The Isma'ilis and The Problem of Representation
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- čas přidán 21. 04. 2019
- In this episode I discuss the issue of representation - who gets to represent a religion? Why? and how should we discuss it critically today?
The discussion consists mainly of the example of the Isma'ili Muslims, whose doctrines and ideas have often differed dramatically from that of the mainstream.
A lot of the information on the Ismaili view of the Qu'ran came from the research of Khalil Andani, whom I forgot to mention in the video. Check out his channel here: / ismailignosis
This young man is worth his weight in gold. His knowledge is vast, and his presentation unbiased and fluent without any superfluous data. He is better than any orthodox Sunni or Shia Maulavi who puts on airs of knowledge and tries to persuade listeners rather than transmit information. Religion should be taught as a subject, and not in order to proselytize any particular faith; and he is teaching better than anyone else through his lectures. I have learnt so much from the series he is making.
Cargo cult basically
Such an Ismaili position hhhah … are you actually asking for truth?!
@@abdullahshahj7194 "The Wahhabi Myth" by Haneef James Oliver
@@MrHermes111 How is saying "you should explain what a different sect is about and their point of view before shitting on it and saying why it sucks" an Ismaili thing? Whenever I try to look up info about any view opposing the orthodox one in islam I get some imam telling me they are the worst and will burn in hell before explaining what it is.
@@varun76890 totally agree with you. That should be the standard in Islam. Until we open up to the fact that we do not know, we will never know.
A point to note: Shias also have 5 prayers but they choose to combine the 2nd and the 3rd, and the 4th and the 5th. This is why they pray 3 times a day.
Yes, and many Shias (like myself) do not combine the prayers and pray at 5 times.
@Ayesha Binte Halala I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Nor is any muslim required to know the answers to these questions.
As a muslim, my primary concern should be to live my life to the best of my ability in complete submission to God in accordance with the duties obligated upon me by God (Allah SWT) through His beloved prophet Mohammad (SAW). Because, as a muslim, I know for a fact that I will be held accountable for my deeds (actions) in this life on the day of Judgement.
Quran mentions 3 by name similar to Torah.
Salat Al Fajr, Salat Al Wusta and Salat Al Isha. (24:58 & 2:238)
Ahmed Dakhlallah,
sunnah.com/muslim/6/59
Shi'a is right end of story.
I spent some time with Ismailis in North Pakistan, they were a really interesting and kind group of people who really valued education and equality.
Yup They are Well Educated and Inspirational.
We are telling about praying. And they don t do it. I know they help each other, put money together...
@@supermedia7978 AOA
www.theislamicmonthly.com/understanding-ismaili-muslim-theology-practice/
@@HassanUmer but they don t pray like the other muslim
@@supermedia7978 lol ab iska jwab to sirf ismaili de skta mein khud ahle sunnat ka hu ❣️
You explain complex issues with such simplicity. It's amazing! Thank you
czcams.com/video/6r9JU-Y2Xn4/video.html
Salaam Filip,
I felt so compelled to let you know that your video has moved me immensely and that the content of your video has captivated my mind.
Many thanks,
xx
Spent almost 9 months with the Ismailis in Tajikistan and can say they are lovely people, have a interesting faith, a generous imam and beautiful art.
They are very tiny minority. Even if even 10% of population of the world is like them then this world would be a better place .
Thanks
czcams.com/video/6r9JU-Y2Xn4/video.html
Ismailis are deviants may Allah guide them to Islam.
Thank you for your compliment . Hello from Tajikistan 🇹🇯
Thank you very much young man for this great lecture on Ismail-ism and keep it up with this good work of yours!
Great and thorough insight! Greetings from Ismaili of Central Asia
YA Ali Madad
Ya Ali madad brother from India🇮🇳
Allahu Akbar.
There is no God but Allah and Muhammad PBHU is his last messenger.
Everything else is later innovation and bidaa (polytheism).
May Allah SWT guide you to the right path of Quran and Sunnah.
@@manjurhassan7703 there is no right way except following Islam at first so keep your praying to yourself
Really impressed by the depth of your knowledge.
Well researched and amazingly articulated.
Very authentic source used for research too !
Kudos !
I am new to your channel and am really impressed by your knowledge and unbiased delivery. Thank you.
Great video. Loved your research, clarity of the ideas and flow of presentation. Keep up the good work.
By far, one of your most interesting and informative talks. I am impressed. Thank you.
This is the best so far good discussion about Islam even I heard. Good work.
at around 18:20 you talk about explaining the development of Islamic Orthodoxy. PLEASE do make a video on it! Great content!
I very much enjoy your openess and objective study and presention on different interpretations of Islamic Faith.
Well done! Thanks for making this kind of videos. Your words are coherent and very clear.
the unbiased, pure and distilled knowlede in this man's videos as far more than any mulla maulvi i've known. Religion should be imparted as unbiased facts and reasons, and it should be left to listening how to incorporate that in their life.
As usual a thought provoking and very eloquently presented explaination
Have decided to listen to at least one presentation by you daily
Thank you
Stay Blessed
czcams.com/video/6r9JU-Y2Xn4/video.html
(*disclaimer: I'm an Ismaili, this is in to response to all comments calling my faith deviant, wrong, or anything similar. Always remember, Allah loves you.*): Allah loves all of his creations. If Allah did not want us to choose how we serve, worship, and love him then why give us reason, logic, knowledge, and life? Allah's creations are no deviants, many of us are just caught up in our faith we forget the truth of Allah: He loves us all, no matter what. It's what makes Allah truly divine.
What the point of religion if we csn choose anything.. complete nonsensical logic..
@@kindlyafroditi9204 you just answered your own question.
@@MsKnowitall how?? Its a cult based on lies and desires ismailis thats a fact throughout the fact established
Allah does not love bidah or shirk. Your religion is a mess please come back to the truth
Well, the word deviant itself is very tricky. Even among the Hanafi school of thought within Sunni Islam , the Barelvis and Deobandis consider each other deviant.
Salafis consider all the other sects deviant ( some are lesser , others are more deviant , according to them).
I’m not an Islami or a Sunni or a Twelver . Being follower of a Sufi sect , I truly believe that Allah loves his creatures without any discrimination.
Religion is very dynamic and vibrant, engenders a multitude of outlooks about our social and political lives. In these days of Ramadan, I am very fond of your contents, learning a lot new about as well as refashioning of many religious subjects I think i know. One thing I would like to request you is to make a video on the Sunni firqa of islam and it's sub-sects. As an avid learner, it will be fascinating to have an acute historical account of the subject, as the subject is not a monolithic homogenous belief, as you said, but a multifaceted historical phenomenon.
You should do a video on Ismaili cosmology.
Amazing video. As an Ismaili this means a lot to me. Thank you so much for this!
Heretic
@@emkfenboi bruh
@@aamirhooda937 Bruh , you are a heretic fr.
@@emkfenboi
Proof of heretic-ism: worshiping devil
czcams.com/video/Qt_YTHeTE-I/video.html
@@danishvaliani3383 wow bruh ! you are a genius
Im Sunni and I totally 100% agree with al'Muizz about the revelation having to be "straightenned" or formed into some tangible applicable thing, because the pure revelatory intuition is very difficult to describe in words.. I also believe its the same function at work when a Poet is writing something beautiful but at a much greter scale. Also its the same function as Freud used to interperate dreams. And there is a Sahih Hadith in Imam Malik's Muwatta that the Prophet SAWS said "A good Dream from which you derive benefit is 1 fourtey-seventh of Prophethood"
I definitely do not agree that the Prophet "recieved it into his intellect", intellect is a tiny narrow little tool of the Soul.. That is almost an insult lol when God speaks he should shine his light on every branch of the Soul
Thank you again, so very informative.
I am a Dawoodi Bohra and this video is so very well explained! Good job!
I'm Nizari, and very much agree, faiths are much more diverse than we often appreciate: A wonderfully broad overview.
@Ayesha Jamal Halala ru by the answer you going to decide ? Which one is the right path , how about the Animal are they following Right Allah ru sure ? Something is wrong up there 👆 in ur head , laughing 😆 reading ur questions by the way
I'm nizari
I am Muslim
@@allee3476 u r sunni . now cry
Your channel introduces a very well briefed presentation, that suggests digging farther in research regarding religion in general. Though, to know well about a religion, especially Islam, one have to study the Holly Book of that faith (Qura’an in Islam).
And at least have a basic knowledge of the Hadiths and Sharia law. Best also to know some history. A person could spend their entire life learning about Islam and the various aspects of the Muslim world and still pass from this physical world ignorant. If one understands humility and that learning is a lifelong endeavor then you understand what I am trying to convey.
@@lorinapetranova2607 "The Wahhabi Myth" by Haneef James Oliver
@@Xaviergonzalez85 thanks for the recommendation. I am almost convinced that the early Saudi family sold their souls to the devil in order to maintain a monarchy. I get that probably is controversial but I'm just expressing my opinion based on study. Take care n stay healthy.
Thanks for brief introduction. I myself am an Ismaili muslim, many brothers comparing us to their own faith which is not fair as we know there are more then 72 secrets in Islam. That's because there are certainly differences. Brelvis and Devbandis within Sunny islam have also huge difference of opinion. So it's what it is chill out and get more informed about each other.
You from Hunza?
But why not just be a Muslim, without additional terms. Muslim by Quran and Most correct hadith. very simple., dont take islam from elders that create their own methods.
@@C4smoke there are many who reject hadiths.
@@maruf16khan on what basis? If you are a Muslim means you believe that Mohammed was gods messenger so you should at least try to follow his words that coincide with Quran to the best of your ability instead of following a random human and naming your religion after them. If you have doubt in the chain so that you think the hadith maybe didn't reach you correctly then go study science of hadiths and how delicate it is. Better than any journalist can imagine.
@@C4smoke not me bro, I am a sunni. I know how hadiths are graded and studied. I mean to say that there are many muslims that believe the hadiths have been corrupted, even the sahih ones. The shias too only believe in certain hadiths.
your arguments are very much valid.
Outstanding.
All religions emerged to solve problems. And all their denominations as well. For that, they should be graciously thanked and commended by all. Let the believers choose according to preference and respect the preferences of all.
But don't hurt the women.
That's all I humbly ask.
💙🙏
Not all but some of them did
Wow.... Great presentation
Thanks!
@@LetsTalkReligion 3:08
Greatings
Thank you for such nice video
If am not wrong Shia prayes 5 prayer
In 3 times. Unlike sunni prayes 5 prayer in 5 times.
But sunni allowes 5 prayers in 3 times in conditions of travelling(safar);rain(matr);khawf (fear/war). Also some allowes in another conditions like mordern day for surgeons etc.
You can search jam'u bayn Al salatayn.(combining of prayer)
Shia believes without reason 2 prayer can combine.
Note:sorry for my English. I'm not native speaker.
Wish you a good day.
I love your sayings, i like to say i am some sort of scholar and you are so always riggt 🙏🏽❤️
I consider myself a twelver shia but i believe a little bit of sunni and sufi influence has enter the twelvers culture , i personaly find some of the ismaili ideas so much appealing to my views of islam
Proud to be an ismaili Muslim. Thank you for sharing brother.
Salam. Great speaker great researcher indeed. Allah bless. From Bangladesh.
Guys i m ismali & i feel proud by reading comment section 😍😍
Thank you all for your lovely comments.
czcams.com/video/6r9JU-Y2Xn4/video.html
Where are you from bro i am İsmaili too
@@amirschwarzenegger4740 I am from India ..You ?
@@MR-nj2pq I'm from chitral Ismaili
@@ahsanvideos837 I have one question, what do Ismailis and twelvers think of each-other?
I am an Ismaili from India. Interesting information on my faith.
Some more information: Witness by sunni Ali is speaking Quran
czcams.com/video/GgrRZzQSCPI/video.html
Ghar wapsi bro
@@ThamizhanDaa1 come on man not here, pls.
@@maruf16khan Ghar wapsi is happening..
@@ThamizhanDaa1 if people wanna convert to hinduism or whatever I don't care. Please stop saying these stupid things everywhere.
Surah al maidah phrase 15 16 states Allah had left the light and book and the light still exist in human form but unidentified untill the close of qayamat.. Proud to be ismaili the straight path of islam
Can you please provide me with your academic name . I would like to follow your Re-legion Re-Search Articles. Endless thanks for your beautiful human energy.
Very relevant narrative in contemporary times.
Thank you for unbiased video
I am a Muslim but don’t follow any particular school of Islam for a while I have been reading and researching different sects of Islam by far Ismaili Muslims are the most in lighted and liberal Muslims I have came across if Ismailis were the majority of the Muslims instead of the Sunnis,Muslim society would have been most in lighted and educated people in the world.
u mean gay liberal and an imam that fiddles with women ?
What do you mean saying gay?
Not actually, our Muslim community suffering backwardness mainly cause of this "najdi project of Saudi " or ignorance towards the "importance of knowledge" emphasized in islam and many aren't even religious nowadays,,, or back then Muslims of saudi, Persia (well who follow sunni islam) are leading world in science,philosophy and all subjects,architecture and even in spirituality (sufis), the main cause of backwardness is fall of caliphate and rise of Wahabi ideology and many politicalmovements in the reign of britishers.... even there is a hadith, beloved prophet (S.A.W) said on salman-al-farsi r.a(persian) -: "if knowledge were suspended in the highest part of heavens the people of his community (persians) would attain it... and the Golden Era of islam is the proof.... Persians or golden Era of islam did so much for islam and in my thought true follower of islam as well.... wahhabism and fall of caliphate cause a biggest backlash in our society... but whatever, I don't believe in denominations that we've made , we are only Muslims and our Lord Allah s.w.t, Our Basics, our Messenger is all same,just we all have different opinions and that's a natural thing.
To be fair majority of muslims are only sunni on paper . I have studied sunni schools a bit and i realized many sunnis are not actually sunnis . They are just neutral muslims (they themselves think sunni means neutral muslim)
You are saying you are Muslim without knowing anything? In Islam knowledge is first then practice. Try to learn more.
Even if half of muslims are as enlightened as Ismailis this world would be a better place to live in. They donate for the social welfare of the humanity rising above their caste & cutting across region/ religious belief .
Hell no, we like putting the fear of God in to the west
How come Ismailis are "enlightened"? How do you define that word?
@@bilalrahman2786 the west doesn't fear your non existent God. They fear what you delusional bunch might do to the great secular enlightenment values that built the west.
@@Ahmed-ef6ss "The great secular enlightenment values"
Lol 😆 🤣 😂 and what values are those. The most nuclear weapons, the most weapons made and sold, the most deaths caused directly and indirectly I can keep going. Just because you chose to turn a blind eye to what your values really stand for doesn't make it right.
@@bilalrahman2786 the values stand for great things. Not following what the values represent does not mean the values are flawed.
I have read and compared the books that Swedish High school pupils have in comparative religion and the explanations offered in them feel largely simplistic and monolithic. Others might argue that is not the aim of the course to give specialised knowledge but I think the books give a biased and sometimes confusing view of the religions. Once I wanted to become a high school teacher but reading those made me feel unmotivated. What do you think? How should a high school book in religion be written?
You're right, much of the school books on religion is very simplified. But at the same time, they have to be. I'm sure there's a balance that can be reached somehow. For example, some books tend to portray religion as being in the past. In one it said "Muslims prayed five times a day" which seems to forget that they still do. That could be a good start, by showing how religion is something that is alive and relevant today, not just the past.
@@LetsTalkReligion I have taught "World Religions" for ten years at the college level, which might (?) be a little more sophisticated than a high school? But still, it's a lot to pack into only 16 weeks. I always teach at least a taste on some of the many variations within any one religion, and whenever my students say something like, "What do Hindus believe?" I'll say, "They believe many different things." Even college students still tend to view religions as a monolith, but I do my best to show them that no religion is static, and there have been many variations throughout time and place. Nevertheless, while there are many forms of Islam, it is also definitely possible to distinguish them from the many forms of Christianity. There are core elements that are present, although the interpretation of those elements vary widely.
Thank you for representing as in a right way
Hi, have been really enjoying your vids. Would you be able todo a video on the very early sect which existed during the schism. I think the group was called Al-Wadud or something like that. Its a group that believed that religious judgement to God. Thank you
The Murjiah?
@@sifatraihan3455 Sounds like them. Thanks
Beautifully explained. The Ismaili may well have felt outrage. Being atheist agnostic I also want to feel outrage at those who claim to be prophets of god..but yet it softens to pure incredulity. I appreciate the wisdom and research on your channel. Thank you
🙄
15:30 Light is metaphor for clarity, understanding as opposed to turbidity.
Not just mere intellectual clarity though:)
To clarify on the Ismaili pillars, their version of zakat is “dasond” in which funds are given to their one imam as opposed to decentralized forms of charity.
There was a time not many years ago where I was held in thrall of Islam, the Ismaili school especially. It was and remains the perfect religion for my temperament and attitude. However, as i live in a predominately Protestant Christian part of the U.S., it was very difficult to get the support and community I needed. Wish this video had been around at the time.
Proud to be ismaili.... Light upon light body decays but noor shines time after time
I love this video. You explained so concisely what Muslims of Sunni orthodoxy ought to understand. There are so many issues today with peoples understanding of the development of Sunni orthodoxy; somehow most are under the illusion that the Quran has been preserved letter for letter since the time of the Prophet Mohammed, that Islam as we have it today, is the Islam which the prophet left for us. Alas it is not.
awesome!!!!
I would like to say that I find your channel and videos simply illuminating!
I am a converted Muslim, initiated into Islam by a Burhaniya member and somebody who later became a Quranite. I quickly moved into a modern Salafi school of thought, the one based predominantly on a lineage of Saudi state scholars. After spending quite some years in this domain, I felt disenchanted with this religious philosophy and the state of my own moral and spiritual person which started my 'descent' into agnosticism and secular political ideology.
Feeling again disappointed with my highly secularized and degenerated spirituality together with a broken private life, I longed for a way to reconcile with religion and I slowly migrated back to Sunni Islam. This time a version of Islam that is more tempered between taqlid, ijtihad, tawasuf, kalam, modernism, traditionalism, philosophy, rationalism, (personal) spirituality, pragmatism, history, politics, comparative religion and any other way that is or will be important to me.
And I am now a quite more happier and balanced Muslim in both Western and Muslim pluralistic dimensions. And to actually get an understanding of all of the aforementioned concepts in a broader, open minded and academic context, I have in part your video's to thank for that!
From a Sufi, to a Salafi Muslim, to a Salafi-resenting agnostic, and after a long time back to being a Muslim with an open mind to both Sufism and Salafism and many more interpretations and ways in Islam and other religions and philosophies for that matter. Again thank you for your great channel!
Alhamdulillah thanks for sharing your journey, Allah has indeed guided u and being a little open minded is the best way to go
Hmm interesting 🙂🙂🤔... I am a muslim, but get a lot of information about islam through your videos... Yeah, because we tend to get information just about our own school of thought...
And turns out there are so many schools of thought/ sects with different approach on many stuff..
I guess we should respect each other believe.. 👍
Indeed brother, and when stick to our own school of thought, we tend to believe, it's US only.
@@budeelgroupllc6744 that's why you should read, the information presented here is nothing new and have been written about centuries ago even by Sunni Muslims, books brother Read then Read Then Read more.
All the muslim communities agree that ahmadis and Ismailis are not a part of islam
Peace be upon you Brother...
Thanks a lot for your research...
But just one correction : Shahada(proclamation of faith) is not a pillar but Eemaan(faith or belif) is the first pillar of Islam.
Can you do an episode about Qarmatians ?
The Shahada is really not one of the 5 or 7 pillars but the basis because it is the proclamation of faith. It is the ground where the Pillars will be founded. It holds the Pillars. Without it all that was established on it will collapse. I agree that the Shahada is the foundation of the Pillars and not one of he Pillars. By analogy where are you going to establish the pillars of your house, if it is not on the ground. Just like the Shahada which is the reason ( or ground) to establish your Pillars of Faith.
Please also cover the Zaydi Shia!
I am the 200th subscriber.. 😂
Yaaay! :D That's awesome. Wish I had some prize for you, but just know that I appreciate it a lot!
@@LetsTalkReligion Ah! You replied! Thats a prize..😃 Happy new Year and Good Luck with your youtube channel..
@@LetsTalkReligion hey i really like you to make a stream call discussion with a Ismaili scholar i know . HIs name is Khalil Andani . He's got a youtube channel too . You'll be surprised by his explanations.
@@akbarlakhani6624 Me and dr. Andani are familiar with each other. I admire his work a lot, might have him on the channel in the future when I'll do more stuff on Isma'ilism.
@@LetsTalkReligion you know to tell you the truth after the demise of the fatmid era all we ismailis wanted was to be left alone . That's why our leader is neutral on the politics . sure he's got some cases around him but every rich and influential person has things running around themselves . What people don't mention is that he got us out of sticky situation like our exile in Africa . The truth is all this fight over what religion is right or wrong ,the religious disputes we left that non sense decades ago , we just wanna be left alone .
Plus you'll be surprised that we're not just arab culture oriented . We adapt to the cultures and norms of the country we inhabit . As a nomad nation we've become more aware about the world . We still are a nation as in people in a single belief , we've got our own flag but we just don't limit ourselves to a single land mass .
I think the difference in thoughts (believes) is the beauty that Allah (SWT) has bestowed to humans. But such difference may not be the cause of conflict as it’s an entirely individual’s personal choice and business whom (s)he follows.
Your commentary is interesting until comparative definitions and explanations about a particular follower or a group. I think, leave it to the listeners for further research. Or else it’s bit confusing for a naive religious student like me to understand which is the unique sect out of 73, that will enter into Heaven.
What comparative definitions are you refering to?
The prophet died without leaving any successor and left it for the ummah and the council to decide. The Prophet did not chose a successor because later on it'll eventually lead to people selecting their own families as leaders and not people who are actually worthy to lead. This really happened during the Umayyad dynasty where the leadership was hereditary which led to alot of conflicts and problems that never existed before. Abubakar was chosen by the council and muslim Ummah and Abubakar fit every condition required for one to become a leader. Ali himself pledged allegiance to the first three Rashidun caliphs which clearly shows that the Shia have no real argument since the person they claim as the rightful heir pledged allegiance to the three caliphs himself without being forced.
Ali pledged allegiance for one reason: to prevent war within the Muslim world. Ali was the wisest among the caliphs.
Hi, I am sunni Arab.
In the sunni world the most thing that we take against shai is the saying that the imams can not do wrong.
In sunni islam every muslim is a sinner even the first caliphs and everybody.
I think this is the biggest issue between the tow branches.
And thank you for your research.
With love from Jordan❤.
And the sunni idea regarding the quraan is that the quraan comes from the knowledge of God thus can't be something created.
Interesting point, it is true that a central doctrine of shiism is the idea of the infallability of the imams.
Thanks for sharing!
@@LetsTalkReligion yes within Shi'ism this a central part of their faith the infallibility of the imaans.
Selam Kareem, the People of the Cloak (Ahlul Kisa) have been cleansed of sin according to the Holy Qur'an (33:33), The Ahlul Kisa were brought by the Prophet pbuh for the Mubahala.
The doors to the masjid were left unlocked after Allah swt decree in the Qur'an. I am from Bosnia and used to belong to the Hanafi madhab.
Selam
Not necessarily every Muslim is a sinner but can potentially sin because they are human; so no human being is infallible including imams, sheikhs, etc.
I have learned from this chanel, thanks for research. the portrait of Imam Ali you shown is not Imam Ali. that portrait is on iranian gold mints and merchandises. you can see a real discription of him in national museume of Turky
I would argue that actually you can limit the scope of an ideology instead of allowing later interpretations to anachronistically redefine its scope. IMO this is also the case with religions (here as a subset of ideology). The best that a scholar of a particular ideology can do is to interpret the ideas brought forth by the originator, and this interpretation shouldn't be viewed as a redefinition of that particular ideology, but merely as an interpretation. Taking this, no one but the originator have the full right of dictating what he/she meant. To explain the reason why I would argue so is as follows.
Suppose p is the originator of ideology P, to simplify discussion. The approach of scholars, q, r and s say, might all be different, and might even be contradictory. If p, q, r, s are all allowed to anachronistically redefine P, then P is contradictory, hence undermines the idea of p. What is left is to classify the approaches of interpretation, and call it as such. Assume q takes a literal approach, r takes logical approach, s takes correctional approach, or successors interpretation etc, then we allow q,r,s to be P', where P' is not strictly equivalent to P, but equivalent in some sense, say f(P') = P, where f is just a representation of an interpretation. Of course p is temporally and spatially limited, so we could argue that strict P as understood by p, is also limited. But different f's where P' intersects with P are subsets of P. It can be the case that for all x in P' implies x in P, it can also be the case that there exist x in P' such that x is not in P, and there can also be the case that for all x in P', x is not in P, that is a complete reformulation of an ideology. "Correct" then can be interpreted as these varying intersections and I would consider them a correct use of this particular adjective on elements of sets rather than sets. I would prefer quantitative terms to express P'-sets instead of "correct" or "wrong". Only in this sense that I disagree with your statement that ideologies are not monolithic.
In this particular discussion for example, you can say Islam is a set of beliefs, rulings, and rituals, on the domain of human experience, defined by Mohammad. Mohammad died, so the set is finite. The madhahib and manahij of scholars are ideologies that intersects with what Mohammad defined. Some have huge number of common elements, some have but few, but they all cannot anachronistically redefine what Mohammad came with. Which is why many of the fatwas and rulings ended by the term "Allah knows best".
Christianity for example is redefined throughout its history anachronistically. I'm not arguing that this is bad etc, but the study of christian jurisprudence or theology or christology in general will be warring claims rather than a study and will have limited validity as far as systematic study goes. It is better to say that todays interpretation is a set which might or might not intersect with the set of ideas that Jesus (the originator) had. Then do research on how the two sets intersect.
To wrap up, who represents an ideology? The analytically examined historical records of the originator. If the originator is dead, then no living scholar can rightly represent the ideology except as a flavour, or interpretation of the originator. The extent of the interpretation's intersection with the original in one sense or the other is then where scholars reside. Whether or not ideas exist throughout history says nothing about the original "creed" if you will, but rather the intersection as I mentioned.
Of course when the historical analysis is severely limited or the narrative analysis is rejected within some paradigm (isma'iliya's rejection of many narrators of hadiths for example) the scope of original set will shrink, and be can even be so small that many addition is required to form a coherent ideology. So it makes sense to annex new ideologies and claim that it is original. So for example Marx's manifesto alone is clearly not enough to form a coherent ideology, and it won't be fair to Marx if we say that Mao or Stalin represents his ideology by anachronistically redefine Marxism.
These are however only my opinion on the matter. I love your videos and I think you have a wonderful way of explaining these concepts. I look forward to enjoy more educational and intellectual videos from you. I'm sorry if its in any way offensive, and I hope you can see it as an attempt to open up some intellectual discussion.
My goodness, this has to be the best CZcams comment I've ever seen. I appreciate the kind words at the end, and I am not offended in any way. Quite the contrary actually, part of the reason why I make these videos is to open up discussions. You make some excellent points and I think we are in agreement for the most part; the point I was trying to make in the video was precisely your point that "no living scholar can rightly represent the ideology except as a flavor, or interpretation of the originator" and that this includes those scholars that represent what we would understand as "orthodoxy". My personal starting point is that religions are ultimately social constructs (without necessarily negating the validity of their teachings) and that, as you pointed out, in the case of Islam only Muhammad can truly know what he himself actually meant and any later attempts to understand what "Islam" is comes down to the interpretations of human beings.
The Isma'ilis felt like a good example (plus, I really wanted to make a video about them in any case) to show that an extreme minority group with wildly different opinions on some points are still based on (at least some) of the same sources, in this case the Qu'ran and the Prophet Muhammad, and to make the point that none of the different interpretations of those sources can claim with certainty to represent the original intent. That isn't to say that some interpretations may not be more closely aligned to this original intent, but there is no way of knowing for sure and therefore extreme generalizations should always be avoided. It is not a total critique of describing a religion by a certain set of beliefs or practices, indeed very few (if any) Muslims would disagree with the shahada for example, but I was trying to open up for a bit more nuanced and open discussion regarding representation and state my opinion that it is dangerous to make generalizations that don't keep this in mind.
I hope I didn't misunderstand your points, feel free to correct me if so :)
@@LetsTalkReligion Thank you for your response. I agree that Isma'ilis are in fact a good example of the point you're making (beside being an interesting interpretation in itself). And I'm very happy that my opinion is mostly aligned with what you're saying, (I saw that you're a scholar). Hoping to learn more from your videos. I have something that is almost always happens with religions and this "anomaly" if you will, bugs me TBH. That the originators, instead of coming up with something that's popular (in the sense of being appealing and acceptable by the population), they come up with something that is against the grain. In fact many of them come at a time of some form of popular "equilibrium" of hierarchies, just to disrupt these. I can see that these "ideological revolutions", for lack of better words, slowly become social norms, but they aren't initially so, at least for early christians and early muslims. Maybe in some future videos you can shed some light on these cases, because they are not the case with ideologies in general. Most ideologies already have some social basis when they started out, the originators are the mediums for the popular voices that are already there in ideologies in general. As far as religions go, at least to my reading, this has not been the case, and I have no idea how to reconcile this with my conviction that ideologies are social constructs. Maybe in one one of your future videos if you have the time and energy, you can shed some light on this. I'm very grateful for this video, very grateful for the kind reply, and I hope to learn more from this channel.
@@hotpeachtea3246 Interesting point! I would say that it is only partly true. Many of the "originators" like Muhammad or Jesus often come with an ideology or message that makes total sense if one view the historical context in which they appear. It is usually in hindsight that this picture of a radical, sudden change starts to be painted to give it more weight and to make a clear separation of "before/after". We can see the same with the Enlightenment in Europe often being depicted as this sudden turning point from ignorance to "light", while in reality it was a gradual process
I think in the case of many religions, this narrative is perhaps applied after the fact.
It is a very interesting subject for a video, might actually do that in the future, thanks!
Let's Talk Religion really amazing video. I am Ismaili myself and it’s really hard when people don’t really understand different sects of Islam
@@LetsTalkReligion thanks sir appreciated ♥️
bro do you know about prof allama naseer uddin hunzai? i would suggest you to read his books. he has written more than 150 books on imam including poetry "diwans" in 4 laguages.
I know about him yes :) I have a few of his writings in pdf form but haven't jumped in yet
@@LetsTalkReligion if you will study his books im sure you will understand ismailism in a better way.he is not only an ismaili scholar but also lexicographer.i would request you to make a video on him just as you did on "phir shah nasir khisraw".
i have listend to allama hunzai and so many waiz... but until now i dont know how hazar imam become our raaziq... khaaliq... and qayamat k din ka maalik... being a ismaili we always dua from hazar imam... our elders or mukhis etc never says (allah) thay always say mowlana hazar imam ap k gunah maaf kare ... etc
@@karimali1856 I had similar feelings till I found that namaz are haram all the time
czcams.com/video/Qt_YTHeTE-I/video.html
Naseer hunzai has nothing to do with ismailism ...he was not ismaili but claimed to be ...
I am excited to hear more about the formation of Islamic orthodoxy from your viewpoint. In my mind, the formation of any religious orthodoxy is an incredibly important process to study in the effort to understand religion's role in human behavior.
A very informative video on the Ismailis, very appreciative of that. When it comes to making claims especially in religion, the claimant must prove their belief via authentic reliable evidence. It is not a matter of discrimination or otherwise, evidence and unfortunately most if not all of the non-orthodox sects are based on hearsay. If a Muslim’s belief is not coming from the Quran and the Prophetic teachings it is not Islam.
meanwhile most of the orthodox Islam based on later writing which were written after 150-200 years later lol. not to mention how problematic those writing are how unreliable those. orthodox Islam is so much depended on those text that if you take away Quran from them there wouldn't be a that change of their orthodoxy(islam) lol. its easy to call other heretics when you're the majority and history is written by you. go do some research buddy how many century it took your orthodoxy to develop. btw we are seeing how harmful and peaceful are the so called correct Islamic sect(orthodoxy) to this world.
Very Well explained.
Nice exposition for someone interested in comparative religion.
I am Ismaili myself and it’s sad to see people who go against us particularly different beliefs of Islam
I'm sad to hear that you experience this as well. You have a wonderfully rich and interesting tradition.
Let's Talk Religion thank you so much that means a lot. Do you have whatsapp or iMessage? Would love to chat
I never heard of your faith until I traveled to Syria to film a documentary. Stay strong.
@@LetsTalkReligion Thank You :)
@Alawite Muslim Defence League thank you so much
yes about the five pillars after some study its cleared that every section in islam have diffirant pillars
That music at the end tho...does anyone knows it?!
A short note: Nasir Khusrav before becoming Ismaili missionary belonged to Sunni orthodox. And, not genuinely satisfied with the Sunni understanding of Islam set to his journey to find the real true path (sirat-al-mustaqim), which took him seven years until at last he was presented to the Fatimid Khalif-Imam Mustansir bi-Laah, in whom he found the real true path, for which he set his journey initially.
For your correction he was Twelver Shia
This is actually really interesting about Ismailism. Their whole neoplatonic ideas actually make a lot of sense when explaining a lot of the metaphysical aspects of Islam. I think Sufis have similar views, however, they are forced to conceal it, given the persecution at the hands of the traditionalist totalitarians, which still supresses these views.
Many of the Sufis were influenced to neoplatonism. As were the majority of the philosophers and even theologians. It was a widespread philosophy in the middle ages especially!
While persecution happened from time to time of course, we must also remember that Sufism for the most of history was basically the majority form of Islam. In the later middle ages it was so popular that it wouldn't make sense to talk about persecution as such. Sufism has never been, contrary to popular belief, some small and obscure sect of Islam. Until the late 19th century it was widely accepted and practiced, and was often supported by the state (with the exception of Safavid Iran).
And even when they were persecuted, it was rarely for neoplatonism but many other factors. As I said, neoplatonism was very popular in intellectual circles and widely applied to different degrees.
Of course some would criticize it and be sceptical, but that fact in itself rarely was the source of oppression.
@@LetsTalkReligion well there were some executions of sufis, like for example Mansur al Hallaj, who was killed for saying "I am the truth". Many sufis were forced to conceal their true beliefs to avoid that fate.
@@kuroazrem5376 Yes I'm not denying that there were persecutions, although executions were extremely rare. There is also scholarly doubt about Hallaj being ececuted for that phrase. Many believe his execution was for other, political, reasons.
@@LetsTalkReligion well religion and politics go hand in hand, as the religious legitimacy was political legitimacy, and as such his excecution was obviously political
@@kuroazrem5376you're murtad not even sufi you're from gulat
This is really cool. I grew up as a protestant Christian, and still consider that to be my position, but I've often thought that much of my personal theology has more in common with Buddhism, Western paganism, and some schools of Daoism than it does with most other Christians. I'm pretty sure most Christian 'fundamentalists' would be happy to see me burn at a stake for many of my views.
You should look into Eastern Orthodoxy.
Your videos are excellent. Keep up the good work.
Please consider making a video on the 12th Imam. Since he is an important part of the Twelvers eschatology, we should know more about him and the beliefs about his reappearance. Thank you.
Can you please do a video about Ahmedis?
Great explain about Isma'ilis..
Thanks!
Love the outroooo!!!!
Can you make a video on how the word ismaili means assissin and where that comes from and the context
Assassin force is created to protect from enemy attack as our ancestors from Japan created ninja and there ancestors in Greece sparta
He actually has about Ismailis and Assasins. In general, the situation for being Ismaili was so dangerous that they comminity was forced to become militaristic to save themselves. It was very dangerous time for Ismailis.
Enrich the Intellect by looking at stars and contemplate or beat the drump through rhythmic chants let Soul visit those stars. Philosophy and Mysticism is embroidered teaching in Ismaili Doctrine.
No this has nothing todo with Agakhani Ismailies .
Quran says in chapter 5 verse 48
has He wished made one ummat but He gave the sharia to all religions and they should worship their own ways taught to them and they should compete with one anther to achieve His goodness .
So only Arab has follow sharia since there is 125000 prophets god send to earth based on Quran.
Merci !
I would make an update to this is video is Ismailli does pray 5 prayers but within 3 intervals. Unlike orthodox 5 intervals for 5 prayers.
@Elaina Ali There are many types of Isma'ili; Popular ones are
Nizari Isma'ili... Musta'ali Isma'ili prays 3 (5 prayers) times similar to other Shias. Nizari Isma'ili prays dua but they do it as a rendition of the Salah.
@The Ismaili Agha Khani Live Streams & Debates Another so-called "ex-Ismaili". You have nothing more to do in life then being a sheep. May Allah guide you people , Ameen.
thee most important thing to know that there is only ONE GOD without partners or image...secondly that to worship GOD is to recognize and love GOD.the ONE that created you.....very very simple......no need for priests or smoke or ashes or props...
Ismailis find it very hard to understand there is only one Allah! They ask everything from Living Imam.
@@KK-fy6xf Even their imam believes in one God & His murids seek his 'wasila ' for fulfillment of their wishes .
@@rocknroll1870 No need for Wasila. Ask From Allah, and you will understand. Allah says in Al Quran, call upon me and I will respond. Check it out. No middle man, I do direct dealing!!
@@KK-fy6xf Then all dargahs must be closed as more than 60% muslims visit & pray for the fulfillment of their wishes via vasila of the 'peer' .
@@rocknroll1870 They believe in One Allah, Ismailis think Imam is Allah. As proven in Ginans. By the you tuber, if you understand. 90% of the Jamaat don’t understand what they are Ranting!! Including yourself?
This is a great production!!! Who is the speaker?
You mean the man on the camera? It's his channel I believe he's a scholar in Sufism in particular and also in Religion and Mythology in general
Proud to be Ismaili because we value humanity, respect, peace, and contribute to our country's progress.
The picture you showed is that of Bohra's wearing typical caps. Ismailis don't keep beard
Iam Shia Ismaili Muslim from Tajikistan 🇹🇯 Thank you for your information
Where to learn about Ismaili?
@@AdamZayn-rp2eiimam
3:17 But "orthodody" is *by definition* the (implicitly by the majority) "accepted as true or correct". Thus, the Isma'ilis (less than 1% of all Muslims) *by definition* hold some unorthodox views.
14:00 Point #3 is suspiciously similar to Joseph Smith and Moroni.
Please create videos on Sikhism too
I find it very ironic that the 'orthodox' islamic concept of Quran is very similiar to the 'orthodox' christian concept of Jesus (namely that their spiritual essence pre-existed their physical revelation and have always coexisted with God) which caused the Ismaili objection against the orthodox view of Quran to sound very similiar to the Gnostic objection against orthodox view of Jesus (namely that both are purely spiritual being whose form is interpreted by physical faculties)
I get your point from the outside, but your just looking at what they are doing without evidence. For example if I go on and start my own method of practicing Islam, get some friends and family to join me, do I become a recognized sect from the outside view? this is the issue. If you Read the Quran and follow what the prophet said, you will find all these additions in the core believes (Isma'li, Alawite) are not from Islamic teachings. Just because a group decided "hey we feel like doing it this way" doesn't mean its Islamic or a form of Islam. The base is Quran. After the Quran then it is the Hadith or sunna of the prophet mohamed, now if we are skeptic about which were real and which were fabricated, easy, follow the Hadith that goes in line with the Quran. It is very simple. Anyone inventing new things into the religions are just inventing new things.
Whatever you said is nothing to do with the Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims. Ismaili Muslims believe in Allah, Prophet Mohammed (S.A.S) was the last Prophet's from Allah and the Quran is the Final Divine Book from Allah.
There is no restriction in going to Hajj, There is no restriction in Fasting. I used to fast almost whole month of Ramadan and used to celebrate Eid Al Fiter with all religious fervor.
Yes we pay Zaqat to our Imam i.e. 12.5% of our Income. Whatever we to pay Him, it is his money we have nothing to say in it. From that you can see he is doing enormous and Gigantic works to bring back 'The Lost Glory of Islam.
Yes my Imam is right in saying that 'The Soul' rise high step by step and finally it gets elevated to one with 'The Divine Soul'
In 'Baiytul-Khayyal' we practice 'Ism-e-Azam' at midnight 3:00 to 4:00 A.M. Our Imam is The Interpreter of our 'Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim Tariqa; as He being 'Oolil-amr'. Can you tell me who is your 'Oolil-Amr' in present time? Prophet Mohammed (S.A.S) said while returning from Hajj at Khum-e-Gadir 'Mun Kuntum Mowla fahaza Ali Mowla' and that's continues till today and will continue until The Final Day
To talk and understand Shia Imami Muslims you need a in depth knowledge and philosophical approach with instinct of intuitions as Shia Imami Muslims are Esoteric in their belief. You can't come to an conclusion by seeing or by reading it. You must find out reality of Shia Imami Muslims. Hope you understand.
Do a video on atheism/agnostics
Cool one mate! If you are interested, I suggest you the author Farhad Daftari... you will find everything about the Ismailis (and the history)
God bless the Ismaili and their Imam
God doesn't bless heretics
Thank you brother 😇 god bless you too
Ameen. And thanks a lot
Followers of ali* 👌🏼
Quran says that all the believers who behave shall be rewarded .
Ppl won’t be rewarded who swear other ppl without the research , who abuse family of muhammad PBUH
Is/was there any group in History of Islam that has/had taken pillars of islam to be different than the Sunnis or Shias?