Avro Arrow CF-105 | The Canadian delta winged interceptor aircraft that never was. Full documentary
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- čas přidán 29. 09. 2022
- The Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow was a delta-winged interceptor aircraft designed and built by Avro Canada. The CF-105 held the promise of Mach 2 speeds at altitudes exceeding 50,000 feet (15,000 m) and was intended to serve as the Royal Canadian Air Force's (RCAF) primary interceptor into the 1960s and beyond.
The Arrow was the culmination of a series of design studies begun in 1953 that examined improved versions of the Avro Canada CF-100 Canuck. After considerable study, the RCAF selected a dramatically more powerful design, and serious development began in March 1955. The aircraft was intended to be built directly from the production line, skipping the traditional hand-built prototype phase. The first Arrow Mk. 1, RL-201, was rolled out to the public on 4 October 1957, the same day as the launch of Sputnik I.
Flight testing began with RL-201 on 25 March 1958, and the design quickly demonstrated excellent handling and overall performance, reaching Mach 1.9 in level flight. Powered by the Pratt & Whitney J75, another three Mk. 1s were completed, RL-202, RL-203 and RL-204. The lighter and more powerful Orenda Iroquois engine was soon ready for testing, and the first Mk 2 with the Iroquois, RL-206, was ready for taxi testing in preparation for flight and acceptance tests by RCAF pilots by early 1959.
On 20 February 1959, Prime Minister of Canada John Diefenbaker abruptly halted the development of both the Arrow and its Iroquois engines before the scheduled project review to evaluate the program could be held. Canada tried to sell the Arrow to the US and Britain, but no agreements were concluded. Two months later the assembly line, tooling, plans, existing airframes, and engines were ordered to be destroyed. The cancellation was the topic of considerable political controversy at the time, and the subsequent destruction of the aircraft in production remains a topic for debate among historians and industry pundits. "This action effectively put Avro out of business and its highly skilled engineering and production personnel scattered".
In the post-Second World War period, the Soviet Union began developing a capable fleet of long-range bombers with the ability to deliver nuclear weapons across North America and Europe.
The main threat was principally from high-speed, high-altitude bombing runs launched from the Soviet Union travelling over the Arctic against military bases and built-up industrial centres in Canada and the United States. To counter this threat, Western countries developed interceptors that could engage and destroy these bombers before they reached their targets.
A. V. Roe Canada Limited had been set up as a subsidiary of the Hawker Siddeley Group in 1945, initially handling repair and maintenance work for aircraft at the Malton, Ontario Airport, today known as Toronto Pearson International Airport. The next year the company began the design of Canada's first jet fighter for the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF), the Avro CF-100 Canuck all-weather interceptor. The Canuck underwent a lengthy and troubled prototype stage before entering service seven years later in 1953. Nevertheless, it went on to become one of the most enduring aircraft of its class, serving in a variety of roles until 1981.
Recognizing that the delays that affected the development and deployment of the CF-100 could also affect its successor, and the fact that the Soviets were working on newer jet-powered bombers that would render the CF-100 ineffective, the RCAF began looking for a supersonic, missile-armed replacement for the Canuck even before it had entered service. In March 1952, the RCAF's Final Report of the All-Weather Interceptor Requirements Team was submitted to Avro Canada.
General characteristics
Crew: 2
Length: 77 ft 9 in (23.70 m)
Wingspan: 50 ft (15 m)
Height: 21 ft 2 in (6.45 m)
Wing area: 1,225 sq ft (113.8 m2)
Airfoil: root: NACA 0003.5 (modified); tip: NACA 0003.8 (modified)
Empty weight: 49,040 lb (22,244 kg)
Gross weight: 56,920 lb (25,818 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 68,605 lb (31,119 kg)
Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney J75-P-3 afterburning turbojet engines, 16,500 lbf (73 kN) thrust each dry, 23,500 lbf (105 kN) with afterburner
Performance
Maximum speed: 1,136 kn (1,307 mph, 2,104 km/h) at 50,000 ft (15,000 m) max. recorded speed (Mach 2+ potential)
Maximum speed: Mach 1.98
Cruise speed: 527 kn (606 mph, 976 km/h) / M0.91 at 36,000 ft (11,000 m)
Combat range: 360 nmi (410 mi, 670 km)
Service ceiling: 53,000 ft (16,000 m)
Wing loading: 46.5 lb/sq ft (227 kg/m2)
Thrust/weight: 0.825 at loaded weight
Armament
Missiles: * 2× AIR-2A Genie unguided nuclear rockets
or
Up to 4× Canadair Velvet Glove (cancelled 1956) or 8x AIM-4 Falcon or 3 AIM-7 Sparrow II 2D active guidance missiles (cancelled)
Avionics
Hughes MX-1179 fire control system
#avro #avroarrow #airplanes - Věda a technologie
Click the link to watch more aircraft, heroes and their stories, missions: czcams.com/play/PLBI4gRjPKfnNx3Mp4xzYTtVARDWEr6nrT.html
The Arrow was so much more than a plane. It was the pride of the Country !
Thanks for the great doc. My Father was part of this great adventure, he was a draftsman for Orenda doing final blueprints of the turbine blades in the Iroquois engines. I’m sure everyone who worked there had a smile as big as my Dads when they got out of bed for work. I was only 5 yrs.old but I can recall the turmoil and dejection in my family.
My father was an engineer on the Orenda's Iroquois, he was canadian but he had done his master degree in France in Aeronautics... a big brain of the time
I was 13 when the Arrow was scrapped and i remember it like was yesterday . A close relative was an Avro machinist and our family and friends followed every announcement. If certainly made Canada proud. John Diefenbaker became Canada’s most hated prime minister overnight. My 13 year old brain imagined dozens of gruesome ends for him. We spent days hoping that the decision would be reversed. Then all those beautiful planes were cut into scrap, as it denying that Canada ever created the world’s greatest plane. The excuse was that the Canada’s balanced budget couldn’t survive. Times changed eh! Now we have the debt and no Arrow or pride. Curse you John D, I still remember.
At 6, I watched with my father, the Arrow take off, fly and land at Malton Airport in Toronto in 1958. The right landing gear collapsed on landing.
The right side landing gear collapse happened at Trenton not Malton.
@@jerryg53125
The right landing gear collapse occurred at Malton on Nov 11, 1958. Aircraft #202.
An Arrow only landed once at an alternate airport - Trenton - on February 2nd, 1959. It was an uneventful landing. That was aircraft #204.
@@raynus1160 Yes you are right and I was wrong.
@@jerryg53125❤
I am familiar with most of this story the the case of our (UK) TSR2. There is also Concorde which the UK government sabotaged but, for various reasons, could not completely stop. There are several things I take from these and similar stories.
1/ Why were the existing aircraft ordered to be destroyed? The money has already been spent and the scrap metal is not going to bring it back. In the case of the TSR2, which used a lot of magnesium in its construction, the airframes were burnt which means that the government was not even trying to recoup some cost. And what can anyone hope to achieve, financially, by destroying the documentation? There is obviously more reason than cost for the decision .
2/ The stage of horrendous cost overruns had been passed. The problems had been solved and several aircraft were already flying, and flying well. If the decision was for financial reasons then the phrase "Scrapping the ship to save ha'porth of tar" comes to mind, a saying used to describe a form of stupidity. Are politicians really be that stupid? The jury is still undecided on that one.
3/ Beancounters, including politicians, just seem unable to grasp the concept that if you want to make a leap in technology then there must be unforeseeable costs. There will be not be a single expert available to give you the answers. The only way to get the answers then the only way is masses of study & experimentation in totally new ground not yet even surveyed. And so this will almost certainly involve questions that noone even knows enough to ask yet.
If they want cheap then they must be prepared to accept mediocre second best. Because while 'cheap' is being put together someone else will be moving forward.
The Rolls-Royce RB-211 also springs to mind as the UK government was going to cancel the project due to overruns. However the project did continue and went on to become a multi-billion pound success story that has become the worlds no.1 airliner engine.
4/ Thus politicians are totally unqualified to be involved in decision making on projects that involve pushing the bounds of technology.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 you are wrong about the problems with the tsr2 it was due to go into production the production line and all the jigs and fixtures were built! if it was about cost overruns the completed prototypes could have been kept (why not) It is quite clear that it and the arrow had to be thoroughly removed from any possibility of being made and the pressure to destroy all the tools documents and airframes clearly came from the same country that offered an alternative aircraft. One that had even greater problems and delays and cost overruns!!!
Look to the consequences. Sales went to American plane makers. The USA simply could not tolerate 2 competent companies (Avro and later BAC) building alternatives to their offerings. If they'd had more influence in France, they'd have shut down almost every competing plane maker in the military sector. In Japan and Germany,it was simply a matter of bribery to get them to buy F-104s.
@@markscully2342 The good 'ol USofA - blighting innovation and stifling competition globally, for generations.
Simply put Diefenbaker was bribed by the American's and the British government was bullied and probably threatened as Uk still owed money for the second world war
@@jasondrummond9451 Maybe so, but not in these cases.
they will be talking about this engineering marvel still in 1000 years.
doubtful, the only one's who still talk about it now are arrowheads who think the CBC mockumentary is true.
yeah, but colapsing undercarriages ain't good news, it seems so basic, considering the high tech nature of this Beauty.
The cancelation of the Avro Arrow was and is a truly dark day for Canada. No wonder we have never reached our potential. We are but an outpost of the USA where our best and brightest are lured to keep us in our place . We may get protection but at what costs.
"get protection"...
In other words, Canada didn't have an independent foreign policy .
What a phenomenal jet fighter! So many innovations!!
The power those Orenda Iroquois engines produced! Wow!!
Better than any jet fighter in the world!!
no
Those engines made that plane something else. 💪
@@kiwidiesel
Those engines never powered a flyable CF-105.
Better than any fighter jet in the world??? 🤨 You sure about that, or are you just being biased because you're Canadian??? 🤔
@ayeeequanpsn5896
I am not Canadian. it was at the time the most technologically advanced fighter out there!!. from materials used all the way to the powerplant! In fact that there are anes out there that were.prkeuced years after that, technically, could not come close to this marvel!
These are facts, not opinions
It's obvious that you don't know very much about this aircraft. It seems like you're just a typical troll who likes to make stupid comments like " you're saying that because you are Canadian," which you were wrong because again, I am not Canadian!
The irony is that the UK developed the TSR2 "directly after" the Arrow. Very similar, but not nearly as good as the Arrow. The TSR2 program was cancelled also, with strong suspicion that it was squashed by the USA. I can easily believe that the Arrow was also squished by the USA, who were, at the time< was screwing the pooch with the Valkery and rather poor fighters like the VooDoo and the Phantom. Not to speak of the crazy development process of the Thunderchief and the F111. The Arrow, and TSR2 to some extent, were a clear threat to the US industry.
How was the US screwing anything the Valkyrie? Also the Phantom is probably one of the greatest tactical warplanes in history, faster and more versatile than Arrow, and armed with better weapons than available for Arrow. Canadians got some good use out of those Voodoos, and the F-105 proved itself as a great tactical bomber in Vietnam, a mission it was expected to fail at.
@Winter Now you obviously dont know much about us involvement in the arrow program
@@Historybuff_769 Actually Winter Now knows a lot more than you do about the US involvement in the Arrow program.
@@Historybuff_769 I'm always ready to learn something new. So what am missing? Because the information i have is that American engines were provided to power Arrow, an American B-47 was used to test fly the Orenda engine, American windtunnel testing was performed on Arrow models, other Arrow models were flown after being boosted near Wallops Island, and Arrow test pilots received American test pilot training. You seem to be in possession of additional, verifiable facts. I'd love to know what those facts are and your source.
Someone spread the 'Knowledge' that everything was missiles.
Sweden and the USSR were set not to believe each other or the USA. In the USA the manufacturers did not believe that and got a clear run . Research continued there.
Now there are many fighters with research costs divided by the number of aircraft.
Eventually some European countries got together and made aircraft as well as France.
I wonder why France did not like NATO.
I worked for AVRO in the blue print crib. And watched the first flight of the Arrow on the roof. And was told from the fellow in another dept that his wife called and we were all let go March 29/1959. What a shock it was and the US A was there the same day we we’re. They took all out top men, Yes CANADA lost thanks to Defenbaker
We were let go March 20/1959. Was not the 29th 1’500 people
Very similar to the TRS2 cancelation
What a phenomenal aircraft that would have been had it gone into service, such a shame, it might even have still been in service, it still looks so modern.
Diefendick, killed the aviation industry in canada, we have nothing now. Commercial, military, gone.
We are nothing in the aviation world even now.
@@edheather4056
Up until recently, Canada had the 3rd-largest aerospace industry on the planet.
Not having a wind tunnel in Canada to evaluate the characteristics of the high speeds that were designed exposed the testing to US airforce officials, which were called as soon as the wind tunnel tests were underway and the facility’s operators were astonished by what they saw.
Anyone who thinks or thought that the Americans would allow another country to assume air superiority is greatly mistaken. It is far too important politically to allow this. The only exception that I am aware of would be the Harrier fighter.
The Iroquois engines had finally arrived and were sitting in the hanger waiting to be installed when the cancellation happened. It would have been treason to bolt them on and fly the aircraft once to see what it would have done with them on.
Similar engines later appeared on the fastest US plane ever (except the Blackbird) the delta wing bomber 6 engines- I forget the name)
@@hughgreid B-70 Valkuri
Yet *63 years later* the Russians STILL have turboprop bombers that the Arrow would be more than competent at dealing with !
My father worked on the plane's iroquois engine. The test pilot Żurakowski was always walking around and knew everything of the plane before having to fly it. One day on take off, the plane started to roll. Żurakowski immediately turned off the automatic horizontal stabilizer and saved himself and the plane. The feedback loop had be inversely wired. His knowledge of the plane had allowed him to save the situation.... he was a great test pilot
that's so neat man!!! thanks for sharing brother
I saw a bunch of the pieces of the arrow(s), as well as the Iroquois engine, at CFB Rockliffe a number of times between 1967 and 1973. The engine, was sitting in an engine stand, unmarked, against one wall of the hanger, and the aircraft pieces, were in a pile behind the hanger. As an RCAF pilot on jets at the time, it was a sad sight. Even that many years of the cancellation and breakup of the aircraft, it was remarkable, how many times this betrayal came up in conversation. I believe the Arrow, would have had a long, successful, life. The main Russian long range bomber is still the Bear. I was stationed on the West Coast but my buddies on the East Coast, routinely intercepted the Soviet Bear bombers as they transited down to Cuba.
Wow , I was at Rockcliffe from 65 untill 69 , my dad was stationed there . Hung out at the hangers all the time , what a great base to grow up at!
What an absolutely gorgeous plane!!
Such a Canadian legend, along with Terry Fox and God knows what else. I was actually choking up when they showed the clip of the defence minister pulling the cord and revealing RL 201 in all its glory, and the sea of faces of all the Avro workers gathered for the occasion.
I like to think that there is an Arrow stashed in a barn somewhere in Canada with a light covering of dust and hay, just waiting to be discovered.
The story of the Arrow still breaks my .heart.
I'm from Toronto and have been a huge Arrow fan most of my life.
Oh, the possibilities 👍.
Oh, the dumb politicians.
Strikes me as the same thing happened to the TSR2 the Americans cannot stand to be out engineered by a superior jet and the same thing happened to the air frame broken up and destroyed oh almost forgot the CONCORD
This is one of the most amazing aircraft it's would been a great fighter jet that was way ahead of it's time
was an interceptor ,not fighter.
@@rockwood7086 true but it's would have been great aircraft if it wasn't cancelled by the powers that be that wanted to remove all reminders of it
no it wasn't, obsolete before its first flight
@@gocatoon4591Every single technological innovation is obsolete before it hits the market. This is the ridiculous thing about people queueing outside a phone shop for days and days to get the latest trinket, not understanding the 'cutting edge' item they crave has already been superceded by the next model currently on the drawing board.
Great channel!!
Great videos!
😎🇺🇸
Thanks 👍
The woman @27:40 who tells Mr. Diefenbaker what to do ("Ba a Canadian, buy Canadian), that is my aunt. :)
Could not be more proud of her.
👍😮
WHAT WAS HER NAME?
ARROW and TSR-2 both cancelled...what were the candian and british govts of the time thinking?.
They were thinking neither one can stop an ICBM.
Pieople when i said "what were they thinking" it was meant as a figure of speech and not liitteritly.
@@m1t2a1It was flawed thinking though. True, and aircraft cannot stop an ICBM. However an ICBM cannot be flown right to he edge of the enemy's airspace as a display of power and the ultimate move in the game of brinkmanship. The politicians considered these aircraft - the Avro Arrow, BAC TSR2 - were too expensive, but then proceeded to spend huge amounts of money on ICBM systems that sat in silos and aboard nuclear submarines acting as a 'deterrent' for the next forty years or so, many of which are still active or in the process of being upgraded / renewed. Which do you think has proved to be the bigger cost?
Canada shot itself in the foot, as usual. Pretty normal for my country.
They were thinking "If we spend any more tax dollars on these turkeys the public will have our scalps".
It turns out in docs released, Russian only had 5 operational nukes in 1958, and the US probly had none, and the US reverted back to bomber focus. Some blueprints are in Saskatoon, at the Diefenbaker Center, of all places.
The USSR successfully tested 36 nuclear devices alone in 1958. They had been developing nuclear weapons since 1949 and successfully launched their R-7 Semyorka, the world's first intercontinental ballistic missile, in 1957.
@@raynus1160 Thanks for the info. Still does not change my view that Canada needed the Arrow. That plane was and still is the base for all other planes. The F4 Phantom for example, two engines and two crew, and the US thinks they were the first to do this.
@@bradyelich2745
The F-4 was in development at the same time as the Arrow & flew only three months later. Like the CF-105, It had been in development since 1953. The Northrop F-89 Scorpion was a two-crew, twin-engine interceptor that first flew in 1948, as did the Curtis-Wright XF-87 Blackhawk. So yes, the US was actually the first to do this.
@@raynus1160 none of those were missiles
@@raynus1160 but why does US only claim this feat with the f4 in vid i watched?
I never will understand the romance of Canadian Government with SCREWING Canadians. It just never stops.
Yank's stooges
It almost reminds me of the concorde… what a great story…. What a shame ….
I am in the process of building a 3D arrow. Converting a 2D drawing into a 3D modeling is a challenge.
I am using blender. I am on my 17th attempt and 3 generation modeling. I started on may 1, 2020.
Bring back the Arrow …. Free Willie !!!
I think this is one of the points in time Canada gave control over to people that did not our best interest at heart. We've only gone done hill from there.
If you are going to look at it purely for the defence of Canada against 'missiles' don't spend at all.
it is kinda funny. canada had potential on this one project and because it never came to be...they hold on to it like martyrs.
As a Canadian aviation enthusiast I have to agree, some of the things Avro Arrow fans say borders on delusional.
Arrow wasn't one project (airframe, engines, and fly by wire ) each of which were cutting edge. 🤔 now throw in the full distruction based only desires of Americans. Then in aftermath you see the brain trust flow south and create us space presence
All these are why canadians cling too it
@T A
Of course they contributed to Concorde.
Avro Canada was owned by Britain's Hawker Siddeley and the Arrow's Chief Design Engineer was a former Hawker Siddeley/A.V Roe (England) employee. He moved back to England after the Arrow's cancellation & headed up HS's advanced projects group (SST research).
The Shuttle orbiter was designed by Rockwell International, formerly North American Aviation. Ex-Avro engineer Jim Chamberlain's shuttle design was rejected.
@S A Jim Chamberlin was Project manager for Gemini but he was fired by Nasa.He was listed as a consultant on Apollo but never worked on the project.The shuttle design he worked on was rejected in favor of North American Rockwell's design.Wikipedia is not a good source.
Is there a documentary out there that talks about the Iroquois engine and why it was special? They're talking Mach 3. What would alow for that in the engine design?
The simple truth is that the crushing costs of an airframe development, a powerplant development and a fire control system development program was too much for a country of 18 million people. It's no more complicated than that.
Alot of historical footage of the time. Amazing and so damn sad. It was too good a plane.
Oh I'm going to get some hate for this but I have to say it. Like the RAF the aircraft the RCAF wanted was the F-14. Both had the mission of intercepting Soviet bombers coming over (roughly) the northpole. This means a plane with long endurance, a powerful radar, and large long range air to air missiles. That means the F-14/AWG9/Phoenix. It's the mission the Tomcat was built for. But neither Canada nor the UK wanted to pony up to give their air forcees the plane they needed to do the task assigned to them.
Wow those American Pratt and Whitney engines made that thing go really fast..and today they buy nothing but American tech f18 and f35 to name a few and yes they were developing Canadian made engines but were not ready...
@Tripwire yes it was Canadian but the engines were U.S made...
Actually A.V.Roe was a British company.
my grandfather and his brother.....came from john brown shipyards scotland....1946 to Avro.....Grampa did get rehired until his retirement in 1970.....flight inspector.....
Shipyards of my relations
@@FIORGOBASAUDEAMUS a very specialized shipyard john browns was......
Canada 150 - Lost Opportunities
Cancellation? Well, OK but the destruction of all Data and at least one model.
The TSR2 exactly the same!
The Euston Arch. Sell it? No; destroy it!!!
The data wasn't destroyed. Arrow plans were preserved for years.
Thank you for that peace of fotage. I really feel that there are may be similarities or parallels between the tsr 2 and the arrow. In both cases seens to be the u.s. in anykind of involved. may be that the big brother seems not so friendly as it pretends to be. I think the u.s. as becoming a major air industriy used her influence gained during the second world war to develop and expand her air industry no matters wether it is behind or not...see tsr2 and the arrow
43:09 Three could have been flown to England.How?There is no way the CF105 Arrows could have been flown across the Atlantic Ocean.
Indeed. That's a nonsensical myth that refuses to let up for some odd reason.
As awesome as the Arrow was, it sadly didn’t see service. Avro’s CF100, aka Clunk, was the best fighter of it’s time till the development of supersonic fighters.
It was a solid interceptor in its own right, but would've had a tough time against an F-86, Hawker Hunter, or MiG 15.
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would have archived as mush as possible, kept at least 2 for posterity and written and oral histories for a look back. Criminal behaviour.
There was similar story with few Polish designs to be destroyed or not even build or completed during communist era because one could not make anything better than Big Brother (Soviet Union). Was some Big Brother involved here? Lockheed F-104 Starfighter scandal comes to mind. Excellent video, thank you.👍
Strange, the Lockheed scandal doesn't come to mind at all. SO what's the narrative? That the US supressed Arrow? And the evidence for that is...what? That the US feared that Canada would build a plane that was slower amd more expensive than airplanes that already existed, and would carry weapons deficient to those that the US was only months away from unveiling? And also that the US applied pressure by...donating engines to power the Arrow, and a plane to test fly the Arrow's planned engine? That the US provided wind tunnel and telemetry equipment? That Arrow would have used American missiles, and possibly American engines? The US had nothing to fear from Arrow, and probably had some profit motive given how dependent it would be on American hardware.
Hello. I am not looking through the prism of better planes, better engines, better missiles. That is very simplistic way to look at things. Even back in the day on the other side of the "iron curtain " many people thought this was. I believe that the issue goes much deeper than "better". And it is the market aspect, and market dominance. I wish it was only better,faster, stronger. Even the F-104 wasn't about the better plane, but possession of the market. See, we have to look in the perspective of not now, but in 25-50 years and beyond. Similar things happened in Poland for that matter. But that beyond the scope of this. Best regards.
There is an elephant in the living room.
Traded for an antiaircraft missile with a warhead that made Canada a nuclear power for a while.
m1t2a1: The F101B Voodoo also carried nuclear tipped missiles. The same missiles the Arrow would have carried if it went into production.
Except for the fact Canada never actually bought the warheads so the BOMARCs were essentially useless.
Canadian Starfighter squadrons in Europe carried US-supplied nukes from 1964 to late 1971.
@@raynus1160 That ended because of the Bomarc Missile Crisis.
@@m1t2a1
Canada's nuclear strike role in Europe was ended by PET's non-nuclear aggression policies. The Bomarc remained operational in Canada until 1972, when they were deemed obsolete by the DND. Nuclear-tipped Genie missiles were utilized by CF-101 interceptor squadrons until 1984, when the Voodoo was retired as an interceptor.
At no time were any of these nuclear weapons under Canadian control - they were stored, loaded, armed, and controlled by USAF personnel stationed at Canadian bases.
The usa was not Canadas only market ??
Time to let it go guys, let it go and you'll feel so much better.
Never happen.
As a Canadian i am ashamed of what our government does they are completely incompetent and always will be, Canada needs a prime minister that will great things for canada, we waste so much money as a government its utterly ridiculous especially the energy plant that Trudeau ordered thats countless millions over budget
Why didn't they donate the planes to an Aerospace Museum!!!!😞😞😞😞
Us stop the arrow
No doubt the US influence killed the Avro Arrow like the British TSR2...They won't have a competetive player next to them!
I have doubts. Arrow was slower and shorter ranged than American planes, and lacked fire control for long range missiles. How was this airplane competition with American planes at all?
Bullshit. The Canadians have nobody to blame except their own stupid politicians
@@winternow2242It was killed off by the inefficient US sprint missile system for interception of Russian bombers!!!
@@mikewatts1450 Sprint missile? It was killed off because Canada decided that they couldn't afford it and nobody wanted it. Avro and Orenda were both subsidiaries of Avro UK, which developed neither an Arrow or PS.13 engine.
@@winternow2242 The sprint missle system was deployed in the Antarctica to take down Russian bombers before they entered into American air space. Problem was they had limited range and fell short of maintaining super sonic speeds .🤫! My Father witnessed the failure of the sprint systems 😉 It's a little known fact . Plus the Def could pocket a little cash 😉👍!!
The Avro Arrow just like the BAC TSR 2 was cancelled due to American political pressure.
Isn't it funny the so called capitalists didn't want there to be any rival companies that would you know, help spread capitalistic ideals...
no it wasn't
@@gocatoon4591 Yes it was.
@@darkraven8103 show the proof. There is none.
As an American I agree that there is most likely some truth in that. America was and still is the major funder of NATO. In the 50's thru the 80's this was needed more so as there were many many more NATO airbases than today. America has many documented instances of pressuring NATO and Asian allies to buy American. Or to just not purchase aircraft made by the allied Countries thereby taking away a major potential market. Many Allied Countries produce their own aircraft, and good ones. Many other socio-economic factors involved but I am pretty sure we had a hand in it's cancelation.
Le principe de peter dit que tout homme à tendance à s'élever à son niveau d'incompétence,les hommes politiques sont en général le meilleur exemple de ce principe.
😊
Did the USSR not produce a copy of it? They were good at doing such things.
What Soviet airplane looks and flies like Arrow?
@@winternow2242 I’ve no idea? My post is a question.
@@lcprivatepilot1969 it's odd that you'd question an event that you have no idea even occurred. The Soviets did copy a lot of projects, but not everything. I've seen nothing that specifically resembles Arrow.
@@winternow2242 I didn’t say they did.
@@winternow2242 oh its the guy who bashes anything made by Avro. Posting on any and every Avro Arrow YT channel.
They say everything is political, even aircraft.
No doubt the Americans were jealous of the Anglo-French Concorde.
Why would the Americans be jealous of an airplane that nobody else wanted?
Another example of how Canada could lose one of the most advanced military aircraft worldwide. Politicians with No ability to see the future. Diefenbaker should just have stayed in Prince Albert, over 30,000 hi tech jobs were lost forever, never to return to Canada. After all these years this decision still haunts and effects Canada. Shame on all Politicians of the
era. The loss of respect in the world, starts with this unbeliveable decision. Especially after WW 1 and WW 2's world respect the Canadian Military gained. This story can be spinned away, and will be, as it has been. The truth is Our Canadian PM's decision. My Thoughts
The Americans were basically jealous of those countries that made advances in aviation.
France, Britain, and Sweden seemed to do just fine.
Canadian conservatives still celebrate the cancellation of the Arrow.
🙂😉
Do Canadian liberals still celebrate cancellation of the Avro Canada C102 Jetliner?
Without the cancellation of the CF-105 and ensuing brain-drain, Armstrong may not have left his footprints on the moon.
The old saying was that Canada put America on the moon.
NASA was going to the moon, with or without 32 ex-Avro Canada engineers.
@@raynus1160 … don’t forget the ex-Paperclip engineers, including von Braun.
That's quite a leap of imagination.
@@dashcroft1892
Absolutely. His team was responsible for getting them there and home. Grumman's Tom Kelly and team actually gave them the ability to land on the moon. It should be noted that ex-Avro Canada engineer Owen Maynard was Kelly's lead design engineer on the LEM.
I really get upset every time I think of what happened and what could of came from this. J. Diefenbaker was so weak and could not see the manipulation from the states and see or imagine the potential future for Canada. What you see the states as today should of been Canada as a world leader. All the talent and brilliant minds that made up Avro Canada all Canadian went to the states. Any of the states jet fighters you see now was inspired from the Arrow. The worst day in history for Canadian economy "Black Friday" almost 50k jobs. Canada has never recovered from this and continues to be run by complete Idiots, but hopeful the Conservatives can redeem them selves with Pierre Poilievre in 2025. He feels like a different breed of Prime minister but we will have to see.
Canada's "Conservatives" are also beholden to the Yanks .
🐑🐩
What we all forget from time to time is that the military of nations such as are make no choices, civilians do, like our president of today, thinking has never been his wheelhouse except for his own family, not even his party. The Avro Arrow was a 50's problem and some time in the late 60's a jet close to it was made, but that was after President Johnson had killed a bunch of pilots and the military was fighting with people who where just out of college or just going in, but the flower people of the democrat party saw their power was in flower power. The Russians saw the problem and it's military mentions it might be a good idea to spend some of the new oil money and the air force of Russian asked nicely, "if you would like to live" please twice the speed of sound is not the goal, many times is, go built it. Meanwhile, a trip to outer space would show them just who is boss. Air Power has had great people plan 20 years ahead of meer people, and depending on a nation to make you rich is for the politicians who charge the most, the millions or billions that Nancy has, she still has, she's headed for Italy thank you, first class all way, and the 15 dollars and hour folks will buy all her stuff. She will say no twice a week and call it good, but when the mafia stops by, now they will get her spending limit by congress. Like AVRO getting screwed by fools is no different now. 8.3 % increase by our President and paying twice as much for mike is democrat math, looking forward to 9 dollar gas is love at first sight, and being paid by anyone willing to pay Hunter my be American, but selling time with his dad is the definition of our US Treason law as per our constitution. The republicans understand it but nobody jump a mental case.
They should of just kept the jets. An used them in are defending are country until the conservatives left office
Kept 5 expensive planes that flew no faster than airplanes that had been flying for years, and had no weapons systems for long range missiles? And that would have defended Canda...how?
30:39 docs are released that show the US lobby killed the Arrow. Saying Canada would get missiles, that never appeared. How much was spent on that debacle? The SR-71 was the result of the Arrow program. Variable intakes, clam shell canopy, and the engines. The Arrow was big enough to house many years of radar and weapons and it was computer driven.
The missiles that never appeared caused the Bomarc Missile Crisis, because they did appear. Turns out some Canadians didn't want to be a nuclear power.
The CF-105 Arrow didn't have VG inlets and the Blackbirds do not have clamshell canopies. The Blackbird's J58 engines are completely different animals than the Arrow's (proposed) PS.13 Iroquois' - not even in the same ballpark. Different design, different fuel, different ignition system, 20% more thrust in afterburner.
Comparing the SR-71 to an Arrow is like comparing an apple to a mushroom.
@@raynus1160 The CF-105 was planned with variable intakes and were the first engineers to work it out. The blackbird has the same canopy as the arrow. The J58 would not have been developed so fast without the Iroquois.
To be fair - the SR71 engines appear to owe little to the Iroquois. The Iroquois is a plain & simple powerful monster. But the SR71 engines are based on 'trickery'.
On the SR71 engine the turbines are nothing at all special. Their only special feature is in being shutdown at high speeds while the afterburners carry on running using rammed air. This is because the turbines would be destroyed if running at the speed required.
@@Kimdino1 To be faairrrr... Sorry. My inner Letterkenny.
38:20 that is complete fabrication.
The problem with Canadians is that they don't know that they are living in an AMERICAN OUTPOST. Canada is simply a distant 'extension' of different American companies, flung out to the North. That's why nothing of significance is designed in Canada as all of the head staff / head engineering is kept in American headquarters, not out in the different Canadian outposts. No, as a Canadian your own hope is to migrate to America and work for a large American company there.
Canceling the project is one thing, but waisting the knowledge aquired ( airplanes and iroquois engine) machinery ,blue prints,actual fully serviceable aircraft wiped out is something else. The USA convair delta dart started operation in 1959. 1 year after Avro arrow first flight. The only possible reason is the USA forcing Canada to kneel down . We were stuck between USSR and USA. All Canadien engineer left to USA after the arrow demise and NASA was created. Since that day, we only bought USA made aircraft.
Sexiest aircraft ever! The Russians were in there right away, then the Americans stole the tech and it was done. Still in my mind it looks like the space shuttle. ! 😊
Hub? What technology did the Americans steal? What does the space shuttle have to do with this?
Don’t think the US stole much, they still haven’t exhibited anything that compares with the genius of the breakthroughs of that era. A lot of Avro’s engineers helped create the Concord that flew flawlessly until it run into some one’s discarded scraps 26 years later.
Maybe a skinny space shuttle.
@@lwdp74 the F-4 Phantom flew just 2 months later, was faster, more versatile, carried better weapons, and was cheaper. How does that not compare with the "genius of the breakthroughs of that era"?
3 letters. CIA
Still blame the Tories and amurikkkans for screwing both the program and Canada over.
How did the US screw anything? Arrow was big, expensive, short ranged, slow and lacking a fire control system for long range missiles, and it was cancelled by a conservative government democratically elected by Canadian voters on a platform of cost cutting.
But sure...murikkkkan pressure.
🇺🇸🇺🇸 cheers little buddy !
Short sightedness and and a ridiculous over-dependence on the U.S. that infects our national policies to this day. By the way, where is 206? No one seems to know.
Wasn't the order to scrap it? Everybody seems to think it was scrapped. What information do you have to the contrary?
@@winternow2242 There was never any physical or photographic evidence of it being scrapped. There was a persistent rumour that the night before they were scrapped a plane rumoured to be an Arrow took off from the plant runaway and never returned. There was also a rumour floating around in the 1980's and 90's that Jan Jurakowski had a very large building on his rural property that no one was allowed to enter. Could all be urban legend, or maybe not.
"Bye the way where is 206".The cockpit section of RL 206 is in the Canada Air and Space Museum in Ottawa.
@@jerryg53125 Yes there is a section there with 206 painted on it.
@@fittobetiedyed5315 Are you saying that this isn't RL-206.
There was a world wide economic recession during 1958 which caused many businesses to close. The Arrow was too expensive during that global recession and the plan was based on selling the plane to the US and England which were struggling with the recession. Canada sure wasn't going to buy that grossly expensive (for the time) plane. The conservatives had just gotten an oportunity to run the Canadian government and they sure weren't going to squander their opportunity by bankrupting Canada right out of the blocks spending the treasury on a gold plated airplane that no other country had the money to buy either. The conservatives were in power and the liberals were ass hurt by that, liberals are ass hurt all the time by everything and they're always looking for someone to blame for their misery, nothing has changed since 1958. The YF-23 was a fantastic airplane, but we just couldn't afford it, even though we needed it, it just wasn't going to happen. Maybe we should blame the Canadians.
What a waste!!! What a waste!!!!😢
Flogging a dead horse - give it a rest
No . .Tory's fucked thousands of people . . I don't care how long ago it was . . They don't change .
When will America admit the truth then.
@@darkraven8103 the truth that they already had a much better plane then the arrow flying? Namely the F-4 Phantom?
@@gocatoon4591 Nope, the truth is America is a fucking virus that needs to be eradicated from our fucking business.
@@darkraven8103 70 years ago ... yes 70 years ago that is some grudge - lol
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come on american air force military service...
american company can make many more better faster Avro Arrow AF-105
Ironic that is political movement US goverment intervention this project to be failed because avro arrow canada is leap technolgy aviation jet fighter better than US
How did America intervene, specifically? Also, how was Arrow a leap over the F-106 and the Phantom?
@@winternow2242 Crickets, lol.
As a Canadian this hurts and ever since our government has gone to crap !! Our P.M. had the chance recently to bring it back but again he refused 🤬😡😠
30:41 Is exactly it, while amazing design achievement, it truly looks 20 years ahead of its time. It was too expensive to keep going. I find parallels in the Bombardier CS plane; brilliant plane that basically destroyed the company making it. Now its an Airbus 220. ⛷♥ 🍁