgrades are great so far, buuut we have been told that before. I will say, big orange stands by there product 100persent.
I personally think that manufacturers should be embarrassed that after almost 15 years this basic system is still so problematic. And I believe I read that the part you were holding in your hand was $2000? Ridiculous. I can't imagine it costs anywhere near that to actually manufacture it. Now I'm not trying to pick on any particular manufacturer, but it doesn't seem like there was much effort put into the constant reliability of the systems. A person who has a small business that owns trucks and equipment with these various systems cannot rely them- it hurts a small business even more having all the downtime. I'm all for saving the environment, but this is not the way to do it. That being said, good info Niel!!
It's definitely a killer for small business owners and especially trucking owner operators. If you're a big company and a machine or truck goes down you'll just throw the driver in another or put the operator at another job and write it off but a small business owner that downtime is costing you your livelihood.
I'd also worry about a derate in a dangerous situation, imagine you're in your tractor trying to plow your burning field ahead of a fire and boom, derate, now you've got to abandon your tractor to the fire because you can't escape or your truck derates on a large mountain and you're now in a dangerous spot.
Agree 100%
I did a video on your dealership. I was really impressed. Wish I lived closer
Sorry I missed you, ask for Neil if you stop again.
Neil great video and very informative. I think you have a knack for explaining stuff like this.
Great info Neal!! Thanks so much!!
Rather surprising a component built to tolerate piss and ammonia gets its feelings hurt but some off road diesel…
Traveling through the area from north central ohio today.Gonna stop and visit your new dealership this morning.
I hate regen and def. Where I work at it’s the number one cause of down time on all the equipment we run, loaders, excavators and skid steers.
Wow this is the earliest I’ve ever been to a messicks video!! Subscribed!
Regardless of horsepower, government sucks.
You should do an uncut video with your blunders in it!! We are all human and stumbles happen!! Thanks Neil for all the parts I have gotten from your place!
The blunders are at the end of every video. There are a lot 😜
Glad to hear the good news!!! Thanks!!!
On the trucking side of things these have cost us some tow bills and down time. The float sticking on uneven ground, leaking coolant .
Thank you, your video help me to understand many doubts I had.
It’s nice to see that this issue is being addressed. Some day this country will follow Europe and get rid of the DEF system
I wasn't aware Europe has gotten rid of it?. We have engines in the USA that meet EU stage 5 and still have def.
@@MessicksEquip The Europeans realized that DEF doesn’t really do anything. It kills sum vegetation, it’s expensive and as you have already seen equipment that handles it breaks down often. I learned this in the trucking business. Trucks were the first to get saddle with it , and we learn things from across the great pond
@@MessicksEquip Neil Europe quit the DEF before this country started it , it’s called money some one is making a killing on it
The DEF system is idiotic on farm equipment.
The latest Stage V emissions engines in Europe use DEF.
It's a shame that they couldn't design fluid that had an actual lifespan to it especially considering a lot of DEF tanks seem to not come with a drain valve on the bottom so you can drain old fluid without pulling a lot of parts out. It's a multi hour job to drain out the tank on a silverado for example and it's basically impossible to get to the DEF tank on a cat 299.
very informative video. Thank you
I went with the 26 hp for this reason
Great videos Neil
Death header.
Neil, Have you done an update video on DEF shelf life and storage? How often you should refresh it in your equipment if it has been sitting?
I'll see if I can get together enough details to make it a video.
Heat kills Def. Keep it stored in a cool/cold dry place out of sunlight.
Contrary to what Neil talked about keeping the tanks topped off, I have been running my machines on less than 50% full majority of the time... that way I can empty the tank quicker and can refill fresh stuff in more often. Plus if any quality issues/other problems arise I won't have to dump as much on the ground.
If storing machine over cold/freezing months, just keep it low enough (
@@farming4g I believe DEF tanks usually have a heater since the cold can mess up DEF also. Kinda idiotic to use a fluid that can freeze at fairly normal winter temps but what do I know, I'm not an engineer.
Caterpillar recommendation is if the fluid is stored at or above 95F then you must test it before use. Most testing I've seen is with a refractometer, it's really easy to use. Not sure of price. But it will tell you what your DEF concentration is. Ideal is 32.5% urea (the rest is deionized water). The acceptable range is 29%-35%.
Thank you for the video.
A bad idea is a bad idea
Perfect timing to buy a new tractor now!
Tell me more about these block stands that the hydraulic cutter is sitting on. I need some of those.
I've got a kubota M9. I've wondered why that stupid def tank is so small and the light always seems to be on. Now I know.
You stumped me with what is a DEF. Thank goodness for Google, lol. I’ve never owned a machine with over 75 HP.
DEF is an abbreviation for diesel exhaust fluid. Don’t Ever Put It In Your Fuel Tanks!!!!! You will wreck your engine in record time.
My Kubota M5-091 with 300 hr just threw a code for the DEF circulation pump. Basically Kubota has a crappy DEF header system that should be replaced as part of a recall. I change my DEF fluid every 6 months, but it hasn’t helped me. If this current issue costs me big time, I’m done with Kubota.
There was a service campaign to fix this problem
If the deaf fluid/around and causes all that problem why not make the tank smaller in diameter but really deep so that holds more and doesn’t have to be topped off as often
Most tank now have baffles in them and a tank vent filter. Also one of the biggest killer of def quality sensor is dirt, small particles will build and cause the sensor to fail.
I’m not a big fan of particulate filters in general on off road vehicles! I recently bought a L3902 HST and was reassured the regen system if fairly trouble free for years depending on the hrs I put on it! I actually don’t mind the lesser stink of diesel exhaust from a regen system and have always disliked diesel fumes in the past! It would never fail that I would get stuck behind some coal rolling garbage truck and my vehicle would smell like diesel for a day! 😂 I’ve been a believer in that less is more ! The simpler the system the longer it’ll last. All this extra emissions is just destined for failure!
Neil, would have been curious to know the retail price of that DEF assy. you were showing.
about $2000. Keep in mind, the only time I have seen a customer have to pay that cost is diesel contamination. The other failure modes the manufacturers have covered, thus why I'm impressed by our vendors that in some cases have paid for 2-3-4 of these things on some customers machines when the part was less than perfect.
@@MessicksEquip would those said parts still be covered even waaay out of warranty? Have a 2013 T9 and a 2016 TS6 that use it, none have had issues yet but waiting for the day for something to happen.
@@farming4g those did not have the reliability problems compared the one I was holding there. I would not expect problems, or special extensions.
I have a Leeboy paver with the quality sensor code. How can I make sure it’s replaced with the updated version?
I can't stand this government juice
Does the def system have a heater system in it.
@hereford1020. Yes, thaws it out in the tank freezing conditions. Also, the Def lines are heated otherwise it could freeze there too
Does hot weather affect DEF consumption? I have a 2022 SVL97-2 that I have now put 625hours on it strictly running a forestry mulcher. When I first got the machine It would take roughly 4 days before I had to fill up. Now I have to fill up every day to a day and a half. Any thoughts?
If your filing off the gauge, see the bit I covered on the software charge to the tank. It's probably half full.
@@MessicksEquip Correct I am filling it off the gauge. But I’ve always filled it off the gauge And now I have to fill it up twice as much as I used to
@@colemxer are you still putting in the same amount as before you noticed the issue?
@@farming4g yes it only takes 3/4 of the 2.5gal jug every time I fill it since new
Per the software change, the tank is probably half full when it's calling for a fill up. You could safely ignore it for awhile.
The epa is letting the truck industry temporally delete it by programming it out... Parts supply issues are real.
I heard that 5 years ago, and was not true, what was happening was independent shops were selling delete kits. We had one customer who took his truck that was under warranty to an independent shop, for "temporary delete" only cost thousands in repairs later.
@@billpollock1763 yes that exists but the problem is is against Federal law. A better solution is buying a glider kit it gets a new pre EPA engine.
@@sweetpigfarm3645 glider kits are getting harder to get, you are better off with an older unit and restoring it.
Glad I am able to get by with a 25 horsepower tractor.
After my m5-111 got the "new software" it uses over twice as much DEF.
see the video on the software change to the tank. Its not using twice as much, the light is coming on earlier.
Hi Neal we have svl95-2 zero def problems it has 1780 hours kubota did a update to def system at 1500 zero problems before that to so far so but on our m7-172 it had def problems so it got deleted to much down time ⏲️ other than that tractor is awesome