Where does Elymian fit on the Indo-European Tree? Greek, Anatolian, Italic Connections?
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- čas přidán 3. 11. 2023
- Welcome to Learn Hittite, where we explore the fascinating world of ancient languages and linguistics. In today's video, we'll jump head first into the enigmatic Elymian language, a mysterious tongue spoken by the Elymians of ancient Sicily. Join us as we unravel the mysteries surrounding this little-known language, its potential Indo-European connections, and its place in the linguistic tapestry of the ancient world.
The island of Sicily, between the 7th and 4th centuries BCE, is believed to have been divided among three distinct linguistic groups: the Elymians, the Sicani, and the Sicels. The Elymians, an ancient people believed to be descendants of Troy, occupied the western part of the island. The linguistic landscape of these groups is both archaeologically and linguistically challenging to distinguish. While the Sicani language is traditionally considered non-Indo-European, it remains shrouded in mystery due to the very limited number of texts. The Elymian and Sicel languages, on the other hand, are assumed to be Indo-European, yet their precise positions on the Indo-European tree and their relationship to each other are subjects of ongoing debate, primarily due to the scarcity of linguistic material.
In this video, we'll explore the limited corpus of Elymian texts, primarily found on coins and vase inscriptions, and examine the use of the Greek alphabet to represent the language. We'll also touch upon the influence of the neighboring Greek colonies, particularly Selinunte, on Elymian epigraphy.
As we go further into Elymian, we'll discuss various proposed connections to language families, including Anatolian, Armenian, Balkan, Greek, and Italic, shedding light on the ongoing debate among scholars and researchers. While there's a consensus that Elymian is an Indo-European language, we'll critically examine the morphological and phonological features that have led to this conclusion, as well as the unique aspects of Elymian that make it stand out.
🔍 So, if you're a language explorer, history buff, or simply curious about ancient languages, this video is for you. Don't forget to like and subscribe to our channel for more in-depth explorations of fascinating linguistic topics. Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to sharing more linguistic adventures with you soon! 📚🗺️🧩
Selected Bibliography (in order of relevance)
🌟Tribulato, O. (Ed.). (2012). Language and Linguistic Contact in Ancient Sicily (Cambridge Classical Studies). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/CBO9781139248938
(This book includes many many relevant articles by Marchesini, Pocetti and Simkin)
🌟Prag, J. R. (2020). The indigenous languages of ancient Sicily. Palaeohispanica, 20, 531-551.
🌟Agostiniani, Luciano. (1977). Iscrizioni anelleniche di Sicilia : le iscrizioni elime / Luciano Agostiniani. Firenze : L. S. Olschki
Kinch, K.F. (1888). Die Sprache der sicilischen Elymer, Zeitschr. f. Numism. XVI, 192-194
Biondi, L. (1995). ISCRIZIONI ELIME. Annali Della Scuola Normale Superiore Di Pisa. Classe Di Lettere e Filosofia, 25(4), 1179-1182. www.jstor.org/stable/24308100
Willi, A. (2008). Sikelismos: Sprache, Literatur und Gesellschaft im griechischen Sizilien (8.-5. Jh. v. Chr.). Biblioteca Helvetica Romana XXIX. Basel: Schwabe Verlag.
Marchesini, S. (1998) “Il segno И in Elimo: una nuova proposta”, AnnPisa. Classe di
Lettere e Filosofia, ser.4, 3/1-2, 1998, 289-301.
Tribulato, O. (2017). Learning to Write in Indigenous Sicily A New Abecedary from the Necropolis of Manico di Quarara (Montelepre, South-West of Palermo). Zeitschrift Für Papyrologie Und Epigraphik, 201, 117-122. www.jstor.org/stable/26603760
Agostiniani. (2021). Iscrizioni anelleniche di Sicilia : le iscrizioni elime : appendice 1978-2020 / Luciano Agostiniani. “L’Erma” di Bretschneider.
Rex E. Wallace. 2007. The Sabellic languages of ancient Italy. (Languages of the World/Materials, 371.) München: LINCOM. xiv+72pp.
Agnello, S. L. (1953). Silloge di iscrizioni paleocristiane della Sicilia. Roma: "L'Erma" di Bretschneider.
Buck, C. D. (1904). A Grammar of Oscan and Umbrian: With a Collection of Inscriptions and a Glossary. Boston: Ginn.
Next up, if I am feeling brave, we'll take a look at the possible feminine gender in Anatolian and Hittite 😨
Music:
Vespers on the Shore - The Mini Vandals
Sao Meo - Doug Maxwell_ Zac Zinger - Zábava
I haven't much to add to the conversation, other than that I'm really glad CZcams brought this channel to my attention! Nice video!
Thank you so much for the kind words. Much appreciated!
Well my opinion on this is ... we need to dig up many more inscriptions!
Indeed!
This is fascinating...if it really is Anatolian, or Anatolian adjacent, that raises A LOT of interesting questions. Cheers!
Good stuff
Elymian looks etymologically similar to Helen, especially if you figure that a lot of Southern European languages don't fully pronounce the H. and let us not forget Elysium is considered the Greek version of Heaven.
You should generally read "y" as originally /u/ although transitioning to /i/, this is canon and fits all the known descriptions (Assur > Assyria > Syria, Lukka > Lycia, Libu > Libya, etc.) So the ethnonym sounds rather like *elumi-, whatever its exact meaning.
Anyway I'm of the opinion that Helen, Hellas and such are etymologically related and may have originally meant the Aegean Sea, as such the reference to Helen in the Greek tradition, especially the Illiad, may refer to the struggle for the hegemony of the Aegean region. Backing this would be that Bronze Age Greeks don't seem to have yet called themselves Hellenes (word that only appears once in the Illiad and never in Hittite or Egyptian texts) but Achaeans (maybe in the restrictive sense of people of the Peloponese) and Danaoi (maybe in a broader pan-Hellenic sense) and that in classical times Hellene competed with Western Greek Graikos, maybe one referring to the Agean Sea while the other was used for the Ionian Sea instead? Alternatively the original Hellas might have been the Hellespont (literally "sea of Helles"), which is now the Marmara Sea, then controlled surely by Troy but coveted by the Greeks.
This is going to sound like a stupid question, but are we sure that the final ΙΒ isn't simply Greek numerals 12?
Otherwise, Wiktionary (I know, I know 😅) says that “I am” in Proto-Italic is _*ezom_ ( < PIE _*h₁ésmi_ ) so that it morphing to _ΕΜΙ_ looks odd, so I think Italic hypothesis has an uphill battle to fight... Now Anatolian (considering Hittite _ēšmi_ “I am”) seems considerably less convoluted. I don't know how the Proto-Anatolian first-person singular present indicative active is reconstructed in this language, though, so comparison with Hittite will have to do for now...
Some of the Segesta issued coins are bilingual so I guess that's where the interpretation of the IB ending, however I spent a lot of time going through Sicilian coins online (like wildwinds or random academic articles) and I believe I never saw a bilingual with the IB ending myself.
A selection can be viewed here:
www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/sicily/segesta/i.html
I think "emi" is just lifted straight from Greek, or it's actually indicative of it being a Hellenic language. I think the argument against this is actually the -IB/IIB ending itself being highly unusual for something Hellenic but I can't comment on the details. If I recall well, I also read somewhere that there are other examples of the formula being copied in such a way so it seems possible, although equally 'emi' could just be Elymian. If I find where I read this I'll Ieave a link in a comment.
Simkin wrote about Italic *esmi/*esom and Elymian 'Emi' but I didn't quite buy his point. Here's what he wrote:
This has several consequences. Firstly, it provides the clearest
indication that Elymian is an Indo-European language. Whether
it could belong to the Italic branch of Indo-European is another
controversial question: some scholars hold that a common innovation of the Italic languages is their replacement of the inherited first person singular *esmi with the properly subjunctive *esom, an isogloss apparently not shared by Elymian. However, others maintain that *esom is not a morphological replacement but merely the regular phonological development of *esmi > *esm. in which case Elymian could theoretically still be Italic.
that Simkin quote was from his article in "Language and Linguistic Contact in Ancient Sicily", 2012
What do you think about Anatolian hypothesis of indo-european origins? Greek, Albanian and Armenian are the living languages of today that are kind on their own branches. I find this Anatolian theory of indo-european origins interesting, would help a lot on classifications.
I'm not the biggest fan to be honest, although I'm open to being convinced otherwise. What do you think the Anatolian hypotheses adds over the steppe hypothesis?
@@LearnHittite I used to be very into steppe hypothesis, but we have new DNA evidence came out recent years that point out that Yamna isn't the culture were Indo-Europeans came from. Male haplos of Yamna do not match with Corded Ware, and there wasn't so big genetic flow from Yamna than previously thought.
And you know languages of Anatolia, Balkans, Mediterranean area seem to have their own categories which for me it seems these are older languages than for example Baltic, Slavic and Germanic languages. It is already pointed out earlier that Armenian has similarities to Greek and Albanian, but still these are their own separate branches. Also Tocharian and now Elymian are also their separate branches which is little bit akward tbh. So linguistics need to rethink how IE-languages split.
I want to challenge to traditional classifications of these languages. I suggest Elymian could be transition from Anatolian to Italic.
Colin Reinfew himself admitted his theory was wrong.
Still no idea why it is considered Indoeuropean. The other Segesta known is a Ligurian town close to Etruria, sadly Ligurian is all but understood (although I'm almost certain it was pre-Indoeuropean).
Dative plural forms often end in -m.
I know initial m- can become initial b-, like the river Mousaos/Bužau, so I wonder if final -m can become final -b. Should we be looking for relatives with a dative plural -zim or -sim?
Yeah it sounds like a good shout. What language family do you suggest?
@@LearnHittite I wish I knew. I've only studied a bit of Latin and Gothic and don't know much about early Indo-European. I think -zim and -sim resemble Oscan genitive plurals, actually, so I think Italic is likely. They don't seem to resemble Celtic, Germanic, or Hellenic genitive and/or dative plurals. I can't compare them to Lusitanian, Illyrian, or as-yet-unidentified groups from western Europe.
I'm replying a bit late. This is good stuff.
On the ...ib vs ...if ending, perhaps it could be read ...iv due to pronouciation. This may point to some other group.
could do, good point
6:05 Sure Thoth is not putting HATTIC into the same family as Etruscan?
That's what I gathered from my reading into Alinei.
Is was referring to Georgiev 1962, 1983. He put Palaic, Hittite, Luwian, Etruscan, Elymian, Lycian, Carian and Eteocretan all in thr same branch
ah ...@@LearnHittite ... perhaps he was more about vocabulary than morphology?
What about Albanian? Seems more plausible geographically. On the other hand, where does the idea that the Trojans wnet to Italy come from anyway?
Albanian is a very distinct branch of Indoeuropean although surely the same one as historical Illyrians, at least the so-called "true Illyrians" of approximately what is now Albania. However when did Illyrian reach that area and how? I'm not certain and, based on its high position in most Indoeuropean trees (the first branch of surviving languages), my take is that it should be some form of Dacian or Daco-Thracian, because these fit the description of directly descending from Western Yamna... and not other branches like Corded Ware, which is quite clearly at the origin of every single Western Indoeuropean language, including Greek and Armenian (Armenians have lots of Balcanic Y-DNA and their language is probably distantly related to Greek via Phrygian and ultimately Vucedol culture).
Re. Trojans in Italy it's for all we know a Roman or rather Latin legend: some Aeneas guy, not exactly a Trojan but a close ally per the Illiad, where he's called Aineias (maybe a variant of Wanax = King?), who is like a mirror of Greek Achilles but saved from death miraculously twice, is said (by Virgil and Ovid) to have migrated with his people to Latium and founded Lavinium, a city just south of Rome. He previously consorted Dido, legendary founder of Carthage but for "reasons" (gods went forth and back advising Aeneas) went to resettle in Latium, where he married Lavinia, daughter of a legendary founder king of the Latins, "obviously" named Latinus.
My take is that it is actually an Etruscan foundation myth adopted by the Romans (Rome was largely under Etruscan influence at its origins and so were the other Latins until Lars Porsenna was defeated by the Greeks, roughly in the same chronology as the last Etruscan King of Rome, Tarquinus the Arrogant). The Etruscans (Tyrsenoi in Greek, Rasna in Etruscan, which corresponds to the "rsen" segment of the Greek term) are probably the same as the Teresh of the "sea peoples" and maybe the Tauresoi of the Greek legends, not quite the Trojans (Teucrians = Tjekker) but closely associated to them. A close relative of Etruscan was spoken and even written in Lemnos, just off the coast of the Troad, until Athens conquered the island.
In any case the Romans believed that Aeneas and by extension the Trojans were their ancestors and the legend was so popular that even the Franks and the English would later claim that ancestry as well. Among Aeneas alleged descendants via Ascanius = Iulius was some guy called Julius Caesar, you probably heard of him.
you mean the elam language?hm...then they must have be the etruscians...did they speak the elam language?
This is about an "Elymian" language once spoken around Segesta in Sicily. Nothing to do with Elam.