Fawning Causes Abusive, Toxic Relationships for Autistic People
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- Hi! I'm Orion Kelly and I'm Autistic. On this video I explore the topic of the 4th stress response, fawning. Plus, I share my personal lived experiences as an #actuallyautistic person. #orionkelly #autism #asd #autismsigns #whatautismfeelslike
⏱ Index:
00:00 - Welcome
00:23 - Fawning & Autism
09:12 - Common Signs
14:43 - Causes
18:28 - Impact
21:39 - Key Strategies
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fawning is also causing to ignore survival instincts so we end up ignoring red flags and predatory behaviors
It IS a survival tactic and instinct! It's literally one of the hardwired danger responses, Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn. It's quite concerning people don't know that it's a good survival strategy, as they survived and keep doing it. But being in !danger! mode only keeps you alive, doesn't teach you how to start living for yourself.
@Alf258 Yes this exactly. It is a tactic, but it's also deleterious.
@@chey7691 Instinct yes, a great one, no, when you should have chose flight. It's sometimes about as helpful as a deer freezing in front of car headlights. (Not always helpful). You're stuck on it being called a 'survival instinct.' That wasn't their point.
@@MissShembre what you don't seem to understand, though I thought I made it clear. Is that it is NOT a choice more often than not, it was the default usually preceded by past incidents where it was ingrained as the first response. Know just because you don't have a immediate choice in responses doesn't mean you can't tell if someone is a creep. The brain is trying a tactic that has worked before in a stressful situation to survive, but that doesn't also mean the person (who is fawning) is dense to the motivations of the other person (cause of the situation).
Yeah that makes me wonder if I have autism (I'm not saying this cuz it's trending) I either have autism or ADHD or bipolar or something.
I think a lot of these fawning behaviors stem from the desire to "comprnsate" for autistic behaviors, such as stimming or avoiding eye contact, or especially sensory sensitivity, as in "see, I might be weird, but I'm kind to you, I always let you have the last word, don't blame me for my weirdness pleeeease!". People think autism is a major flaw that has to be compensated for on every occasion, so they act like this.
On one hand I fawn. On the other hand I rebel against fawning.
That is an excellent point. When I was diagnosed in my 40s, I was elated to learn why I was weird. My older siblings were embarrassed at having an autistic sibling. At least one has revised his opinion, but I see how I fawned on them a bit for the first few years after diagnosis. Having a brain that is literally built differently is nothing to be ashamed of.
This explains why I had such a hard time saying "no" in my last relationship. I didn't want to come across as "too sensitive", so I tried to pretend that I wasn't uncomfortable. It also led to me having trouble setting boundaries. So yeah, knowing the source of all of that is going to be useful in avoiding further garbage.
@@mirrortarget5729 Being sensitive can have downsides but it can be positive as well!
So true, Ms.terrious!
I think this is the first time I've heard someone link fawning and masking. It's a fascinating connection that should be investigated.
Absolutely! Once again blown away by Orion's content! This was so helpful to me.
Thank you Orion,
This is so helpful.
🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
Yes indeed😊
Oh it is a thing it's how I've survived in this world
Absolutely!
Oh I'm a pro at people pleasing! I'm also an enabler. However, I'm growing spiritually, mentally and emotionally -- ADHD diagnosis at 55. Autism at 77, just months ago. I love it! All of a sudden I understand feelings and events from my past finally. Now imagine a Borderline Personality Disorder father raising me! I was diagnosed clinically depressed at 14. Damn I want my childhood back😂. I often listen but this is my only post.
I want my childhood back too 😢✌️💕🌻
Very similar to you.
same here @@buttercxpdraws8101
I sometimes fantasize as how it would have been to be early diagnosed and raised in an environment with a family that I didn't have to fawn for.
Glad for you! I believe my father was autistic, and now- i’ve known my mother is Borderline (quiet type), but as I researched autism more and more (for the sake of my daughter and husband and our living more peacefully, happily with them- they are, and perhaps me?) a lot of things started to sound a lot like autism, and I looked up the two together and there’s newer research saying perhaps many borderline people are autistic first, and then they experienced trauma…. so there’s another lens to look at your father through…?!
I’m so grateful for Orion and other’s sharing- so healing!
PTSD and Fawning seem to go hand in hand.
Indeed we do
It's literally a adrenaline/danger response. You know fight and flight, but did you know about freeze and fawn? Yep it's the four F's of danger response, and it's downright criminal it isn't mentioned much more than in passing until you take actual psychology courses or read advanced books.
Word.
this too
I think my entire childhood was one long fawn response. Sometime in my early twenties I looked around and realized that there wasn't a single thing in my life that was there because I genuinely wanted it and began course correcting.
How did you figure out what you did want? (Once you got to that point)
@@4LLT0G3TH3R It wasn't all at once. It started with removing everything I didn't want so I had room to explore. I took inventory of what was in my head, and asked myself if that genuinely came from me or if somebody else put it there. If it was the latter, I purged it.
I started being more blunt with my parents. I began cutting them off and reminding them I didn't ask their opinion when they would offer unsolicited advice. Eventually their side of the relationship became a lot more respectful.
Went ahead and completed a biomedical bachelor's I've never used since this happened late into Junior year, but didn't bother with applying to med school. I got more firm with my "No"s and cut off relationships that didn't produce adequate return on investment. Much less people in my life and the ones that are here are genuinely wanted and earn their keep.
I’m sure the details are unique to each of our experiences, but broadly speaking, I went through the same process. Let’s hope for the best on our journey
Can you provide tips? It's like I know exactly who I am and want I want. But trying to reconcile that with the expectations, assumptions and way or the world is hell. I just want to be my best self. But at the same time (I 14:51 could be described as strong willed) from the outside looking in. Yet I am realising that I take all the wrong cues while also missing the ones most people catch. Anyway....Lol...Just a word of advice, wisdom or strategies on how you have pursued your true self would be appreciated😩🙏🏾.
@@trerio6815 I find that it helps to cut the problems into as small of pieces as possible and tackle them one at a time. So, for expectations people are putting on you, tackle the easiest one first. It will get easier as you make more room for yourself to grow.
Sometimes I have to put myself into 'do or die' (not literally) situations to force growth, like quitting a job even though I don't have another one lined up, but its not something to run into recklessly.
Other than that, maybe try to read a lot of different philosophy from different perspectives. I find that the prepackaged belief systems don't fit well and its best to take bits and pieces and make your own.
I did this for decades bc my mother was my first bully. I thought we had to earn basic respect & relationships by adjusting to others’ needs. Then I noticed it didn’t happen in most situations except with family bullies.
My dad and then kids at school.... people are so horrible. im 30 now and its still with me!
@@TheBanana93 I hope you feel better and found good people. I realize now that many adults are cruel, maybe from the internet & social media normalizing bullying. I am still adjusting to mean people and keeping my distance. I moved so I’m starting over.
@@erikavaleriesI moved to the other side of the world. We can do this.
@@Loktoris Thank you. I hope I can find some good people. I had to move a long distance too because of family continuing to interfere & say I’m lying about my disability. I need major surgery and they were telling people not to help me. It’s very lonely and scary now not knowing anyone when I’m stuck in bed. But it’s better than being abused!
@@erikavaleries Strangers are often the people who will love us the most.
I used to take pride in being middle aged and having never made an enemy. I mean that in the sense that I never got anyone upset to the point they don't talk to me anymore or they actively avoid me... now I realize it's because I've been fawning my whole life, to blend in and avoid conflict. Thank you Orion. This video was very eye opening for me.
That is so true. I am in couples therapy ATM. Most therapists will tell you that a conflict free relationship is not actually a relationship at all. I have a lovely, conflict free relationship :/
As a woman with AUTISM ADHD , I fawn so much that it actually makes people feel weird. Ugh. lol. Also, in women, the psychologists then attribute this behavior to borderline personality disorder, and misdiagnosis us as such. It’s also terrible to be a female and do this bc I also do the fawning thing to men and then they get the wrong idea which was NOT AT ALL INTENDED… and then bad things can and do and did happen to undiagnosed ASD teenage girls. Case in point, I was 16 and went to a college party with one of my highschool friends. Of course the only script I had for these scenarios were movies so I acted like what I saw in the movies and was outgoing, while fawning over literally anyone I talked to. Next thing I know I was being forced against my will (I will leave the rest out bc you know what happened) … and I had no idea how or why it had gotten to that point in the first place. I had no clue that my mask was that of a person who was ‘available and ready’… anyway, my point. We need to advocate and bring awareness to the FACT that girls are un diagnosed at an alarming rate and these girls are having to navigate life incorrectly diagnosed with the wrong supports… that ultimately can lead to some horrific situations for these females. Think, SA, domestic violence, and just easier to victimize in any sort of way. It’s sad bc we get told ‘you’re too emotional’ and are then labeled BPD while boys are helped.
That in no way was ur fault sweetie some men are just animals.
I read your story. I don't get the part where your experience correlates to "girls are undiagnosed at an alarming rate"
This can come from the belief that "if it happened to me, that must mean it is the common experience"
And while it is true, you're probably not unique -- to think that prevalence is anything more than trace, is a fallacy to think this way.
@@JD-mz1rl THAT is what you decided to write after reading my story? Wow. Smdh.
Amen!!
@@GizaSantu That's very judgemental of you to respond like that.
Fawning has been one of the largest and hardest obstacles I’ve had to face in my life. I have spent the vast majority of my life just trying to make sure everyone else around me is happy and always at great cost to my own personal happiness
We don't fawn to please the sabertooth tiger. We fawn so that the group doesn't kick us out of the party. Literally why we did it as cavepeople and why it's still ingrained as a survival tactic now.
Yup. Exile often equalled death.
I blew my therapists mind when i came up with that theory lol
@@TheBanana93therapists should understand that before us lol
The "omega" of the group.
A fawning response for a saber tooth tiger is to throw a rabbit at it. Or the trope of saying "nice kitty". It's there's it just requires that the sabertooth not be actively attacking, but to present a semi-short term possiblity.
Yep; I started learning this a few years ago. Very true! And on another note, I also find it painful that I have to get assertive to people in order for them to respect me (assertive to the point where I wonder if I am being rude, in which I feel frustrated that I can't just be my natural self and gain respect by just merely respecting others).
Absolutely!! This is exactly how I feel about this. Thanks for articulating it so well.
@@jenlovesthisstuff Seems to be the sad reality of the world these days, unfortunately. I really don't understand why so many people experience pleasure from getting a ride out of someone (literally hurting them on purpose, so that they cry and get upset) or the desire to stir up drama. I don't have a lot of faith in finding more close friendships. I have to wait a few months until they "get comfortable" with me (meaning that, they start to feel comfortable enough to start acting disrespectful). And I just don't get the desire to disrespect somebody, just because they are more soft spoken. The whole line where, "Well, you didn't say anything when so-and-so said that rude thing to you, so they assumed that it was okay . . ." And then I scratch my head. Why does that make it okay? And why did they have the desire to be rude to me in the first place? Is it like a sadistic temptation or impulse where they just couldn't hold themselves back any longer, and they had to get their fix? My frustrations with the world these days. It's like, "Okay, they knew how to be respectful for the first three months, so it's not like they don't know the difference." I feel like I don't understand half of the socializing norms, more than ever before.
Yes. This. You have the words I didn't know how to put together to say this.
@@AriaThereYet Awe, thanks! I think that the only reason why I am able to put these thoughts into words is because I watched probably 200 videos on Autism, to find videos that put things into words for me. Other times, these thoughts just sort of hit me after years of frustration (and years of figuring out how to put my feelings into words). So hopefully these videos will also give you the words to explain how you feel to people as well 🙂.
I have to be assertive to get people to listen to me, because I am a woman people think of me as a bitch though, maybe rude too. But I could say something till I'm blue in the face and people wouldn't listen to me. I say it with authority or assertive and it's seen as rude or bitchy. I just want to be taken seriously. I was diagnosed with ADHD at a young age but I think I might be autistic too.
Whoa. This is big. I'm ancient. I grew up with just two known danger reactions: fight and flight. Then freeze was added. Now fawn. You used the word camouflage, equating it with masking. I think that word is a better choice to acknowledge the defensive/protective nature of fawning. I was diagnosed ASD at 58. I was in my late thirties before I learned that I could say no and lightening would not strike me, that people not being happy with me was not the end of the world. That it was not my job to make everyone else happy and comfortable. (I'm AFAB.) No was an option. Not a welcome one, but an option. Of course the people around me would not agree that I was allowed that option.Then I had to learn to stop saying "I'm sorry" for EVERYTHING. How many times a day did I apologize for existing? One of the hardest lessons I've had to learn was that the major people in my life did not have my best interests at heart, and not even blood kin necessarily loved ME. They might love the me they wanted me to be, and as long as I acted the part I was lovable. But the me that I am was not acceptable. It happens--birth family, friends, and two husbands. I have had to distance myself from other people so I can finally identify the real me, and decide how to integrate that me--to love that me myself. People with alexithymia definitely use fawning because we don't KNOW what we feel in a given situation, so we mimic other people's reactions or act what we're told we're supposed to feel to avoid being criticized and ostracized as "other." Thanks for what you do, Orion. It matters.
This video was a revelation, and you linking fawning to alexithymia was like, a compound revelation. Oftentimes it takes me time and space to process how I actually feel about things, so in the moment, I usually just go with the best opinion to diffuse conflict. I get really frustrated with myself because I don’t want to be wishy-washy or people pleasing, but this explanation makes sooo much sense.
These 2 comments really resonate with my experiences ❤
I have a PhD in fawning. I had to tip toe around my explosive step father so I am hyper vigilant when with people. I am super sensitive to criticism or even playful teasing, I just can't take it. Super sensitive to rejection also, a whiff of being left out and I crumble inside. I am new to thinking I could be autistic, well 8 months of research.. still feels new as I'm 52 now. This helps so much, fawning is a masking technique, and it does lead to friends and lovers that abuse that. I have experienced that. Learning to consider my own needs is a challenge, we essentially have to oppose our instinctive responses which takes so much presence of mind and that can be exhausting. I have chosen to drop out of social life as much as possible in order to find my own joys and work out what I love to do, with out the often unconscious influence of others. Thanks Orion another cracking video :D
Yeah that’s deep. I haven’t been socializing much these days either.
Yes, I've dropped out! If I'm in the presence of ANY other person, my radar is on, and I'm scanning to see what they're doing or needing from me. So the only way for me to work out who I am, what I want, and what I like is to be on my own. That's when I feel authentic and relaxed.
I dip into social settings periodically and of course, deal with people at work, but if it's my choice, mostly I'm by myself 😊
Newly diagnosed here age 54. A new thought hitting the autistic airwaves. “If you are wondering if you’re autistic, you probably are.”Neurotypicals don’t think. Also look into interception. Explains a lot of what neuro diverse go through.
Edit… although arguably correct factually… I wrote neurotypicals don’t think. (Just point and accuse and state the bleeding obvious) what I meant to write, neurotypicals don’t think along those lines. Lol lol lol
@@annado9444What do you mean by "Neurotypicals don't think"?
This was so incredibly important for me to hear. Growing up with bullying at school and narcissistic abuse at home made me an absolute pro at the fawn response. For years I've been confused as to why people get mad at me for apologizing or compromising, why my compliance is frustrating to my loved ones, and why the conversation around "people-pleasers" seems to be that everyone thinks they're flaky and untrustworthy. I never thought of it as more than a PTSD response (along with something annoying in my personality), but thinking about it through the lens of advanced masking has kind of knocked me on my ass. Gonna be talking to my spouse and best friend about this later. Thank you, again, for an incredible video.
That fawn response mirrors my own (long-undiagnosed) Autistic/ADHD experience with family and society narcs, if we have points of view contrary to those of our 'dear leaders' in the house, we get abused - with me, it was emotional, physical and verbal ... ending up with cPTSD, depression, anxiety and chronic illness.
I can't stand histrionic drama that's like someone hurled a grenade in my direction!
Despite it all, you have managed to bring good people in your life, if they're upset about you accommodating them too much. ❤
@@SpectrumOfChange I realize I'm replying to this late but I did want to thank you for saying that, I just didn't have words when you first responded. You're right, and I'm very grateful to you for that insight. ❤
@@snorlaxgender no internet stranger's is ever owed a response.
I'm realizing though, that my comment sounded more "look at the bright side" than intended .. it was more of a "wow that's really impressive that your systems, coming from your background, managed to find people who want you to be you". I am staunchly against people "bright side-ing" in general haha.
@@SpectrumOfChange I found it very sweet and encouraging, no problem. You were extremely kind and genuinely gave me something new to think about. :)
You definitely said how it is. Yeah, we are taught from a very young age that we can't EVER say "no" to anyone. I'm sure I was smacked by my father and my hand held down on a boiling radiator for trying once to say "no." Every word you said is how it IS. Great video.
You know more about autism than any doctor or psychologist/psychiatrist I've ever met. You should do workshops to train health professionals better
He really should. He interprets complex data to lay people beautifully!
Could this be fawning?
@@mygirldarby Yes to some degree
@@mygirldarby Could what? Their comment?
1:30 ha that is funny senses from the senses strange tone change in the video however thank
Orion, thank you for your statements, "Being autistic has created long-term trauma for me, on a regular basis," and "Just living life as an autistic person has, over time, provided me with repeated traumatic events." Also, I relate so well to the concept of fawning, or people pleasing, as you described it, and the various ways it's manifested. Thank you for your continued insightful and relatable videos.
Why should we fawn (people please) others when they wouldn't do the same for us? Learning to say No is essential and concentrating om our own lives and mental and physical well being is more important, what we want to do with our lives. Great content from Orion. Keep it coming. Thankyou.
This was super interesting. I'm autistic with ADHD and have an undiagnosed, neurodivergent gf. I definitely notice her do this sometimes and I have to remind her that her feelings, health and comfort really matter to me. One time she went to a Comicon so we couldn't do our routinely evening discord call. She messaged me like "I'm so sorry we can't call. I'm with friends and we're still hanging out. I'm really sorry!" And I was like "It's okay sweetheart. You don't have to call me every evening. You're there to have fun. So just go and have fun."
She also worries a lot about not being enough and disappointing me. So whenever it comes up in conversation, I remind her that she's more than I could have ever wished for and that I'm proud of how much she's improved over time. I tell her honestly that it's difficult for me sometimes, but that she can't help having symptoms and struggles. And even if she slips up, I'll never be disappointed in her.
How wonderful you both have eachother ❤❤
My typical responses to "danger" are either people pleasing, self isolating, or dissociating. Fight is my last resort but I can definitely do it if I need to.
Yeah, but still I am labled the aggressiv one when people keep getting in my face and deny me flight tonavoid the confrontation
@@SingingSealRiana Same.
Hi. Are we twins? Those are my favorite 3 responses too!
My natural temperament is to fight, or to run if I can’t. But I grew up in a cult where women and girls are systematically trained into a fawn response. So you can imagine my willingness to fight for myself and others wasn’t exactly well received... I don’t want to be an aggressive person because of my own values, but my anger is literally what saved me. I suppressed my anger for years and years because that conditioning eventually got to me, but when I couldn’t anymore because I developed fatigue and no longer had the emotional reserves to do so it saved me. It got me out of the cult mindset and it helped me advocate for myself in my relationship which had become toxic because of the influence of the cult. I don’t know yet if our relationship will survive the damage, but it only has a chance because of my anger. Anger isn’t bad, acting on it without thought or care can be but anger is an important and necessary emotion!!
I also think my demand avoidance saved me too, I couldn’t cope with all the expectations placed on me no matter how hard I tried. That’s what caused my fatigue in the first place. I became so sick I could hardly leave the house and that’s when I realised I was being used, no one came to care for me the way I’d been expected to care for others. I can count on one hand the number of people who even checked on me. Before this I’d had far more responsibilities in my religion than the average person. I was volunteering 20hrs on average at one point, everyone knew me. But I was abused constantly for raising concerns and for not being agreeable enough to the men around me. They believed that they could criticise the most minor things about me and that I should respond by immediately apologising and changing: my dress, my haircut, my volunteering for non-religious groups, anything you can imagine. It was only when I was isolated by fatigue that I realised the contradiction. They trusted me with so much responsibility for others, and yet I somehow wasn’t trustworthy enough to be listened to when I raised a concern or even to decide the most inconsequential details of my own life. Instead I was attacked for trying to.
Healthy anger is definitely a protection.
Hey, I think we have a very similar temperament! I wasn’t exactly an angry person, though, I was just very sensitive to injustice done unto me and not tolerant of that at all. It totally revolted and pushed me away from a person if I detected I or someone else wasn’t being treated fairly by them. It didn’t make me angry but it sort of just ruined my perception of that person immediately. I was the child who was asked to play by the bullies at school but refused calmly to if I knew they had rejected someone asking to join in. Landed me as someone the bullies had it out for starting in kindergarten! But I’d do it again in a heartbeat. This temperament of mine, I used to be so ashamed of it because I was treated very poorly by the adults around me for holding them accountable to their wrongs toward me in the best way a child could. I was rarely met with someone ready to listen to my concerns about it and work towards creating a more respectful relationship with me. They usually kept wanting me to just comply on the basis that they were the adult and that just disgusted me further by them, for them to then call me difficult and then tell everyone around me that I was difficult and what not. Now, there is a chance I’m generalizing this behaviour by adults when in reality I think it was mostly my abusive father. My father is a narcissistic emotional and physical abuser. I had a teacher have to call cps on him after finding bruises on my arms and jaw. By then, I was 16 so they told me that they couldn’t remove me from my legal guardian’s care without my okay (but my mother was good and kind and had had no idea my father was abusing me. She was very angry with him and seriously considered divorce). Now, I say my temperament made me feel ashamed of who I was, but it was what saved me from my abusives father. He was emotionally abusive first, and always looked me in the eye telling me in the most condescending tone that I was just a difficult child and poor him, and wouldn’t hear it when I wanted to explain how I felt, naively thinking we could work things out. My mother always listened to my concerns as a child to work through them, explain to me WHY it was important we had to do this thing or another that I didn’t like and really working it out with me. He used that same tone he used to call my sister “defective”, that was the word he used, every time: My sister and I are both very skinny, this is genetic, and runs in our direct family. If anything my sister and I are less skinny than the previous generations. My sister also has this small, inconsequential birth defect that runs in our family, but doesn’t cause them any health problems. Not all but several of our direct family have it, and some wear it like a badge of honour, because there’s nothing wrong with it and I wouldn’t even call it a defect. These were the things he would call her defective for, yes, not only the skinniness but he would point out how the birth defect made her “defective”, ruining her body-image for her and actually managing to make her believe that he was calling defective because according to him she was and he was worried for her as a result. Made her believe he tore her down like that because he cared... She refused to even wear one-piece bathing suits without a shirt our entire lives, which is sort of when my mom started catching on that something was off I think. My sister is doing a lot better now as my mother is spending a lot more time with her, and is slowly working towards improving my sister’s self esteem and helping her look at her body more positively. They talk about clothes and personal style all the time and my sister is getting braver with wearing clothes that don’t hide her birth “defect” and seems a lot more comfortable every time I visit from university. That was a bit of a tangent but my temperament saved me from my father because no matter how hard I tried because I WANTED to be a people pleaser, I couldn’t make the abuse normal to me... I never accepted it, never tolerated it, a few times, he came very close to ending my life: There is a very good reason that hitting a child on the head specifically is outlined as abuse where I live: Children’s little and underdeveloped bones mean their necks are very susceptible to breakage on high impact. Throughout my childhood, I was haunted by stories on the news about children my age at the time who had died because their necks had snapped when their caretaker had hit them in the face under the guise of discipline. I think I remember them so well because those stories really hit home and we’re a marked fear of mine that they could happen to me because my father would hit me so hard in the face that my neck sometimes made horrible cracking noises, was sore and stiff for up to a month thereafter, and I was unable to chew or sleep on the side of my face that had been hit sometimes for 2 weeks. My father also never really did it for discipline, if he had a bad day and needed to blow off some steam, he’d CREATE an argument with me over something silly and unimportant and keep making it escalate by taunting me until he decided he was riled up enough and would then take the remainder of the heat off by being physically violent with me. There was one day where I was so emotionally exhausted that I just wanted to lay down and cry over my predicament, but my temperament wouldn’t allow for that so I told him very clearly that he wasn’t allowed to treat me this way, that this was illegal, and that we both knew it. I paid for it because he grabbed my jaw in his hand with his fingers digging deeply into my lower jaw to the point where I had bruises where his fingers were and pinned me against the wall, got real up close to my face in that threatening way and told me “I can do whatever I want to you” word for word. It felt almost violating it was so gross... He never sexually assaulted me but his tone was so perverted and creepy... It was 100% worth it though because for a second there he had real fear in his eyes when I told him I knew this was not legal. The next day was when I went into class and showed all the bruises on my body to my teacher who called cps
Do you think you would have had a different experience if you had grown up Baptist, Methodist or Catholic?
Sometimes I feel like a dog that's been chained up and hit with a stick. No wonder I've started to bite back.
@@sharonjensen3016 Try not to be physically violent. You will probably get locked up.
Ive gotten angry at people online saying masking is ALWAYS harmful, and this finally explains why. Masking is one of the FEW tools I have to get by. Until very recently I had no one i could just be me around. And maybe my masking is harmful, but when ive been shamed all my life for anything and everything I do, telling me my masking is hurting me without giving any alternative or reassurance to calm me down just feels like im getting told im acting wrong again.
This really explains why I feel so panicked after socializing when everyone around me tells me I seemed calm and natural. I rarely get to just be me, cause the second I've let myself be comfortable I've been attacked by or distanced by my peers. My partner is finally letting me just be, and has been SO supportive. Its wild being able to actually relax and drop the front and trust that he wont abandon me.
The mask is exhausting, Id love to relegate it to an occational tool in my communication box rather than a coerced necessity. Finding myself has made me realize how different i am from it, and how id like to change it and learn to be comfortable without it always on.
Thank you♥️
The Thing IS, masking IS Always harmful, but ITS also the lesser of two evils!!! Just as all and every medication has ITS risky a dac will still perscribe IT, and you should Take IT If the benifits outweigh the Risks! i really fail to get peoples black and Wight world View . . .
Ah. That explains why I didn't know what fawning is. I am very conflict prone. I feel safer in conflict than when trying to people please.
Pleasing people makes me worry I might get backstabbed yet again.
Yet being in conflict puts them squarly in my sight and I don't worry about being backstabbed.
Same. Imo fawning can manifest in ways that are manipulative and dishonest. Interactions where I have been accused of eliciting / benefiting from a fawn response have been extremely confusing as they imply that I was wrong to take what someone says at face value, and that the correct response would have been to disbelieve them?
@@crashtestbunny6649 and when you disbelieve them the next time they"ll get insulted for not trusting them. It is as if they are looking for excuses to start something. And it makes me feel like I should just go ahead and start before they can attempt to start.
It has been impossible for me to gain a steady income because I just don't play social games. Especially when I get promised something so I do something. And then they act as if their nose bleeds. And I just can't help myself from treating them like misbehaving kids I need to school.
Life is entertaining tho if you take an absurdist mindset to it.
@@crashtestbunny6649 I just check within myself to see if I was being manipulative. Usually I was not. But good luck convincing the other person. Oh well. Guess I will be avoiding them as much as possible.
I survived my Mother's narcissism by fawning and isolating myself from her when possible. I fawned so much that it's taken me the last 10 years to heal enough to even KNOW what it is that I want. I suppressed my own desires and emotions, and don't think I ever developed my own individuality very much. I'm now learning who I am under that thick crusty mask. It's so amazing.
Orion, this is a topic rarely discussed and I really appreciate your video.
Being a caveman meant having to be a part of a group to survive...so fawning truly was survival. Being cast out was akin to a death sentence for a primitive person.
It's wild how much your comment resonates with me. I also grew up that way with my mom, and just now at 30 and married, I'm finally starting to unmask. She absolutely hates it when I set boundaries and guilt trips me. But I finally flipped out on her and it felt amazingggggg. 😅 turned out that pretending to be who she wanted me to be was killing me. Now that I'm standing up for myself, the relief I feel is incredible. But of course it helps I don't live with her. If I was still under her house rules it'd be a lot harder.
@@Sierra358 I’m dealing with that at 20, except I haven't been able to get away from my dad and am stuck living at home. Setting boundaries is difficult when I get screamed at and berated for even attempting it. I pretty much wasted an entire year because I’ve been so burnt out.
@Fatallydisorganized I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. The bright side is that you are still super young and have plenty of time to enjoy your life to the fullest. Here's my unsolicited advice, but I don't know you, so take it with a grain of salt.
Do whatever you need to survive your father until you can move out and be independent. That might include laying low and faking as if you agree with him. But never forget that it's temporary, he still sucks, and works towards your goals in secret. Then one day, you can just drop it on him, "Hey, Dad, I found a place and signed a lease. I'll be moving out on this day." Then once you're out, you don't have to answer his phone calls or let him come over. That's when you can begin to have your control over your life.
Also very important is to have some people in your life to vent to, validate your feelings, and keep you strong. Even online friends can help with this. My mom gaslit me when I expressed myself, so having other people say, "Hey, your mom actually sucks and you aren't obligated to make her happy" was extremely validating.
Anyways, I don't know your situation, but I swear it'll get better one day. Your dad sounds like a weak and insecure person who relies on scare tactics to try to gain control. People who are secure don't feel the need to control others this way. The fact that you are in this comment section tells me you are resourceful and smart. The fact that you've survived such a challenging person tells me you're resilient and strong. You can do this!
@@Sierra358 I really appreciate the advice. I’ve been feeling lost since February of last year and I think you may have given me the motivation to start working towards my own goals for once. Thank you.
@@Fatallydisorganized Hell yeah you've got this!! Here are some last tips that helped me:
-Keep talking to people about it and researching online to help keep you motivated and informed. Therapy helps a lot, too, but unfortunately, not everyone can access it. Videos like this are great for that reason. And there are lots of licensed and clinically trained therapists on here as well, who discuss these topics a lot.
-Things may get more difficult with your dad going forward, and you might have some really bad days. So keep reminding yourself that you're an adult, your father doesn't own you, you don't owe him ANYTHING, one day you will own your life, and one day you will enjoy your life.
-If you're a gamer, use your favorite character as inspiration and a source of strength. If you're not a gamer, you could do this with any media source. Think of what the character would tell you to do and how they would solve whatever challenge you're facing. It helps if they are super strong and don't take anyone's shit lol.
Final note :) I have some really bad days sometimes where I question every decision I made in my life, but after a good cry and some pep talk, I'm back in the fight. So don't lose hope, I truly believe you can do this. Good luck!!
When a person tells you that they love you after you express your upset..in most cases, especially for me, it is emotional manipulation. When you said it, I had such a visceral flash of that gut pit manipulation from abusers to quiet us down even though they don't truly care what we are saying at all.
What if they actually do love you and they feel like you being upset is pulling away... Should they just keep everything bottled inside because you are upset? When is it their turn to tell you how they feel?
If you respond negatively to the person telling them they love you, shaming them for attempting to "manipulate you" -- are you now not manipulating the person in the above paragraph?
I just think it's a rubric that is way too nuanced to apply in any general sense.
@@JD-mz1rl BOTH can be true. Duality of life..yet there is a difference, of course between both. The intentions behind it. You - I mean in a general term - know who ACTUALLY loves you and won't use manipulations. If you have a safe enough transparent relationship, you will express that you tend to fawn..and well that person will also be aware and make sure to make sure that they know you aren't going back to your old trauma patterns that have been hardwired in you for so long.
Nah, if you aren't one to shame people b/c it's been done to you so much, you won't do it. Also, there is a proper communication approach to it where you take ownership of saying, " Don't think you are manipulating me yet I *FEEL* (keyword) when you say X, it reminds me too much of X bad experiences. Please know that I know you are probably not doing such, yet it's hardwired in me to *FEEL* X way when X stuff is sad to me. (taking FULL OWNERSHIP) and I am doing my best to work on it to re-wire myself." People who own their own stuff KNOW how to talk to someone.
I hope that helps you understand that I can see what you are saying and also I can see what I am saying - both are VALID - AND there is a difference between the two.
I just wish everyone around me understood this. I found a relationship counsellor who was supposed to be "the" person to see if you're neurodivergent. She has proved she doesn't understand. "You're a grown ass man, act like it" I was told, because I fawned, and my wife walked all over me. I was trying to give the counsellor enough info so she could help us work through and understand the fawning. She told me everything is my fault because I didn't advocate for myself and then told my wife "you did nothing wrong" and at the end of the session my wife said "if it happened again, I wouldn't do anything differently". I started the session talking about "I want to feel safe in this relationship". And now I'm completely burntout... again, and my attempt to find help has backfired.
oh man that's really rough! reminds me of how i had suspected i was autistic for years and read and researched it a lot, but when my therapist blew me off on the first mention of it - acting like i had attacked her personally and questioned her professional aptitude, when really all i did was open up to her - i just dropped the entire thing on the spot and never thought about it again until my brother suggested i see a 'hsp specialist' years later. so fawning held me back from finding out the reason for the fawning 🙃
anyways, so here's what i would tell you if i was your... well not therapist i guess, i think they're not 'allowed' to be so direct, but let's say friend: if you don't feel safe in your relationship - leave. i know it's often not that easy or even impossible, but the hardest lesson to learn, which almost all therapists don't acknowledge, is that people who thrive on putting others down not only really exist but even exist in abundance. and they're literally, physically, 100% unable to change. i feel like giving people the benefit of the doubt and forgiving horrible behaviour because we sense the pain behind it are especially common amongst neurodivergent people. and while those are beautiful qualities that are absolutely worth protecting, we can't do so by letting toxic people break us. it's the same as on the bigger societal scale: tolerance can never be absolute, because when the tolerant tolerate the intolerant, they - and tolerance with them - will be wiped out by the intolerant. so your therapist is right in the broadest terms, referring to setting boundaries, but they are CLEARLY not wording it well at all and not doing their job by expecting you to flip a switch instead of them teaching you how. so in case you can't or don't want to leave your wife (right now) there absolutely ARE better ways to deal with toxic behaviour than either fawning or fighting (or the other two threat responses). the first step is to realise that the person won't change and that neither that nor their behavior is your fault. from there you can slowly learn to protect yourself (mostly by not giving them so much ammunition anymore, not playing their game) and find support. remember: first order of business is to survive and that is not being selfish because your presence in the world makes it a better place ❤
edit: toxic people are just this massive blind spot in psychotherapy because it's mainly based on data from people who actively seek help and WANT TO CHANGE. those who can't change will never go to therapy willingly and if they're made to go they will sabotage and/or charm their way out of doing any work - because they know it's useless - so for the therapist all they get is what the victims say and that's objectively much worse data than first hand data, so most therapists just disregard it consciously or subconsciously.
You don't need their permission to leave. I know you already know that. But I'm giving you permission.
It helped me to identify the difference between the behaviors of someone who hates me vs loves me.
Lots of people in my life filled up the hate column more than the love column.
Things to not compromise on
- "Respects my boundaries, meaning when I establish a boundary, they take extra steps back, just to be on the safe side, and they do it graciously, not spitefully
- "Makes an attempt to understand differences, asks meaningful questions, and each conversation grows, not the same question over and over for months"
- i want to go to them when I'm stressed, because they usually help me feel calmer
@@steggopotamus YES 'not the same question over and over'! this is so typical for people who only pretend to care, often even convincing themselves in the moment maybe, but always going back to first positions as soon as they shouted or charmed or tired us down. it's a really cruel form of gaslighting, because when you have to bring something up again and again and they react worse and worse every time, claiming that the issue was solved by 'talking about it', there comes a point when we start to doubt our judgement, feeling like they might actually be right and the only problem is that we are bringing it up again. especially when they were thoroughly loosening our ties to supportive family and friends before (hiding the isolation effort behind love-bombing and future-faking) 🙃
I'm sorry this was your experience. It really sucks to reach out for professional help only to have them be anything but helpful. The fact you explicitly stated you want to feel safe in the relationship should have been the therapist's cue to explore why you don't feel safe and find ways to help you feel safe, not invalidate your feelings. I'm an AuDHD woman who was bullied and emotionally/verbally abused for 15 years in my marriage. We went to couples counselors, individual therapy, workshops, etc for years and nothing ever changed. It wasn't until we saw a counselor experienced with personality disorders (narcissism, specifically) that I understood the dynamic and why the mistreatment continued, despite all the therapy. It might be worth seeing a therapist with a lot of experience with personality disorders and trauma to see if that's part of the dynamic. Just because you're a people-pleaser doesn't mean other people have the right to mistreat you. I've found that healthy people with good boundaries (my good friends) care if I'm hurting, feeling unsafe, over-giving, etc and will check in with me around this and do their part to not mistreat/take advantage of me. The friends who have not done this are no longer my friends (and my then-husband is now my ex).
@@rebeccapope3798 thanks for the reply. Since that comment I have seen a better relationship counsellor with more experience with Autism and personality disorders... but I've seen her individually, as I wanted to examine things slowly and process it all without my partner overloading me. One thing we tried was Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy which I've found fascinating for understanding myself and why I'm vulnerable. It also helped me understand my partner more. I'm able to stay calm through very tense discussions, and because I'm calm, I'm able to observe everything my partner is doing rather than reacting. There seems to be part of her that is trying to trigger me, overload me, but she's not doing it consciously e.g. repeating the same criticism again and again because I didn't react. Calmly disagreeing seems off-putting to her, but it actually seems to calm her. It was like she'd escalate to get her way. My young daughter does the same thing.
So my fawning was not healthy at all, because I've just reinforced to my wife and daughter that they can escalate to get their way. It destroyed my health, and almost (amongst other things) cost us our marriage. I can't change/fix them, but I can focus everything on being calm and not letting my fight/flight/freeze/fawn take over. I can't emotionally regulate, but neither can they, so one of has to to break the cycle.
I sometimes think my autistic fawn response comes also from not being sure what the social expectation is. If I don’t know what I’m SUPPOSED to do or what’s appropriate for me or the other person to do in a situation, I have a hard time speaking up and standing up for myself when a situation is out of line. I fall back on my fawning and people pleasing because I don’t know what else to do. I’m often uncomfortable and sometimes I know I’m being taken advantage of but there’s a voice in my head saying “if you try to stick up for yourself, you may be in the wrong and it will go poorly. Just do what you can to get out of this as quickly as possible and you can process it later.” I used to be a kid that would blow up and have meltdowns but I’ve been conditioned to people please because of the repercussions of that.
Same
Stop trying to even know what the social expectation or queues are, focus on your needs and do what makes you feel comfortable always. Put YOUR needs first. If rejection, criticism, and ostracizing happens: so be it.
I am also in this situation. Speaking up for myself, I'm afraid of having misunderstood something and being ridiculed or scolded for getting upset with what was said or done that wasn't okay.
Still my problem, I fawn only to find out I should have been assertive/aggressive. I've flipped out or shut people off who were fully in the right and it was me who was wrong.
Fawning has been a huge obstacle in my life. But because it is a survival instinct it is faster and stronger than my conscious mind - it is a response, not a choice. I feel a fog in my brain once it starts that prevents me from even processing fast enough to alter the situation in real time. Do you think you could do a video with strategies an autistic person can use to break that cycle and assert their own choice into the situation? Thanks for your videos and working to make sure people feel seen and supported.
I can relate to this, and I would like that video also! I realized recently that in situations of conflict, I often have to take time away from the person/situation in order to figure out what my actual feelings are, because in the moment, it’s hard for me to tap into that when my body’s instinct is to just agree or smooth over the situation as fast as I can. And I often get frustrated with myself, because why can’t I just say what I think? But literally, it doesn’t even make it that far; I don’t know what I think because I’m just trying to keep the other person comfortable at any cost. Now that I know where this reaction comes from, I’m going to really try to get better at tapping into my feelings in the moment.
"it is a response, not a choice." Exactly! I keep trying to tell this "I didnt choose that response" to so many people! But I am hardly ever believed. I am suffering when people are not believing me when I tell them I am having a bodily reflex of fight/flight, and they argue... no you are having a tantrum, no! I am not wanting to do that thing at all! It hurts! flopping on the floor like a fish is embarrassing and painful and my arms flailing hurts me! Please stop the threatening things! And they just wont listen. They dont seem to care. They say they care, but they dont seem to believe me when I say, I need them to stop the sudden noises. I cant handle sudden noises, I scream without choice! I have to strain so hard, everyday, constantly, to try to stop my body from screaming, at any given second, a sudden noise could happen. Constant physical and mental strain. I have no safety as long as I am not being believed about what sets off my fight/flight, with people not understanding what fight/flight is, while saying they do, but yet, they dont, they dont they dont help me reach safety. I hate feeling like this all the time because of other people not understanding how we feel 😵💫 I do not choose to meltdown. My body does that horrible painful thing under certain situations that people put me in, whether they know it or not, other people set off my fight/flight, not me myself. I would do anything to avoid another one, but my access to things I need is severely limited... by people.
And apparently I got pretty emotional in typing this comment. My apologies.
I dont choose to fight/flight. Fight flight is a reflex, not a choice. At least some people understand, I wish everyone understood.
Omg 'faster and stronger than my conscious mind... brain fog'. I do the exact same thing and it's so annoying -___- It takes me days sometimes to process how I really felt.
@@MissShembre Indeed, still takes me days sometimes to figure out why I felt a way I felt, and even longer to put that feeling into words, literally happened this week for me.
Shit I feel this, would love advice from anyone who knows how to stop it, im tired of my “survival instinct” stealing the wheel and inviting people to use me
Thank you so much for this. I was diagnosed with CPTSD many years ago (and PTSD since my teens). I knew about the stress responses, but I didn't make the connection between fawning and masking. Since being outcast from our social group would pose such a huge danger to our prehistoric selves, it makes sense that our problems with social interaction would still cause significant anxiety. It really is life or death to the amygdala.
Yes, exile from the group back then often meant death.
This made me cry, I worked in a construction job for 7 months where I was being chronically bullied but fawned the entire time I couldn’t leave because financial reasons and I didn’t know if I could “pass” another interview, I ended up abusing steroids because I felt unsafe and needed a way to scare others away. It worked kinda but it made me realize the shitty life I have to look forward to.
Much love. Aspie myself with Cptysd....so I am REALLY aware and sensitive. Goth rock musician from the late 80's. I still sing and do all kinds of stuff and I enjoy your channel. Many people are still in the dark about our 'disorder'. Much love man.
😢😢
Mind blown once again! Did you make this video for me? I say this in jest of course. Many Autistic people will recognise fawning playing out in their lives. People pleasing and compromising our values are big ones for me. And the scary one…outbursts/meltdowns. You are a treasure trove of information, the number one channel for info on Autism. You create a safe place for people to comment and not be judged. I’m afraid you are stuck with me! Not in a stalkery way. Is that a word? 😆 I appreciate you.
A new word starts somewhere with someone. 🙌
Totally agree!
This 57yo just learned within the last year that I am on the spectrum. I've watched a lot of supportive vids on CZcams and I think Orion's are the most relevant and best informed. Thanks for the validating content. 👍
Fawning is the bane of my existence. I used to be much worse with this, been saying 'no' the past four years, but it is still a sleeping giant... a ticking time bomb... much like my endless reservoire of resentment-fueled rage. Abuse has but one application - as a weapon against abusers.
Everyone goes through suppression of the True Self in early life, but some go through it more than others, and this can leave one with a "me against the world" mentality. Your sense of self-worth becomes predicated on your ability to protect yourself.
I started saying 'no'. I no longer have friends.
Fawning and freezing were my two go-to responses with my very abusive parents and my abusive now ex-husband. Then I ran away. *So* much happier now.
Oh also, AuDH, though I haven't received an official diagnosis yet. I made the mistake of telling the psychologist that I had a BPD diagnosis and she wrote in her report that I had been "exaggerating symptoms" and had "an inflated sense of self."
Yeah that wasn't triggering at all, like my parents didn't already drill that sentiment into my head 🙄
Not only that, but my response is to fawn, so I am a master at masking. Jesus Christ 🤦
Remember that for NT folks these are rare 'oh wow that was intense' things, but for ND folks it's more of a Tuesday.
Well said - I feel as though I’m burnt out at work by Wednesday- masking, coping, trying to understand how to respond
I've just been diagnosed this year and I still have a lot to learn about autism. I didn't know the concept of fawning, and now I realize I've just done it 3 days ago at work, at my expense... A colleague who is usually very calm and chill just got very mad at me all of a sudden, it came out of nowhere and triggered a meltdown because he was belittling me in front of all our team. It was not my fault, and I was in distress, but instead of affirming my point of view, and telling him he shouldn't talk to me like that, I tried everything to just calm him down. I said maybe I did do something wrong without realizing it and apologised profusely. It got me so distressed I could not attend our usual morning meeting, and had to ask to take the afternoon off because of the meltdown... Afterwards, one of my other colleagues said to me he didn't understand why I let him treat me like this in front of the whole team, as I clearly didn't do anything wrong..
This didn't even cross my mind: if someone is upset, no matter the reason, no matter if I'm at fault or not, it stresses me out so much (especially if it is at work, where people don't know I'm autistic, and I fear having a visible meltdown) that I HAVE to do or say anything that will calm them down...
The sad thing is I now understand how this has made every romantic relation I've had fail: in the beginning I do everything I can to make the other person happy, I completely ignore my own limits and needs, I convince myself that it makes me happy too. This can last for years, but there is always a time where my brain and body can't take it anymore, and suddenly I'm not capable of doing it anymore, and start acting differently. I get more mad and/or sad, i spend more time alone, I shutdown and become more and more sadthat the person does not do anything for me. The person does not understand why I "changed my mind" about things I loved before, or said would always do for them no matter what. And when I said it I really ment it!.. Now it's my fault and you want me to change back, but I can't, and I don’t know how to explain it...
I realize it's not the other person's fault: how would they know what i need if I don't tell them. And I do this uncounciously, I always realize too late that I've done it again... and here comes the guilt!
Some part of me must really think noone could love me if I didn't compromise so much.
The wierd part is I don't do this with my friends.
You did not let him treat you badly. No one say why did you let that bus roll over you. You were doing your best to defuse the situation. You weren’t terribly good at it but it is over. We can only do what we know. You need the tools, experience and confidence to do better. We are all a work in progress.
I choose to flee now. I try and do it in a dignified manner but there aren’t extra points given for style; I get out of there as best I can. I need to feel safe again.
Thanks! This was something I really needed to hear. I do this constantly as a result of my upbringing, given I'm both autistic and ADHD. I noticed a long time ago that I always put the needs of others before my own, now I know why.
Oh shoot, am I fawning right now by doing this? Lol.
Honestly I wanted to do it because this video explains so much of my experience, and that's worth a whole lot more to me than $5.
I really appreciate your support.
🙌 Yes. The value on Orion's drive for accurate knowledge & sharing it with those who are fortunate enough to find him is infinite. 🙏
I find myself doing this mostly at work...especially in stressful situations. My body gets hot and I start to sweat and my face will turn red... especially when things are happening that go against my personal values...like asking one person to do the work of three people as is often the case working in the u.s....when you know very well it's just to benefit a few greedy individuals. I often end up just doing the task to "keep the peace." This video has made me more aware of this. Thanks
Great video and for me very timely. I've been thinking about this exact topic a lot recently (I 'm 57, recently self diagnosed). I have fawned my entire life until now and I'm just beginning to realise the profound effects this has had on everything in my life.
Man this is mind blowing! I have been accused of being a toxic people pleaser. I don’t like conflict and I do people please and enable. I recently found out I am autistic after my granddaughter was diagnosed. This is very healing for me! Thank you
Dont care too much, dont care too little, dont show interest and also reveal your interest immediately, dont take it too seriously and also dont be distant. See, its easy. Its so easy.
I don't know how to avoid it when we have too much to lose when we don't fawn. Unless if you are wealthy and independent enough you need to fawn even when ordering food, so people don't spit on your food. Your family and friends keep their distance or cut you off. Your mechanic rips you off by giving you a higher bill and customer service representatives hang the call when you tell them to f themselves when they are being dishonest and using canned messages to waste your time while not providing a service you paid for. The world sucks when we fawn but I can't seem to get things done otherwise, unless I can overpay handsomely. Sorry 😬
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
@@CricketGirrl Exactly!
One thing I learned the hard way is to never accept people in my life who love me and accept me despite my autism. I no longer wish to be tolerated.
Anyone who is in my life has to love and accept me because of my differences not despite them .If someone doesn't see value in the way my brain works I'm very happy to remove him from my life forever. Love or leave .
Well, I live this way too. But it also means I am very socially isolated@@Alf258
While I can live well "almost alone" I need utilities to work, my apartment to have heat working, my car to function and pass safety inspections etc.
I can't do that without fawning because I can't just open a website, choose what I want, click, pay, done.
For the rest, that's what I do. I buy on line as much as possible. I use self checkout whenever possible. If I go to a McDonald's one of the reasons I choose them is because I can place my order on their device without talking to a person.
I hate the feeling I am always begging for permission or forgiveness when interacting with people, it's exhausting. Even when it's a transaction, we still have to mask and be "polite" instead of just telling what we want/need, pay, done.
Sorry for ranting.
Fawning can be useful. The trick is using it only when necessary. Overall we probably use it too much.
I was finally diagnosed last year. I had always known about Fight/Flight/Freeze responses, but only learned about Fawning this year! Through a year of wonderful counseling, therapy, and sheer willpower to STOP masking and fawning; I have finally embraced my Autism! It has helped in overcoming and moving past an entire life of toxic relationships and abuse. It was very difficult but SO worth it! I feel reborn and really love myself!
Felt this at the core of of my being and it is a what made me suicidal. If wasn't until I got a diagnosis, read books on psychology. Worked on myself to become better cut toxic people off, wrote some articles on my autistic experience. That I realized I actually like who I am and I wouldn't change a thing. Theres some things about being autistic that make me uniquely me.
I had an experience with this where I fawned people who had friends and hobbies that I wanted to be apart of. As a creative person wanting other creative people. It was an awful experience because of not knowing how to put that positive focus on myself first.
This video really hit me close to home. I recently cut off a 10 year long friendship with someone I had feelings for. I spent the majority of that time desperately fawning over her and all it ended up doing was reinforcing abusive behavior. It got so bad she would throw fits when I refused to drop whatever I was doing to go buy her something or help her with something. Things had turned into this messed up in between where an actual romanic relationship or just a physical one was dangled over my head, but was always out of reach due to a myriad of different reasons other than just a flat out rejection. So I gave her her house keys back and never spoke to her again. I still feel like I’m picking up the broken pieces of my personality, and constantly struggle with the urge to go back to her and apologize for what I don’t even know.
I don’t know what purpose this rant really served, but I appreciate this video a lot. You put words to something that I’ve been struggling to process and that is extremely helpful. I still have work to do on myself, but I’m holding a glimmer of hope in my heart for a healthy relationship in the future, with someone who I feel like I can unmask around and set boundaries with that will be respected.
Wishing you freedom from fawning!! I’ve done it my whole life too - watch Ella Enchanted sometime - being gifted with obedience is a curse! I cry my eyes out 😢every time I watch that movie. The self-harm from being manipulated by awful people is so clearly depicted!!! ✨
This one very much speaks to my current work experience. I wish I had a better response than to simply support all those around me whether I feel able to or not.
Melting down once I get home is an almost dauly experience.
Wow. Masking IS fauning! Fantastic insight Orion. I’m going to be thinking about this one for a while. ✌️💕🌻
i was in fight / fawn dealing with my narcissistic alcoholic mother. I had an existential trauma along with fear of growth and developing , reaching any potential I was masking at home as well
I mask the most around my mom. She was abusive. Now she mellowed out a lot but I still don't completely trust her.
I’ve recently been diagnosed as autistic at 38 years old . I’m really struggling with the diagnosis and can’t seem to believe it. I’m also getting tested for adhd again something that I will struggle with.
I must say though I never fawn, infact I do the opposite. I won’t do anything for anyone that I don’t want to do. I don’t care if people don’t like me. The way I look at it if you’re a people pleaser people tend to use you.
I do fawn but I also do the opposite a lot as well.
Same here! Also diagnosed late and I have a feeling it has something to do with that. Being told autism is a flaw at a young age may be a cause of this.
I am the same way but this made me have no friends or partners and it sucks, it's as if you either pretend to be normal, please people and people like you or you don't and you are doomed to be forever alone. Both options make me very uncomfortable and anxious. I try to cope by saying that there has to be some sort of balance, but I really am not sure.
Yes definitely... I have to re watch and re think about this really rough topic. But yes, definitely people abused/abuse me, now I understand better...now i rejected everyone, and I m analyzing, thank to you, what's happening now in my life...i m seeing my mistakes to be too kind, abused, a giver, a naive... Things I want to stop doing...for sure... I don't want no feedback anymore...i m very alone, but thanks to your channel, I m feeling better...yes definitely, I want to stop to fawn people, it s going anywhere, and it's toxic. I can see my face on pictures, when I was not happy with people, when I felt not respected, no accepted... I look really bad, I have a better face now, while alone... Thanks Orion ❤
I can so relate x
I really relate to this, so so much!
Rediscovered my love for solitude and nature again and I feel happier because of it.
I kinda want to move into a forest and be an animal instead 😂
This describes pretty much all of my personal relationships. I do feel very seen and validated. Thank you.
It's hard to quit when it feels like the only thing that works.
So I just learned a lot about myself. I didnt realize how I was fawning when I would be put into sexual situations I didnt want, I hated myself for so long for making what I thought were awful decisions - why let a stranger use me like that? Why if I dont even want it? Now that I know about what Ive been doing, Im going to learn more how to handle my responses in the future. I felt so much shame, I feel so much shame still, but I am so fucking grateful this came up in my rec. I hope I can use this as a new path to figure myself out and learn to stand up for myself rather than submit to abuse like I have for so long. This is the 1st video I've seen of yours, and certainly not the last. Thank you, seriously, thank you. I can begin to heal.
I was SAed as a child and therefore felt that very bad things would happen if I said no. I have to be very careful what situations I get into. Hang in there!
@Lilycat5 I appreciate you sharing, sorry to hear that, I come from a similar background, still learning a lot, so all I can really say is thank you, and you too- hang in there!
@@TheNonAestheticWitch We have the right to say NO!
@JSMasochistVT I was SA'd earlier this year. Unfortunately, fawning both got me into the situation where it happened, and failed to protect me once it started. I felt so gross and couldn't understand why I had "participated" in something I didn't want to happen.
However, it really helped when my therapist explained the fawn response to me. He said it made sense that I fawned because 1) I had no confidence in my ability to win a fight against this bigger, stronger man who had already physically hurt me at that point; 2) since I was in my own home with no one else there, I had nowhere else to run to (unless I were willing to go running outside half-naked by then--which I wasn't); I had already started by freezing, which didn't solve the problem, only gave me time to think about how helpless I felt; so that left me no viable option when I snapped back to reality but to 4) fawn in the hopes of preventing further physical and emotional harm. And I say option, but the thing is, I never made any conscious choice in the moment; my mind and body reacted automatically.
That's my only criticism of @OrionKelly for this video: trauma responses are automatic physiological processes; we don't "choose" which one we'll use. Hope that helps!
9:02 It's important to acknowledge it factually is a real danger. As not fitting in leads to rejection, and even gets people to dislike you, it often leads to becoming a genuine target for verbal and sonetimes physical harassment
Aside from all this eye opening content it has been discovered we have a covert narcissist in the family. People pleasing has been a constant issue in my life as well as other people in my life. It explains every failed or abusive relationship in my life and why i am thinking I just prefer my own company at this point. Really trying to navigate my own self respect at this point. I can think of everything I want to say to everyone but it never leaves my mouth the same way I think it in my head (clearly and concisely) and comes out stunted. I can only say things concisely when I am helping someone else navigate talking to another person and only then it comes out as I think it in my head. So frustrating, and the word no never passes my lips easily if at all.
Learning scripting helped me to find my voice in difficult moments. Having mental scripts that you practice alleviates some of the stress that contributes to freezing and shutdown.
Hope you are doing well ❤
Everything is great. When you described the Autistic Shutdown and Restart, my mind was like, "Wait, that's not everybody?"
But also. There's an effect whereby one can confuse a distress state with enjoyment. Like roller coasters and thriller movies, the adrenaline causes a heightened state that can be enjoyable. Is it possible that this is why I type extravert, yet so completely identify with autistic traits? I gain so much energy from being around people and love to spend so much time around people, but also desperately need to be alone a lot or I start to break down.
Some autistic people are extroverts. I am one of them. There are more introverted autistics but we extroverted autistic people do exist. We get energy being around people but we still have problems with social skills. We also need more alone time than most extroverts.
Learning about the different traits here has helped me understand myself immensely. Once I found out I'm autistic and started researching it, I realize that I now do much less fawning and while fight was always my last resort, I skip the other steps and stand up for myself much more often. It's a relief to hear all this from you and understand what I'm experiencing is "normal". Thank you.
Uncomfortably accurate.
Another well researched, well thought out, well delivered topic. You make such a huge difference in my late-diagnosed life, and my also-late diagnosed partners life!!
Please do a video on domestic violence in our community.
❤
For a few days I have been listening to your shows and I appreciate Your work immensely. I am 61 years old and I finally understand what has been going on with me all my life. All your descriptions of being autistic really ring true to me. What a discovery!and a chance to comprehend my specific reactions.Thank you
Thanks you for this. My last 2 months have been very heavy on the self learning side of things.
I currently suspect that I went from Fawning as a default identity, than grew into Demand Avoidance later in life due to the paradoxical nature of trying to keep everyone content when I in fact don't even understand typical minds.
No matter where I go, what job I have, where I live... I always end up being abused and/or taken advantage by others. It's a permanent life battle that led me to hate people and want to isolate as much as possible.
Thank you. Very helpful. I think it’s compounded if you experience repeated deliberate harm of whatever type, and can’t read the triggers. So fawning seems like a good option even during a fairly minor disagreement because you can’t tell if it will escalate much more seriously.
oh yes, I see where you're going :-) I've been saying for years that masking is fawning and that we develop this protection mechanism and trauma response because daily we are faced with more powerfull people (in power, or just by the fact NT people usually outnumber us in any group, wether it's school, work, familiy). And also the fact we are much more victim of abuse and violence (and not protected by the group factor). But whenever I try to explain this, I'm told I'm exaggerating and so on...
We need to create a state or city for people in the spectrum
TOP NOTCH video !!! EVERY neurodiverse person and family member of a neurodiverse person should listen to this video. No joke. If I could give it a million likes I would. I will do my part to get others to help you reach a billion likes. Hugs and MUCH thanks. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👏👏👏👏👏👏
Not fitting in is dangerous in a tribal setting so the fear response is valid in that sense.
It's dangerous now too
Coming from an abusive relationship (mentally/emotional abuse, not physical) and hearing the term fawning being used makes so much sense.
The other person I was with is indeed a HEAVY people pleaser, and sees nothing wrong with it, eventhough it has gotten them into tricky situations, which they know is happening to them, but don't acknowledge it.
Being such an extreme people pleaser, going to lengths to avoid confrontation, has led to me being in a relationship with someone I couldn't truly know anything about, to truly get to know them.
Not just lying either. It's throughout every aspect of their behaviour.
As example:
I doubt that they could apply this information from this video and work on themselves.
Even if they would watch this video, they would relate, but they would only on a surface level relate and accept. Truly they wouldn't accept or relate, because while they know their behaviour doesn't correlate with those around, at the same time this person is so determined there is nothing wrong with them.
They "know" they're a people pleaser, they "know" it causes issues for them, but they don't *realise* it, because they don't fully accept it.
I don't know what else to say or add here, but it was nice to have a word linked to this type of behaviour, if not for the other person, at least for me to place it in a box, so to speak.
My mind is blown, and I have so much to process.
I always knew people pleasing wasn't the greatest, but I did it to avoid conflict. Lately, I've been feeling the weight of it hard.
I'm 28 years old, and found out about 6 months ago that I have strong signs of autism. I have no official diagnosis, but everything I have read or seen has just been clicking and making me realize so many things about myself.
This video is no exception. I can't even begin to describe what I am feeling watching this. It perfectly describes what I have been doing ALL MY LIFE. It makes so much sense now. The anxiety in group settings and the way I either shut down or mask/people please is a freaking fear response. I can't believe I have been living my life in fear for so long.
I have been trying to stand up for myself a lot more lately, and it is so difficult. But I realized I really don't know who I am anymore, and I need to figure that out, and part of that is to stop people pleasing. To stop going along with whatever else wants and actually ask myself what I want. It feels selfish, amd I feel the guilt and the weight of conflict that could arise, yet it is so important that I do this for my mental health. The burn out has been real.
I really wish I could be more open about this with my friends, but I struggle to put it into words, and they don't seem to really understand the struggle I am having. Which of course leads to more masking and people pleasing, because I am sure they don't want to hear for the upteenth time that I can't handle this or that well. The fear response is strong indeed.
You've given me a lot to think about, and I thank you. Hopefully, I can learn to be a bit more brave and face the fear head on, even with the adrenaline buzzing in my veins and everything screaming at me to avoid it.
I found this video so true for myself and other family members diagnosed with ASD. Thankyou for putting into words the things i have thought and experienced.
I’ve been getting to the “wanting to break this down” place mentally, professionally, and socially, and I’m so so grateful you’re speaking to this. Thank you.
Thank you for speaking to the viewer, not just speaking while the viewer watches! This actually helps me stay engaged and process what you're saying!
Wow I’ve watched hundreds of autism videos, you absolutely nailed this topic (and it totally describes my entire life). Great work and introspection, Orion- thank you!!! LOTS to think about and pay attention to.
Top notch topic of conversation dude! This is the epitome of content that so needed & not talked about enough, 💛🙏 cheers Orion
I want to thank you an so many others for explaining so much of how my brain works after 50 years of not knowing.
A video of yours 4 months ago showed me who I’ve been my entire life without knowing it and I have been in a whirlwind of understanding and grace and forgiveness and making my quality of life so much better ever since.
Just thank you so much.
Perfect video for me. I just learned that I had this problem a week ago. Your timing is great. I have lost so much of my identity trying to fit in, I can at least start working on myself now.
People say we can't read emotions but with how much I mask for the sake of others I beg to differ.
This is really helpful. I avoid people as much as I can. As a child I was called motormouth, spastic, was told I would look like a monster because I sucked my thumb and every single time, and I mean EVERY SINGLE TIME we were going somewhere my mother would say "do not speak" and when we got home she would dissect everything I said and did. I cannot remember one social interaction I have had in my 58 years that I walked away not criticizing myself. I told my momster a few weeks ago about my new diagnosis, she is now ignoring me. I hear nothing from her or my father. Basically, they got the validation that their daughter is deeply flawed. I have kept them at a distance and they live 700+ miles away. The relationship has been distant, but still, it hurt.
I've spent last four years working out a a gym. Every time I go I have a near panic attack. I have avoided meeting people and liked that but over the 4 years, regular people, esp my age and older, have managed to worm their way in. I am glad to have watched this video so I can make sure I pay attention to one more thing I am doing that makes me even more wary. People who meet me think I am funny, but that is my method of fawning. Being funny. They'll say, you should be a comedian. All I am doing is trying to survive.
If my husband of 40 yrs, a fellow aspie, and I, our two dogs, and maybe a horse one day, never saw anyone else, I think we would be in bliss. 😊
I have ADD and am on the autism spectrum, and this sort of defense mechanism is my life in a way. I don't really experience it as being exhausting, though. On the contrary, it saves me a lot of mental energy, because I'd rather glide by in the background than have to fight real battles about real things I have real emotions about. I rather view it as a tool I can and consciously do work with and use. It saves me a lot of energy and stress, of course at the cost that I down-prioritize self expression and sometimes I've felt unsure of who I am or what I want, and yeah, sure, that can be a problem. However, if you've got a job like I do, where you work with people, it's very useful to be able to do this. Fawning removes friction from interactions, and you'll have an easier time getting an elderly to agree to take their weekly shower if you're removing all those parts of yourself that would make for a conflict.
As a sidenote though, the stimming debate is still smoking hot within the neuroatypical community, and I'll guess this once I'll step out of the people pleasing response to say that: It can actually be really upsetting to other neuroatypical people. If I'm at a lecture, and the person in front of me is stimming, shaking their entire chair or wobbling their leg? I won't be able to concentrate at all. Because of my ADD. If you really must stim, please sit in the back of the classroom. Respect goes both ways.
I am working very actively with my personal trauma, after a lifetime of being forced to mask aka. fawn to survive. A lot of the litterature I've encountered is aimed at NTs recovering from trauma, and so the whole autism in a NT world trauma aspect is rarely mentioned. But, when they mention former cult members, and their journeys through trauma/CPTSD, I often feel like my journey mirrors that, in being told my reactions are not valid, being compared unfavorably to others, being told by people in authority/power, that what I experience is wrong, or how I act, doesn't fit the standard in the cult of normal. My whole experience of life, is a life being lived as less than ideal, and then periods of being showered with attention, to be thrown away again, and on a whole... just... not know what the H normal is for me, because of the intense gaslighting on a societal scale, with the rewards for masking often being... huge, compared to being lonely, isolated and demeaned.
Orion, I teach gifted students with many of them are on the spectrum. This is a fascinating video. You expressed the fawning stress response in an amazingly clear manner, which has made profound connections in my mind as I look at my students and own child. Thank you for this!
Im so exhausted trying to keep up. Thank you for this share xx Fawning hmm.. Autism Spectrum….only haft way thru video ❤ already saying thank you ❤
Receiving praise for me is as hard as receiving criticism. Some of the (mine anyway) autism experience is contradictory.
PDA autism can make praise difficult.
Thanks Lilycat. I do tend to fit all the categories under autism. I'll look more into PDA.
Another brilliant video, thank you for explaining this. Can relate to this so much. I do a mixture of these thing and especially trying to please others.
I really related to this video, and I feel like I'm seriously flashing back on all the times I've changed my opinion, or presented myself differently, to get people to like me, or to feel a part of a group.
I always chose "fight". Standing up for myself.
Thank you for this video! About frowning, I noticed that at work i was always choosing avatars very carefully when setting a profile to not let anyone know what my interest are and was feeling like this empty shell without interests around people and sharing the most neutral interests i possibly had at that time… just trying to do my work the best i could. And being so extremely careful with it- that cautioun put me in trouble on top of that too. Meanwhile everyone else was openly sharing stuff, and when i did after months of finally feeling comfortable it was always ending with weird stares… And yea, now after adult diagnosis i still try to figure out not to screw up stuff as i did in all my previous jobs… im so traumatised and i hope i can find a good balance of being ok with myself around people who are not from my special interest circles.
Thanks for this great video. I agreed and could relate to everything you said, as a mom of 2 autistic boys, and recently realized that I am most likely autistic myself. 45 yrs of ppl pleasing just to fit in. Hearing this connection between fawning and masking was a huge help to me figuring this out for myself. I recently heard this on a dif video, but you have a great way of breaking it down and include very helpful relatable examples. For example, I'd automatically say sorry every time someone bumped into me. You're helping me on a personal level and as a mom. Thank you so much! 😊
Bro this video deconstructed every issue I’ve ever had relating to interacting with other humans. 😵💫😵💫😵💫 I literally feel panic when try to unmask because I feel like “if I don’y fit in I’ll die.” It’s a problem and I’m currently trying to build up the courage to find an autistic-friendly therapist or psychiatrist to talk to.
"Autistic people are constantly held to the same standards and expectations as neurotypical people. Except, we don't have a neurotypical brain, and therefore cannot be a neurotypical person. We can only learn to act like one, and that's not the same."
Orion, thank you for articulating this. With every video I watch I learn how to communicate a little better the complex rollercoaster that is my brain, and just how much extra work goes into doing what are basic and mundane tasks for everyone else.
Most other people aren't going to discourage fawning because it suits them and they don't seem to care we hate the situation. It's perfect for them.
Great topic, one that I'm sure a lot of us relate to, I certainly do. My problems would be much more manageable if I had tried to advocate for myself more effectively.
Thanks for pointing this out. I've realized I have cycle of fawning recently and this was good timing. It usually starts with either me getting too into something or it flying over my head (in the autistic, full tilt way where you choose to relax and not mask in that instance) whether it be me talking something up I love, some plans, or expectations. It's followed by some sort of upset due to that disproportionality in the emotional context with that person. Maybe they're just confused contextually, offended rightfully, or not given on how I handled my words. Regardless, that masking part is expected and can be talked through more often than not. What isn't is my course correction. By over apologizing I often take ownership to things I didn't even do. I'll act like I've committed a diabolical crime in some very unassuming circumstances. I'll over apologize, over explain, and swallow all my own feelings over it. What's worse is knowing this with full hindsight even minutes later and having no acceptable way to back peddle. Whether I roll with it or speak up later, people begin to get mad at you unfairly, distrusting you/seeming fake. Meanwhile, you build up this internal spite that you essentially are encouraging constant dismissal and disrespect. The first par t is just autism, but the second comes from the trauma of you and others not understanding that. I don't think it's wrong we actively try to understand people on it's own. The problem comes from investing more to do that for others than yourself. You want to be treated better, but you weren't taught how treat yourself well enough in the moment to begin with. And because it was subconsciously all stick and no carrot, you don't know where the middle is and where to meet people in it. It can be really hard to truthfully treat both yourself, *and* others with compassion simultaneously, but if there's any reason I'm here, built like this, It's going to be to going to keep doing my best. I know you all are too. It's ok. We overthink everything for everyone because we fear not being understood. But you got more people who get you than you may think, and this and many other channels are proof of that.
This has been my most liked video of you. Lots to ponder. Thanks 🙏
Thanks for this excellent video and topic, Orion. I have shared it and I need to listen to it a few More times myself so I can break through the Layers of all my decades of Bad Habits and reactions. Thank you for all that you do and things like this video can Not only improve our lives but can also be life saving for some of us autistic folks.
Started off thinking it was bollocks ended up agreeing with pretty much everything
I get fawned out to the point where I can’t wait to get away from the people I’m having to fawn to…. My dad was autistic and used to do it but it caused him a great deal of stress and to be frank it’s absolutely exhausting!!!!
Thanks so much Orion, this has really helped me understand why I fawn. After resigning from a toxic workplace this week, I needed to see this. I haven’t considered fawning was a response linked to my ASD/ADHD. Nor did I notice that’s a behaviour actively encouraged by society - duh! Of course it is! 🤯 I honestly despised this part of me, I couldn’t understand why my behaviour at work is often at odds with my values. I feel like I can be a bit more self compassionate and motivated to continue doing the work on myself now - maybe I’m not as much of a pathetic broken woman as I thought I was. Thank you!!
First comment yay! Anyways, I wonder if this explains why I am suffering from fawning in school. Good thing I have less than 2 days.
School! Oh yeah, I remember doing fawning at school. Pleasing the teachers, pleasing the other kids around me in order to fit in and avoid any confrontation. Unfortunately the kids pleasing didn’t always go well, as I’m a quiet type, they picked up on it and bullied me. The bullying stopped after a couple of years, because I started (no doubt people pleased them!) hanging around the hardest kid in school. Pretty much always done the people-pleasing. Trouble is (in my experience), it opens the door to abuse, people using you etc.
Do you experience bullying at school?
@@MykeWinters Sorry in advance for the TLDR answer lol. Very much so during my elementary and high school years. In 9th grade, they had two types of special ed classes. One was for the intellectually disabled (not my definition, the schools) and the other who struggled more on their behavior (Mentally ill/troubled - again their label of the class not mine). They put me in with the latter group. After two months in, I was pulled out from Special Ed and school in general after one of the teacher's assistants threatened to give me an f for not having my notes for a science test, when she literally hid my notebook while I was at lunch (found this out a couple days later after she gave me the f when I got a 97% despite not having notes) and nothing was done about the classmate's behavior towards me. She made it known to everyone humiliating me by giving me a f. I developed the people-pleasing tendencies to keep the peace when I am around people, but then I also had to deal with other unsafe environments so it was hard. I'm wrapping up social media courses through an online university. Currently, its not as bad with the bullying side right now, but having to walk on eggshells to please my groups in the team assignments has caused me to fawn frequently. For instance, I have to do group assignments and in these group assignments, I expressed that I like to make choices by picking specific group tasks to work on, instead of this "first come first serve" bullcrap. I did attempt to set boundaries at least 3 times when I didn't feel comfortable with the "first come first serve" approaches. They basically told me no and the professors also dismissed me on the matter, so I am like "okay it will be okay, I'll go ahead and do it everyone else way". I hope this made sense?
@@MykeWinters I can definitely empathize with you on that people pleasing tendency. :( It can be extremely draining, especially when you are stuck pleasing the bullies and keeping the peace with the unsafe people in your life. I hope life is way better for you now? :)
This was so hard for me to watch. Not because it was done poorly, as you never do a bad video, but because I felt actively attacked throughout the whole video.
I look forward to seeing more of your content.