CORTEX DIVE SQUAT - /ENGINEERED
Vložit
- čas přidán 11. 11. 2015
- Too much drive and you're losing energy. Too little and you'll slide into a wall. We'll let him explain...
Learn on Monday, wrench smarter on Sunday. Today we're learning about how to improve your acceleration and braking through managing your car's squat/dive, taught by Cortex Racing founder and Head Engineer, Filip Trojanek!
Introducing a NEW series on /DRIVE, aimed at educating you to build a faster, better, more reliable car: /ENGINEERED. We want to empower our fellow enthusiasts to know more, and do more, by learning from some of the best engineers in the game. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Please make these videos 1 or 2h long so that whoever is talking can explain the entire thing and not just some details. THe people on /engineered cleerly know what they're talking about and can fill 2h on something like tire pressure alone.
This guy is clearly knowledgeable about what he does. But he seems to have a hard time explaining it in a stream line fashion for the general masses which i think is why he comes across as a bit dreary.
Would be great to get him 1 on 1 and talk about it for hours but for a short video i think this is a really hit and miss situation.
+SeaRanger311 Agree, that and he tends to go from talking to a mumble with each sentence.
+SeaRanger311 I get what you're saying, but sometimes you have to separate the person from the message.
searanger i think u said it perfectly. guy is smart n great at what he does just not a good explainer.
+Mari Onette A lot of people have a hard time getting what's in their head out. Especially the fast ones as they are usually blessed with skill sets(ie. talent)that the normal person isn't, but have never had to explain why they are fast to someone who is just starting out. Case in point, I've been a novice instructor for our local autocross club this past year and it's been an eye opener cause I never had to explain how or why I drove like I did to people who had no idea what it took to do this. I really have had to work at being able to explain what I was doing and the most important part, the WHY I did that. I find if you keep it simple and have them work on small areas instead of throwing the book at them, they tend to retain more of what you're trying to convey. But just putting your thoughts about threshold driving a specific course into words is a big enough challenge in itself.
Couldn't agree more. I could not follow what this guy was on about.
Perfect time for this.
Finished my last engineering exam for the semester, now it's time to get that passion back again.
I don't really comment on the content I watch on CZcams, but the Drive engineered series is just incredible. I really enjoy it, I watch each episode multiple times. For someone that wants to be in the automotive industry, this is just an epic source for information. Keep up the great work.
I love these videos! This is one of the best series on CZcams. Excellent work, keep it going!
More of these videos, this guy is extremely knowledgeable and is really good at simplifying everything.
Really enjoy the video, Filip knows his stuff!
Love these Engineered episodes and the tech talk, keep em coming!!
He sounds like... an engineer
one of my favorite series on youtube
Love the series! Also finally someone whoe is not afraid to go into the actual geometry of the problem!
I don't get all the hate... this guy just sounds like a nice dude to me! (The concepts weren't too hard to get either lol...)
Ah! so that explains how K.I.T.T. from Knight Rider could jump when the turbo boost was engaged...
Some advice for the people who don't get what he is talking about, but really want to insight : get yourself a book about driving dynamics and you'll get the illustrations in a few minutes if you have a bit of understanding for mechanics and physics. The information given in this video is quite basic and i'm a bit surprised a lot of the comments are about bad explainations or bad illustrations. We´ve learned all about the behaviour of a car in dynamic situations in 3rd and 4th semester (automotive engineering in germany). If you're really interested, just sit down and read it up, it's that simple. And there is way more interesting stuff about suspension and so on. Sadly nowadays most people want someone to explain all the coherences at once, so they don't have to think by themselves and can talk a little about every aspect as if they were true engineers.
Just my thoughts - don't want to bother anyone.
Can you recommend any titles for us? Thanks in advance
+Leo i can only recommend german titles - for example the book of my professor : haken - grundlagen der fahrzeugdynamik and for engines prof pischinger - verbrennungsmotoren vorlesungsumdruck band 1 & 2
Did anyone ever understand HOW they actually get the car to have "Anti-Squat"? I saw a bunch of lines and percentages but did those correlate to some PHYSICAL thing on the car??
People are complaining that what he said is too complicated... If you have a hard time with it maybe focus on your education instead of on how he should change. CZcams needs more informative, accurate stuff like this.
These segments are great!
Thank you, great video and now I know a little more than I did before. But now I know who to contact on my suspension...
I've got a pretty good understanding of physics and cars, but when theres all of a sudden a bunch of numbers and angles on his piece of paper and he just launched into talking about percentages of anti squat/dive, I had no idea what was being said.
+Fact VS Conspiracy They needed to take that drawing and animate it into motion of wheel traveling up and down(or the chassis squatting or diving)
Basically anti-squat and anti-dive direct the forces that would normally go through springs and dampers, through the support arms. So when there's a 25% anti-dive, only 75% of the load that shifts toward the front axle under braking goes through the springs and dampers. In essence it bypasses the suspension and takes the load (or a portion of it) directly to the tire.
This can also be used in a lateral direction to control the roll of the chassis under cornering. However there's always some kind of a trade off, and in this case it's responsiveness vs. grip over bumpy surfaces and tire wear. Here's a good video related especially to the tire wear case: czcams.com/video/EQzMrbDtndE/video.html
brilliant series. really interesting and informative
3rd and 4th gen F-bodies have a torque arm rear suspension from the factory.
Don't forget the 1987 GNX
I LOVE THIS SHOW PLEASE MAKE MANY MANY MORE!!!
great Video,just something I was wanting to ask,If the torque arm is rigid to the rear axel and pivots on the mount on the Chassis. because the lower arms are on a different arc and length, with-out a sliding member or a de-coupling torque arm, wouldn't the system as drawn on the paper bind in suspension travel? If you pictured both arms were parallel to the ground and you went over a bump and the suspension compressedthe lower arms being on a shorter arc/radius would try and pull the bottom of the diff housing forward against the arc/radius of the axel fixed torque arm causing bind? but yes still a great video and explains the factors really well. just wish it was longer that guy knows his stuff.
Well I just learned a whole bunch of stuff I didn't know I didn't know. Time for more research and to redesign my whole suspension plan.
I love these /ENGINEERED videos
This guy is very smart and this stuff is amazing. I work at a small shop in california and am the only employee and my boss has a guy with a ford ranchero that is full blown race car and we put a whole cortex suspension on it that was designed for a mustang so it all had to be modified slightly but basically its going to be the first ranchero with this type of suspension and its just pretty neat to work at a place where something so awesome is being spawned. It has the torque arm setup he was talking about, and cantilever coilovers facing eachother in the bed.
Old reply but it sounds awesome(the car and setup). Only thing is that there is no such thing as cantilever suspension. Many people call rocker arm with push rod suspension "cantilever" but a cantilever is not a moving system. It is a structure that supports weight. No one says" I have an overhead valve engine with cantilevers" because it's got rocker arms and pushrods not cantilevers. Exact same thing.
Great video!
I think the guy is great and fine at explaining the subject matter. Great video.
Great video covering alot of things i've heard mentioned but never seen explained with diagrams.
lol @ the battlewagon...nice one mr musto
So what do you call it if the car leans back when you break?
I can absorb this type of info endlessly.
Anti-dive and anti-squat are just a way to arrange the suspension geometry in a manner that some part of the forward or rearward shifting load tries to compress the support arms instead of the springs and dampers. In a very simplified example, one could think of it like a minute hand of a clock. When it's 15 past, pressing directly downwards on the hand will rotate it. When it's 5 past, pressing directly downwards will turn a major portion of the force you're using into a compression of the clock hand, while the rest of it rotates it.
I like this new engineering segment
Cortex Torque Arm seems very similar to old school traction bars (ladder bars) that were being added to high HP muscle cars
+Evan Moon finally an explanation that i can kinda understand, and find further info about. lol
Except that ladder bar suspension is the only "suspension" there. In a true ladder bar setup the rear axle has no other suspension components and is not allowed to articulate with imperfections in the road because rear axle physically could not roll about the roll center because the ladder bar prevented it. In sideview, the geometry is very similar, but in plan (top) view and front view it's far less restricting than a ladder bar setup. It makes it very versatile for those of us who actually want our suspension to articulate some to match changes in the road! :)
What happens when you have soft springs and hard dampers?
This guy really know his craft. It would be cool to work on a company like this one that designs and tests suspension components for mustangs.
My buddies audi has terrible anti-squat I guess, because when it hits boost the headlights are useless as they point into the trees.
I sent my 2013 Boss 302 to Filip at Cortex and they took the car to another level. Filip is very knowledgable about how to make a suspension work. The craftsmanship of the Cortex parts are first class. If you have a Mustang and want to take it to the track or want it to be a more enjoyable daily driver - take it to CorteX. You will not be disappointed. I had them install the extreme grip package along with the torque arm/watts link and JRI shocks. I can run 315mm wide tires at all four corners and it looks like the car came from the factory with them. The car handles much better than stock and it is predictable when pushed hard. Filip will take the time to answer your questions and help you build the car you want. He will ask you what you are looking for and make the best suggestion for your budget.
Where can I get a Cortex torque arm?
this guy putting me to sleep with his knowledge
How about FRIC setups? That seems like an ideal (and rather simple) way to handle both dive and squat for sporty cars compared to using Ferro-Nematic suspension systems.
Good explanations here...these guys /Drive is hosting know what they're on about. Now, please can we do an episode on automatic transmissions and/or planetary gears, I have no idea how those things work....here's my understanding: power from the engine goes through the torque converter - a bunch of witchcraft happens - and suddenly there's power at the wheels and we're off! Clearly I have no idea what goes on inside a ZF 6HP26 or a Mercedes 722.6, maybe /Drive can help explain?
Mazda miatas in the 90's (not sure about newer) and the firebird/camaro/trans-am have this kind of linkage underneath. I have done many clutches and transmissions in these and the logic is solid. Although, sometimes those bolts can be a muther to get off... damn tight spaces.
It seems like when the video was edited you were worried the audience would fall asleep during some of the detail stuff. Would it be possible to have a director's cut (engineer's cut?) for the people who want to sit through it? No fancy edits, no switching cameras... just the raw video? Even on a separate channel if you're concerned about diluting the /DRIVE brand.
Great video. Other people complaining about the presenter, but he's an engineer, to whom I'd rather listen. The camera cuts were a bit weird though.
What an engaging person...
I'd like to have a video on off road suspension and how they set it all up for the desert and in the rocks and the differences and everything
Filip is awesome
good stuff
Any tips for FWD?
inspiring information,
Why are people downvoting this? How can you NOT like this video?
wow torque arms sound like a great idea... like the ones in the 4th gen F-body (93-03 Firebirds/Camaro)
I found this one a bit harder to understand. It would have been better had he explained *how* the anti dive and anti squat works - as in the actual mechanics of it. I was a bit lost, and I'm sure many others are too.
But he obviously knows what he's talking about - just not the best explanation on this on. He did much better with the previous video, I think.
DRIVE
Next in this series I suggest Terry Fair from Vorshlag Motorsports in Texas (holds many track records) and shop works on racecars of every make but hes very good on camera and a real passion for teaching others to go fast
Nice! ;D
My boys wicked smaaat
Engineering Explained on CZcams is great about explaining these things and most stuff about automobiles
I really like this series. But you need folks that know how to explain a little better. maybe add some graphics or video that help explain whats going on.
+John Cocktoasten It would have helped to see real cars with/without anti's to illustrate the points.
:)
go watch engineering explained on youtube the guys great at explaining things
I can't agree with the other people here, I find his explanations extremely wooden and hard to follow. Engineering Explained had videos about anti squat and anti dive as well, and they were SO much clearer about what happens where and what it influences…
Not all engineers succeed at conveying concepts to others. That's why some engineers make awful professors and vice versa.
Exactly what happened between 1:45~1:46? The whole idea about the calculation process is missing. I can live with all but this.
+ChesterHsu couldn't agree more, they always seem to fast forward through the part where he explains how the physics actually work.
what are the math formulas?
How does one learn about this without the 'try and miss' of racing? Is there books or some kind of school to look for? Thanks
Carroll Smith's "Engineer to Win" book isn't a bad place to start. Probably a touch simplified but a decent primer. William Mathis has a few books about Mustang suspension in the "Mustang Performance Handbook" series. Mathis is VERY out of date by now, but still covers a lot of particularities to the Fox and Fox4 (SN95) chassis cars as well as some of the older stuff too. Most of which can be, in general, applied to strut front or live axle rear suspensions.
Thanks, apreciate your reply. My goal is not strictly about learning about the Mustangs or only live axle but more about how geometry works. If I was to design a new suspension from scratch, for any car, you know? What do engenniers do first, where to start? But thanks, I'll look into thoso books.
Remember that the purpose of the suspension is to maximize the tire contact patch and do so in a way that allows for a balanced car suspension (for racing anyway this means a car that is neither pushy or loose).
As Collin Chapman once said: "Any suspension, no matter how poorly designed, can be made to work if you simply keep it from moving."
This is the same guy that went on to give us something absolutely awful for rear suspension called the "Chapman Strut" which is a strut based rear suspension with all of the problems of strut suspensions and none of the "benefits". The irony was not lost on me, I promise! :)
He also ironically went on to go to Lotus and give us the "Simplify and add lightness" quote...
.."when you have too much of those things.. your car just sucks.." lol 0:14
The drawing of the graphics was cute at first but not everybody can draw if you were to physically show somebody control alarm I think it be a lot easier to show them exactly what anti-dive is and how you angle control arms to get it
I am a car guy, and I am having difficulties understanding his explanation of the mechanism.
so a torque arm is similar to sway bars - only on a different axis?
+Nick Amarit NO, 2 different things, 2 different ways to control them
+STARSHIPTROOP but dive and squat are similar to roll though - just forwards and backwards instead of side to side; hence why i thought the torque arm (which prevents dive/squat?) is supposed to act like sway bars, which prevent roll.
+Nick Amarit Similar in result, different in function. The torque arm is acting to create a *geometric* anti-, much like roll center height does for roll motion. Sway bars create anti- via elastic force. Something like the FRIC systems F1 teams used would be a similar concept in pitch.
Casey Ringley i guess it's still too complicated for me at the moment. hahaha oh wells, anyways, on to the next question... are aftermarket torque arms difficult to find? (can't seem to find one for an E46 on the internet)
+Nick Amarit You have independant rear suspension, so your differential is already solidly mounted to the car, I'm not sure how you would dial in anti-squat on an independant rear suspension.
Should have been a three part video explaining anti-dive and squat characteristics of the individual suspension types and what changes the characteristics of each then do the third of one type vs the other. In other words, a deeper simplified explanation.
I don't understand why does the new mustang breaks the rear tyres loose easily because it doesn't have much anti squat? Wouldn't having less anti squat improve rear traction because the rear tyres have more weight on them from the car squatting? Just trying to understand this.
+Pratham Rathore The more the car squats the more energy gets lost in the suspension instead of the tires. Having less squat puts more energy in the tires thus allowing them to grip more ;)
+Pratham Rathore Thats not whats happening. Anti squat means more energy is directed straight to the contact patch. less anti dive means more energy is being absorbed by the suspension.
You can in fact have so much anti squat that upon loading the drivetrain up the rear of the car will rise, if you understand the itea of equal and opposite reactions its easy to see why a force pushing the body up must also be pushing the wheels down right? So if the energy at play causes the body to move down the laws of physics say there must be an equal and opposite force pulling the wheels in the opposite direction.
Also you can forget the idea that the way a car reacts during a launch having anything to do with weight transfer. Especially in the very early moments. When someone talks about squat it can have nothing to do with weight transfer because weight cant transfer until the car begins to move and squat/anti squat is in play from the moment torque is applied to the drivetrain.
DrewLSsix I think I understand, or at least I'm beginning to understand. Thanks!
+DrewLSsix That is incorrect. If that was the case, the rear wheels would literally jump up into the wheel wells every time you accelerated hard. The opposite force you're speaking of is acting on the front of the car. So, as the rear squats, the front lifts.
+tayl0rd that's exactly what happens, it's called wheel hop. If you lack anti squat the torque reaction pulls the wheel up towards the vehicle. But once traction is broken that torque is no longer being applied, the suspension works to force the wheel back down thus loading the drivetrain through torque reaction and repeating the process.
I think you should research this, it's not always obvious but it is a thing and it does inform all suspension design concerning driven wheels.
What you are describing is only possible when the vehicle is moving forward. Torque reaction as I describe it comes into play even when the car is stationary and that's why it is so crucial to acceleration and handling.
I get the feeling there was a video before this one that actually showed the mechanisms.
you guys at drive need to get bisimoto on these series...clearly the guy knows what he is doing.
Jared Bossart yes bisi is the man. I think they got him on /Drive.
Top fuel engine episode please
that anti lag doe
“Your car just sucks” 😂😂😂
I wish he didn't draw the torque arm setup all sloppy then fast forward through the drawing of the lower arms and related angles. I understand it basically but I'm forgetting how the instant center is derived from the angles and height of the torque arm.
I wish on a star for a red 2015 s1000rr
Ask him about a Satchell link rear suspension.
I know a little about some of the stuff he talked about, but yeah he didn't really explain it that well at all. The Engineered video with the HRE wheels guy was much better.
A demo on an actual set up would have made this easier to understand.
confused. but thats why hes an engineer lol
Yeah, same here. I also feel like parts are missing from the video. Do paid viewers see the whole thing?
doubt it. youtube red is barely a thing yet
+nismofreak34 They have a paid channel Drive+
I get the feeling that between this video and the last one that they edited bits out cause he refers to stuff like he has explained it but there was nothing in the video.
Ben Carson is that you?
longer videos so he can explain better
when a RS6/7 launches it squates so hard
+vivalaphill hence the NO anti squat, to get maximum mechanical grip
STARSHIPTROOP it has quattro -> therefore totally fine. and its not really ment to be thrown around a track
+vivalaphill which is why the RS cars have RIDICULOUS 0-60 and 1/4 ETs even though they're modern-day land yachts.
Sai Namuduri yep Quattro is the AWD system to have.
Michael Sanderson tell that to koenigsegg. doesn't apply my ass. are you a chassis engineering expert?
Poor guy must be cross-eyed after filming this video. Or at least need a chiropractor for neck pain
Great video, difficult to hear on my phone speaker though, this guy is a bit of a low talker.
I'm someone who has personally installed, set-up and fine tuned Torque Arms, Watts Links, Adjustable LCA's, UCA's, front control arms, sway, end links from all the major aftermarket brands on the exact cars he's talking about - and his explanations still seem a bit disjointed. When it comes to roll center, instant center, CG calculations, anti-dive % I even recognize the math and the video leaves me scratching my head. I think it's possibly the editing.
where is crick filipinni????
I'm a car guy turned engineering student so I really enjoyed the superficial discussion of suspension fundamentals. I recognize for a lot of folks this won't seem like a very informative couple of videos (because the info is hard to understand) but nothing he talked about is new, exotic, or magic. If something he says doesn't make sense or is completely foreign, google it! This guy's got over a decade into the study of suspensions, I would doubt his credibility if he didn't talk about concepts that are challenging for the uneducated viewer to understand. The good news is a person doesn't have to get an engineering degree to get solid handle on what's going on here, the bad news is it's take time and effort. In any event it's on the individual listening/watching to figure this stuff out, not the guy taking time to share some insights after years of dedicated learning.
Get a Citroen with Activa suspension, not an exciting car but has no roll no dive or squat at all. Electronic hydraulic suspension keeps it level at al times.
this guy is so high right now...
Ok, now do the entire video over again, in layman's terms.
fwd car. no squat :cries:
Roll center.
Note to director; open 2 shot not working.
its been 4 months is this channel dead?
man this guy reminds me of paul walker.
CG
This dude always looks like he took a blunt to the face beforehand lmao. Amazing info, but hard to follow at times
The biggest problem with vehicle designers is they are building a vehicle to a price not a level of performance, with the exception of vehicles like the Bugatti Veyron. Every Bugatti costs more to build than it sells for.