Looking to connect with other law students and build your network? 👉 JOIN THE FREE LAW STUDENT NETWORK FACEBOOK GROUP: facebook.com/groups/lawtribenetwork Anything else you've ever wondered about making partner at a law firm? Let me know in the comments below! :)
I don’t think you know how informative these videos actually are. And the fact that you take the time to respond to so many comments? I appreciate you very much.
I'm so happy to hear it! This comment made my day :) I love that these videos are helpful to you guys, and I have so much fun answering your questions, so it's definitely a win/win :)
Angela, thank you so much for your videos! I'm preparing to enter law school and I have no family in the legal industry, so you sharing "insider" knowledge is so valuable. Thank you for helping to level the playing field for aspiring first-generation attorneys who otherwise don't have much personal access to learning about the details of working in biglaw.
My pleasure!! I'm so glad the video was helpful! This was all definitely stuff I had no idea about when I was starting out either :) I actually run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers, if you'd like the link to join?
A lot of this does vary widely by firm. For example, my biglaw firm requires an 80% vote to make partner, though all partners are equity partners, so it might be a higher bar for that reason. And, in my observation, 30-50% of associates making partner seems very high. It might be true across all firms... but at my firm, out of a class of 100 associates coming in as first-years, maybe 5 will make partner, and by the time everyone gets to the 8th-year level, the vast majority of the 100 have already left.
This is such awesome insight, thanks so much for sharing! It's really helpful to hear what the percentages are at different firms to give more of a holistic view of the realities out there. And I think you're totally right, that the number of people making partner is wayyyy closer to 5% than 50%.
@@AngelaVorpahl That is true, and that is part of the problem with BigLaw. People think it is a path to success, when in reality, law firms are notorious for doing a "churn-and-burn" of new associates who only end up putting in 4-5Y, or less, before getting a bad Performance Review, or just burning out, and leaving.
Great video! I never wanted to go the partnership route, and frankly the whole process seemed a bit unclear in a lot of facets anyway, so this video was insightful! I'm sure it's somewhat similar to another corporate job where you're trying to advance up the ranks, but I have to imagine it's super stressful knowing that you have to work incredibly hard for 8 years only to possibly be told it's "out" instead of "up." But you laid out good alternatives, and I can attest to the public service route. I never wanted the grind of billables/partnership, and I was able to find a government legal job that is not only fulfilling and pays decently well, but is a 40 hrs a week type of gig. I was always more interested in a work/life balance and was fortunate to find a spot to make that happen!
That's amazing, Brett!! And so refreshing to hear! I love when I meet attorneys who feel happy and fulfilled in their work and career, I know it can be a tough thing to find in this profession!
One thing I would add to the list is not being afraid to explain and follow up with your (good) idea and finally take credit for it. I experienced a lot of times when associates just were afraid to follow up on their ideas and also afraid to take credit for it; as in afraid to come off cocky or overconfident.
I totally get that! I know that was me for the longest time. My biggest fear was that everything I was saying was wrong or off in some way, so I didn't want to push anything too hard in case someone was able to quickly point out a flaw. It took me SO long to build the confidence up to believe I knew what I was doing and that I had the expertise to back up what I was saying!
@@AngelaVorpahl I guess it depends a lot on the persons you're working with. For example, I worked with one partner quite closely on a case for weeks and it was only after the deal was signed and closed that he'd say he really liked my ideas even though they were not always right. Respectively, the way I was thinking and trying to solve certain problems. He made it seem like he had made similar mistakes so to say "well, I had those Ideas as a Junior and I am Partner now, so way to go..". But overall I think a more transparent and empathetic atmosphere between partners and associates would led to a lot more people being more confident in general. There is a lot of intimidation going on in law firms, especially under junior and senior associates i feel.
@@luk303 Absolutely agree 100%. Looking back I realized that a lot of the type of behavior you're describing came from a place of insecurity on the part of the partner, but that still never a sufficient excuse for a human to treat another human badly no matter their position in an organization. But I couldn't agree more that changing the environment to one that is more supportive and collaborative would make all the difference in the world. I had to constantly remind myself that "we are all on the same team" because so often it didn't feel like that.
OMG THAT'S AMAZING!!! Congratulations!!! What part of the videos did you find the most helpful -- was it how to answer a certain question in a law firm interview?
@@AngelaVorpahl the call back stage content was helpful. I’m in canada so it’s not as crazy and there were some differences but largely everything was applicable. Answers to specific standardized questions like ‘biggest weakness” were very useful and helped me come across as more structured. I probably watched like 10 videos and took something from each! Good content all around
Where I am from it goes like this: Trainee (18 months to two years training contract), Associate, Senior Associate (after six years), Counsel, Senior Counsel (it’s possible to skip this) Salaried Partner, Equity Partner.
I don’t think the 30-50% statistic is really accurate. Julian Sarafian seems to think that only 5% of associates actually remain in big law across the board. I’m not sure where he got that statistic from, but I think it’s undoubtedly true in regards to the V10 firms. There, your chances of making EP are similar to your chances of winning the lottery. In 2011, 47 Harvard law grads became partners. In 2006, Harvard sent 338 graduates to big law firms. So, only 15 percent of Harvard grads became partners, while an even lower number became equity partners. Essentially, being an equity partner is like winning the lottery in terms of your odds. To me, it would sting like hell to do everything right, get into HYSCCN, ace the LSAT, ace your classes, and survive until your sixth, seventh, or eighth year only to be told that your efforts meant very little.
I definitely hear you, and I think you're right! That statistic is way smaller, especially now as equity partnership numbers shrink. I completely hear you on the disappointment of working towards something that ultimately doesn't happen, but all of those years of work will definitely not be for nothing. You can always try for partnership at a smaller or more regional law firm, or take the client relationships that you've built up over the years and start your own law firm. :)
Good questions! (1) Becoming a non-equity partner by 35 is definitely realistic. If you go straight through from undergrad to law school, you'll likely graduate law school at 25 and then if you're on an 8-10 year track for non-equity partner you'd make it by 33-35 (assuming all of the factors line up for you of course!). (2) The jump from non-equity partner to equity partner is a tougher one since equity partner means buying a stake in the law firm. It's a lot of the same factors that law firms look for in non-equity partner, but just *stronger.* The biggest factor by far is your ability to bring in new business for the law firm. So some law firms may require you to bring in (for example) $1 million in client business before you can be considered for equity partner. That's just a random example, but it's to illustrate how much more difficult that jump can be in a lot of law firms.
Really enjoyable video. I never went the big firm track, but this is a fascinating look at the politics of making partner. I worked for a small firm for a while. That has its own politics. Bottom line: my belief is you'll never make the money you want unless you're on your own.
I love that perspective! And the partnership track was definitely something I was in the dark about until I left the law firm and started asking around to get people's experiences. It's so interesting how much they keep under wraps from the associates.
Thank you so much for making this and for explaining the process clearly! Your insight has helped me decide which path I would like to take as an attorney.
@@AngelaVorpahl Sure! I’m currently in journalism and I’m in the process of making a switch to law so your content has been super helpful! I’m very interested in public interest law, but I’m still learning about all of the different avenues of law. I probably won’t have a goal of making partner on my list.
@@kiaralyshell1994 Got it! If you're interested, I run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers, would you like the link to join?
Traditionally, law firms practiced an "up or out" policy, where any associate who didn't make partner was essentially asked to leave and they had to find a job elsewhere. Nowadays it's not so cut and dry, and associates can have multiple tries at making partner for a few years, and there are also non-partnership tracks at law firms to become an "of counsel" which is essentially doing the legal work without the expectation of bringing in business.
Does criminal defense have lowest threshold to enter? For example, you dont't need to graduate from a great law school. your grades don't have to be great...... If you are willing to move to any small cities or towns, you could have an easy time to find a position as public defender?
Good question. I'm definitely not the best person to speak to this since I didn't practice criminal law, but my sense is that substantive skills (more than grades) is what DA offices and public defender offices value most. And generally speaking, the larger the city the more competitive the positions will be, and the higher the level (e.g. local, state, federal) the more competitive the positions will be.
As a solo attorney, I had a million different client development plans and pathways. Question for you @AngelaVorpahl, is it beneficial or helpful to talk about CDP's with Partners at firms while you are working in the Associate role?
I never got to that step, but my gut reaction is heck yes! As long as you do it respectfully, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't be an amazing strategy to as many people as you can, get as much information as you can, make as many connections as you can.
any advice on getting to a top law firm? I'm only 16 right now but I've wanted to work at a firm like Skadden or Wachtell since I can remember. I live in the uk but the dream is to move to the big apple so do you have any advice at all on getting into one of these large firms ?
Yes! I have so much advice! If Wachtell and/or Skadden is your goal, then the best path to get there is to get into a T-14 law school and be at the top of your class during 1L year. I'm definitely not saying that needs to be your dream job, or that it won't change over time, but if that's the goal those are the most straight-forward high-level steps. The number one factor to getting into a T-14 law school is your LSAT score (shooting to get a 170 or above), and the second factor is your undergrad GPA. To get you started thinking about breaking down those steps further, here's a video on steps to take in college to get prepped for law school: czcams.com/video/nIufQqhhzEA/video.html Feel free to let me know if you have any follow-up questions!
Ms Vorpahl - why do most law firms have this “up or out” policy in the first place? Why don’t they all just have the “staff/counsel lawyer” positions that you mentioned? It seems to me they would stand to make a lot more money by keeping the associates who don’t make partner as they can continue to produce large amounts of billable hours.
Being harsh here...because it would destroy the firm. Most attorneys are lazy or entitled. If no “up or out,” you will have plenty of lazy attorneys waiting around. The entitled attorneys will not be happy to just sit around and watch the partners getting rich. So the longer a non-lazy attorney stays around, the more of a threat they are. I heard an old partner say once “The best associates bill for 2,000hrs a year for seven years and then leave.” You have no idea how greedy partners are.
Good question! So most law firms have a pyramidal structure, where the largest percentage is junior associates at the bottom, the associate ranks get slimmer as you get more senior, and then there are far fewer partners at the top of the hierarchy. The explanation I've always heard of the "up or out" policy is that as you become more senior your billing rates go up, so while junior associates are considered a "bargain" for their lower billing rates, it becomes increasingly more expensive for the firm (and therefore the client) to staff associates on matters as you get more and more senior. That's fine for a while because you will also be gaining more and more experience and therefore be able to create more and more valuable work product (the "sweet spot" for your expertise and your price point is around your 4th-6th associate years). At some point though (i.e. around your 8th associate year), the idea is that your billing rates become prohibitively expensive to continue staffing you on matters without you generating your own revenue by bringing in your own client business, and that you become more of a cost than a benefit. Of course that point in your career is not set in stone, and is not the case for everyone, which is why law firms are generally open to "of counsel" positions and/or making people non-equity partner. I suspect the other reason is (particularly at larger law firms) it can be possible to fly under the radar for quite a while (i.e. under-billing or under-performing) before partners catch on or doing anything about it. So I imagine the 8-year mark has not only become an evaluation point for your prospects as partner, but also a hard stop to prevent any under-achievers from progressing further in the ranks. All of that being said, the law firms definitely do seem to be slowly changing this traditional business model and opening up to more flexible and nontraditional work arrangements.
Hi Angela, Love your videos. Such a life saver for me right now. Do you have a video or could you make a video about crafting a Resume/Cover Letter for the Legal field as a Law student/Pre-Law student? I’d really appreciate some guidance. 😊
Ooh that's a good one! I'll put it on the list! And if you're looking for additional support, I run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers, would you like the link to join?
love this! Angela if you can, would love for you to make a video about all legal government jobs and the benefits of working in PS/Government. I am considering becoming a prosecutor!
Very cool! I have had that request a couple of times from people so it's defintely on the list! I'm not sure where you are in your path to becoming a lawyer, but if you're interested I run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers, would you like the link to join?
@@Happygolucky159 Canadians and all nationalities are totally welcome!! In fact there are quite a few Canadians in the group swapping advice and insight on going to law school in Canada vs. the U.S. Here's the link to join: facebook.com/groups/lawtribenetwork. See you inside!!
@@amaanallana2664 Awesome! Have you checked out the video I made on the different ways to study for the LSAT? It's both frustrating and liberating that there are so many different approaches, so I wanted to narrow them down for you guys to give you a place to start! Here's the link: czcams.com/video/QzFBzvVENYE/video.html
Haha well hopefully this vide helped! If you're looking for additional support, I run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers! Would you like the link to join?
The answer is yes, but it’s not easy. It is definitely worth it if you can, but it is hard work. Here’s what I mean: Your client benefits you, but not the partners. So you can’t work on your own matters at the expense of the partners’ matters. If you’re billing 2000hrs, you need to bill your own clients on top of that. If your output drops on their matters or you’re unavailable, it is bad. Second, you have to do most of the work. You have no leverage to assign work to others. Definitely not w partners. Even associates will be less responsive. So be prepared to do it yourself. All that said, DO IT. The people with books determine their own destinies. If you don’t have a book, you need a highly specialized, high rate practice, or substantial advocates (that is, you are essential to someone else’s book and you could take it with you if you left).
Hi Fortuna! You can definitely start beginning to take client development steps as early in your career as you would like (check out this video about what that could look like: czcams.com/video/aINMoOSUd_Q/video.html), but it will definitely start small. You will be working a ton of hours and learning the profession when you first start out, so I recommend to take small steps just to get in the practice of networking and building relationships. At larger law firms, there generally won't be any type of client development training until much further into your career (around your 7th or 8th year), and many times there's no formal training at all, and you have to wait to make nonequity partner before an equity partner will take you under their wing and show you how to structure a client pitch. And because the clients of larger law firms are mainly in-house counsel at larger companies (who are harder to convince to hire you until you're much more established in your career), there's also not an expectation that you actually have your own book of business in order to be made partner. Most bigger law firms just require that you create a "business plan" of ideas for how you could build those client relationships in the future.
Can you speak to regional boutique law firms that handle big law clients? I'm not talking about when a partner splits off from a big firm, but when an old firm acquires a number of big law clients due to circumstances. For instance, I'm taking a position at one of the oldest firms in Texas. It has only just over a dozen attorneys and it handles utilities companies, renewable energy, oil & gas, wind farms, banks, and businesses. Specifically, do you know anyone who has taken positions like this, and if so, what are starting salaries like and work hours?
Good question. I don't personally know of anyone who has taken a job in those circumstances, but I did have a friend who started working at a smaller law firm out of law school (I think less than 20 lawyers) with one main institutional client, and I think she started out making $75,000 to $85,000 a year. If you have already accepted the job (or are in the final stages of deciding), starting salary and billable hours are definitely fair game questions to ask!
It's true that at bigger law firms the percentages are very low, but a lot of biglaw associates that get passed up for partner are able to find partnership prospects at smaller or mid-sized firms, so it's not like partnership opportunities are totally off the table if you get a "no" vote. Plus, you never know, you may wind up being so much happier as a partner in another firm or on another career track altogether :)
Do associates make managing partner? How unusual is that? Haha I'm sure that's one long journey. But I read that the chances of women of color making it to managing partner in the top 100 biggest law firms is about 4%. Somehow that didn't surprise me at all I'd really like to know what do you think of it
Hi Neelam! The good news is that all managing partners were once associates :) But you're right that it's a long path to get there. In terms of diversity in law firm partnership (and even more so in law firm management) there are huge disparities in the percentages of women and people of color. A lot of law firms are actively recruiting both groups through diversity initiatives, so hopefully the culture and makeup of law firms changes to the point where there that disparity is lessened and eventually completely made up!
Good question. You definitely make partner in the office where you work -- i.e. the decisions usually happen on an office-by-office basis. But, yes, if you're a partner in the D.C. office of the law firm (for example), you are a partner throughout the entire law firm (i.e. all the offices of the law firm) as well. And once you're a partner (particularly an equity partner), you can generally choose to move to any office you want (after you become licensed in that state of course).
Wow!! Congratulations!! If you have a love for family law, I say go for it! There are a lot of wonderful family law lawyers out there making a great living. If you haven't already, I highly recommend conducting informational interviews with family law lawyers in the city where you're looking to practice (you can search them by "family law" in the city of your choice on linkedin), and ask them questions about their career paths and their day-to-day and if they found it difficult financially when they were first starting out. You'll get SO many great insights and advice through conversations like these :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Actually, I am graduating in Argentina (Buenos Aires), where law school is way longer (6 years), buuuut, good thing is you don't need to pass the bar at the end to litigate. You just certify your diploma in the bar association and voilà! Now, since I live part of the year in the US, could you tell me what would a lawyer graduated abroad need to do to litigate in the US? I'm a translator and certified Spa/Eng interpreter as well, so I'm thinking in taking courses and spending some time there to work and study more!
@@letmonge Good question. So I would definitely do some background research on Argentina specifically, but for some states (like New York) you can become eligible to sit to take the Bar in that state (and afterwards becoming licensed to practice law in that state) after graduating from a 1-year LLM program (rather than going through a 2-year or 3-year JD program). That being said, keep in mind that it is very difficult to actually get a legal job with just an LLM degree, and that from what I've heard, most international LLM graduates are eligible for a short-term 9-month position with the visa you will have, but that a long-term, full-time position is much tougher to come by because the legal employer would need to sponsor the international lawyer/student for a work visa which they are often not looking to do unless the lawyer/student has a very specific skill set in a very specific region of the world they're looking for. But I'm hoping to be able to make a more indepth video in the future laying out the entire process for you guys and getting you (hopefully) more thorough statistics!
Hi Angela! Thank you for another great video! I had a few questions (again) I wanted to ask. 1) You mentioned that January is when you go "up" the ladder in associateship. How does that work when a lot of associates begin their careers in Sept/Oct after bar exams? 2) Are partners evaluated on their billables like associates are, or their book of business as a whole? (e.g. they might bill less, but they have more clients that generated revenue that year). 3) How much would you recommend participating in the recruitment process particularly? That sounds very interesting, but I'm wondering how much that would help in the partnership evaluation stage. Thank you again for all your insight!
Hi Matt! These are all awesome questions! Send these to me through a DM on Instagram @angelavorpahl so that I can I give you a full response to each one :)
Oh gosh, there a ton of different practice areas you can go into at a biglaw firm because they practice so many different types of law. As an example, if you check out Wachtell Lipton's website here (www.wlrk.com/), click on "Practices," you can get a sense for all the different types of work they do (as an example of one of the biggest law firms).
No, it's not a hard and fast rule, it's just the general industry standard. Most law firms fall somewhere in the 8-10 year range for promoting associates to partner. I've never personally heard of anyone being made partner faster than 8 years, but that's not to say it's never happened :)
That's so interesting! That's exactly how we handle it here too, at least inward-facing. Outward-facing everyone gets the title of "partner" so you wouldn't know if they were equity or nonequity unless you asked the person directly :)
The very vast majority of people. There will always be people who say they're in out for helping people or bc they idolised the idea of being a lawyer (due to hollywood). Just know that there are very few real altruistic law students out there lol.
A lot, but most of them aren't very smart for doing so. If you're not in BigLaw, a great Midlaw firm, or a good government job,, the money isn't very good.
Oh gosh, there's absolutely no guarantee at all that you'll be 100% fulfilled, with making partner or with any other endeavor in life. You always have to keep checking in with yourself and following your gut and seeking out what brings you joy :)
Oh yes, my current background is not ideal but it has great audio quality so I've gone back and forth depending on what I'm prioritizing on any given shoot day. But if all goes well I'll be moving into a space soon that has a great background AND great audio, so fingers crossed! :)
Looking to connect with other law students and build your network?
👉 JOIN THE FREE LAW STUDENT NETWORK FACEBOOK GROUP: facebook.com/groups/lawtribenetwork
Anything else you've ever wondered about making partner at a law firm? Let me know in the comments below! :)
I don’t think you know how informative these videos actually are. And the fact that you take the time to respond to so many comments? I appreciate you very much.
I'm so happy to hear it! This comment made my day :) I love that these videos are helpful to you guys, and I have so much fun answering your questions, so it's definitely a win/win :)
Angela, thank you so much for your videos! I'm preparing to enter law school and I have no family in the legal industry, so you sharing "insider" knowledge is so valuable. Thank you for helping to level the playing field for aspiring first-generation attorneys who otherwise don't have much personal access to learning about the details of working in biglaw.
My pleasure!! I'm so glad the video was helpful! This was all definitely stuff I had no idea about when I was starting out either :) I actually run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers, if you'd like the link to join?
As long as you work hard, and have a passion for what you do, you'll do great!
I have literally been waiting for this video for almost a year. I’ve been looking out for it since January.
Awesome!! And what did you think? :)
A lot of this does vary widely by firm. For example, my biglaw firm requires an 80% vote to make partner, though all partners are equity partners, so it might be a higher bar for that reason. And, in my observation, 30-50% of associates making partner seems very high. It might be true across all firms... but at my firm, out of a class of 100 associates coming in as first-years, maybe 5 will make partner, and by the time everyone gets to the 8th-year level, the vast majority of the 100 have already left.
This is such awesome insight, thanks so much for sharing! It's really helpful to hear what the percentages are at different firms to give more of a holistic view of the realities out there. And I think you're totally right, that the number of people making partner is wayyyy closer to 5% than 50%.
@@AngelaVorpahl That is true, and that is part of the problem with BigLaw. People think it is a path to success, when in reality, law firms are notorious for doing a "churn-and-burn" of new associates who only end up putting in 4-5Y, or less, before getting a bad Performance Review, or just burning out, and leaving.
Great video! I never wanted to go the partnership route, and frankly the whole process seemed a bit unclear in a lot of facets anyway, so this video was insightful! I'm sure it's somewhat similar to another corporate job where you're trying to advance up the ranks, but I have to imagine it's super stressful knowing that you have to work incredibly hard for 8 years only to possibly be told it's "out" instead of "up." But you laid out good alternatives, and I can attest to the public service route. I never wanted the grind of billables/partnership, and I was able to find a government legal job that is not only fulfilling and pays decently well, but is a 40 hrs a week type of gig. I was always more interested in a work/life balance and was fortunate to find a spot to make that happen!
That's amazing, Brett!! And so refreshing to hear! I love when I meet attorneys who feel happy and fulfilled in their work and career, I know it can be a tough thing to find in this profession!
"unclear?" ....more like too subjective
One thing I would add to the list is not being afraid to explain and follow up with your (good) idea and finally take credit for it. I experienced a lot of times when associates just were afraid to follow up on their ideas and also afraid to take credit for it; as in afraid to come off cocky or overconfident.
I totally get that! I know that was me for the longest time. My biggest fear was that everything I was saying was wrong or off in some way, so I didn't want to push anything too hard in case someone was able to quickly point out a flaw. It took me SO long to build the confidence up to believe I knew what I was doing and that I had the expertise to back up what I was saying!
@@AngelaVorpahl I guess it depends a lot on the persons you're working with. For example, I worked with one partner quite closely on a case for weeks and it was only after the deal was signed and closed that he'd say he really liked my ideas even though they were not always right. Respectively, the way I was thinking and trying to solve certain problems. He made it seem like he had made similar mistakes so to say "well, I had those Ideas as a Junior and I am Partner now, so way to go..".
But overall I think a more transparent and empathetic atmosphere between partners and associates would led to a lot more people being more confident in general. There is a lot of intimidation going on in law firms, especially under junior and senior associates i feel.
@@luk303 Absolutely agree 100%. Looking back I realized that a lot of the type of behavior you're describing came from a place of insecurity on the part of the partner, but that still never a sufficient excuse for a human to treat another human badly no matter their position in an organization. But I couldn't agree more that changing the environment to one that is more supportive and collaborative would make all the difference in the world. I had to constantly remind myself that "we are all on the same team" because so often it didn't feel like that.
I just got a big law job in part thanks to your help and yeah i wanna make partner one day, thanks for the vid
OMG THAT'S AMAZING!!! Congratulations!!! What part of the videos did you find the most helpful -- was it how to answer a certain question in a law firm interview?
@@AngelaVorpahl the call back stage content was helpful. I’m in canada so it’s not as crazy and there were some differences but largely everything was applicable. Answers to specific standardized questions like ‘biggest weakness” were very useful and helped me come across as more structured. I probably watched like 10 videos and took something from each! Good content all around
@@EliteRowmaster 😍😍😍
Where I am from it goes like this: Trainee (18 months to two years training contract), Associate, Senior Associate (after six years), Counsel, Senior Counsel (it’s possible to skip this) Salaried Partner, Equity Partner.
Very cool!! I love hearing how the legal industry models work in other countries :)
I don’t think the 30-50% statistic is really accurate. Julian Sarafian seems to think that only 5% of associates actually remain in big law across the board. I’m not sure where he got that statistic from, but I think it’s undoubtedly true in regards to the V10 firms. There, your chances of making EP are similar to your chances of winning the lottery.
In 2011, 47 Harvard law grads became partners. In 2006, Harvard sent 338 graduates to big law firms. So, only 15 percent of Harvard grads became partners, while an even lower number became equity partners. Essentially, being an equity partner is like winning the lottery in terms of your odds.
To me, it would sting like hell to do everything right, get into HYSCCN, ace the LSAT, ace your classes, and survive until your sixth, seventh, or eighth year only to be told that your efforts meant very little.
I definitely hear you, and I think you're right! That statistic is way smaller, especially now as equity partnership numbers shrink.
I completely hear you on the disappointment of working towards something that ultimately doesn't happen, but all of those years of work will definitely not be for nothing. You can always try for partnership at a smaller or more regional law firm, or take the client relationships that you've built up over the years and start your own law firm. :)
I have a couple of questions. First of all, is being partner by 35 realistic? Also how do you go from non-equity to equity partner?
Good questions! (1) Becoming a non-equity partner by 35 is definitely realistic. If you go straight through from undergrad to law school, you'll likely graduate law school at 25 and then if you're on an 8-10 year track for non-equity partner you'd make it by 33-35 (assuming all of the factors line up for you of course!). (2) The jump from non-equity partner to equity partner is a tougher one since equity partner means buying a stake in the law firm. It's a lot of the same factors that law firms look for in non-equity partner, but just *stronger.* The biggest factor by far is your ability to bring in new business for the law firm. So some law firms may require you to bring in (for example) $1 million in client business before you can be considered for equity partner. That's just a random example, but it's to illustrate how much more difficult that jump can be in a lot of law firms.
Really enjoyable video. I never went the big firm track, but this is a fascinating look at the politics of making partner. I worked for a small firm for a while. That has its own politics. Bottom line: my belief is you'll never make the money you want unless you're on your own.
I love that perspective! And the partnership track was definitely something I was in the dark about until I left the law firm and started asking around to get people's experiences. It's so interesting how much they keep under wraps from the associates.
That's true for any job. The employee is a cost so you have to bring in more money to the company than the company pays you.
I love your videos Angela! You provide information that is really hard to find out there.
Thanks so much, Marcos! I'm glad I have an avenue to be able to share what I've learned along the way :)
Thank you so much for making this and for explaining the process clearly! Your insight has helped me decide which path I would like to take as an attorney.
That's so awesome to hear!! May I ask what type of path you're leaning toward? :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Sure! I’m currently in journalism and I’m in the process of making a switch to law so your content has been super helpful! I’m very interested in public interest law, but I’m still learning about all of the different avenues of law. I probably won’t have a goal of making partner on my list.
@@kiaralyshell1994 Got it! If you're interested, I run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers, would you like the link to join?
@@AngelaVorpahl Yes please!
@@kiaralyshell1994 Great! Here's the link to join: facebook.com/groups/lawtribenetwork. See you inside! :)
What happens do the 8th year associates? Like after the 8th year, If they do not become partner?
Traditionally, law firms practiced an "up or out" policy, where any associate who didn't make partner was essentially asked to leave and they had to find a job elsewhere. Nowadays it's not so cut and dry, and associates can have multiple tries at making partner for a few years, and there are also non-partnership tracks at law firms to become an "of counsel" which is essentially doing the legal work without the expectation of bringing in business.
Does criminal defense have lowest threshold to enter? For example, you dont't need to graduate from a great law school. your grades don't have to be great...... If you are willing to move to any small cities or towns, you could have an easy time to find a position as public defender?
Good question. I'm definitely not the best person to speak to this since I didn't practice criminal law, but my sense is that substantive skills (more than grades) is what DA offices and public defender offices value most. And generally speaking, the larger the city the more competitive the positions will be, and the higher the level (e.g. local, state, federal) the more competitive the positions will be.
As a solo attorney, I had a million different client development plans and pathways. Question for you @AngelaVorpahl, is it beneficial or helpful to talk about CDP's with Partners at firms while you are working in the Associate role?
I never got to that step, but my gut reaction is heck yes! As long as you do it respectfully, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't be an amazing strategy to as many people as you can, get as much information as you can, make as many connections as you can.
Your videos are the best!!!
😍😍😍
Heyyy omg just finished watching!!! The most surprising thing is you can actually launch a firm in cosrta rica... i wish you were my sister.!!!!
any advice on getting to a top law firm? I'm only 16 right now but I've wanted to work at a firm like Skadden or Wachtell since I can remember. I live in the uk but the dream is to move to the big apple so do you have any advice at all on getting into one of these large firms ?
Yes! I have so much advice! If Wachtell and/or Skadden is your goal, then the best path to get there is to get into a T-14 law school and be at the top of your class during 1L year. I'm definitely not saying that needs to be your dream job, or that it won't change over time, but if that's the goal those are the most straight-forward high-level steps. The number one factor to getting into a T-14 law school is your LSAT score (shooting to get a 170 or above), and the second factor is your undergrad GPA. To get you started thinking about breaking down those steps further, here's a video on steps to take in college to get prepped for law school: czcams.com/video/nIufQqhhzEA/video.html
Feel free to let me know if you have any follow-up questions!
You're completely insane to want to work at those firms.
Ms Vorpahl - why do most law firms have this “up or out” policy in the first place? Why don’t they all just have the “staff/counsel lawyer” positions that you mentioned? It seems to me they would stand to make a lot more money by keeping the associates who don’t make partner as they can continue to produce large amounts of billable hours.
Being harsh here...because it would destroy the firm. Most attorneys are lazy or entitled. If no “up or out,” you will have plenty of lazy attorneys waiting around. The entitled attorneys will not be happy to just sit around and watch the partners getting rich. So the longer a non-lazy attorney stays around, the more of a threat they are. I heard an old partner say once “The best associates bill for 2,000hrs a year for seven years and then leave.” You have no idea how greedy partners are.
Good question! So most law firms have a pyramidal structure, where the largest percentage is junior associates at the bottom, the associate ranks get slimmer as you get more senior, and then there are far fewer partners at the top of the hierarchy. The explanation I've always heard of the "up or out" policy is that as you become more senior your billing rates go up, so while junior associates are considered a "bargain" for their lower billing rates, it becomes increasingly more expensive for the firm (and therefore the client) to staff associates on matters as you get more and more senior. That's fine for a while because you will also be gaining more and more experience and therefore be able to create more and more valuable work product (the "sweet spot" for your expertise and your price point is around your 4th-6th associate years). At some point though (i.e. around your 8th associate year), the idea is that your billing rates become prohibitively expensive to continue staffing you on matters without you generating your own revenue by bringing in your own client business, and that you become more of a cost than a benefit.
Of course that point in your career is not set in stone, and is not the case for everyone, which is why law firms are generally open to "of counsel" positions and/or making people non-equity partner.
I suspect the other reason is (particularly at larger law firms) it can be possible to fly under the radar for quite a while (i.e. under-billing or under-performing) before partners catch on or doing anything about it. So I imagine the 8-year mark has not only become an evaluation point for your prospects as partner, but also a hard stop to prevent any under-achievers from progressing further in the ranks.
All of that being said, the law firms definitely do seem to be slowly changing this traditional business model and opening up to more flexible and nontraditional work arrangements.
Hi Angela,
Love your videos. Such a life saver for me right now. Do you have a video or could you make a video about crafting a Resume/Cover Letter for the Legal field as a Law student/Pre-Law student? I’d really appreciate some guidance. 😊
Ooh that's a good one! I'll put it on the list! And if you're looking for additional support, I run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers, would you like the link to join?
@@AngelaVorpahl Yes please!
@@KP-uz3nk Great! Here's the link to join: facebook.com/groups/lawtribenetwork See you inside!!
love this! Angela if you can, would love for you to make a video about all legal government jobs and the benefits of working in PS/Government. I am considering becoming a prosecutor!
Very cool! I have had that request a couple of times from people so it's defintely on the list! I'm not sure where you are in your path to becoming a lawyer, but if you're interested I run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers, would you like the link to join?
@@AngelaVorpahl hi angela! Thanks so much for replying. I would love to join your group! However I am Canadian :)
@@Happygolucky159 Canadians and all nationalities are totally welcome!! In fact there are quite a few Canadians in the group swapping advice and insight on going to law school in Canada vs. the U.S.
Here's the link to join: facebook.com/groups/lawtribenetwork.
See you inside!!
From lawyer to seller to make partner. That's the most important thing. Your lawyering skills are secondary.
outside of big law, how much can a partner expect to make, ntl avg?
Thank you again for the amazing content! Very informative :)
My pleasure!! This one was a fun one to make because it was something I had ZERO idea about when I first started at a law firm :)
@@AngelaVorpahl It’s definitely an insider information which helps you make informed career choices early on!
@@jiyoungkim4004 Totally agree! :)
So how long does it take to become an equity partner while associates to non equity partner takes abt 8 years??
Love this content thank you
My pleasure!! Where are you in the lawyering journey process?
@@AngelaVorpahl I am currently studying for the LSAT. I actually would really like some advice if your free! I have added myself into your Facebook!
@@amaanallana2664 Awesome! Have you checked out the video I made on the different ways to study for the LSAT? It's both frustrating and liberating that there are so many different approaches, so I wanted to narrow them down for you guys to give you a place to start! Here's the link: czcams.com/video/QzFBzvVENYE/video.html
0L, but yes, I need to know how to make partner, like, right now!
Haha well hopefully this vide helped! If you're looking for additional support, I run a free FB group for law students, prelaw students, and new lawyers! Would you like the link to join?
@@AngelaVorpahl can i get this link?
@@Sovereignindividual21 Definitely! Here's the link to join: facebook.com/groups/lawtribenetwork. See you inside!
In big law firms are senior associates allowed to start fishing for their own clients?
The answer is yes, but it’s not easy. It is definitely worth it if you can, but it is hard work. Here’s what I mean: Your client benefits you, but not the partners. So you can’t work on your own matters at the expense of the partners’ matters. If you’re billing 2000hrs, you need to bill your own clients on top of that. If your output drops on their matters or you’re unavailable, it is bad. Second, you have to do most of the work. You have no leverage to assign work to others. Definitely not w partners. Even associates will be less responsive. So be prepared to do it yourself. All that said, DO IT. The people with books determine their own destinies. If you don’t have a book, you need a highly specialized, high rate practice, or substantial advocates (that is, you are essential to someone else’s book and you could take it with you if you left).
@@argyleeuphoria6200 Thank you, for your answer and time.
Hi Fortuna! You can definitely start beginning to take client development steps as early in your career as you would like (check out this video about what that could look like: czcams.com/video/aINMoOSUd_Q/video.html), but it will definitely start small. You will be working a ton of hours and learning the profession when you first start out, so I recommend to take small steps just to get in the practice of networking and building relationships.
At larger law firms, there generally won't be any type of client development training until much further into your career (around your 7th or 8th year), and many times there's no formal training at all, and you have to wait to make nonequity partner before an equity partner will take you under their wing and show you how to structure a client pitch.
And because the clients of larger law firms are mainly in-house counsel at larger companies (who are harder to convince to hire you until you're much more established in your career), there's also not an expectation that you actually have your own book of business in order to be made partner. Most bigger law firms just require that you create a "business plan" of ideas for how you could build those client relationships in the future.
Can you speak to regional boutique law firms that handle big law clients? I'm not talking about when a partner splits off from a big firm, but when an old firm acquires a number of big law clients due to circumstances. For instance, I'm taking a position at one of the oldest firms in Texas. It has only just over a dozen attorneys and it handles utilities companies, renewable energy, oil & gas, wind farms, banks, and businesses. Specifically, do you know anyone who has taken positions like this, and if so, what are starting salaries like and work hours?
Good question. I don't personally know of anyone who has taken a job in those circumstances, but I did have a friend who started working at a smaller law firm out of law school (I think less than 20 lawyers) with one main institutional client, and I think she started out making $75,000 to $85,000 a year. If you have already accepted the job (or are in the final stages of deciding), starting salary and billable hours are definitely fair game questions to ask!
Sounds kinda depressing. The likelihood of anyone becoming partner is slim.
It's true that at bigger law firms the percentages are very low, but a lot of biglaw associates that get passed up for partner are able to find partnership prospects at smaller or mid-sized firms, so it's not like partnership opportunities are totally off the table if you get a "no" vote. Plus, you never know, you may wind up being so much happier as a partner in another firm or on another career track altogether :)
Thanks angela!!
My pleasure! Is making partner something in your possible long-term plan? :)
Do associates make managing partner? How unusual is that? Haha I'm sure that's one long journey. But I read that the chances of women of color making it to managing partner in the top 100 biggest law firms is about 4%. Somehow that didn't surprise me at all I'd really like to know what do you think of it
Hi Neelam! The good news is that all managing partners were once associates :) But you're right that it's a long path to get there. In terms of diversity in law firm partnership (and even more so in law firm management) there are huge disparities in the percentages of women and people of color. A lot of law firms are actively recruiting both groups through diversity initiatives, so hopefully the culture and makeup of law firms changes to the point where there that disparity is lessened and eventually completely made up!
@@AngelaVorpahl Thank you for taking the time to reply :)
@@neelam8190 Of course! The issues you bring up are crazy important and the legal industry is historically incredibly slow to change 😣
@@AngelaVorpahl I couldn't agree more!
Not something I'm really interested in, doesn't sound terrible, just think there are better things I could do
I hear you! There's definitely a different path for everyone out there :)
Very persuasive, stare dececis
So glad you enjoyed the video! Are you currently in law school or thinking of heading that way? :)
With Big Law having multiple offices do you make partner at the city you work in and therefore partner everywhere?
Good question. You definitely make partner in the office where you work -- i.e. the decisions usually happen on an office-by-office basis. But, yes, if you're a partner in the D.C. office of the law firm (for example), you are a partner throughout the entire law firm (i.e. all the offices of the law firm) as well. And once you're a partner (particularly an equity partner), you can generally choose to move to any office you want (after you become licensed in that state of course).
I’m in med school but I find your videos really interesting and entertaining. Your personality is great 😊
Thanks so much, Sameerah! I'm so happy to hear the videos are interesting even for people outside the law school/law firm world :)
I’m here because of Camille Vasquez😊
Graduating in a week! I am in love with family law, will I starve? Or shall I keep the faith?
Wow!! Congratulations!! If you have a love for family law, I say go for it! There are a lot of wonderful family law lawyers out there making a great living. If you haven't already, I highly recommend conducting informational interviews with family law lawyers in the city where you're looking to practice (you can search them by "family law" in the city of your choice on linkedin), and ask them questions about their career paths and their day-to-day and if they found it difficult financially when they were first starting out. You'll get SO many great insights and advice through conversations like these :)
@@AngelaVorpahl you rock the law! Thank you so much for your words. And thank you for the amazing material you create. I'll follow your advice!
@@letmonge Yay!! I'm so glad to hear it!! Let me know where you land! :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Actually, I am graduating in Argentina (Buenos Aires), where law school is way longer (6 years), buuuut, good thing is you don't need to pass the bar at the end to litigate. You just certify your diploma in the bar association and voilà! Now, since I live part of the year in the US, could you tell me what would a lawyer graduated abroad need to do to litigate in the US? I'm a translator and certified Spa/Eng interpreter as well, so I'm thinking in taking courses and spending some time there to work and study more!
@@letmonge Good question. So I would definitely do some background research on Argentina specifically, but for some states (like New York) you can become eligible to sit to take the Bar in that state (and afterwards becoming licensed to practice law in that state) after graduating from a 1-year LLM program (rather than going through a 2-year or 3-year JD program). That being said, keep in mind that it is very difficult to actually get a legal job with just an LLM degree, and that from what I've heard, most international LLM graduates are eligible for a short-term 9-month position with the visa you will have, but that a long-term, full-time position is much tougher to come by because the legal employer would need to sponsor the international lawyer/student for a work visa which they are often not looking to do unless the lawyer/student has a very specific skill set in a very specific region of the world they're looking for. But I'm hoping to be able to make a more indepth video in the future laying out the entire process for you guys and getting you (hopefully) more thorough statistics!
Hi Angela! Thank you for another great video!
I had a few questions (again) I wanted to ask.
1) You mentioned that January is when you go "up" the ladder in associateship. How does that work when a lot of associates begin their careers in Sept/Oct after bar exams?
2) Are partners evaluated on their billables like associates are, or their book of business as a whole? (e.g. they might bill less, but they have more clients that generated revenue that year).
3) How much would you recommend participating in the recruitment process particularly? That sounds very interesting, but I'm wondering how much that would help in the partnership evaluation stage.
Thank you again for all your insight!
Hi Matt! These are all awesome questions! Send these to me through a DM on Instagram @angelavorpahl so that I can I give you a full response to each one :)
That’s an amazing video
I'm so glad to hear that it was helpful! :)
Big law usually practice in what specialty?
Oh gosh, there a ton of different practice areas you can go into at a biglaw firm because they practice so many different types of law. As an example, if you check out Wachtell Lipton's website here (www.wlrk.com/), click on "Practices," you can get a sense for all the different types of work they do (as an example of one of the biggest law firms).
Is the eight years fixed? Can you become a partner quicker?
Really depends on the firm. But generally, no, it's not fixed.
No, it's not a hard and fast rule, it's just the general industry standard. Most law firms fall somewhere in the 8-10 year range for promoting associates to partner. I've never personally heard of anyone being made partner faster than 8 years, but that's not to say it's never happened :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Okayy thankss
@@luk303 Ahh i see thank you!
@@juliazhou5798 Any time! :)
They call the non-equity partners in Ireland 'salaried partners'.
That's so interesting! That's exactly how we handle it here too, at least inward-facing. Outward-facing everyone gets the title of "partner" so you wouldn't know if they were equity or nonequity unless you asked the person directly :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Same here, you’d have the title partner, but the market is so small here, everyone would know that you’re equity or not.
@@edmondmurphy Oh gosh! The difficulties (and benefits) of a small community :)
What percent of people do you think go into law primarily for the money?
The very vast majority of people. There will always be people who say they're in out for helping people or bc they idolised the idea of being a lawyer (due to hollywood). Just know that there are very few real altruistic law students out there lol.
A lot, but most of them aren't very smart for doing so. If you're not in BigLaw, a great Midlaw firm, or a good government job,, the money isn't very good.
I wanna make money but I can’t get up before 11am :(
Drum up business, join the “good o’boy club”.
Once you make partner...are you always 100% fulfilled??
Oh gosh, there's absolutely no guarantee at all that you'll be 100% fulfilled, with making partner or with any other endeavor in life. You always have to keep checking in with yourself and following your gut and seeking out what brings you joy :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Thank You
@@CoolHandLuke1117 My pleasure :)
Slight nitpick but have you considered a different background for your videos?
Oh yes, my current background is not ideal but it has great audio quality so I've gone back and forth depending on what I'm prioritizing on any given shoot day. But if all goes well I'll be moving into a space soon that has a great background AND great audio, so fingers crossed! :)
@@AngelaVorpahl awesome. Im enjoying your content so far and I’m excited to see what the future of the channel looks like.
@@veritas3953 😍😍😍
@@AngelaVorpahl no, that’s you 😉
I am there's
Big Law seems like a Pyramid scheme with extra steps. Solo practice for me thanks.
No partner for me I love tean me as qlway