It's too tight - Fixing a Yeoleo R11 Frame with Undersized PF41 Bottom Bracket
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- čas přidán 17. 01. 2023
- A Mapdec Subscriber built this home build Yeoleo R11 Road bike project to us for a few finishing touches and some help with a sticky bottom bracket.
In the video we show you how we diagnose, fix and test the problem and argue if we should even have done the job at all.
Yeoleo R11: www.yoeleobike.com/collection...
@Hambini Bottom Bracket with extra cut out. www.hambini.com/product/bb86-...
@BBInfinite alternative www.bbinfinite.com/products/b...
The Hope BB PF 41 in question: www.hopetech.com/products/dri...
Hope PF Tool www.merlincycles.com/hope-pf4...
#bikemechanic #cycling #bottombracket #yoeleo #chinacycling #roadbikes - Sport
Thank you for sharing the video so that we can locate and address the problem quickly.
We pay much attention to our customer's feedback and feelings. To avoid the same problem from happening again, we are reviewing and improving the QC standards. It aims to help us provide the perfect products for all customers.
And we strived to provide our customers worldwide with better products and services all the way. Thank you for your support! ☺
Thank you for watching, and seeing our customer got the bike they dreamed of.
I am the owner of the bike and have contacted @YOELEO about this issue. I have also sent them the link to the video. I will keep you all updated on what they say/do. Cheers.
Having contacted @YOELEO about the BB issue, I am here with an update and their response so far. They have offered me 2 options. 1. Compensation for the work/repair/build carried out on this frame by mapdec, plus an extended warranty up to 6 years (it came with 3) or option 2. A brand new frame.
I have notified them I will accept the compensation for the work carried out by mapdec with the extended warranty. and have sent them the invoice from mapdec (£125). The lady I am speaking to (Linda) is awaiting approval for the payment from the relevant department.
I also mentioned having a zero setback seatpost option would be good, they have informed me they have an updated seatpost with zero setback and an anti slip surface and are going to send me one free of charge. Fair play to Yoeleo, I am impressed with their response so far and their efforts to sort the situation.
This should silence a few naysayers.
Will follow up on this and confirm the result.
Cheers.
Thanks for the update.
Are you happy with the bike , few months later ? I m looking at their G21 frame for gravel
@@Kamiudalan1489 Yes. It's got me around my first two sportives, 69 miles and 113 miles without a glitch. I do a lot of climbing and the bike rides well. Minor BB issue aside, it's a great bike. Also if you do have any problems or questions, yoeleo are very responsive to emails and will help you out. Pretty confident I ended up with a better quality frame than what some of the big brands out there offer, while asking for far more money. Hambini has looked under that rock. It was between a winspace slc 2.0 or the R11. No buyers remorse.
A press fit BB used to be my only deal breaker when looking at a new frame, but now the bike industry has added cables through the headset to that.
I've had multiple bikes with a press fit BB. I currently have two. They have never been an issue at all. The only drawback is that they are a pain to service.
had more issues with non faced threaded and/or unaligned threads....
Pressfit is still the king for any bearings that take load.....
One idea for a future video - what should you do when you get a new frame BEFORE building it up to see if it should get sent back to the manufacturer? How to check BB alignment/roundness, dropout alignment, disc brake mount tolerances, etc. Maybe also what to check if you get a complete bike....
Haha. We did that! The brand we featured got legal to remove it!
@@Mapdec Thats the cycle industry all over. The quality standards are awful for the price these big brands charge.
@@TheLazyGarden3r almost criminal.
My co-passion with bikes, is tools -- especially for bikes. This channel is hands down the best at showing really what I consider to be really intelligent and proper usage of the latter on the former. I learn a lot of really novel techniques here, and as a tool junkie about gaps in my workshop setup. I've absolutely got to get some layout dye now for interference testing!
Thank you.
Wow this guy knows his shit. I also have a Yoleo R11. I'm pretty happy with it. I hear creaks here and there but nothing major.
🙏
You had the BB looked at? Mine never creaks.
@@TheMoodyedge it started recently. I think bb is the cause too. I put it together myself 😑
@@TheMoodyedge well you have a fancy bottom bracket and mine was 25 dollars.
@@cisdolce Not that fancy really. Spins better now it's bedded in anyway. Yours may have some similar issue that needs sorted / sanded which would make it fit better. Yoeleo BBs can be a little undersized.
I'm going through the same process. A 2014 Giant Carbon Defy Adv SL and a 2022 Basso Carbon Venta. Both have a 41mm sizing but only have a existing 40.6 to 40.7mm diameter shell. I spent $1000's of dollars only to find that almost every bike frame should have a Certificate of compliance that the dimensions of the BB are true. At least now I know that when I talked to my bike shop I bought from frame from that they aren't as good in their skills as I had first imagined. This was an awesome video, only wish I had seen it 2 yrs ago. I'm buying that reaming tool and thankfully have the attachments to make sure it will be aligned as was declared. Oh I found that reaming tool with no problem. Thank you Mapdec..
I hope it all works out right, the owner has put his/her hard earned into this bike. The warranties on these are about as good as the ones from the local Takeaway!
Wow fantastic job.
Thank you Greg
In Switzerland there is a brand ARC8 cost not far more than Yoeleo and BB is BSA I have friends and they are very happy
Myself I stay with older bikes with threaded BB no issues at all (Casati )
Many thanks. And a plug for Carbonda carbon frames. Just received a 1056 with BSA BB. Cheaper than Yeoleo and other Chinese name brand frames, but very good quality. Perfect alignment with a Praxis M30 crank.
Thanks for sharing Ian
Just in case anyone sees this, an FYI. Thesis (and to their credit are completely open about it) procures their gravel frames from Carbonda. They're not a straight mold as they have some modifications on the Thesis forks. But, just to give a known brand face to the frames Carbonda makes.
Love love love my carbonda gravel bike!! I've put that thing through hell on my local trails and it just keeps going. When I finally build a full suspension mountain bike, I will surely purchase the frame from them.
I came really close to ordering one of their gravel frames. Glad to know you had good experience
Had to do the same with my custom made Italian hard tail (J-emm - S-Flex), frame was heavily undersized, Oval and going through the BB's every 3 months...I used a torch instead of the blue stuff..a small problem with this method is that it only gets the hole round and bigger but does not improve the Drive and NDS side alignment, so the bearings could feel fine without a crank, but when installed, there is a lot of resistance as the bearings truing to fight the misalignment (In my case I was lucky and don't need to keep buying BB's) Great video as always, not many people talk about this very common issue! Thank you!
Thanks. I think I did discuss the alignment issue a bit. Hope it was enough.
@@Mapdec I just left the comment before making it to the end of the video xD
Great job, not the perfect spin but that's as good as it can get with most bikes nowadays, only time I got a free spinning crank was when I used one piece BSA adapter for PF30.
if Over Engineering had a son, it would be this BB design.
Paul thanks for showing a real life case of typical frame issues and what that means for both customer and workshop. Should you have had to do it ? Of course not it’s the manufacturers responsibility. Did you do the right thing in trying to look after your customer ? IMO Yes provided you felt happy with the situation presented.
Fully understandable why your customer chose this frame, provided it’s accompanied by a sense of realism that (as with all frames) it may not be to spec (as this one wasn’t). Then it becomes a question of degree of variance and whether a fix can / or ought to be attempted. In the circumstances you describe and China being remote recognisable why the customer wanted UK fettling.
In terms of a fix the Rolls Royce solution is a custom made BB to fit the frame discrepancies but excellent explanation why that was not the customer’s chosen route in this case.
In terms of the fix you conducted, careful step by step approach ending in a good outcome, as you say that would be different if the frame is also out of plane (either canted apertures or L/R offset apertures) as opposed to slightly a undersized hole, which was capable of correction. Very wise to remove minimal material by repeated micro steps having constantly measured both position and extent. Always a theoretical risk that it’s possible to breach the carbon layer if sanded too aggressively (bit like sand through seen on over aggressive paint removal from carbon frames). However in real terms there’s plenty of material thickness in the BB (unlike a frame tube) and moreover from what you described the apertures would become oversize before there was any risk to the integrity of the material. Personally the use of a reamer, similar to used on metal frames, would be a non-starter for me.
Finally providing it’s not breaching confidentiality, curious to know if the customer signed a record of the work undertaken, it’s basis of being undertaken and disclaimer / release for yourself, to be kept in your workshop records.
All round a great example to all of how to approach a delicate situation ,and providing circumstances allow, do your best for your customers. Chapeau to you 👏👏👏
Thanks Kevin. Disclaimers are pretty pointless. We wouldn’t have done the job unless we were confident. If we had made a mistake it would get resolved. The technique we used is similar to how factories finish carbon, just without industrial tooling.
@@Mapdec Thanks Paul great answer, and bit more education for me. All the best 👍
Check out the tool in the Rides of Japan video called "Pressfit without violence", should be 30-40€ on the well-known Chinese web store. You can press out bearings or cups without the need to hammer. Also, I would use a little bit of water or WD-40 during the sanding process.
The white cloth you see is very wet. Thanks for the note. I’ll take a look. We have quite a range of pullers, but those hope BB have hardly anything to get a tool on.
No water, no wd40.
Use hand sanitiser GEL!
Especially when cutting steerer's, just pump some squirts in and around
That white cloth is soaking wet. Keeps the dust down.
Some factory at some point is going to solve this by making all the surfaces a bit smaller and then reaming them all out to make sure they're right. Then the price of it is passed onto the customer who is happy to be getting something that works. That would be one way of doing it, but no-one's doing it for some reason.
Aye. It’s not hard. Bolt frame down, pass a reamer through the whole thing. Some brands do this. I can’t fathom why so many don’t.
Thanks Paul.As thorough & detailed as ever,and many of my unresolved engineering questions about carbon frames answered.The bottom bracket is the heart of any bike,and It beats me where the pride in the product,(as evidenced historically in lightweight English steel frames) has gone nowadays.Why the frame is not built around maintaining absolute accuracy at the BB in the first place,given the consumer cost,is a sin.Many many thanks for all your videos.
1:02 you can put a thread and cup inside this tool, at least for 1 side.
Spray co2 or deodorant on the bearings to freeze shrink them first. You can get them frosty and pull them out with fingers
What bore micrometer do you all recommend? I'm starting to see more pf41 in and around my shop (canyons mostly) and want to make sure I can make the right disgnoses
Good fix i am sure you are happy the press fit nightmares are comming to an end at least with new builds.
Hey there, great video like all the other ones, one question I have is what issuse have you had regarding BBinfinty stuff, if you don't mind me asking?
Some models are not that rigid and need a lot more care than you expect when fitting. Sometimes bearings can be very hard to remove. They are the only ones making a pf41 to dub one piece and you can see why. The system needs a lot of careful installation.
I wonder what was the story behind purchasing Hope BB. People see the original doesn't spin well and expect the expensive one made to the same tolerances woud fix it?🤔
Btw, another solution was to spec C3 bearings with bigger clearance. They are widely available and only marginally more expensive than regular CN. Fitting into, say, FSA cups must be the most budget option, probably even "bearings, BB, work" being cheaper than Hope bb alone.
I think a lot of that is correct. These bearings are C3 as far as I could discover.
What did you think of the overall quality of the frame, paint, dropouts, etc.,? Thanks
I didn't look too closely as I didn't. want to remove all the cables to get access. The brake mounts looked ok, but the customer has just called to complain of brakes rubbing on the first ride, so we will check when it comes back. We have to balance thoroughness with labour time.
If the manufacturer would just take the extra step to bond an anodized alloy sleeve in the BB then ream it we'd have no issues.
But will the glue fail before the carbon fails is the question. Because that 2mm carbon wall can't stay true forever, its a wet pooling area, we pressed aluminium cups in there even though shimano use nylon for a reason. Eventually the cathode will eat the carbon and the problems will rear themselves.
But any rock strikes, chips + UV + water and ice will remove the bearings tolerance in the carbon BB. Bonded alloy sleeve can be serviced indefinitely
A very fine point. The Nylon Shimano units really are better than most believe.
@janeblogs324 bonded / reamed anodised metal insert agree effective and obvious solution. Similar (bonded aluminium initially then replaced by titanium insert, both machine threaded to accept external BB cups on C40, C50 etc). A lasting solution identified in mid 1990’s and used extensively into 2000’s onwards. No issues with glue de-bonding on bikes now 25 yrs +. But Ti replaced aluminium to side step aluminium oxidisation which could force a de-bonding by expansion ,white powder. Reason they won’t do it (although no brainer they should) is additional time, cost and the mindset by certain big manufacturers that it doesn’t matter as they’ll sell that bike regardless. A sad reflection on bike production in last 5-10 years.
Where can you buy the bottom bracket gauges? I think you named Praxis, but I can't find them.
From Upgrade bikes. Been out of stock since 2020. They really should sell them with that hope BB tool etc.
what do you think of the wheels manufacturing bbs?
They solve compatibility problems at a reasonable price. Thats about all.
I've had one fail, I put one in a Cannondale CAAD12 frame so I could put Shimano cracks in, but the threads in the centre failed before I got to installation torque. It was replaced for free but I didn't do the replacement up very tight. It did work, but I wouldn't buy again.
I think Shimanos' dealers' manual recommends torquing up the crank bolts one 8th of a turn each time, alternating between them until the 12-14Nm are reached on both bolts - do you think that is overly complicated in real life?
No. It’s about what we do. Just use a normal hex until it gets close. Check and re check with torque for the last 3-4 turns.
No it's a standard procedure for a two bolt pinch retention system. The procedure comes from outside the bike industry and is a best practice. I've used since Shimano came out with the octilink crank.
This doesn't really have anything to do with the video, but I'm curious how much your shop charges to do a whole bike build. When I built mine last summer, my local shops were quoting anywhere between $350-600 (in California). Do you think that's a reasonable price?
For a bunch of fresh parts it’s £140. We might ask for more if there is correction work like in this video to do, or if wheels are built too.
$350~600? for a bike build?????? That's bloody outrageous, pure rip-off buddy, stay away from such a shop. I live in Luxembourg where things are usually more expensive than other countries, still entire bike build from scratch is between 150~225 euros depending on exact hours spent. (usually 2~3.5 hrs, takes little longer for full internal hydraulic mechanical groupset, little cheaper for wireless set up such as Sram Etap, di2 is more expensive than Sram for more cabling work)
@@alexyounghunlee I live in an incredibly expensive area in California and all the shops here charge crazy hourly rates. I'm glad that I wasn't wrong to think those prices were outrageous. I ended up doing most of it myself and paying a friend to finish it.
I’ve seen so many people have problems with Yoeleo. Their customer service is terrible, and the quality seems to vary immensely.
Their QC consistency is the main issue I guess. I have Yoeleo wheels since 2015 and it still running well really satisfied with it. Planning to take R11 Disc too. Hope this just one issue which not represent the whole product line.
Love Hope products..Great respect for Hambini also. Would say though..whilst a perfect,endless spin is great..fact is for most folk who aren’t riding for pro tour team then it makes no difference to ones 30km average. So long as bearings are not compressed or off square,much of the resistance is from rubber seals anyway. But what does suck,in my humble opinion,having been around Road Racing in 1970’s..Mountain bike development through the 80’s..right through to today’s ,largely made in China Carbon ‘ very overpriced ‘ Mainstream Brands,can only conclude. BIKE COMPONENTS were better made and lasted far longer,with less issues 40 or 50 years ago. I rode Campag Nuovo Record for years and hubs,bottom brackets perfect. In the mid 1980’s riding my Cannondale MTB with Sun Tour sealed bearings ..just didn’t wear out! So ???
Totally, it is the drive for light weight and cheap that has got us into this pickle. Back in those days, you got the components you were given and started drilling holes in them.
I kind of old and you are pretty much right. What made us move on from those bikes was advancements or changes. Not the bikes wearing out. What I think I miss the most is being able to just replace parts as you wanted or needed. Now everything is proprietary.
GRX crank going in. Getting ready for the Fred Whitton ?
I think so.
@markoliver6237 Correct 👍
@@TheMoodyedge I thought so, I’ve actually just done the same with a 34 cassette. I was lucky enough to get a place on the Fred with my wife. Therefore I’ve had to buy to 2 Grx cranks !
@@markoliver6237 Good call. I started road riding in July 2022, so I'm in at the deep end signing up for this. Given what I know about the route, suitable gears are essential. 48-31 with a 11-34 will probably be the best component decision I have made on this build 🤔🤞👍I'm determind not to walk even 1 yard of that course. Walking is cheating😆 Good luck!
@@TheMoodyedge Good luck. BTW there is no shame in walking bits of Hard knot 👍
What a complicated BB. Those warranties are not worth the hassle.
You forgot to say “Hello Hambini Fans”……is the pen working?
Eek.
Is that a pressfit bottom bracket that you screw together after the fact - so that it can’t wobble out.
If so that’s so “belt and braces” - you have to love Hope - trying to fix the sh1tty engineering of other companies with good old fashioned threads!
It is to try and force some level of alignment rather than hold it together
Very informative video. Can you share what shell diameter would you consider installing a shimano pressfit without the need to sand (as these have a bit more give than metal BBs)? Would this also be 40.95mm or would you be ok with something like 40.85mm? Asking because I have a brand new frame from a manufacturer (very popular B2C brand) that is telling me they have measured my frame at 40.82 (DS) and 40.85 (NDS) and that's within their tolerance to install a BB.
That is way too small. That is not within the PF41 standards from Shimano or SRAM. It might be their standard and if so they need to make a BB to match it. PF41 is set by Shimano in the frame fit specifications.
@@Mapdec thank you for your quick response. I think manufacturers get away with undersizing to a point because I can only see "nominal 41mm" when I google and can't find any specification doc indicating the +/- tolerance to install these PF41 BBs.
I did try to find something from Shimano specifying the tolerance but no luck.
@@Mapdec Shimano washing their hands from their own standard: "Due to variations in material properties and the structure of bicycle bottom bracket shells, SHIMANO
does not have recommendation on the frame dimension that is the inner diameter of bottom bracket hanger. Therefore, please study and check it’s quality. SHIMANO does not guarantee the fitting quality between frame and bottom bracket unit. SHIMANO guarantees the outer diameter of bottom
bracket which is ø41.00-41.07mm."
@@claudiolima224 it’s in a frame fit spec document that goes to frame builders. The sram version is readily available, but the Shimano one seems to only go to a secret society. I have a copy in the workshop after lots of begging.
Why not a shimano bb? Ultegra or dura ace, I have had zero problems with them, spins great and they are very cheap.
I am not sure. In this case they would have likely worked better than the Hope one. The Nylon casing can mask more inconsistencies. However this was very undersized
@@Mapdec yes, of course the frame was wrong. Shimano understands that frames are crap and they make the best of it 😄
Yeah. I guess that’s one way of looking at it
8:08 Isn't that repaired bb spinning bad? if you call it good, then my bb30 spins pretty good compared to that.
I'm not an expert on the subject, only asking for a comparison.
It’s what we would expect. Sometimes they are better if your lucky enough to have perfect alignment
@@Mapdec Thank you for your answer. I like your videos :)
@@Mapdec A rather sad and disturbing conclusion to this debacle🤔
I was looking for a Hambini quality spin. How much is the difference between a Praxis and a Hambini bb?
Did spin like an Hambini BB 🤷🏻♂️
Not quite. Spins more like a Shimano. Before it hardly turned.
Not going to lie, I was expecting a 5yo quality spin. Still, my Ultegra bsa bb spins just like this Praxis 😑
You definitely are working some magic on this Bottom bracket. It's great to see how meticulous you are.
Shame to hear this agro', For 2 yrs I was the UK representative and I can honestly say I only ever had one occasion where the bb was slightly out. I've owned all the Yoeleo frames R11, R12 and G21 (ironically I'm building the current G21 as I watch this out of curiosity). But as you have experienced, Yoeleo has a good customer service team.
I have long considered warrantees a worthless waste of money. Just don't buy anything Girard had anything to do with or that awful frame the maker replaced with as bad an example. Hambini ran out of invectives for that one! It's good someone is taking a page from Hambini and did the handwork to correct the problem. Oversized would have been a different experience! As stated, a one piece cartridge bb would have been better, but there is probably 2/3 improvement with your attention to detail. Better than acceptable now.
Good summary David. Oversized would defo be worth the return to Yeoleo.
BB86 is still ok - but admit it‘s a pain to get right with VB, SP, etc & CO. As I do it on my own, it‘s fine - but actually if you don‘t have the Tools etc. - better buy from a ‚brands‘ like Ridley, Stevens etc who get their frames from same OEMs but ensure QC and warranty. So called premium brands, just would say it‘s not worth the price factor. But just my 5 cents…of you know, who‘s (Chinese, taiwanese manufacturers) producing for which brand
Trying to figure out your initials. I think I would call it HO, HA, VO etc
@@Mapdec may you find out. Former Swiss pro in the 90s, but keen to stay under the radar 😉 happy to connect offline if you like. Appreciate your work a lot btw. Cheers mate
Sure. You can DM on Insta, TikTok etc. Thanks.
So Chinese frame manufacturers qc can be as bad as many other brands out there - and it'll no doubt be fun and games trying to get refunds from them 🤔
Hopefully we will keep you informed.
What? I thought Yeoleo only shipped out perfect frames!
Funny, I think with the hassle and failures from a lot of the 'western brands' I feel we have come to expect perfection from the higher end Chinese brands.
Most Chinese bikes are with home mechanics and things like this are just not known about or chalked up as ‘oh well it was cheap’
@@Mapdec suppose so, I paid an extra £30 for a painted track frame as I didn't have time to spray it.......I got a £30 paint job 🙈 it was shocking 🤣😂 you are right, you just deal with it.
Should have ordered a hambini
hambini makes a frame and the entire cycle industry would ream him ad infinitum
@@mrndlprsnr Hambini knows he's not the ideal guy to make a bike and he's addressed that.
I think I covered that.
Exactly these Chinese warranties are no good.
Sooooo I better get a look 765 I guess ^^. BTW I had a yoeleo c 50 wheelset and it exploded with 4 bars... no warranty what so ever. They offered me a new rim and not a new wheel...running zipp 303s now since 25000km
Makes you wonder how many are riding around with poorly fitted bottom brackets and headsets.
Nearly everyone
Without this "quality" bikes you wouldn't have much to do...
Oh we have plenty to keep us busy. Most bike shops would just shove another BB in there and blame the rider for it wearing out so fast.
8:10 I mean... ok...ish? maybe? My one piece fauber crank from the 80s spin much better than that.
it's likely that it's also suffering from misalignment.
Yes. I hope I covered that in the end section
@@Mapdec as long as the customer is in on your train of thought, I think you did a good job.
Obviously the carbon is damaged or was manufactured very low-quality.
Just not fully finished at it should be.
But wait, someone (not you) on the internet told me Chinese frames are the greatest thing ever and were going to DESTROY the western market...
At any rate, thanks for being a good example of what a shop of real mechanics is like, as opposed to those with wrenches just slapping parts on.
Lol. Thanks C Johnson.
Wheels Manufacturer BBs work with any frame thread together design is awesome no issues at all in all the frames I’ve used including YOELEO, plain and simple!!!!!
Don’t use PF style BBS there junk.
Would be exactly the same with a wheels one. Check your frames, and No a carbon bike must be the right size, if it isn’t, it’s wrong and needs to be returned or fixed. A wheels manufacturing unit would be the exact same tight fit.