I’m only about 51 minutes in, but I think it’s very interesting that Rod is willing to say that church leaders can make statements as men rather than representing the church, but every statement Stephen Hawking makes is representing science.
I think he also has so little understanding of how science or scholarship work that he imagines that Stephen Hawking had a similar control over science as LDS prophets hold over Mormon doctrine.
Also, I suspect the book he's talking abut is the first one, but Stephen Hawking later changed his mind, saying it's not true that before the big bang and the expansion it wasn't nothing, which is what he originally thought.
It's not just religious individuals who hold that idea though. There's plenty of societal issues right now where woke-ism is being propelled and forced upon the world with feelings being the primary motives.
@Taylor Holden Wokism (as bizarre and manufactured by the right wing media a term as it is), is totally justifiable through evidence based systems, that's why it is such a dominant world view in academia. It can provoke emotions because it's primarily about the awareness of injustice and seeking to find a remedy for that injustice. That doesn't mean it is based on just emotion. I would suggest though the rage and fear it provokes in it's critics, is much more so, when it's not entirely manufactured propagandist theatre designed to protect the status quo. I wonder who you let define wokeness for you? Is it those who defend it or is it people who share your views? Do you really trust them to accurately represent those values they clearly hold in such low esteem?
@@labgrunt1961for some people it is. Honestly though, the LDS premise is study it, seeking information out of any valuable source. Study it out, and then approach God with whatever outcome you found through your own studies and thoughts. I’m not talking about LDS culture or the culture of certain members. I’m talking about the doctrine that is actually taught
This really is one of the most important Mormon Stories interviews! Rod represents a huge portion of TBM’s. It is really important to have this on record and to shine a light on these views. Because, they are prevalent!
At around 4:30:00 when John asks him to "sit with it," I found this really beautiful. It felt like a meaningful moment of true invitation for reflection, instead of pushing back and turning into an argument. This was an incredibly triggering part of the interview, and I think John and Carah both were great examples of how to disagree in a respectful way, without losing their own voices. How emotionally exhausting this had to be though! I'm exhausted and I was just listening! Thank you for the genuine, heartfelt work you're all doing ❤️
I agree. This part was both triggering and inspiring at the same time. My heart beat has been pounding through this whole episode. I get so angry at Rods closed mindedness and refusal to listen. But I've been so impressed with Jon's handling of it.
He’s the king of “wha happen was…” for every fallacy. “The new dawn blooms as we free it. For there is always light if only we’re brave enough to see it. If only we’re brave enough to be it.” (Amanda Gorman) John Dehlin is shining the light.
I also have to say, I really appreciate John's therapy background, it shows and I feel it adds so much depth and value. Carah is so brilliant and articulate, on top of being super funny. She's a deep breath of fresh air, pretty much always!
I think John and Cara were very unprofessional and rude during this "unbiased" session. I don't care which way you believe or they believe. The guest was treated so disrespectful I was shocked and disappointed. I expect more from the hosts
@@tawneenielsen4080 Rodney also was “disrespectful” then if you consider John and carah to be. It was hours long discussion of opposing and conflicting opinions and beliefs, and unbiased opinions will come through in a discussion like that, even if the majority is nuance and the people are great at discussing nuance things. An example is that Rod literally called John and Carah “lost sheep” which I would consider offensive if I were them, but John understands that’s his perspective and moves on to continue the discussion, which I respect. I think everyone did the best they could for what this discussion was.
@@tawneenielsen4080 hm, that's an interesting take. I listened to this at double speed, and while tired, so it's possible I missed something. What specifically made you think this?
@@sophiej1987 John and Cara are the hosts. I expect more from them especially as they preach that they are against certain dogmatic behaviors. That means they should be completely objective. John and Cara both wanted to give long discourses, yet when Rod ( who I know nothing about other than this podcast) would try to explain an answers John would interupt " that's a yes or a no". Rod never said that to him. John, no explaining, that's a yes or a no. John kept throwing out Strawman analogies. I disagreed each time he stated that. So unprofessional. Different opinions and ideas are great, but being so rude to a guest, well, I unsubscribed after this one. John and Cara need to realize I had been listening to hear different views, and they take over every conversation to meet their ideals.
@@sophiej1987 they asked him to be on their show. Rids opinions, professionally speaking, should be objective but subjective. John should know better with his training. They turn into rants instead of conversation.
As crazy as this episode/ series is, I actually like the idea of having orthodox believing members on the show for two reasons: 1. I don’t want the exmormon space to become an echo chamber. 2. It exposes how harmful and crazy these beliefs can be. If we only have exmormons and nuanced members on it’s harder to challenge the orthodoxy.
Very much agree with both of these points. It's so so so important to take a break from nonstop affirmation of what you already believe. The more you challenge your current ideas/beliefs the closer you get to the truth. Also, yes, I can't tell you how many times I've heard "well the CES letter was disturbing but it wasn't until I started looking up apologetic arguments that I decided to leave the church." There's a lot to be learned from watching people like Rod do the most complicated of mental gymnastics in their heads while they reach for some way, any way, to maintain a very clearly absurd belief. To quote Jeffrey R Holland, "it must be done by crawling over or under or around" the obvious problems with the Book of Mormon. It's plain to see that they're trying to hold on to any excuse to still believe, no matter how absurd.
That is one of the things I like best about John and Mormon Stories, unlike some other Mormon podcasts where they only want one viewpoint presented John is not afraid to listen to both sides.
Yes! The truth will win out, I have to believe, and it would be senseless to turn a community that so uniquely understands and empathizes with how it feels to be the 'outcast' into one that will only ever hear out those who confirm what that community already believes.
Commenting as a student of science and as a Christian, I have never said “what?!” so many times while listening to your podcasts until now. You cannot change the mind of a uneducated autodidactic narcissist. He doesn’t know how to be wrong. He won’t allow himself to be educated. Such a frustrating episode… again. John and Carah: you both are amazing examples in patience.
I could not listen to much this. Meldrum is an absolute buffoon posing as an intellectual. It’s painful to listen to such confused, convoluted, and willfully ignorant reasoning being presented as a legitimate perspective. John gave him way too much time on the show in my opinion.
“Carbon dating can be accurate up until the flood” -Rodney Meldrum At that point I’ve just gotta laugh out loud. Massive respect for Carah and John and their level of poise and compassion throughout the episode.
I’ve been pacing myself through this story, Rod. I make it a point to listen to people all the way, even when I disagree vehemently. You tell us you understand how we feel when you call *our love for the most important people in our lives* the same as *pedophilia and bestiality*. When have you ever been compared to those atrocities? Assuming you understand a situation without asking questions or learning anything shows me how much you actually care… My love for my wife is not perverted. It’s not sick. We both grew up loving God and learning how to love by taking His words seriously. Jesus taught me to *love first* and be the *last* to judge. Paul taught me that we are all the same in Christ. No male, no female, no Jew or Gentile, no slave or free man. Why do believers insist on holding onto these labels and dogma? Rod. Please. LISTEN to more *LGBTQ+* stories. Take a break from talking and listen more. You don’t have to change your opinion, but maybe it will help you expand your compassion. 💜
Somebody get this guy a leotard, his mental gymnastics are world-class. Rod has successfully put the square peg into the round hole but it was mess. And the round hole is disfigured now.
years ago i would’ve watched this and thought, “yes!! thank you rod for standing up for the truth! how brave.” as i’m listening to this now all that’s going through my head is “this man the most arrogant, privileged, brainwashed, disrespectful human i’ve heard speak in a long time.” he wasn’t willing to listen to anything carah and john had to say even when they were blatantly telling him what he was saying was deeply offensive. the way he interrupted them the whole episode is exactly how mormon men make women feel on a daily basis… not important. on the other hand, I did like having the different perspective mixed in on the mormon stories channel. it reminds me why i left, & why i will continue to speak up about how mormonism hurts people and all the damage it causes.
@@christinamarston2421 in his mind he doesn't need to be empathetic because he is fighting for God's truth. For hardcore religious fanatics running the risk of offending people is trivial in contrast with proclaiming godly truth. You will never convince this man he is wrong.
4:25:57 Amazing points Carah 👏🏼 Everyone needs (tbm’s and exmos included) to hear and understand that the church benefits some, but it severely damages and harms many others. Thank you for being a voice for those many others.
@@CarahBurrell You did an amazing job in those circumstances! I would have tried to get my points across, he would’ve responded like he did to you, and I would’ve started crying and no one would’ve understood 😅 So kudos to you for keeping it together 👏🏼
I decided to watch this series because I wanted to understand why Carah chose to leave the podcast. I've gotten through parts 1 and 2 with lots of cussing and incredulous laughter, and I fully understand her choice. I want to stick this out, so we'll see if I can make it through part 3, but this is without questions one of the most disturbing conversations I've ever heard.
Parts of this episode were painful for me to listen to. I understand why what he said was offensive, but I think we must understand that many of us held those same beliefs just a few years ago, and it shouldn't be a surprise that there are people who are (hopefully not far) behind us. I think you guys handled the conversation appropriately especially based on the fact that there likely are vulnerable audience members listening to this. On the other hand, I don't think it is always the best to shut down a conversation/topic because you are uncomfortable with it. I think it can be helpful to air out bad ideas and let people realize the err (or truth) in what they are saying.
Rod doing research is not going to change his mind because he knows that everything in the Book Of Mormon is true. And nothing can change that truth. It's just painful to hear Rod's double-speak. It's not so much that the beliefs are painful - it's the contortions and trying to stick him to a concrete answer that are excruciating.
What bothers me when lay persons say "research" it usually involves them using the first five hits that appear on Google searches. No library, no textbooks, no academic journals, archives, or data sites used.
The only thing I agreed with Rod about: Fair Mormon apologetics leads people out of the church! However, I believe Rod’s defenses are equally myopic and would lead people out of the church as fast or faster. Just my opinion. This entire episode was like banging my head against the wall. I believe Rod is 100% sincere and I admire his passion but I do not admire his critical thinking skills. Nobody likes it when people start with a conclusion and ignore evidence and/or embrace logical Fallacies by the dozen in order to prove that conclusion. It’s not a good method for determining truth! Also, the way Rod speaks about LGBTQ+ is highly offensive! He needs LGBTQ+ people in his life to help him understand and love them.
I don't think that this episode is for everyone if it ends up hurting too much. For me, it would be extremely hurtful to come face to face with some of the harmful rhetoric I've encountered in my life (like justifying abuse, specifically of women). That being said, what an important episode to have. This exposes so much. Even though some of us aren't in a place to listen to parts of this (and no shame for that!), I think it was extremely important to honestly discuss opposing beliefs. When I was a member of the LDS church, there were certain things/topics that were painful for me to hear, and now I'm on the opposite end where I've embraced and better understand those uncomfortable topics. These conversations are where growth happens. Spotlighting issues instead of canceling them is important, and ignorance is to be pitied and challenged.
I'm a nevermo but fascinated by high demand religions and love Mormon stories podcast. Thank you to everyone involved. Rod certainly has a masters degree in "whataboutism". Im not expert in theology or the specifics of the science and history discussed but when he got got to an area that I am very familiar with (NAGPRA the Native American graves protection and repatriation act) it was so painfully obvious how he just makes up things that sound kinda right and presents them as fact (nagpra is not and has not ever been about absolutely every object in a museum collection, but rather those that are human remains, sacred, funerary, or culturally significant). We are in no danger of not being able to tell the stories of native cultures full stop. Museums tell stories without actual artifacts ALL the time. But also the process of repatriation has opened so many doors to cultural sharing and collaboration that has deeply shifted the relationship between institutions and many tribes, mostly for the better. Is it hard sometimes? Yeah. Is it sometimes a little messy? Absolutely. But I wonder how rod feels about the video recordings from inside the temple being shared widely or about Mormon garments and temple dress or even the bones of Joseph smith being publicly displayed. Somehow I think that might be less of a grey area for him than this question of whether human remains and sacred objects should be returned to the descendants of the cultures they belonged to.
Rodney Meldrum, according to himself: Not a historian - Smarter than historians. Not a geologist - Smarter than geologists. Not an archaeologist - Smarter than archeologists. Not a biologist - Smarter than biologists. Not a physicist - Smarter than physicists. Not an academic in any way - Smarter than all academics. These podcasts were difficult to get through but I wanted to really give this guy a chance and hear him out. Having done so, I'd say he's just ignorant, close-minded, unwilling to question his assumptions about the world. I found it hilarious that he thought flat earthers were laughably stupid, but he believes in a 6,000 year old earth and Noah's ark "cause the scriptures..". That's laughably stupid and people like him are in the same camp as the flat earthers in my opinion. This starfish will stay on the fucking beach, thank you very much.
I had to watch this after hearing how much this series negatively affected Cara… and I get it. It’s disturbing to know there are people walking around on this planet in modern day USA that thinking this way. I may have actual nightmares 😰😱
I'm here for the same reason. I wasn't interested in this episode until I heard it was Carah's last one. I haven't finished it yet but I've been reading the comments and I'm worried for some of the ending sections
Hey, simple suggestion that would be easy to implement: when you're doing a "part 2" (or 3 etc) interview: Could you link to the previous installments in the description? Likewise to related interviews with other guests, when applicable.
This episode has undone a lot of therapy for me and I'm probably not alone. As much as I've always wanted to hear more believers on Mormon Stories, this one is a DOOZY.
Sounds like you need a lot more than therapy. Sounds like you need to learn how to live around other people that have opinions other than yours. Wow what a sad life you must have. Pretending that your so offended or hurt by someone else’s opinion. Your life must be a DOOZY.
Carah, carah, carah!! From one millenial to the next, Carah youre a queen!! How you kept your composure, is beyond me. As a women and a millenial with a voice of my own, I am so proud of you for your behaviour because I could not have done the same. This guy is clearly crazzzyy. Lots of hugs and positive vibes all the way from Australia!
@@CarahBurrell I completely understand why you decided to part from Mormon Stories after this interview. It was extremely difficult to listen to. Keep gracing us with your humor because we are here for it!
Thank you for interviewing a believing Mormon. This kind of dialogue I find interesting and engaging. Hearing why someone believes is as instructive to me as hearing why someone doesn’t. Well done.
I find it extremely difficult to listen to episodes like this because believers ALWAYS end up lying or being dishonest or disingenuous. I haven’t made it to the end of this yet so I’m not sure what I think of him yet.
Rod: your comments at 33:10 about experiencing evolution when you lived in Arizona suggest to me that you might be fundamentally misunderstanding the theory of evolution. Organic evolution doesn't occur in the lifetime of a single individual; it's INTERGENERATIONAL. Whatever adaptations your body made to the heat when you were out golfing did not involve changes to your genetic code and therefore had little or nothing to do with organic evolution. Evolution would look more like this: Let's say a prehistoric Rod Meldrum, fleeing a band of invading Neanderthals, winds up on the edge of a desert. It's terribly hot, but safe, so he decides to make a go of it. Rod and his mate have five kids--this is where the process of evolution starts to kick in. Each of Rod's kids is a mix of him and his mate, with some random mutations thrown in there for good measure. Let's say one kid, Susie, has genes that make her slightly better adapted to the desert than any of the other kids. She sweats a little less and therefore loses less water. She is a bit thinner and thus has a slightly lower surface-to-mass ratio, meaning her body can dissipate heat more effectively. Etc, etc. Susie thrives in the desert, has more kids than any of her siblings, and her kids (being random variations of her) inherit some of that desert aptitude as well. Meanwhile another kid, Gustav, HATES the desert. For whatever reason, his genetic makeup is such that he just can't handle the heat. He hates the desert so much that he leaves and wanders all the way down to a frozen tundra 200 miles south. Much better, he decides. Gustav thrives in the tundra; eventually, he finds a mate and their kids, for the most part, thrive in the tundra as well. Give it a few hundred or thousand years, and you can see how the Susie-ites and the Gustavites might start to have noticeably different traits, adapted to their environments. Now if we jump to hundreds of thousands or millions of years and beyond (vast amounts of time beyond our experience or comprehension), you can imagine how much the environment could change and differentiate these two groups. The desert, generation after generation, favors and rewards any random mutations that are advantageous to desert-dwelling. Meanwhile the tundra favors those mutations that allow the gustavites to thrive in the cold. Each generation, nature essentially roles the dice with random variations in genetic code, and nature rewards those mutations that are advantageous. It's big picture thing. (at least this is my understanding as a fellow layman)
Totally agree. His comments about Arizona really demonstrated how he has absolutely no clue what “evolution” even means, on a very fundamental, middle school level.
Rodney, thank you for coming on Mormon Stories...I know it wasn't easy for you, and I hope you will return. Thank you John for NOT stopping the podcast near the end, long form is great!. Also, it would be a real shame if Mormon Stories only allowed the non believing perspective to be shared.
This is like an autopsy of Mormon faith. Important work and illuminating educationally but also utterly revolting and traumatizing. I appreciate this person's transparency though. Bigotry needs to be understood and he explains it well.
I find these R Meldrum interviews to be very similar to the Gospel Topic Essays. We have a representative of the TBM community explaining what so many (not all) TBMs believe and honestly these beliefs are more toxic than any "anti-Mormon" material out there. Like I tell my friends, the Church drove me out of the Church, not Mormon Stories, Radio Free Mormon, or anti-Mormon authors. The Gospel Topic Essays broke my shelf and R Meldrum adds to that. I'm thankful he is willing to come on. I hope many TBMs listen to this interview.
I think it's really important to get this straight: Central America is a region, not a continent. There's nothing that separates "Central America" from the rest of North America, because it is literally part of North America. Also Mexico is in not in the region of Central America. It's in North America. Period. The "Central America vs. North America" argument is merely a way to "other" brown people.
Ok, all I can do is give it a thumbs up 👍. As soon as I hear the words Eve and 6000 years ago, my head exploded. So I knew I couldn't continue to listen his bullshit. You're amazing
I seriously applaud you guys for speaking about all this together. Some of this would at this moment in time be painful for me to discuss about and stay so calm and listen to. Carah you did a great job at asking those very important and tough questions near the end, and that’s something I believe everyone should hear.
I feel that it's really important to listen to people like Rod, because it's very easy for those of us who have studied collegiate level science to dismiss them, but it's people like Rod who have killed almost a million Americans with anti-mask/anti-vaccine anti-science faith. We need to understand where this comes from so we can get ahead of it and learn how to counter it. I told my partner earlier that this was the second hardest episode of Mormon Stories ever to listen to, but I was hoping to learn the language of Meldrum. He said he hoped that it could serve as a Rosetta Stone in a way. But the racist anti-LGBTQ hate speech is just so painful. He's a hate monger and doesn't even know it. (Also, Hubble was the one who quantified the Big Bang Theory, not Hawking.)
I haven't even listened to the whole series, but I remember thinking how similar to the Q this guy's thinking is and how suspicious and conspiratorial he is for anything that doesn't echo his belief system. The scientists have a satanic agenda to make fake science in order to destroy the Mormon Church? Wow.
I really appreciate that Rod was invited onto the show and that he was willing to take the risk of accepting the invitation. I disagree with most of what Rod had to say, but I used to believe sort of like that, so I can understand where he is coming from. First, John, Carah, and Gerardo do an amazing job, and I don't want my comments to take away from that. I hate to be a back-seat interviewer, but I want to make a few points. John - it didn't seem fair to ask Rod what he believes, and not give him a chance to say why. I know that you didn't want to get into the science, but there were occasions where you pushed back on him because you didn't think what he said agreed with the science, then he tried to respond and you cut him off. Second, in this situation, I think it was counter-productive to be reacting so much to audience comments. I appreciate the live interactive format, but in this episode (and also with the race episode), it seemed like you were trying to juggle being fair to Rod, and also responding to the frustrated comments of the viewers. I am sure that you didn't want the viewers to feel like you were not being tough enough on Rod. It also seemed a little unfair that Gerardo was behind the scenes fact checking, and making comments and arguments for you to raise. I feel that was counterproductive to the interview. Gerardo is great, and it would have been fine to have him part of the interview. Also, I agree with the "circling the drain" comments. There were times that I had nearly had enough of listening, and it was not because Rod was saying questionable things (and he was), but that there was too much re-stating and probing Rod from a slightly different angle. Sorry to be critical, as you all do a great job.
I forgot to add - John, the way that you dealt with Rod when he brought up pedophilia and bestiality as "sexual orientations" was well done. Thanks for dealing with it in a calm but firm manner. Also, I think the most important part of this podcast was to to document Rod and his thoughts. It will be there in 50 years for people to see what people like Rod were thinking at the time. I don't think that trying to change or challenge Rod's beliefs or debate with him was the point.
I am fascinated by the workings of Mr. Meldrum's brain. He has a remarkable capacity to remember and use preposterous "evidence" to defend his theory, and he is able to explain it in a clear way. He has an answer for everything. But he exhibits an equally remarkable capacity for intellectual denial and disingenuousness. Ron reminds me of the people who are claiming that this past election was stolen from Trump and can back it up with a seemingly endless supply of BS.
Even if it were conclusively proven 100% that the Book of Mormon was false, even if the church confirmed it, Rod would still cling tight to the rod. He literally would stick his fingers in his ears and start screaming lalala. Confirmation bias is a terrible thing. That is why it is looked down upon in the scientific fields.
@@sdfotodude If that happened I don't think Rod would stick his fingers in his ears, he would listen closely to why the BoM was proven false and then go about "debunking" that proof with his own nonsense. You gotta hand it to Rod, he is tireless in his quest.
@MightyChange22 Haha, yeah I'm sure he'll school them. He really came off as a genius in this interview. Show Davinci, Newton, and Einstein to the door. Here's Rod Meldrum!
@@Tyler-2839 the point is he wouldn’t 🤣 he wouldn’t stand the heat there , all I’m saying is anti Mormons are more likely to give a no show than Mormons 🤷♂️
I have never been a Mormon and this episode was painful to watch. People like Rod are the reason I don’t believe in any religion. All religions have their differences but one of the things that unify most of them is the believe that they know the truth and their way to worship is the only and best way to do it.
I appreciate how people like Rod are so effective at creating atheists & promoting education & critical thinking & demonstrating the true horror of religious fundamentalism. He might be horrified at the thought but that's beside the point, his efforts are a powerful promotion of truth, reason & science, just not in the way he intends. He can be listened to as great satire of his own beliefs & church. I appreciated the guffaws he elicited from me.
At 4:40ish we’re talking about basic life things that are viewed as Mormon sin tearing families apart, I have a perfect example. After 8 years of struggling as a couple to go to the Temple, we were finally “worthy” and took the temple prep classes, and then I found out my husband had been chewing tobacco again, and hiding it from me, and it literally kept our whole family from receiving those temple blessings. THAT Is a real life example of what Carah is talking about, NOT pedophilia or bestiality, chewing tobacco. Those are the simple Mormon sins that rip families apart. My poor husband carried so much guilt and shame over that. And it wasn’t just a personal “sin” it was made public by other members asking us why we weren’t going to the temple, and set us up for a public shaming. Just one of my littler shelf items that made a huge impact on my personal salvation. My husband chewing tobacco kept me from Mormon salvation.
Wow Amanda....that's crazy!.....as I'm a neverMo (well, never anything actually), did that strike you as been ridiculous or weird at the time?... ..like, "sorry mate, you can't come in here, coz you chew tobacco".....
I see comments that "Rod can't give an answer" and I've watched this a few times now and John and Carah REPEATEDLY interrupt as Rod attempts to answer amid more substantive efforts. Anyone who happens to stumble across this - review materials from Wayne May and others at your own clock. These guys keep shutting down / stopping / stonewalling / gaslighting and interrupting Rod's efforts to convey evidence and scientific and legitimate information. This was very frustrating to get through knowing that there is a whole side of evidential backdrop amid a less distracted and restrictive and freer dialog.
I’m only at the dinosaurs section and it’s already painfully clear that Rod doesn’t understand the scientific method. Or he does he and he believes God wants us to go against reason. What would he think of other religions believing equally unsubstantiated things because their scriptures make claims about them?
Honestly, I think this interview could be used to lead more people out of the church than any other episode, save maybe the Tom Phillips episode. If Rod's reading this, I would be more than happy to sit with him and discuss the impact of his ideas and beliefs on the Mormon LGBTQ community. Rod, if you read this, feel free to reach out.
While I do not accept too much of what he said, Rod has to be complimented for his courage in coming on the show. As well John was fair while not allowing Rod to get into the science
"Listen with an open heart and open mind," says Mr. Meldrum during this interview. I wish he would take his own advice and do just that and have empathy for trying to understand certain things - such as people of color being offended by the word asianic or why comparing the LGBTQ community to pedophila is so offensive. Or when he says that this community is making a choice to be gay instead avoiding the questions or saying people should not be so easily offended all the time. Open hearts and open minds from your own mouth! Thanks all for this interview as this is important to discuss!
My favorite part of the episode is when Rod said he was putting something on the shelf that did make sense right now. He believes God will reveal the truth at some point in the future, but I recalled how many items were on my own shelf before it came crashing down… although the mental gymnastics displayed in this episode seem really dug in, so Rod’s shelf may just get swiped clear with his extra-special cognitive dissonance.
Wow! I don’t know where to start with this guy! This one was difficult to get through. Nicely done Carah and John. I don’t know how you got through it. 😅
I've really valued what Rod has raised questions to that are otherwise appeals to popularity amid a very flawed scientific paradigm. It appears to me that scientists frequent gargantuan random numbers like politicians do with our national debt. Where in the world do these numbers come from and how are they calculated? Why 25,000,000 years?! - why be using science to 'shoot to the moon' with speculation/s and assumptions. John, in this interview you appear to want to oversimplify the paradigms. What Rod is dealing with = evidential paradigms that do not isolate religion from science. Rod has said more clearly elsewhere that science and religion MUST eventually align. We could otherwise ask the question/s, "are, or can mortals smarter than God?" - - - If we answer that mortals are smarter than God, we're not interpreting God correctly. I found Rod's questioning of vast voids amid scientific exaggerations and generalization/s to be very refreshing here. Take a marble stone too that has varying shapes and the paradigm that we slice the crust of the earth to reveal a way over-generalized core is a refreshing question to pose. It's likely varying materials amid varying locations.
Whether you agree with Rod on his conclusions or not, people in the world who challenge current scientific beliefs and engage in research to provide different contexts and perspectives to scientific beliefs are indeed contributing to the growth of knowledge we can tap into as humanity and it is a worthwhile effort. We can either sit and never challenge widely held scientific conclusions or we can engage in discovery and research to support or refute the scientific conclusions we currently hold. Whether you agree with rod or not I think you have to admire his curious mind and efforts to explore different perspectives and explanations.
I know I’m late to this, but it had to be said somewhere. Hawking is an incredibly respected figure in science communication around the Big Bang. However, what he taught was literally the exact opposite of what was said by Rod. But not only is this wrong, but you could make the case that Hawking built his public career around debunking ideas like “knowing what came before the Big Bang” or “the Big Bang came from nothing”. But even more importantly, Hawking demonstrated that time itself breaks down as you (conceptually) approach the beginning of the Big Bang. So “before the Big Bang” is kinda a nonsense sentence from a physics perspective. It makes sense to the layman. But to a physicist, the word “Before” is a word used to describe a relationship within time. There literally wasn’t TIME for a concept like “before” to exist in. Hawking built a public career trying to explain these impossibly complicated nuances. It’s a shame they’re being so misinterpreted. I’m a little disappointed. Science denial is usually silly, but this is just bold faced making things up. Saying that the man who described Hawking Radiation wrote about something as nonsensical as BEFORE an event horizon. It just looks like Rod isn’t even trying. I expected a slightly more sophisticated argument for some reason.
I've been excited and nervous about this one since the last one. This was really hard to listen to.... but so important. This illustrates the great divide so well
John is extremely smooth. He is incredibly skilled with the microphone and his art of interviewing. Not only does he have an incredible radio voice and soft tone but he has a very wonderful, sly way of changing the subject when it isn’t going well for him. And profusely apologizing “I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am not trying to be disrespectful” while he cuts off Rod and changes the subject to something that fits his narrative to the most controversial topics. He makes him feel Ok about it while literally cutting him off and saying “we will cover that later, put it in the show notes” then to later never return to it. And change it to something more controversial about the church. where he can ask a yes or no question of Rod. Case and point: When a direct quote from a highly respected scientist said something comes from nothing in a Big Bang. Then changes the topic and brings it somehow to joseph smith was a treasure digger. WHAT A MASTERFUL CHANGE of topic. Not even related but it continues to seed doubt so he wants to hammer on the hard questions and get off of the Big Bang mumbo jumbo.
Thank you! John's interviewing style here was extremely disengenuous and frustrating. "Let's not get into the science; just yes or no." And changing the subject when things didn't go his way. John presented strawman after strawman for Rod to agree with or disagree with without showing any interest in hearing what Rod actually believes and why.
I find it interesting how he denies up and down that Joseph never used the stone in the hat for the translation, yet right on the church website it specifically states that Joseph used the stone in the hat during the translation.
@@beccnae14 it's a great question. I have a gay son and my Mormon parents believe he shouldn't be allowed to date or marry someone he loves. Mormons oppose gay relationships, and LGBTQ rights. This harms countless people, divides families unnecessarily, and is an unethical belief. Apologists succeed in fooling people like my parents who continue to be members of an abusive cult/church.
The fact is that zero information about the celestial kingdom and Mormons version of heaven and hell (discussion on Catholics etc) NONE is found in the Bible OR the BOM- nowhere did Jesus Christ HIMSELF teach ANYTHING like that. Am I wrong about that ? Please correct me and show me where CHRIST taught about kingdoms, sealings, eternal marriage and pre mortal existence.
I am a never mo & hearing this is so incredibly eye opening. I appreciate this channel so much for attempting to help others find the truth in their religion because this man if he is really looked up to in the church is single handedly going to ruin the young generation. These kids and other humans having to be diminished by their faith is heartbreaking
I appreciate that John pushed back on Rod and made him sit with how others are impacted by his statements because RM’s whole attitude through this whole series has felt very “my truth is right because I believe it and everyone else be damned”
John, I completely agree that different voices need to be heard. And I love the long format. I’m an LGTB+ ally and the thing about Rod that bothered me most is his insistence that people who aren’t like him have CHOSEN to go against the church or “god.” If you are gay, trans, dark skinned, female you didn’t choose to be that way … that’s just who you are.
Overall, I enjoyed the interview. There were times when John kept interrupting Rod when he was trying to provide some context to his response [non science related context] and I wish John had let him finish. However, overall, I enjoyed the interview and I am glad that Rod was able to share his story. I disagree with many of Rod's conclusions but I was still interested to hear his perspective. I really hope there is another video where the science is discussed. Opinions are one thing. Scientific evidence is something else. And, there is much to be said about scientific consensus.
@@ng7m-ham-shack You may believe Rod's reasoning for his beliefs is less interesting than his beliefs but I don't. Like I said, I disagree with many of Rod's conclusions. And, it is because I disagree with his conclusions that I am interested in his reasoning for his beliefs. That is why I hope there is another video with scientists so that they can get into the science behind what he believes. That is what I am interested in.
I know many who support my view. No one has come out in an open endorsement, but I know there are some who espouse the basic idea of it. I don't know that for absolute certainty and we can't verify ANYTHING, so I think it's better to just say "don't know". That's the kind of responses that are painful and is why people don't want him to be interviewed. That there are General Authority Emeritus who support the Heartland Model is an acceptable answer. Even if we disagree that the Heartland Model is true. The painful part is Rod moving from "I know" to "I don't know for absolute certain because we can't know ANYTHING" to "it's best to just say don't know". Just start with "I don't know because none of them has openly endorsed my view."
omg he admitted it. "i choose to have faith, i choose to believe, then i gotta have to try to find evidences and things that back up that belief" he's admitting to starting from his conclusion and working his way back looking only for evidence that supports it.
Carah i have to say you are so knowledgeable . I’m very impressed. You can bring up information I’ve never researched or learned and you know so much about so many things. WOW!! You’re just awesome in my opinion.
So, according to this guy, the lamanites took all of the spoils of war from the nephites after cummorah. Helmets, shields, swords, scimitars etc. and that’s why there’s no archeological evidence for the battle, but then wouldn’t those spoils of war be found back in lamanite territory? Wouldn’t the lamanites see how these weapons and stuff were made, and then replicate it? Nope 👎
One thing that I've noticed, is the way all the TBM's carry on about this huge battle involving 1000s upon 1000s of people.......yet, how come this has never been picked up as an episode on the History channel or similar documentary in main stream media 🤔....you'd think that something of this magnitude would generate some interest......oh, hang on, that's right.....it's all BS..🙄
Interviewers keep throwing Rod's wanting to present evidence under the bus. . . Evidence is what the interviewers insist on having but they're not letting it be presented.
The temperature adaptation Rod’s talking about re:golf is something that was already created through evolution hundreds of thousands (to potentially millions) of years ago. It’s not an evolutionary adaptation that happened since he moved to Arizona-he already had the makeup for it to happen, it just got “switched on” because he moved somewhere where it was necessary. Oh boy, this whole interview. Absolutely absurd hearing Rod discuss evolution and the age of the earth.
I appreciate Rod for coming on and sharing his views. I actually think he was quite brave to do so. I don’t agree with him at all but it’s important hear what others believe and to document his and his followers’ beliefs. He seems like an interesting guy with whom I would enjoy having a conversation as long as it was not about Mormonism, his theories, etc. Thank you John and Carah for going the distance with him.
He said so many hateful things, I don't understand why that seemed to have little effect on you. He wants to erase the entire Indigenous experience on this land, superimposing a fake narrative over the top in order to bolster the ridiculous lies of an uneducated white man that himself was a pedophile. He actually said pedophilia and bestiality are forms of homosexuality. Wow. What?
Could Joseph Smith have possibly known that his con would work so well that in 2022, there will be people willing to completely divorce reality to keep it alive?
Was this supposed to be an interview or a debate? The format was better than Pt2, but was arduous to listen to. Im trying to understand Rod's position, but there was still too much argument, debate, and trying to play 'gotcha' that got in the way. It had too much of a Cathy Newman 'what you're saying is' disingenuous reframing. Stop trying to find agreement, and instead try to seek understanding.
This is PAINFUL. His answers are bad enough on their own. But he is constantly cutting them off, avoiding answering questions directly, and is very arrogant in his answers. Ugh so bad.
“I’m gonna open this and take a walk around the room” Carah describing each and every one of us every 5 minutes in this video. I don’t understand the whole “If I can’t get my faith and actual scientific fact to correlate then I’ll choose my faith” nonsense whilst arguing with such conviction that your faith is in fact FACT. Tbh I love when John and Carah get heated, it makes it more realistic. To sit by and let somebody say racist things or pretend things are fact when they have no actual evidence would be fake.
Rod strikes me as someone who is mostly self-taught, probably starting with the kind of outdated materials that can be found at some public libraries and online for free on self-made websites by non-experts. I respect Rod's curiosity and willingness to learn but I definitely think it's possible he's gone down some roads that have been discredited in recent years. I really think it can be good, if you're interested in these topics, Rod, to consider taking extension classes or even looking into MOOCs online. Yale, Stanford etc also have some great recorded classes that are available on CZcams. By which I mean: they recorded some popular courses, you hear the exact same lecture the students heard and even some of the responses to the questions that were asked at the time.
Rod said in the Part 1 of his interview with John and Carah, that he “likes learning, just not things that are not true.” I suspect that approach to learning is going to rule out Yale, Stanford, and just about any other serious educational pursuit. Motivated reasoning is strong with this one.
I don’t have a problem with being self taught. Rod’s problem is that he does not keep integrity and consistency with logic. Science is evil and should be discarded unless it agrees with him then it should be used as the authority. He is the embodiment of confirmation bias. He is so far up his own ass smelling his own bullshit that it’s impossible for him to not be completely biased. They to me doesn’t come from being self taught but from being completely brainwashed into an orthodox view of religion. Two different problems imo.
After watching this...I have a lot of thoughts. First and foremost, John and Carah we love you both. Second, I think something that might be helpful for these episodes is putting a content warning or a trigger warning in the description box. It's not a perfect solution, but a lot of content creators (including us) do it to help people be aware of potential triggers if we can. If people watch live they do so at their own risk, but if they are watching the episodes later on I think it would be further respectful of the viewers who may be triggered by topics or not have the emotional space for topics such as homophobia or racism. As a member of the LGBTQ+ community, I am glad Carah and John were there to advocate but it still was extremely triggering and I wish he would have just said his beliefs align with Mormonism regarding being gay is a sin and a choice. He could have left it at that. But instead, he went on to elaborate with vile comments which were extremely offensive to the community which (even with allies there) threatens the safety of the space. With the previous episode's comments about racism and his comments about the LGBTQ+ community, I almost don't know if it's really worth allowing him your platform. There may be no right answer there and I liked John's points at the end. It's a hard thing to balance. Third, the first half of this episode was extremely difficult to watch. I think for men (and women) in the ex-mormon space there is a lot to unpack with patriarchy and misogyny. Rod & John interrupted Carah quite a bit in the first half - practically anytime she spoke she was interrupted. I understand tensions are high and the topics are intense, but it did (at least in the first half) reflect some traditional mormon patriarchy. Rod interrupted incessently during the whole episode. It seemed to me like Carah's points were getting lost in the intensity of the conversation at times. I honestly don't know how Carah kept it together during this episode. It was maddening to watch. I think it improved during the second half of the episode when John gave her more of the floor to speak, but there was a lot of "mansplaining" happening and some condescension sent her way throughout (even if it wasn't and likely wasn't intentional). I think this a necessary reminder for us all that it was difficult for women to exist in mormon spaces, and it is still difficult for women to exist in ex-mormon spaces. This holds even more true for women of color which is something Rod really has no understanding of and no intent to listen or learn. I appreciate the efforts of men like John in the ex-mormon space who are aware of this and are continuing to work on it - it's a continual process and we all can grow more. I agree with what John stated in the last bit. I understand the intent of demonstrating the effects of Mormonism on individuals. Rod has a lot of followers, but I would definitely still consider this a brand of Mormon extremism. I truly don't know the right answer for this situation. It's important for people to see the negativity of Mormonism and how it can turn into mormon extremism and bigotry, but I also don't want to give people who spew hateful things a larger platform to do so. I think John and Carah are onto something with expanding the view so it's not an echo chamber of exmormonism, but I think restructuring the interview would have made viewers more comfortable. If Rod really wanted to get his point across that being gay is sinful, he could simply state that his views and beliefs align with mainstream Mormonism in that sense. He doesn't need to add in homophobic, transphobic, and other outrageous comments. I appreciated John's efforts to keep him on track, but Rod doesn't have the ability to regulate so it's just not a realistic expectation for him to be able to reign it in. There would have to be extremely rigid boundaries in place for him to not say blatantly homophobic and racist comments and consequences if he did it anyway. I think for me, ideally, I would have loved to have focused on the model and his beliefs that are unique to the model. Being harmful to the LGBTQ+ community and dissing on women isn't unique to Rod's brand of mormonism. I would have liked to have spent the majority of the focus on those things (which was attempted initially) and setting really firm boundaries with Rod around bigotry. It's one thing to say being gay is a choice and a sin (still harmful but I see how it is necessary for the context of the conversation), it's another thing to make the comparisons he made today which were vile. I personally don't think there should be any kind of further elaboration from Rod on the podcast unless it's a genuine apology with intent to do better. I think most of us know that qualified experts would refute most of his claims. I don't think it will cause Rod to change or think more critically. He made his points clear during the episodes, he knows the other information is out there and evidence counters his claims. But he doesn't care. All in all, sorry for the essay. But I had to put this out there as I know Carah & John listen and care about their listeners. Love y'all.
Agree how triggering this was!! In regards to this, was hoping for time stamps, as MSP does most interviews. So one could skip over what they knew would be problematic for them. However, the insane way in which Rod cannot stay on topic, every answer he's literally All over the place, how could John accurately time stamp? I'd be pulling my hair out! !! Love you Jordan and McKay ♡
I think someone has to grow to understand how what they've done or said is hurtful to truly apologize. It seems clear that Rod genuinely believes in the (truly disgusting and offensive) comparisons he made about LGBTQ+ individuals. A part of me feels badly for him, because I feel it comes from a real place of ignorance and a lack of experience and understanding (even if plenty of that may be willful). I relate to some extent to that struggle to understand things that didn't fit into the churches paradigm. It takes work and willingness to be uncomfortable and see your own ignorance to ever be able to see outside of that and come to understand others experience. It was definitely sickening and triggering to listen to, but I also think that it's a solid example of the warped confusion members can go through trying to make sense out of nonsense. It's nonsense that an all powerful, all loving God would make people who don't have a place in his eternal plan, yet that's what it looks like, if you believe the gospel of the Mormon church. It's all too relatable, sadly. This is part of the damage that the church has caused, people grow up without an understanding of basic things about life and reality, and it leads them to hurt others. I'm not at all trying to say that is worse than what LGBTQ+ people go through, but I do think there is value in addressing it. It's such a tricky minefield to get through.
“Hawking showed that the Steady State theory is mathematically self-contradictory. He argued instead that the universe began as an infinitely small, infinitely dense point called a singularity. “ “we would note that quite near what might have otherwise been the beginning, time gives way to space such that at first there is only space and no time. Beginnings are entities that have to do with time; because time did not exist before the Big Bang, the concept of a beginning of the universe is meaningless” Not nothing
Never-In and cult watcher here. I’m listening this with trepidation and gonna try to not make eye rolling comments. We’ll see how that goes. Maybe I’ll have an edible to get through it.
As offensive as it was (maybe add trigger warnings to the time stamps?) I am glad it was live-streamed and is on CZcams uncut so people can’t criticise his horrific comments as being “edited” or “taken out of context by apostates”.
whoa. carah, good f-ing job. im in tears over your fruits of the church questioning. so so so well said. thats the crux of the issue. so many who have left the church see others pain with empathy.
I started questioning the church because I realized I wasn't happy there. I always tried to be what other people wanted me to be and it made me feel horrible every time I went to church. That was the start of my journey out.
I agree with your long form format, and giving voice to all sides of the discussion. We need to come to the table, and this is helping to facilitate. Good Job John and Carah!
It all sounds good as long as you accept the assumptions and possibilities. But without the mental gymnastics it’s obvious that it’s craziness. My boss said to me many years ago when I was trying to get him to accept something “if ifs and buts were candy and nuts the world would be a sweeter place”. If it’s and buts we’re candy and nuts I would agree with Rodney. To think I accepted this at face value once.
Carah at 4:26 the statement you make here, that HE needs to hear... As a white person, I'm glad I'm here with you Carah. There's so many who look like us who NEED to hear this. Thank you!
Much better than the race episode!! But I hope you use give relevant experts (eg Simon Southerton) time to respond to every single issue. This would be much better done in a “debate”/conversation style episode, but I also don’t want these positions repeated again 😂
An extended reaction video response from Simon and other experts please! Including a NeverMormon for outside perspective. Carah and John have been valiant in this existence in these interviews ;) but can only do so much in refuting Rod's sheer nonsense, and worse, dangerous, harmful anti-science beliefs masquerading in the cloak of research. He is a perfect example of pseudo-intellectualism and science. Seems like a nice guy, but a terrible thinker.
I was interested in learning what the Heartland Model was. Way too much time was spent duking it out about what Rod’s belief in Joseph Smith, the founding, belief in church leaders, etc. It would have been simpler to get to the point by starting with the understanding that Rod is a TBB and let him present his Heartland Model.
Note to Rod: Let me start with a quote from E.T. Benson: “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon." I only have one word for you Rod. Dendrochronology. It's a simple but unequivocal dating method cross-referencing tree rings that solidly date back beyond the young earth model you are trying to support. Tree rings express historical events such as fires, drought, etc. Simply stated, by examining tree rings of living as well as older dead trees within a geographic location, an accurate chronology in years can be reconstructed. By simply comparing C14 dating to dendrodating, C14 is established as an accurate measure of time and is applied successfully to archaeological (human) material remains dating back in the least, here in the Americas to 13,000 years, and up to 55,000 years bp elsewhere. So thus, Rod, your belief on the age of the earth is verifiably wrong based on dendrodating and C14 and according to E.T., your entire thesis crumbles to dust where it suffers an ignominious death like unto Nehor of BofM fame. So sorry to have to tell you of this... all the best on your recovery.
I’ve been nervous about this episode and after the last one I wasn’t even sure you’d have him on again… Good on you guys for pushing back against his hypocrisy and cherry-picking, and shutting things down when needed. I’m not sure getting him back a fourth time with scientists is worth it for you or for the community… he’s not going to listen to them.
I took evolutionary science at BYU in the early 80s. Even then we knew evolution to be a reality. Fifteen minutes in and this guy is in crazy land. Earth, keep trying, humans may be a step in the right direction, but you can do, well, you can do better.
The most frustrating part of this interview: John or Carah: (Makes excellent point, very problematic for the church) Rod: "Yeah, yeah, right. I agree and here's some insane explanation as to why your point actually supports my point"
Pretty sure Hawking said the opposite. If the big bang happened it was from a singularity. THAT was what he said. A singularity is everything. Not nothing.
Two words: Carah. Burrell. And my God in heaven. Please don't let there be tens of thousands of people who look up to Rod Meldrum as an intellectual authority.
It’s that “slippery slope” :) Conservative Mormons see sexual preference as a spectrum/gradient from heterosexual/normal/good to deprived and perverted. Wonder where polygamy and pedogamy fall on that scale.
I’m only about 51 minutes in, but I think it’s very interesting that Rod is willing to say that church leaders can make statements as men rather than representing the church, but every statement Stephen Hawking makes is representing science.
Does seem like a bit of a double standard
I think he also has so little understanding of how science or scholarship work that he imagines that Stephen Hawking had a similar control over science as LDS prophets hold over Mormon doctrine.
Awesome observation!!!
If you listen to the whole part of that conversation that’s not what he is saying a all
Also, I suspect the book he's talking abut is the first one, but Stephen Hawking later changed his mind, saying it's not true that before the big bang and the expansion it wasn't nothing, which is what he originally thought.
The root of all of this is “I believe my feelings are a reliable way to determine what’s true.”
feeling something doesn't make it true. it's a ridiculous notion to entertain. imo
It's not just religious individuals who hold that idea though. There's plenty of societal issues right now where woke-ism is being propelled and forced upon the world with feelings being the primary motives.
@@bryanteresabushar8294 And this is the entire premise of Mormonism...
@Taylor Holden Wokism (as bizarre and manufactured by the right wing media a term as it is), is totally justifiable through evidence based systems, that's why it is such a dominant world view in academia. It can provoke emotions because it's primarily about the awareness of injustice and seeking to find a remedy for that injustice. That doesn't mean it is based on just emotion. I would suggest though the rage and fear it provokes in it's critics, is much more so, when it's not entirely manufactured propagandist theatre designed to protect the status quo. I wonder who you let define wokeness for you? Is it those who defend it or is it people who share your views? Do you really trust them to accurately represent those values they clearly hold in such low esteem?
@@labgrunt1961for some people it is. Honestly though, the LDS premise is study it, seeking information out of any valuable source. Study it out, and then approach God with whatever outcome you found through your own studies and thoughts. I’m not talking about LDS culture or the culture of certain members. I’m talking about the doctrine that is actually taught
This really is one of the most important Mormon Stories interviews! Rod represents a huge portion of TBM’s. It is really important to have this on record and to shine a light on these views. Because, they are prevalent!
John Dehlin being racist in late 2020: czcams.com/video/4RDuUm8TW5w/video.html
At around 4:30:00 when John asks him to "sit with it," I found this really beautiful. It felt like a meaningful moment of true invitation for reflection, instead of pushing back and turning into an argument. This was an incredibly triggering part of the interview, and I think John and Carah both were great examples of how to disagree in a respectful way, without losing their own voices. How emotionally exhausting this had to be though! I'm exhausted and I was just listening! Thank you for the genuine, heartfelt work you're all doing ❤️
I agree. This part was both triggering and inspiring at the same time. My heart beat has been pounding through this whole episode. I get so angry at Rods closed mindedness and refusal to listen. But I've been so impressed with Jon's handling of it.
He’s the king of “wha happen was…” for every fallacy. “The new dawn blooms as we free it. For there is always light if only we’re brave enough to see it. If only we’re brave enough to be it.” (Amanda Gorman) John Dehlin is shining the light.
Amen!
I also have to say, I really appreciate John's therapy background, it shows and I feel it adds so much depth and value. Carah is so brilliant and articulate, on top of being super funny. She's a deep breath of fresh air, pretty much always!
I think John and Cara were very unprofessional and rude during this "unbiased" session. I don't care which way you believe or they believe. The guest was treated so disrespectful I was shocked and disappointed. I expect more from the hosts
@@tawneenielsen4080 Rodney also was “disrespectful” then if you consider John and carah to be. It was hours long discussion of opposing and conflicting opinions and beliefs, and unbiased opinions will come through in a discussion like that, even if the majority is nuance and the people are great at discussing nuance things. An example is that Rod literally called John and Carah “lost sheep” which I would consider offensive if I were them, but John understands that’s his perspective and moves on to continue the discussion, which I respect. I think everyone did the best they could for what this discussion was.
@@tawneenielsen4080 hm, that's an interesting take. I listened to this at double speed, and while tired, so it's possible I missed something. What specifically made you think this?
@@sophiej1987 John and Cara are the hosts. I expect more from them especially as they preach that they are against certain dogmatic behaviors. That means they should be completely objective. John and Cara both wanted to give long discourses, yet when Rod ( who I know nothing about other than this podcast) would try to explain an answers John would interupt " that's a yes or a no". Rod never said that to him. John, no explaining, that's a yes or a no. John kept throwing out Strawman analogies. I disagreed each time he stated that. So unprofessional. Different opinions and ideas are great, but being so rude to a guest, well, I unsubscribed after this one. John and Cara need to realize I had been listening to hear different views, and they take over every conversation to meet their ideals.
@@sophiej1987 they asked him to be on their show. Rids opinions, professionally speaking, should be objective but subjective. John should know better with his training. They turn into rants instead of conversation.
As crazy as this episode/ series is, I actually like the idea of having orthodox believing members on the show for two reasons:
1. I don’t want the exmormon space to become an echo chamber.
2. It exposes how harmful and crazy these beliefs can be. If we only have exmormons and nuanced members on it’s harder to challenge the orthodoxy.
Very much agree with both of these points.
It's so so so important to take a break from nonstop affirmation of what you already believe. The more you challenge your current ideas/beliefs the closer you get to the truth.
Also, yes, I can't tell you how many times I've heard "well the CES letter was disturbing but it wasn't until I started looking up apologetic arguments that I decided to leave the church." There's a lot to be learned from watching people like Rod do the most complicated of mental gymnastics in their heads while they reach for some way, any way, to maintain a very clearly absurd belief. To quote Jeffrey R Holland, "it must be done by crawling over or under or around" the obvious problems with the Book of Mormon.
It's plain to see that they're trying to hold on to any excuse to still believe, no matter how absurd.
That is one of the things I like best about John and Mormon Stories, unlike some other Mormon podcasts where they only want one viewpoint presented John is not afraid to listen to both sides.
I agree! More tbms on here would be great. I
Yes! The truth will win out, I have to believe, and it would be senseless to turn a community that so uniquely understands and empathizes with how it feels to be the 'outcast' into one that will only ever hear out those who confirm what that community already believes.
John Dehlin being racist in late 2020: czcams.com/video/4RDuUm8TW5w/video.html
Commenting as a student of science and as a Christian, I have never said “what?!” so many times while listening to your podcasts until now. You cannot change the mind of a uneducated autodidactic narcissist. He doesn’t know how to be wrong. He won’t allow himself to be educated. Such a frustrating episode… again.
John and Carah: you both are amazing examples in patience.
Literally every time he tries to make a scientific claim he is wrong. Every single time. You got to admit that amount of ignorance takes effort.
I could not listen to much this. Meldrum is an absolute buffoon posing as an intellectual. It’s painful to listen to such confused, convoluted, and willfully ignorant reasoning being presented as a legitimate perspective. John gave him way too much time on the show in my opinion.
What do you mean by science?
@@Jacobs.photos You mean the same science that believes men can be pregnant? You mean that politically correct false science?
“Carbon dating can be accurate up until the flood” -Rodney Meldrum
At that point I’ve just gotta laugh out loud.
Massive respect for Carah and John and their level of poise and compassion throughout the episode.
The half life of Carbon 14 is 5,730 years.
There is actually a point where it is no longer accurate.
I’ve been pacing myself through this story, Rod. I make it a point to listen to people all the way, even when I disagree vehemently.
You tell us you understand how we feel when you call *our love for the most important people in our lives* the same as *pedophilia and bestiality*. When have you ever been compared to those atrocities? Assuming you understand a situation without asking questions or learning anything shows me how much you actually care…
My love for my wife is not perverted. It’s not sick. We both grew up loving God and learning how to love by taking His words seriously. Jesus taught me to *love first* and be the *last* to judge. Paul taught me that we are all the same in Christ. No male, no female, no Jew or Gentile, no slave or free man. Why do believers insist on holding onto these labels and dogma?
Rod. Please. LISTEN to more *LGBTQ+* stories. Take a break from talking and listen more. You don’t have to change your opinion, but maybe it will help you expand your compassion. 💜
Its hard to hate up close. Discomfort - move in.
John Dehlin being racist in late 2020: czcams.com/video/4RDuUm8TW5w/video.html
Nope. It won't. He is the king of his world, he doesn't have to worry about how the peasants live.
Somebody get this guy a leotard, his mental gymnastics are world-class. Rod has successfully put the square peg into the round hole but it was mess. And the round hole is disfigured now.
years ago i would’ve watched this and thought, “yes!! thank you rod for standing up for the truth! how brave.” as i’m listening to this now all that’s going through my head is “this man the most arrogant, privileged, brainwashed, disrespectful human i’ve heard speak in a long time.” he wasn’t willing to listen to anything carah and john had to say even when they were blatantly telling him what he was saying was deeply offensive. the way he interrupted them the whole episode is exactly how mormon men make women feel on a daily basis… not important.
on the other hand, I did like having the different perspective mixed in on the mormon stories channel. it reminds me why i left, & why i will continue to speak up about how mormonism hurts people and all the damage it causes.
@@christinamarston2421
He KNOWS he has the truth, so he can't be offensive.
@@christinamarston2421 in his mind he doesn't need to be empathetic because he is fighting for God's truth. For hardcore religious fanatics running the risk of offending people is trivial in contrast with proclaiming godly truth. You will never convince this man he is wrong.
A debate between RFM, John Larsen, and Rodney Meldrum. I would pay to see that.
4:25:57 Amazing points Carah 👏🏼 Everyone needs (tbm’s and exmos included) to hear and understand that the church benefits some, but it severely damages and harms many others. Thank you for being a voice for those many others.
Thanks but that was really hard to articulate! Ugh so much pain in what I was trying to communicate!
I totally agree! It was very clearly, articulately, and I thought, compassionately put. Honestly, beautiful job Carah 👏👏👏👏
Absolutely amazing job once again Carah. You were very clear and articulate. I can not wait to see your interview from RFM.
@@CarahBurrell You did an amazing job in those circumstances! I would have tried to get my points across, he would’ve responded like he did to you, and I would’ve started crying and no one would’ve understood 😅 So kudos to you for keeping it together 👏🏼
@nuancehoe you made some very heartfelt commentary. You are a strong, ass person. You are sincerely the best.
I decided to watch this series because I wanted to understand why Carah chose to leave the podcast. I've gotten through parts 1 and 2 with lots of cussing and incredulous laughter, and I fully understand her choice. I want to stick this out, so we'll see if I can make it through part 3, but this is without questions one of the most disturbing conversations I've ever heard.
This conversation is psychologically fascinating. So much effort is required to maintain an untenable position.
It was especially fascinating watching this after the fallacies episode with John Larsen
Hey apparently he’s the discoverer of its tenability 😂
I had to leave this episode for more reasons than one. Proceeded with caution, everyone.
Will this be part of this evening's discussion? 😂😂
you were on fire Carah.
What time do you leave during the podcast?? I’m trying to find it
Parts of this episode were painful for me to listen to. I understand why what he said was offensive, but I think we must understand that many of us held those same beliefs just a few years ago, and it shouldn't be a surprise that there are people who are (hopefully not far) behind us. I think you guys handled the conversation appropriately especially based on the fact that there likely are vulnerable audience members listening to this. On the other hand, I don't think it is always the best to shut down a conversation/topic because you are uncomfortable with it. I think it can be helpful to air out bad ideas and let people realize the err (or truth) in what they are saying.
Carah, you are a force. Thank you for your courage and dedication. I can only imagine how retraumatizing it was to be treated with such disrespect.
Rod doing research is not going to change his mind because he knows that everything in the Book Of Mormon is true. And nothing can change that truth.
It's just painful to hear Rod's double-speak.
It's not so much that the beliefs are painful - it's the contortions and trying to stick him to a concrete answer that are excruciating.
What bothers me when lay persons say "research" it usually involves them using the first five hits that appear on Google searches. No library, no textbooks, no academic journals, archives, or data sites used.
For many people his sweeping erasure of Native Americans and white washing of genocide is very painful.
The only thing I agreed with Rod about: Fair Mormon apologetics leads people out of the church!
However, I believe Rod’s defenses are equally myopic and would lead people out of the church as fast or faster. Just my opinion.
This entire episode was like banging my head against the wall. I believe Rod is 100% sincere and I admire his passion but I do not admire his critical thinking skills. Nobody likes it when people start with a conclusion and ignore evidence and/or embrace logical
Fallacies by the dozen in order to prove that conclusion. It’s not a good method for determining truth!
Also, the way Rod speaks about LGBTQ+ is highly offensive! He needs LGBTQ+ people in his life to help him understand and love them.
I don't think that this episode is for everyone if it ends up hurting too much. For me, it would be extremely hurtful to come face to face with some of the harmful rhetoric I've encountered in my life (like justifying abuse, specifically of women). That being said, what an important episode to have. This exposes so much. Even though some of us aren't in a place to listen to parts of this (and no shame for that!), I think it was extremely important to honestly discuss opposing beliefs. When I was a member of the LDS church, there were certain things/topics that were painful for me to hear, and now I'm on the opposite end where I've embraced and better understand those uncomfortable topics. These conversations are where growth happens. Spotlighting issues instead of canceling them is important, and ignorance is to be pitied and challenged.
I'm a nevermo but fascinated by high demand religions and love Mormon stories podcast. Thank you to everyone involved.
Rod certainly has a masters degree in "whataboutism". Im not expert in theology or the specifics of the science and history discussed but when he got got to an area that I am very familiar with (NAGPRA the Native American graves protection and repatriation act) it was so painfully obvious how he just makes up things that sound kinda right and presents them as fact (nagpra is not and has not ever been about absolutely every object in a museum collection, but rather those that are human remains, sacred, funerary, or culturally significant). We are in no danger of not being able to tell the stories of native cultures full stop. Museums tell stories without actual artifacts ALL the time. But also the process of repatriation has opened so many doors to cultural sharing and collaboration that has deeply shifted the relationship between institutions and many tribes, mostly for the better. Is it hard sometimes? Yeah. Is it sometimes a little messy? Absolutely. But I wonder how rod feels about the video recordings from inside the temple being shared widely or about Mormon garments and temple dress or even the bones of Joseph smith being publicly displayed. Somehow I think that might be less of a grey area for him than this question of whether human remains and sacred objects should be returned to the descendants of the cultures they belonged to.
So brilliant. Thank you @Catherine Dean.
Such a great point!
Excellent response. 👏
Rodney Meldrum, according to himself:
Not a historian - Smarter than historians.
Not a geologist - Smarter than geologists.
Not an archaeologist - Smarter than archeologists.
Not a biologist - Smarter than biologists.
Not a physicist - Smarter than physicists.
Not an academic in any way - Smarter than all academics.
These podcasts were difficult to get through but I wanted to really give this guy a chance and hear him out. Having done so, I'd say he's just ignorant, close-minded, unwilling to question his assumptions about the world. I found it hilarious that he thought flat earthers were laughably stupid, but he believes in a 6,000 year old earth and Noah's ark "cause the scriptures..". That's laughably stupid and people like him are in the same camp as the flat earthers in my opinion. This starfish will stay on the fucking beach, thank you very much.
I had to watch this after hearing how much this series negatively affected Cara… and I get it. It’s disturbing to know there are people walking around on this planet in modern day USA that thinking this way. I may have actual nightmares 😰😱
I'm here for the same reason. I wasn't interested in this episode until I heard it was Carah's last one. I haven't finished it yet but I've been reading the comments and I'm worried for some of the ending sections
@@leahtheanimationfan40 never expected to come across a mio pfp I'm a place like this lol
Hey, simple suggestion that would be easy to implement: when you're doing a "part 2" (or 3 etc) interview: Could you link to the previous installments in the description? Likewise to related interviews with other guests, when applicable.
This episode has undone a lot of therapy for me and I'm probably not alone. As much as I've always wanted to hear more believers on Mormon Stories, this one is a DOOZY.
Sounds like you need a lot more than therapy. Sounds like you need to learn how to live around other people that have opinions other than yours. Wow what a sad life you must have. Pretending that your so offended or hurt by someone else’s opinion. Your life must be a DOOZY.
Carah, carah, carah!! From one millenial to the next, Carah youre a queen!! How you kept your composure, is beyond me. As a women and a millenial with a voice of my own, I am so proud of you for your behaviour because I could not have done the same. This guy is clearly crazzzyy. Lots of hugs and positive vibes all the way from Australia!
Whoooooo thanks!
@@CarahBurrell I completely understand why you decided to part from Mormon Stories after this interview. It was extremely difficult to listen to. Keep gracing us with your humor because we are here for it!
I appreciate Carah’s attempts to lighten the mood, haha. Not easy to do!
Thank you for interviewing a believing Mormon. This kind of dialogue I find interesting and engaging. Hearing why someone believes is as instructive to me as hearing why someone doesn’t. Well done.
I find it extremely difficult to listen to episodes like this because believers ALWAYS end up lying or being dishonest or disingenuous. I haven’t made it to the end of this yet so I’m not sure what I think of him yet.
Rod: your comments at 33:10 about experiencing evolution when you lived in Arizona suggest to me that you might be fundamentally misunderstanding the theory of evolution. Organic evolution doesn't occur in the lifetime of a single individual; it's INTERGENERATIONAL. Whatever adaptations your body made to the heat when you were out golfing did not involve changes to your genetic code and therefore had little or nothing to do with organic evolution. Evolution would look more like this:
Let's say a prehistoric Rod Meldrum, fleeing a band of invading Neanderthals, winds up on the edge of a desert. It's terribly hot, but safe, so he decides to make a go of it. Rod and his mate have five kids--this is where the process of evolution starts to kick in. Each of Rod's kids is a mix of him and his mate, with some random mutations thrown in there for good measure. Let's say one kid, Susie, has genes that make her slightly better adapted to the desert than any of the other kids. She sweats a little less and therefore loses less water. She is a bit thinner and thus has a slightly lower surface-to-mass ratio, meaning her body can dissipate heat more effectively. Etc, etc. Susie thrives in the desert, has more kids than any of her siblings, and her kids (being random variations of her) inherit some of that desert aptitude as well.
Meanwhile another kid, Gustav, HATES the desert. For whatever reason, his genetic makeup is such that he just can't handle the heat. He hates the desert so much that he leaves and wanders all the way down to a frozen tundra 200 miles south. Much better, he decides. Gustav thrives in the tundra; eventually, he finds a mate and their kids, for the most part, thrive in the tundra as well.
Give it a few hundred or thousand years, and you can see how the Susie-ites and the Gustavites might start to have noticeably different traits, adapted to their environments. Now if we jump to hundreds of thousands or millions of years and beyond (vast amounts of time beyond our experience or comprehension), you can imagine how much the environment could change and differentiate these two groups. The desert, generation after generation, favors and rewards any random mutations that are advantageous to desert-dwelling. Meanwhile the tundra favors those mutations that allow the gustavites to thrive in the cold.
Each generation, nature essentially roles the dice with random variations in genetic code, and nature rewards those mutations that are advantageous. It's big picture thing. (at least this is my understanding as a fellow layman)
Totally agree. His comments about Arizona really demonstrated how he has absolutely no clue what “evolution” even means, on a very fundamental, middle school level.
I just wonder how it is possible that actual people believe what he says. How can you take him seriously?
@@schrecksekunde2118 I guess some people can really force themselves to believe what they want, even if it makes more sense to believe the opposite
Rodney, thank you for coming on Mormon Stories...I know it wasn't easy for you, and I hope you will return. Thank you John for NOT stopping the podcast near the end, long form is great!. Also, it would be a real shame if Mormon Stories only allowed the non believing perspective to be shared.
absolutely.
Yep, everybody should hear the true horror of religious fundamentalism and the ridiculous and execrable views of these contemptible creeps.
This is like an autopsy of Mormon faith. Important work and illuminating educationally but also utterly revolting and traumatizing. I appreciate this person's transparency though. Bigotry needs to be understood and he explains it well.
I find these R Meldrum interviews to be very similar to the Gospel Topic Essays. We have a representative of the TBM community explaining what so many (not all) TBMs believe and honestly these beliefs are more toxic than any "anti-Mormon" material out there. Like I tell my friends, the Church drove me out of the Church, not Mormon Stories, Radio Free Mormon, or anti-Mormon authors. The Gospel Topic Essays broke my shelf and R Meldrum adds to that. I'm thankful he is willing to come on. I hope many TBMs listen to this interview.
I think it's really important to get this straight: Central America is a region, not a continent. There's nothing that separates "Central America" from the rest of North America, because it is literally part of North America. Also Mexico is in not in the region of Central America. It's in North America. Period. The "Central America vs. North America" argument is merely a way to "other" brown people.
Ok, all I can do is give it a thumbs up 👍. As soon as I hear the words Eve and 6000 years ago, my head exploded. So I knew I couldn't continue to listen his bullshit. You're amazing
I seriously applaud you guys for speaking about all this together. Some of this would at this moment in time be painful for me to discuss about and stay so calm and listen to. Carah you did a great job at asking those very important and tough questions near the end, and that’s something I believe everyone should hear.
I feel that it's really important to listen to people like Rod, because it's very easy for those of us who have studied collegiate level science to dismiss them, but it's people like Rod who have killed almost a million Americans with anti-mask/anti-vaccine anti-science faith. We need to understand where this comes from so we can get ahead of it and learn how to counter it. I told my partner earlier that this was the second hardest episode of Mormon Stories ever to listen to, but I was hoping to learn the language of Meldrum. He said he hoped that it could serve as a Rosetta Stone in a way. But the racist anti-LGBTQ hate speech is just so painful. He's a hate monger and doesn't even know it. (Also, Hubble was the one who quantified the Big Bang Theory, not Hawking.)
You need to see a therapist
My therapist says I'm fine. What does yours say?
I haven't even listened to the whole series, but I remember thinking how similar to the Q this guy's thinking is and how suspicious and conspiratorial he is for anything that doesn't echo his belief system. The scientists have a satanic agenda to make fake science in order to destroy the Mormon Church? Wow.
I really appreciate that Rod was invited onto the show and that he was willing to take the risk of accepting the invitation. I disagree with most of what Rod had to say, but I used to believe sort of like that, so I can understand where he is coming from.
First, John, Carah, and Gerardo do an amazing job, and I don't want my comments to take away from that. I hate to be a back-seat interviewer, but I want to make a few points. John - it didn't seem fair to ask Rod what he believes, and not give him a chance to say why. I know that you didn't want to get into the science, but there were occasions where you pushed back on him because you didn't think what he said agreed with the science, then he tried to respond and you cut him off. Second, in this situation, I think it was counter-productive to be reacting so much to audience comments. I appreciate the live interactive format, but in this episode (and also with the race episode), it seemed like you were trying to juggle being fair to Rod, and also responding to the frustrated comments of the viewers. I am sure that you didn't want the viewers to feel like you were not being tough enough on Rod. It also seemed a little unfair that Gerardo was behind the scenes fact checking, and making comments and arguments for you to raise. I feel that was counterproductive to the interview. Gerardo is great, and it would have been fine to have him part of the interview. Also, I agree with the "circling the drain" comments. There were times that I had nearly had enough of listening, and it was not because Rod was saying questionable things (and he was), but that there was too much re-stating and probing Rod from a slightly different angle.
Sorry to be critical, as you all do a great job.
I forgot to add - John, the way that you dealt with Rod when he brought up pedophilia and bestiality as "sexual orientations" was well done. Thanks for dealing with it in a calm but firm manner.
Also, I think the most important part of this podcast was to to document Rod and his thoughts. It will be there in 50 years for people to see what people like Rod were thinking at the time. I don't think that trying to change or challenge Rod's beliefs or debate with him was the point.
I am fascinated by the workings of Mr. Meldrum's brain. He has a remarkable capacity to remember and use preposterous "evidence" to defend his theory, and he is able to explain it in a clear way. He has an answer for everything. But he exhibits an equally remarkable capacity for intellectual denial and disingenuousness. Ron reminds me of the people who are claiming that this past election was stolen from Trump and can back it up with a seemingly endless supply of BS.
100% very true !!
Even if it were conclusively proven 100% that the Book of Mormon was false, even if the church confirmed it, Rod would still cling tight to the rod. He literally would stick his fingers in his ears and start screaming lalala. Confirmation bias is a terrible thing. That is why it is looked down upon in the scientific fields.
@@sdfotodude If that happened I don't think Rod would stick his fingers in his ears, he would listen closely to why the BoM was proven false and then go about "debunking" that proof with his own nonsense. You gotta hand it to Rod, he is tireless in his quest.
@@senorbb2150 Yeah he is a master of "whataboutisms" His use of circular reasoning is incredible.
@@sdfotodude I’m only 6 minutes in and his circular reasonings have me exhausted already 🤦🏻♀️
Bring Rod on to talk to the scientists! I'm really excited to see that.
Yes so the scientists can prove that rod was actually on to something
@MightyChange22 Haha, yeah I'm sure he'll school them. He really came off as a genius in this interview. Show Davinci, Newton, and Einstein to the door. Here's Rod Meldrum!
@@Tyler-2839 atleast he stood firm on what he believes in , wait till John dehlin goes into Ward radio show see what happens lol
@@MightyChange22 Hmm... You expect that if John Dehlin went on ward radio that he wouldn't stick to his beliefs?
@@Tyler-2839 the point is he wouldn’t 🤣 he wouldn’t stand the heat there , all I’m saying is anti Mormons are more likely to give a no show than Mormons 🤷♂️
I have never been a Mormon and this episode was painful to watch. People like Rod are the reason I don’t believe in any religion. All religions have their differences but one of the things that unify most of them is the believe that they know the truth and their way to worship is the only and best way to do it.
I appreciate how people like Rod are so effective at creating atheists & promoting education & critical thinking & demonstrating the true horror of religious fundamentalism. He might be horrified at the thought but that's beside the point, his efforts are a powerful promotion of truth, reason & science, just not in the way he intends.
He can be listened to as great satire of his own beliefs & church. I appreciated the guffaws he elicited from me.
“Asians” are “being nit picky” but the term “Mormon” is a victory for Satan 😂🤣🤦♀️
if anyone has low blood pressure, just listen to this rod guy and you’ll be good in no time
At 4:40ish we’re talking about basic life things that are viewed as Mormon sin tearing families apart, I have a perfect example. After 8 years of struggling as a couple to go to the Temple, we were finally “worthy” and took the temple prep classes, and then I found out my husband had been chewing tobacco again, and hiding it from me, and it literally kept our whole family from receiving those temple blessings. THAT Is a real life example of what Carah is talking about, NOT pedophilia or bestiality, chewing tobacco. Those are the simple Mormon sins that rip families apart. My poor husband carried so much guilt and shame over that. And it wasn’t just a personal “sin” it was made public by other members asking us why we weren’t going to the temple, and set us up for a public shaming. Just one of my littler shelf items that made a huge impact on my personal salvation. My husband chewing tobacco kept me from Mormon salvation.
Wow Amanda....that's crazy!.....as I'm a neverMo (well, never anything actually), did that strike you as been ridiculous or weird at the time?...
..like, "sorry mate, you can't come in here, coz you chew tobacco".....
I am so sorry
I see comments that "Rod can't give an answer" and I've watched this a few times now and John and Carah REPEATEDLY interrupt as Rod attempts to answer amid more substantive efforts.
Anyone who happens to stumble across this - review materials from Wayne May and others at your own clock. These guys keep shutting down / stopping / stonewalling / gaslighting and interrupting Rod's efforts to convey evidence and scientific and legitimate information. This was very frustrating to get through knowing that there is a whole side of evidential backdrop amid a less distracted and restrictive and freer dialog.
I’m only at the dinosaurs section and it’s already painfully clear that Rod doesn’t understand the scientific method. Or he does he and he believes God wants us to go against reason. What would he think of other religions believing equally unsubstantiated things because their scriptures make claims about them?
Honestly, I think this interview could be used to lead more people out of the church than any other episode, save maybe the Tom Phillips episode.
If Rod's reading this, I would be more than happy to sit with him and discuss the impact of his ideas and beliefs on the Mormon LGBTQ community. Rod, if you read this, feel free to reach out.
While I do not accept too much of what he said, Rod has to be complimented for his courage in coming on the show. As well John was fair while not allowing Rod to get into the science
"Listen with an open heart and open mind," says Mr. Meldrum during this interview. I wish he would take his own advice and do just that and have empathy for trying to understand certain things - such as people of color being offended by the word asianic or why comparing the LGBTQ community to pedophila is so offensive. Or when he says that this community is making a choice to be gay instead avoiding the questions or saying people should not be so easily offended all the time. Open hearts and open minds from your own mouth! Thanks all for this interview as this is important to discuss!
My favorite part of the episode is when Rod said he was putting something on the shelf that did make sense right now. He believes God will reveal the truth at some point in the future, but I recalled how many items were on my own shelf before it came crashing down… although the mental gymnastics displayed in this episode seem really dug in, so Rod’s shelf may just get swiped clear with his extra-special cognitive dissonance.
Rod had the guts to go on. Where are the leaders of the church? Why don’t they have the courage like Rod to go on??
"I am not willing to die for dogma, no" I AM OBSESSED WITH CARAH
Wow! I don’t know where to start with this guy! This one was difficult to get through. Nicely done Carah and John. I don’t know how you got through it. 😅
I've really valued what Rod has raised questions to that are otherwise appeals to popularity amid a very flawed scientific paradigm.
It appears to me that scientists frequent gargantuan random numbers like politicians do with our national debt. Where in the world do these numbers come from and how are they calculated? Why 25,000,000 years?! - why be using science to 'shoot to the moon' with speculation/s and assumptions.
John, in this interview you appear to want to oversimplify the paradigms. What Rod is dealing with = evidential paradigms that do not isolate religion from science.
Rod has said more clearly elsewhere that science and religion MUST eventually align.
We could otherwise ask the question/s, "are, or can mortals smarter than God?" - - -
If we answer that mortals are smarter than God, we're not interpreting God correctly.
I found Rod's questioning of vast voids amid scientific exaggerations and generalization/s to be very refreshing here. Take a marble stone too that has varying shapes and the paradigm that we slice the crust of the earth to reveal a way over-generalized core is a refreshing question to pose. It's likely varying materials amid varying locations.
If modern prophets can be wrong in their teachings, then it follows that ancient prophets could be wrong in their teachings as preserved in the Bible.
Whether you agree with Rod on his conclusions or not, people in the world who challenge current scientific beliefs and engage in research to provide different contexts and perspectives to scientific beliefs are indeed contributing to the growth of knowledge we can tap into as humanity and it is a worthwhile effort.
We can either sit and never challenge widely held scientific conclusions or we can engage in discovery and research to support or refute the scientific conclusions we currently hold.
Whether you agree with rod or not I think you have to admire his curious mind and efforts to explore different perspectives and explanations.
I know I’m late to this, but it had to be said somewhere. Hawking is an incredibly respected figure in science communication around the Big Bang. However, what he taught was literally the exact opposite of what was said by Rod. But not only is this wrong, but you could make the case that Hawking built his public career around debunking ideas like “knowing what came before the Big Bang” or “the Big Bang came from nothing”.
But even more importantly, Hawking demonstrated that time itself breaks down as you (conceptually) approach the beginning of the Big Bang.
So “before the Big Bang” is kinda a nonsense sentence from a physics perspective. It makes sense to the layman. But to a physicist, the word “Before” is a word used to describe a relationship within time. There literally wasn’t TIME for a concept like “before” to exist in.
Hawking built a public career trying to explain these impossibly complicated nuances. It’s a shame they’re being so misinterpreted.
I’m a little disappointed. Science denial is usually silly, but this is just bold faced making things up. Saying that the man who described Hawking Radiation wrote about something as nonsensical as BEFORE an event horizon. It just looks like Rod isn’t even trying. I expected a slightly more sophisticated argument for some reason.
I've been excited and nervous about this one since the last one. This was really hard to listen to.... but so important. This illustrates the great divide so well
The great delusion. The stretch of logic that to any reasonable outside observer is patent confirmation bias on every topic.
He literally dodges every single question🤦♀️ props to him for being brave enough to come back though!!
John is extremely smooth. He is incredibly skilled with the microphone and his art of interviewing. Not only does he have an incredible radio voice and soft tone but he has a very wonderful, sly way of changing the subject when it isn’t going well for him. And profusely apologizing “I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am not trying to be disrespectful” while he cuts off Rod and changes the subject to something that fits his narrative to the most controversial topics. He makes him feel
Ok about it while literally cutting him off and saying “we will cover that later, put it in the show notes” then to later never return to it. And change it to something more controversial about the church. where he can ask a yes or no question of Rod. Case and point: When a direct quote from a highly respected scientist said something comes from nothing in a Big Bang. Then changes the topic and brings it somehow to joseph smith was a treasure digger. WHAT A MASTERFUL CHANGE of topic. Not even related but it continues to seed doubt so he wants to hammer on the hard questions and get off of the Big Bang mumbo jumbo.
Thank you! John's interviewing style here was extremely disengenuous and frustrating. "Let's not get into the science; just yes or no." And changing the subject when things didn't go his way. John presented strawman after strawman for Rod to agree with or disagree with without showing any interest in hearing what Rod actually believes and why.
I find it interesting how he denies up and down that Joseph never used the stone in the hat for the translation, yet right on the church website it specifically states that Joseph used the stone in the hat during the translation.
I couldn't listen to the whole thing. LDS apologists, most apologists, are unbearable and oblivious to the harm they cause.
Please explain the harm they cause. I keep hearing this, but I don't understand. Sorry if this is a dumb question.
@@beccnae14 it's a great question. I have a gay son and my Mormon parents believe he shouldn't be allowed to date or marry someone he loves. Mormons oppose gay relationships, and LGBTQ rights. This harms countless people, divides families unnecessarily, and is an unethical belief. Apologists succeed in fooling people like my parents who continue to be members of an abusive cult/church.
I appreciate you bringing him on and getting into this. Imo,Talking about these hard issues is the most important thing! Thank you again.
The fact is that zero information about the celestial kingdom and Mormons version of heaven and hell (discussion on Catholics etc) NONE is found in the Bible OR the BOM- nowhere did Jesus Christ HIMSELF teach ANYTHING like that.
Am I wrong about that ? Please correct me and show me where CHRIST taught about kingdoms, sealings, eternal marriage and pre mortal existence.
I am a never mo & hearing this is so incredibly eye opening. I appreciate this channel so much for attempting to help others find the truth in their religion because this man if he is really looked up to in the church is single handedly going to ruin the young generation. These kids and other humans having to be diminished by their faith is heartbreaking
I appreciate that John pushed back on Rod and made him sit with how others are impacted by his statements because RM’s whole attitude through this whole series has felt very “my truth is right because I believe it and everyone else be damned”
This.
John, I completely agree that different voices need to be heard. And I love the long format.
I’m an LGTB+ ally and the thing about Rod that bothered me most is his insistence that people who aren’t like him have CHOSEN to go against the church or “god.” If you are gay, trans, dark skinned, female you didn’t choose to be that way … that’s just who you are.
Overall, I enjoyed the interview. There were times when John kept interrupting Rod when he was trying to provide some context to his response [non science related context] and I wish John had let him finish. However, overall, I enjoyed the interview and I am glad that Rod was able to share his story. I disagree with many of Rod's conclusions but I was still interested to hear his perspective. I really hope there is another video where the science is discussed. Opinions are one thing. Scientific evidence is something else. And, there is much to be said about scientific consensus.
@@ng7m-ham-shack You may believe Rod's reasoning for his beliefs is less interesting than his beliefs but I don't. Like I said, I disagree with many of Rod's conclusions. And, it is because I disagree with his conclusions that I am interested in his reasoning for his beliefs. That is why I hope there is another video with scientists so that they can get into the science behind what he believes. That is what I am interested in.
I know many who support my view. No one has come out in an open endorsement, but I know there are some who espouse the basic idea of it. I don't know that for absolute certainty and we can't verify ANYTHING, so I think it's better to just say "don't know".
That's the kind of responses that are painful and is why people don't want him to be interviewed. That there are General Authority Emeritus who support the Heartland Model is an acceptable answer. Even if we disagree that the Heartland Model is true.
The painful part is Rod moving from "I know" to "I don't know for absolute certain because we can't know ANYTHING" to "it's best to just say don't know".
Just start with "I don't know because none of them has openly endorsed my view."
He doesn’t care about offending people, because he doesn’t care about people who don’t uphold his beliefs.
omg he admitted it. "i choose to have faith, i choose to believe, then i gotta have to try to find evidences and things that back up that belief" he's admitting to starting from his conclusion and working his way back looking only for evidence that supports it.
Carah i have to say you are so knowledgeable . I’m very impressed. You can bring up information I’ve never researched or learned and you know so much about so many things. WOW!! You’re just awesome in my opinion.
So, according to this guy, the lamanites took all of the spoils of war from the nephites after cummorah. Helmets, shields, swords, scimitars etc. and that’s why there’s no archeological evidence for the battle, but then wouldn’t those spoils of war be found back in lamanite territory? Wouldn’t the lamanites see how these weapons and stuff were made, and then replicate it? Nope 👎
Great, great question @Garth.
@@mormonstories Thank you team, you all do great work!
One thing that I've noticed, is the way all the TBM's carry on about this huge battle involving 1000s upon 1000s of people.......yet, how come this has never been picked up as an episode on the History channel or similar documentary in main stream media 🤔....you'd think that something of this magnitude would generate some interest......oh, hang on, that's right.....it's all BS..🙄
@@peter_higgs exactly!
Spoils of war, Why take all the helmets & armour but leave all the arrows.
Interviewers keep throwing Rod's wanting to present evidence under the bus. . . Evidence is what the interviewers insist on having but they're not letting it be presented.
It must be saying something if the live chat isn’t included 😬 you did great Carah
Thanks so much! That means a LOT
The temperature adaptation Rod’s talking about re:golf is something that was already created through evolution hundreds of thousands (to potentially millions) of years ago. It’s not an evolutionary adaptation that happened since he moved to Arizona-he already had the makeup for it to happen, it just got “switched on” because he moved somewhere where it was necessary.
Oh boy, this whole interview. Absolutely absurd hearing Rod discuss evolution and the age of the earth.
I hate it when people use the phrase ‘BELIEVE in science’
I appreciate Rod for coming on and sharing his views. I actually think he was quite brave to do so. I don’t agree with him at all but it’s important hear what others believe and to document his and his followers’ beliefs. He seems like an interesting guy with whom I would enjoy having a conversation as long as it was not about Mormonism, his theories, etc. Thank you John and Carah for going the distance with him.
He said so many hateful things, I don't understand why that seemed to have little effect on you. He wants to erase the entire Indigenous experience on this land, superimposing a fake narrative over the top in order to bolster the ridiculous lies of an uneducated white man that himself was a pedophile. He actually said pedophilia and bestiality are forms of homosexuality. Wow. What?
Could Joseph Smith have possibly known that his con would work so well that in 2022, there will be people willing to completely divorce reality to keep it alive?
This guy is pathetically not familiar with the "big picture of modern science"...
Was this supposed to be an interview or a debate? The format was better than Pt2, but was arduous to listen to. Im trying to understand Rod's position, but there was still too much argument, debate, and trying to play 'gotcha' that got in the way. It had too much of a Cathy Newman 'what you're saying is' disingenuous reframing. Stop trying to find agreement, and instead try to seek understanding.
Well said.
This is PAINFUL. His answers are bad enough on their own. But he is constantly cutting them off, avoiding answering questions directly, and is very arrogant in his answers. Ugh so bad.
And THIS is how I studied myself out of the LDS Church ha ha ha
“I’m gonna open this and take a walk around the room” Carah describing each and every one of us every 5 minutes in this video.
I don’t understand the whole “If I can’t get my faith and actual scientific fact to correlate then I’ll choose my faith” nonsense whilst arguing with such conviction that your faith is in fact FACT.
Tbh I love when John and Carah get heated, it makes it more realistic. To sit by and let somebody say racist things or pretend things are fact when they have no actual evidence would be fake.
❤😂 thanks. Whoooooo gotta walk it out sometimes.
Rod strikes me as someone who is mostly self-taught, probably starting with the kind of outdated materials that can be found at some public libraries and online for free on self-made websites by non-experts. I respect Rod's curiosity and willingness to learn but I definitely think it's possible he's gone down some roads that have been discredited in recent years. I really think it can be good, if you're interested in these topics, Rod, to consider taking extension classes or even looking into MOOCs online. Yale, Stanford etc also have some great recorded classes that are available on CZcams. By which I mean: they recorded some popular courses, you hear the exact same lecture the students heard and even some of the responses to the questions that were asked at the time.
Rod said in the Part 1 of his interview with John and Carah, that he “likes learning, just not things that are not true.” I suspect that approach to learning is going to rule out Yale, Stanford, and just about any other serious educational pursuit. Motivated reasoning is strong with this one.
I don’t have a problem with being self taught. Rod’s problem is that he does not keep integrity and consistency with logic. Science is evil and should be discarded unless it agrees with him then it should be used as the authority. He is the embodiment of confirmation bias. He is so far up his own ass smelling his own bullshit that it’s impossible for him to not be completely biased. They to me doesn’t come from being self taught but from being completely brainwashed into an orthodox view of religion. Two different problems imo.
@@johnhorner1969 I don't either, but sometimes people who are self-taught don't know how to properly evaluate sources etc.
After watching this...I have a lot of thoughts. First and foremost, John and Carah we love you both.
Second, I think something that might be helpful for these episodes is putting a content warning or a trigger warning in the description box. It's not a perfect solution, but a lot of content creators (including us) do it to help people be aware of potential triggers if we can. If people watch live they do so at their own risk, but if they are watching the episodes later on I think it would be further respectful of the viewers who may be triggered by topics or not have the emotional space for topics such as homophobia or racism. As a member of the LGBTQ+ community, I am glad Carah and John were there to advocate but it still was extremely triggering and I wish he would have just said his beliefs align with Mormonism regarding being gay is a sin and a choice. He could have left it at that. But instead, he went on to elaborate with vile comments which were extremely offensive to the community which (even with allies there) threatens the safety of the space. With the previous episode's comments about racism and his comments about the LGBTQ+ community, I almost don't know if it's really worth allowing him your platform. There may be no right answer there and I liked John's points at the end. It's a hard thing to balance.
Third, the first half of this episode was extremely difficult to watch. I think for men (and women) in the ex-mormon space there is a lot to unpack with patriarchy and misogyny. Rod & John interrupted Carah quite a bit in the first half - practically anytime she spoke she was interrupted. I understand tensions are high and the topics are intense, but it did (at least in the first half) reflect some traditional mormon patriarchy. Rod interrupted incessently during the whole episode. It seemed to me like Carah's points were getting lost in the intensity of the conversation at times. I honestly don't know how Carah kept it together during this episode. It was maddening to watch. I think it improved during the second half of the episode when John gave her more of the floor to speak, but there was a lot of "mansplaining" happening and some condescension sent her way throughout (even if it wasn't and likely wasn't intentional).
I think this a necessary reminder for us all that it was difficult for women to exist in mormon spaces, and it is still difficult for women to exist in ex-mormon spaces. This holds even more true for women of color which is something Rod really has no understanding of and no intent to listen or learn. I appreciate the efforts of men like John in the ex-mormon space who are aware of this and are continuing to work on it - it's a continual process and we all can grow more.
I agree with what John stated in the last bit. I understand the intent of demonstrating the effects of Mormonism on individuals. Rod has a lot of followers, but I would definitely still consider this a brand of Mormon extremism. I truly don't know the right answer for this situation. It's important for people to see the negativity of Mormonism and how it can turn into mormon extremism and bigotry, but I also don't want to give people who spew hateful things a larger platform to do so. I think John and Carah are onto something with expanding the view so it's not an echo chamber of exmormonism, but I think restructuring the interview would have made viewers more comfortable. If Rod really wanted to get his point across that being gay is sinful, he could simply state that his views and beliefs align with mainstream Mormonism in that sense. He doesn't need to add in homophobic, transphobic, and other outrageous comments. I appreciated John's efforts to keep him on track, but Rod doesn't have the ability to regulate so it's just not a realistic expectation for him to be able to reign it in. There would have to be extremely rigid boundaries in place for him to not say blatantly homophobic and racist comments and consequences if he did it anyway.
I think for me, ideally, I would have loved to have focused on the model and his beliefs that are unique to the model. Being harmful to the LGBTQ+ community and dissing on women isn't unique to Rod's brand of mormonism.
I would have liked to have spent the majority of the focus on those things (which was attempted initially) and setting really firm boundaries with Rod around bigotry. It's one thing to say being gay is a choice and a sin (still harmful but I see how it is necessary for the context of the conversation), it's another thing to make the comparisons he made today which were vile. I personally don't think there should be any kind of further elaboration from Rod on the podcast unless it's a genuine apology with intent to do better. I think most of us know that qualified experts would refute most of his claims. I don't think it will cause Rod to change or think more critically. He made his points clear during the episodes, he knows the other information is out there and evidence counters his claims. But he doesn't care.
All in all, sorry for the essay. But I had to put this out there as I know Carah & John listen and care about their listeners. Love y'all.
Agree how triggering this was!!
In regards to this, was hoping for time stamps, as MSP does most interviews. So one could skip over what they knew would be problematic for them.
However, the insane way in which Rod cannot stay on topic, every answer he's literally All over the place, how could John accurately time stamp? I'd be pulling my hair out! !!
Love you Jordan and McKay ♡
So well said!
Thank you.
I think someone has to grow to understand how what they've done or said is hurtful to truly apologize. It seems clear that Rod genuinely believes in the (truly disgusting and offensive) comparisons he made about LGBTQ+ individuals. A part of me feels badly for him, because I feel it comes from a real place of ignorance and a lack of experience and understanding (even if plenty of that may be willful). I relate to some extent to that struggle to understand things that didn't fit into the churches paradigm. It takes work and willingness to be uncomfortable and see your own ignorance to ever be able to see outside of that and come to understand others experience. It was definitely sickening and triggering to listen to, but I also think that it's a solid example of the warped confusion members can go through trying to make sense out of nonsense. It's nonsense that an all powerful, all loving God would make people who don't have a place in his eternal plan, yet that's what it looks like, if you believe the gospel of the Mormon church. It's all too relatable, sadly. This is part of the damage that the church has caused, people grow up without an understanding of basic things about life and reality, and it leads them to hurt others. I'm not at all trying to say that is worse than what LGBTQ+ people go through, but I do think there is value in addressing it. It's such a tricky minefield to get through.
UPDATE :o my previous comment : Ty to you John!!! I see now there are time stamps in shows description..Aolgize for being too quick ♡♡
“Hawking showed that the Steady State theory is mathematically self-contradictory. He argued instead that the universe began as an infinitely small, infinitely dense point called a singularity. “ “we would note that quite near what might have otherwise been the beginning, time gives way to space such that at first there is only space and no time. Beginnings are entities that have to do with time; because time did not exist before the Big Bang, the concept of a beginning of the universe is meaningless”
Not nothing
Never-In and cult watcher here. I’m listening this with trepidation and gonna try to not make eye rolling comments. We’ll see how that goes. Maybe I’ll have an edible to get through it.
As offensive as it was (maybe add trigger warnings to the time stamps?) I am glad it was live-streamed and is on CZcams uncut so people can’t criticise his horrific comments as being “edited” or “taken out of context by apostates”.
whoa. carah, good f-ing job. im in tears over your fruits of the church questioning. so so so well said. thats the crux of the issue. so many who have left the church see others pain with empathy.
I started questioning the church because I realized I wasn't happy there. I always tried to be what other people wanted me to be and it made me feel horrible every time I went to church. That was the start of my journey out.
I agree with your long form format, and giving voice to all sides of the discussion. We need to come to the table, and this is helping to facilitate. Good Job John and Carah!
It all sounds good as long as you accept the assumptions and possibilities. But without the mental gymnastics it’s obvious that it’s craziness.
My boss said to me many years ago when I was trying to get him to accept something “if ifs and buts were candy and nuts the world would be a sweeter place”. If it’s and buts we’re candy and nuts I would agree with Rodney. To think I accepted this at face value once.
Carah at 4:26 the statement you make here, that HE needs to hear... As a white person, I'm glad I'm here with you Carah. There's so many who look like us who NEED to hear this. Thank you!
Much better than the race episode!! But I hope you use give relevant experts (eg Simon Southerton) time to respond to every single issue. This would be much better done in a “debate”/conversation style episode, but I also don’t want these positions repeated again 😂
An extended reaction video response from Simon and other experts please! Including a NeverMormon for outside perspective. Carah and John have been valiant in this existence in these interviews ;) but can only do so much in refuting Rod's sheer nonsense, and worse, dangerous, harmful anti-science beliefs masquerading in the cloak of research. He is a perfect example of pseudo-intellectualism and science. Seems like a nice guy, but a terrible thinker.
I was interested in learning what the Heartland Model was. Way too much time was spent duking it out about what Rod’s belief in Joseph Smith, the founding, belief in church leaders, etc. It would have been simpler to get to the point by starting with the understanding that Rod is a TBB and let him present his Heartland Model.
Note to Rod: Let me start with a quote from E.T. Benson: “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon." I only have one word for you Rod. Dendrochronology. It's a simple but unequivocal dating method cross-referencing tree rings that solidly date back beyond the young earth model you are trying to support. Tree rings express historical events such as fires, drought, etc. Simply stated, by examining tree rings of living as well as older dead trees within a geographic location, an accurate chronology in years can be reconstructed. By simply comparing C14 dating to dendrodating, C14 is established as an accurate measure of time and is applied successfully to archaeological (human) material remains dating back in the least, here in the Americas to 13,000 years, and up to 55,000 years bp elsewhere. So thus, Rod, your belief on the age of the earth is verifiably wrong based on dendrodating and C14 and according to E.T., your entire thesis crumbles to dust where it suffers an ignominious death like unto Nehor of BofM fame. So sorry to have to tell you of this... all the best on your recovery.
Love this.
I’ve been nervous about this episode and after the last one I wasn’t even sure you’d have him on again…
Good on you guys for pushing back against his hypocrisy and cherry-picking, and shutting things down when needed. I’m not sure getting him back a fourth time with scientists is worth it for you or for the community… he’s not going to listen to them.
I would still have him back for the discussion with scientists. You never know who it might help!
I took evolutionary science at BYU in the early 80s. Even then we knew evolution to be a reality. Fifteen minutes in and this guy is in crazy land. Earth, keep trying, humans may be a step in the right direction, but you can do, well, you can do better.
The most frustrating part of this interview:
John or Carah: (Makes excellent point, very problematic for the church)
Rod: "Yeah, yeah, right. I agree and here's some insane explanation as to why your point actually supports my point"
Pretty sure Hawking said the opposite. If the big bang happened it was from a singularity. THAT was what he said. A singularity is everything. Not nothing.
Two words: Carah. Burrell.
And my God in heaven. Please don't let there be tens of thousands of people who look up to Rod Meldrum as an intellectual authority.
Wow he really goes into crazy town with the “people leave the church because they can’t have sex with animals” discussion omg!!!
It’s that “slippery slope” :)
Conservative Mormons see sexual preference as a spectrum/gradient from heterosexual/normal/good to deprived and perverted. Wonder where polygamy and pedogamy fall on that scale.