How Super Saiyan "Ruined" Dragon Ball
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- This one took a while. With Dragon Ball Magic being leaked, I felt like it'd be fun to go back and write about possibly one of my more spicy opinions regarding Dragon Ball. Super Saiyan is THE iconic transformation so a 10 minute video dissing it might not be ideal lmao. Rereading the Dragon Ball Manga was kind of a mistake, because, looking at Dragon Ball Super now, it makes me hate it even more for how poorly it treated the source material. Anyway, ramble over, enjoy the video and feel free to agree or disagree with my conclusion!
#dragonball #dragonballz #dragonballsuper #goku #supersaiyan
As a devoted fan of Dragon Ball for many years, I completely agree with your assessment. The introduction of the Super Saiyan form felt incredibly earned, and Super Saiyan 2, which unlocked Gohan's full potential, was foreshadowed as far back as Raditz's saga. Super Saiyan 3 and Fusion took us by surprise, and Super Saiyan 4 made sense as a culmination of the Saiyan race, blending elements of Ozaru and Super Saiyan.
GT's conclusion, although bittersweet (with Goku riding a dragon, either deceased or in slumber), provided a satisfying end to the series. For those dissatisfied with GT, it's non-canon, allowing fans to choose the happier ending in the Manga and the start of the Oob chapter.
When the Dragon Ball series resumed after almost two decades, the introduction of the Super Saiyan God transformation was exciting, but then the sudden emergence of Golden Freeza led to the inception of Super Saiyan Blue forms. Super Saiyan Rose and Ultra Instinct, hinted at by Beerus and Whis, felt like fresh, new developments. However, the addition of Beast Gohan, despite its unclear nature, left me puzzled. Then, of course, Black Freeza. Nowadays, Dragon Ball is solely focused on introducing a barrage of new forms one after another while rehashing old sagas in the storyline. Frankly, it makes me wish they had never continued the series in the first place.
Where does it end? Cell Max, Broly, and Golden Freeza are clear throwbacks to the Cell and Freeza Sagas, and Moro's storyline was reminiscent of King Piccolo's plotline and Namec saga. The Universe Tournament Saga merely put a new twist on the Tenkaichi Budokai, and Goku Black, in a way, mirrored the Android Saga but replaced androids with rogue gods. While Granolah's story initially seemed novel, beneath its surface, it ultimately follows the familiar theme of seeking revenge against Saiyans, reminiscent of plotlines we've encountered before, like the Tuffles' vendetta seen in Dr. Raichi and the Baby saga.
The series seems to be stuck in a cycle of recycling past storylines and introducing endless new forms, leaving me longing for the days when the narrative felt more cohesive and grounded.
I think modern dragon ball relies too much on nostalgia.
Example: Beast Gohan transformation is nearly identical to when Gohan went SS2 for the first time,
Dbs Broly and Kale obviously trying mirror Z Broly,
Moro being similar to cell as he ate seven-three, Goku gave him a senzu bean and he tried to blow up the planet a similar way cell did
Also the writers rewriting some of the characters, at the end of the Buu saga Vegeta admitted that Goku will always be the best then throughout the whole of Super Vegeta is back to chasing after Goku and Gohan needing to go through the same arc of forgetting his training like in the buu saga and before the T.o.P
It's the well known difficulty people have of letting go of successful, nostalgic franchises. Happens a lot with classic movie franchises too. Nothing new under the sun here. I personally think the franchise should have ended in DBZ, as even there by the Buu saga it was already heavily relying on this power arms race you have described and characterized as a problem in the post-DBGT stories. My favorite 90's manga/anime is Yu Yu Hakusho, and a big reason why I still like it beyond nostalgic feelings is that it ended at the appropriate time - I actually think there was more to develop in the story while remaining interesting, fresh, and engaging, but I prefer it to have ended where it has than to see Togashi taking the risk of squeezing the story too much and end up ruining it. Knowing when to stop is a virtue to be more exercised in big franchises.
Modern Dragonball also takes from Dragonball Heroes and Minus by having Bardock be a vital character and important to the overall story. He needed no part in the granola arc, he didn't need to be the time breaker, he was a normal Saiyan bent on violence and conquest. He didn't really care about his son and Goku leaving the planet as Bardock returns to it close to its doom is a great story moment. Having him literally be Jor-El and send Goku off planet intentionally is fucking awful
Mordern Dragon Ball is Terr
@@intentionalsystemi agree ending a series before it becomes more boring is much better than Dragging it on
The Super Saiyan form ironically was created to lighten the workload on Toriyama's only assistant. It was his assistant's job to do blackfill in the manga, and giving Goku an appearance where he wouldn't have to do blackfill on Goku's hair or eyes was easier to meet deadlines.
well that's interesting too know
Tons of stories like that exist for all kinds of properties.
I think toriyama was going to end dbz in Namek but later forced to make more so power levels became silly
Actually no it was suppost to end in the cell saga
It was never stated. The only time he implied he would end dragon ball was after to red ribbon army arc.
@@lordberrus5979 No, it was meant to end at the Boo Saga and it did🤓
@@great159 Nope. He wanted to end it at the android saga with Gohan finally surpassing and becoming stronger than Goku. (The android saga wasn't even supposed to have 17, 18 and cell. Akira Toriyama wanted for 19 and 20 to be the main and final villains of Dragon ball)
@@0071slipknotthere has been no official statement on where toriyama exactly wanted dragon ball to end. The only statement that is true was toriyama wanted gohan to become ti main character after the cell saga however fans really didn’t think gohan was interesting enough to be the main staple so goku was brought back. The whole toriyama wanted this to end on this never had enough evidence if any to support the claims. For all we know toriyama could’ve wanted it to end based on the very first arc of og dragon ball.
In my opinion, Kaioken is still the best power-up (design wise and balance wise). High risk and high reward, has pros and cons, it is earned, and its not an overly flashy transformation. SSJ basically was way too broken.
Kaio-ken is probably my favorite technique in the show. When he pulled it off against hit I was jumping out of my seat. It's always been one of the most interesting aspects of Goku's fights.
@@Orion__no yeah. great power should always have a great drawback. kaioken drains your stamina. grade 3 increases your strength, but slows you down, so you cant hit the enemy, which makes it useless most of the time. ssj3 increases everything, but wrecks your stamina, which would work as a drawback if senzu beans werent so broken. blue kaioken tried to make it have a drawback, where goku lost control of his ki afterwards, but that was only a one time thing apparently.
I liked the god-form initially, because it required a ritual, and had a timelimit, but that went out the window pretty fast.
@@proclarushtaonasat Or, you know, you can make it do whatever you want since it's up to the creator on what something does, and Dragon Ball is one of the most beloved animes ever, so Toyiama's ideas worked
@@itsdoomedjack9774 they worked in the beginning, but toriama is forgetful and the later parts are significantly less popular, due to inconsistencies and overuse of stuff that used to work.
@@proclarushtaonasat That’s not true at all. Dragon Ball was massively popular throughout it’s entire run. The only people who hate the other sagas are “fans” who watch dragon ball content like this that think those sagas are filled with flaws even though they’ve never watched the show themselves, or have read the manga. They go based on the opinions of some loser who sits at home making videos about how much they hate an anime because of reasons they’ve nitpicked, even though those nitpicks don’t even hurt the show whatsoever
One thing I think the Buu saga did right was it’s treatment of transformations and power ups. I mean, Buu’s transformations got a little out of hand, but SSJ3 was shown as a power so great it was impossible for a mortal to maintain. So Goku had to teach Goten and Trunks a new method of increasing power with a definite cost-fusion. Both fusions introduced in the Buu saga had different pros and cons that made them interesting and different than just a new level of Super Saiyan. Also, when Gohan had his power unlocked, he appeared to have all the power of SSJ2 and more in his base form, removing the need for a transformation altogether. Unfortunately everything interesting about all of these things was retconned or downplayed to the point of being just another power up akin to Super Saiyan in later iterations.
Super saiyan is the best thing about dragon ball. The problem is dbs ruined super saiyan and made it meaningless cuz of god forms and all that. Dbz was good, it only had 3 forms and each form was introduced in a way that it has lots of weight. Even super saiyan 4 was awesome, the primal ultimate evolution of saiyans. But super just started adding form upon form and color change upon color change and the forms don’t even hold weight since they still weaker than beerus. Dbs ruined dragon ball not super saiyan
I think you misunderstand how Toriyama used power levels in the narrative. They were quite clearly introduced to show that power levels don't matter. Vegeta's obsession with class and power level is his ultimate undoing.
The only way fights were being won on Namek was after characters got some kind of power up to their raw number. I think Vegeta's struggle is seperate from the concept of power levels.
I just went back recently and watched dragonball and dragonball z. Literally the show stops being good after the vegeta vs goku fight. Now I’m a huge fan and could be totally biased but the writing after dragonball just sucks lol
Going back to pre ssj days I kinda miss those fightings where everyone kinda helped(before it was just Goku) and more fights and less Lazer beam shows. I like ki but it feels like there's more ki attacks than actual punch now.
Raditz was interesting in that Goku had to fight his brother and having to team up with his evil rival to stop him and his 1st death was dying with his brother but Gohan helped Goku get the upper hand after having doubts when his brother was begging for his life.
Vegeta out classed Goku but the others Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobi came in clutched and still helped and Krillin and Gohan ended up doing the final blow.
I kinda miss those kinda fights
Yeah maybe taking a page out of JJKs book and jumping the villains might need to return lmao.
This notion needs to die. The fight choreography of DB has only increased as the show goes on. Its clear most people who say this nonsense have never even come CLOSE practicing any real martial art like boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai etc
Fighting is all about angles. The angles from which you can strike and get struck, change completely depending on your fighting style. The angles also change DRAMATICALLY when you can literally fly in all directions at super speed.
Traditional Martial Arts fail when a person an literally fly around your guard and hit you anyway
Literally everyone helped fight every villain in DBZ. I can't even think of one that Goku exclusively fought
That's why the first SSJ transformation was so cool IMO, because while it gave Goku a power boost, you could also see a noticeable (temporary) change in his personality. He was so filled with rage at that point, that he literally tells everyone to back off, because he's about to lose himself. He obviously does calm down a bit later through, but you could tell that he was so overwhelmed with emotions, that he was more than ready to teach Frieza a lesson.
Unfortunately after that, you don't really see SSJ doing that anymore, since they unlock all the various grades, and are able to transform on their will. I wish it took them much longer to perfect them, or if it was a powerup that happens only when its wielder reaches a certain emotional state, or if they're put into serious danger.
Not to mention I'm not a fan of how Super gives out SSJ transformations. In Z most of them felt earned (Goten and Trunks are debatable), but in Super, a lot of the U6 Saiyans achieved SSJ either through just getting yelled at, without any build up or anything, or just through some petty teenage drama, or "tingly feelings". It really undermines the struggles a lot of the previous Saiyans went through
That's mostly where I'm at. Super Saiyan in Super(lol) feels hella unearned even for Cabba.
*Lower Back Tingle* need I say more?
As someone who works out religiously, I can confirm that really understanding how to explain something to another person allows them to rapidly progress. If someone is doing a lift with improper form, and can't get the loaded weight up, it doesn't mean that they don't have the strength. It just means that they need to better understand how to use that strength. Regardless of whether you liked the in-universe explanations, Goku and Vegeta could easily teach other Saiyans how to rapidly reach SSJ. It's a trait that the series has clearly made internet to most (if not all) Saiyans, and it is a physical feat. It's entirely plausible.
To be fair what I'm about to say are just in-universe excuses that don't invalidate your criticisms in any way, but the ridiculously easy SS transformations reached in late Z and Super are pretty well-explained.
Toriyama has confirmed that the transformation permanently changes a Saiyan's DNA, making it easier for any subsequent offspring to become SS themselves. And the Universe 6 Saiyans have been continually described as more civilised and compassionate than the regular ones, making it much easier to reach the 'pure heart' sometimes stated to be required for the form, which explains why it was so easy for Cabba, Kale, etc.
Like I said, it doesn't change that it's narratively unsatisfying, but at least it makes some sense within the worldbuilding of the story.
The characters get more powerful but very rarely fight any better. What i liked in og dragon ball was the choreography, even early Z movies Goku displays grrat mastery of finess, movement and martial arts. That, to me, is where the series peaked. I still love it but I feel there is a disconect where we had creative fights with strategy to overblown ki shooting planet shattering ones.
Totally agree with your assessment which saddens me that so much of the fan base never bother watching the OG Dragonball. I was lucky to grow up watching OGDB first before Z. Watching all the characters progress over time and grow up, everyone was relevant, even Roshi fighting in budokai is jackie chun! Tienshinhan was my favorite fighter in the original dragon ball series and that's hard to fathom after watching Z. His two fights with goku, fight with master roshi, and his fight with yamcha(yes even yamcha was a bad ass in OGDB) was so captivating to watch plus he is the one who pioneered alot of techniques that would go on to be used by Z Fighters. Fights was won thru outsmarting opponents and using techniques(which tended to be their last trump card try and win a battle) rather than transformations and power. Problem with Z is the power scaling got too insane, after namek was just really ridiculous and became a saiyan show, humans become irrelevant and what i hate the most is piccolo whom was my fav character in Z also in the end becomes a little bitch by the buu saga. Which in my opinion, should have never been created. The show would have been better if it ended after namek if not by then, then definitely after cell saga.
i feel either after Namek or Cell would work
I'm sorry, I'm one of those guys, dbz is just peak. I hate alot of comedy in fighting shows
@@supersonicsaga comedy ain't bad unless used incorrectly
Dude they are humans and are weak while saiyans are battled harden warriors
@@keylessdragonball1574 Humans need more better Writing Saiyans are overatted
Maybe if Super Saiyan had a drawback, like Broly where the power can become so great the user loses their sanity, that would get rid of some of the issues for a constant need for greater power. While also making it more impactful despite how many times it may be used, the viewer would always be wondering if this episode is the one where Goku goes a little too far and goes nuts.
The Graded forms are an even more interesting idea for this, like how Broly beefs up and goes Berserk they could’ve added this to those graded forms as well.
If Super Saiyan God were to have introduced some form of intellectual, instinctual, or rank related upgrades, or even giving the user access to new resources like being able to talk to the previous Super Saiyan God, or draw wisdom from deities on a higher plane of consciousnes, attributes like that would give SSG and SSGSS a greater impact going forward.
I hate to bring fanfare into the mix, but if I remember correctly Toyables DBAF explained that Goku was training in a higher plane of existence in the Dragon Realm with Shenlong. This is something that DragonBall has done before in official releases, but has seemingly forgotten since the Beginning of Super. GT is not innocent either, with SSJ4 just being another form with little to now drawbacks that Goku tames asap after achieving it.
New techniques and powers tend to be more interesting than raw power increases I think.
@@Orion__no i absolutely agree, raw power increases become harder to show once your MC has 7-8 different forms that all mainly rely on the validation of weaker bystanders to gawk in awe.
I personally have a love-hate relationships with ssj. I personally think they should have taken the approach that made it less controlled or harder to activate. It could have made it more interesting.
That was my first thought. The fact that it was easily harnessed once someone transformed once was maybe the wrong move. I loved Trunks' introduction but I think that was the moment that Super Saiyan became a problem. All that said, I really like the art and feel in the later part of Z where everyone looks crazy. (Vegito, SS3, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan)
That's where I'm at basically. Just make it more meaningful and I'm cool with it.
And maybe add fusion when things go out of control. The fusion is the only other “transformation” that I really think is useful. Just use it in a very limited short period of time (like givers vs janemba) and I’m fine but ssj1 (which I would simply call legendary ssj, to make it something unique ad it was originally supposed to be) and fusion as the only transformations. Why fusion you may ask. Because it is cool to see two frenemies pulling aside their pride and just fuse because the enemy is too strong. The only thing is that I would use it just once at the end of the z storyline in order to make it extremely relevant. One more thing: I wish Goku had used Kahioken more frequently because it is my favourite power up
As a kid I loved power levels, because nothing was cooler than big numbers getting bigger with different forms
As an adult I decided to nearly completely ditch it (any application of it is just an unreliable measuring source) instead any forms that do appear are more situational (allowing the usage of special techniques otherwise unavailable to the character, or trading off speed for defense, defense for offence and so on)
I agree, but i feel like they could’ve went about it a different way, like super saiyan God had something Goku had to master, and i wish we could’ve seen him master it in resurrection F or in the universe 6 tournaments, the newer transformations really feel like they’re there to sell toys and nothing else :/
As if it wasn’t already evident in the Saiyan Saga… the Namek Saga really solidified the gap between Goku and the other Z Warriors. It changed the entire landscape of the series, a point of no return for the power difference between Goku and just about everyone else on Earth.
listen... if that god damn android can be a park ranger and still keep up with blue goku, I'm sure they can bs the rest of the characters back in lmao.
@@Orion__noexactly
As someone who's been a dbz fan since kai was airing
I think even if we didn't see it then 3 was the nail in the coffin
2 still worked narratively because unlike Super-Saiyan 1 it had a sort of stamina drain, which still gave super saiyan 1 a lot of usage
personally I think looking back it would have been the most healthy for the series to not go past super-saiyan 1
And focus on other ways for the characters to creatively win, or train hard to win, etc etc
Imagine how much more impactful fusion would be if it was just Super-Saiyan 1
Or imagine a really desperate fight where Goku had to try and use Kaioken with Super Saiyan to just keep up
I think one good thing the cell saga handled, was that super saiyan wouldn't always be enough to win
How many times did a super saiyan lose a fight in the cell saga? A pretty decent amount, it upped the stakes
I didn't realize Goku was an entirely different race from humans until I actually got into Dragon Ball. When I found out he was a Saiyan, I thought something that would happen would be that a human would use the dragon balls to wish for Saiyan heritage as a way to stay relevant to the plot; but nope. I haven't finished Z yet but if it ever did happen you would have mentioned it.
I think packing the main cast with saiyans and misplacing the rest of the characters is what ruined the franchise. Also, Goku and Vegeta should never have been a thing.
Super Saiyan 3 is fine and fitting really.
It isn't completely unnecessary or underutilized as it still helped out like when Goku needed Super Saiyan 3 to battle Kid Buu in the end.
It only needed to take a backseat after SS3 not during it.
The new Dragon Ball anime, Dragon Ball Daima, will put aside new forms and focus more on hand to hand combat! This might be the break we Dragon Ball fans deserve.
True
While the differences are admittedly minimal, it did establish in the ToP that blue does use more power to sustain, also there is some differences albeit ones that feel minor, the ki control in SSGSS and blue is generally speaking better, hence why he can use it with Kaioken.
In general I do agree though that it largely just feels like more of the same. Up until and including the Cell saga I was mostly fine with it, the Buu saga is where things really felt like they went off the rails. SSJ3 didn't feel earned or properly built up, it was just sort of there, and then you suddenly had everyone suddenly able to go SSJ. Trunks and Goten got it cause why not, Cabba got it from just a single threat, Caulifla got it by making her back feel tingly, Kale got it because she felt jealous. It pretty much felt like everyone had to keep getting convenient power boosts just to keep them relevant at all to keep up.
Still, as something you touched upon in the video I kind of feel like the issues with SSJ are more a symptom of the power creep ballooning then the form itself. Super has tried to pull this back a bit which is understandable, although it also still feels kind of awkward.
At this point they need to cap the transformations. You’ve got beast and orange to a relative* level with Goku and Vegeta. That’s two more previously underutilized characters that can now keep up. If goku and vegeta get even stronger, we’ll just end up repeating super hero later down the line.
The one thing I take issue with the anime’s and manga’s portrayals is that, they tell us about these differences, but they don’t show it off very well.
We’ve had Super Kaioken before in the movies, with grade 2 at that so the whole “better ki control than SS1”, which once mastered basically becomes a second base form as seen in the cell saga anyways simply doesn’t hold up, just like 90% of the super anime, Blue Kaioken is just another half canon rehashed idea which Toryama doesn’t even acknowledge. The one time it is stated plain and simple that blue’s ki control is completely superior to regular super Saiyan is with perfected blue, the manga peak of the blue form and a form which Toryama is more on board with, but which requires more concentration than regular blue, also SSGSS and blue are the same thing, dunno why u wrote them as separate.
To go against ur Goku SS3 point, let’s look at it like this, Goku trained for 7 years straight in a place where he had infinite energy, ofc he would’ve achieved a stronger form by the time he came back, and even after 7 years, the drawbacks of the energy consumption in the alive world haunted Goku, so unlike the nonsense reasons for why the universe 6 saiyans can achieve SS1, Goku having access to a level of power beyond SS2 made more than enough sense. As for Trunks and Goten, we’ve known about half-Saiyans’ potential since forever, if Gohan could reach SS2 at 11, why wouldn’t his brother be able to reach SS1 at 6? It’s not like Goten and Trunks have made any progress since so they’ve been heavily stagnating. SS3 Gotenks makes slightly less sense but knowing that it is a fusion with the potential of 2 hybrids, it’s not too crazy to see him achieving that level of power. But yeah, we agree on super making a joke of the concept of what a super Saiyan is.
@adonicetrig8908 I meant SSG vs Blue. My mistake there.
To clarify I'm not arguing SSJ3 doesn't make sense, simply that from an audiences perspective it doesn't carry much weight to it, especially when compared to the previous 2 SSJ transformations. The first 2 transformations were built up and occurred during emotional highs of their arcs, whereas 3 is treated like "oh BTW I just have this form", while it isn't nearly as jarring as Goten and Trunks being able to go SSJ, it's still a significantly less impactful reveal of the form compared to what came before it.
@@dreamleaf552 yh we can agree on that, ur initial comment makes it sound like “oh I pulled this random form out of my ass because plot”, when yh it wasn’t as impactful as the previous ones but still made sense in context. I didn’t mind Goten and Trunks innately being capable of reaching SS1, compared to the exposure they get now, I can at least look back on the Buu saga and say “man, they used to at least get screen time”, now they’re completely useless and the super hero movie didn’t help them much either, and from what I’ve seen, neither is the manga retelling.
@@ultimatesora4467because… i made a video where i gave my opinion while also liking and positively responding to every person that disagrees with me? Doesn’t sound very toxic to me lil bro
I think the problem with the transformation is simply the level of power that was shown in the Namek saga made it to where going back to Earth ruin the immersion of the story, Because now every Z fighter theoretically should be large planet level at the very least, But the impact of that power is never really shown in the story due to everyone fighting "suppressed" So they don't destroy the planet. I think Goku should have left Earth and gone on space adventures so that the level of power could scale more naturally, They could have put in the narration that due to Goku reaching such a high level of power it was no longer safe for him too remain on earth etc.
> but the impact of that power is never really shown…
Yes!! This is another thing that bothers me in dragon ball sometimes hahah. We’ll see Majin Boo crack open a portal in space time and shout so loud the universe is at stake, and then in a later arc, a villain will blow up a planet or mountain and we’ll see the characters go like:“ how is he so strong!!“
My brother did you forget you beat a universal level threat 3 years ago and you haven’t stopped training since, how is this a surprise to you.
@@Orion__no I have been saying this forever, but a whole lot of fans keep on telling me I'm crazy for pointing it out.
Tbh Kaioken (whether or not you consider it as a technique or a form) was a good concept of form. You get a huge power boost 'till a point where your body can't withstand it, Kaioken also required a certain training in order to use it properly. If King Kai trained Goku before Goku adapting to the 10G force of the planet, Goku's body would've been destroyed instantly because his body was simply not ready for the Kaioken's power up. Also what's good about Kaioken is the fact that you can use more than once but in return you'll impact more damage on your body which was the perfect thing for a Saiyan because of their Zenkai boosts (even though it's complicated in concept).
Besides Kaioken; AUI/UI aims the same thing, it needs a proper training in order to use it. But i think UI is not a Technique nor a Form but a state of body where the body transcends into certain level of existence, UI's aura is unique compared to other Forms or forms of techniques. UI has a "angelic and majestic" glow that looks cosmical and it drains the shit out of the user, that's why i think UI is a State of Body not a form or a technique.
Ultimately it all started to go down hill because of the scouter. I think Frieza would have been far more interesting as evil space emporer. His ships blow up planets, and he can survive in space. The Saiyans and frieza's other soldiers shouldn't have masters of ki manipulation. They should have relied heavily on technology and space weaponry, but with high levels of strength and durability. They could fly with anti gravity belts, there suits make them bullet proof, their space pods can do masdive damage to planets. Freiza's ship could have a weapon powerful enough to destroy planets. No need for frieza to be anything other than fast.
I think you need to understand that the series was supposed to end at Namek. It would've perfectly fit in and made sense.
That said, yes Super Saiyan became a problem with the forced moving further of the series. Ruins the writing.
www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/ Not quite. I kinda agree though, it would've been a nice bow on a really good show. But then again some of the best moments also happen in Cell/Boo Saga so I'm 50/50
@@Orion__no I kinda read the article. Which hardly proves or disproves the intended ending. I'm not gonna sit here reading an hour worth of stuff, but it's a good article. What I will say in response is simply, notice how a lot of plotholes and inconsistencies happened after Namek Arc. Yes they had some before that, but they were minor. The whole Android and Buu saga feels like it wasn't intended in the long run. But the concept of Super Saiyan was intended from the start of Namek. You can tell because Vegeta would talk about it, yet we never truly see it. I think he made Namek, knowing what he wanted to do- but not necessarily Buu or Android. The article itself says that he made it up as he gone. If that's the case, there would've been a point where Namek was the last point. So yes, he may not have said for a fact "It's ending here", but you can tell all his efforts to the conclusion were thought out, at least loosely. The other arcs do not have the long planning length that Namek did. Personally the writing felt different in the Saiyan/Namek Saga. Everything else felt like DragonBall. Where the originals direction kept changing. Does that make sense? I like discussing this.
Basically, the writing in Saiyan/Namek felt thought out, due to the clues and writing that led up to the transformation of Goku. Which didn't disrupt or develop potholes.
The other Sagas don't feel thought out. The others feel like they were written little by little, with no clear end.
Namek had an end goal from the start. The others didn't.
Later Imma edit this and list why (evidence) the others were not planned out like Namek.
Won't lie, though it was an awesome moment, i wish they would've struggled more to actually activate it again after the initial release
I don’t think it ruined Dragonball it should have just been kept more in check. Especially after Cell arc.
honestly, going super saiyan should have been a rare occurance, only happening in super dire situations. i feel like super saiyan god shouldve been the final form of super saiyan, and the majority of the show spent using base form. that would help give the form much more impact and excitement. when you think of ssjg and stepping into the realm of the gods, you expect it to be this tremendous unmatched power, but is easily beaten out by nearly every character. gohan going ssj2 and goku going ssj3, as much as i loved the scenes, the show could do without it. the scene with gohan just going ssj1 would have still been extremely impactful since he was much younger than anyone at the time
Man, congrats for this video and thanks for it! I've been complaining about exactly that for roughly a decade now. Even though the Cell and Buu sagas are golden nostalgia material, thinking in terms of story/character development the whole thing goes into this downward spiral due to the absurd power escalation set in motion since SSJs became a normal thing (I'm re-watching the Android/Cell saga, and it started very well, but things started quickly going downhill after surpassing SSJ powers became a regular thing). I also have no problem with the SSJ concept itself (I actually think it fit perfectly as an end to the Namek saga), but like it's pointed out in the video, the way it created this crazy power arms race between stupidly powerful enemies and SSJs has ruined the rest of DBZ's narrative quality, as it became boring and way too predictable. Even though for first timers seeing higher power spikes in DBZ might be exciting, I don't think it's anywhere near as surprising/impressive by the Buu saga to see things like SSJ 3 like it was to see Goku first become SSJ.
And while I think it's a bit of a shame that non-saiyans have become more and more irrelevant to the story as serious contenders to main enemies, at the same time, given how saiyans were established in DBZ, it was more or less bound to happen that classic DB characters would get far behind eventually; so I have no problem with this process taking place per se either, what bothers me is again the way this process was developed in the series and how fast and wide the gap took place.
The most recent thing I've watched from the DB universe was that Frieza's return movie, which was a huge turnoff for me as expected, so after that I knew I wouldn't be willing to follow any newer series and I'm glad I didn't.
There is something glaring things about Super Saiyan 3 that don’t make narrative sense.
Sure the first transformation was epic, but then everything falls apart once you think about what it implies.
Super Saiyan 3’s first transformation shook the earth and even Kami’s outpost, yet later times when that form and forms even more powerful are used don’t have the same effect.
Toriyama wanted to stop after freeza.
So you could say everything after that isn't canon.
5:49 The manga does explain this somewhat better by showing that the Cell Jr.s survived and were "tamed" by 17. They were his training partners.
I honestly think super saiyan 1 and 2 worked for what they were trying to do, but after super saiyan three they really didn’t need more forms, just have them unlock more power in base while sprinkling in a new form every couple of arcs, it didn’t have to be every single arc was something new, that honestly is what killed super saiyan god so quickly, it went from the power Goku used to protect the earth from beerus to what would have been fodder to golden frieza, honestly I like perfected blue more then super saiyan blue kaioken because blue kaioken feels like a separate power while perfected blue feels like the same form but better just like mastered super saiyan did
To be quite honest as someone who will always be a life long fan of Dragonball.
If I had grown up with the Original to Z I probably would have dropped the series after Nappa kills almost everybody.
I think I look at super Saiyan a little different. Maybe. I understand that we have gone through many variations of super Saiyan. Whenever I look at super Saiyan blue and I’ve been saying this from the very beginning it is super Saiyan one with God ki, that’s it. The same way I look at certain base forms compared to others cause you can’t sit here and tell me that base form Goku cannot defeat super Saiyan three Gotenks. I can say the same thing for Broly and Goku black. Their base forms were ridiculous. And they had to see the super Saiyan transformation compared to if you watch Goten n Trunks fight in base form, there’s a good chance they will die. I also understand that power scaling are all over the place, but I do believe I just showed up basic formula.
Bro, i loved your take on it tho
If they locked ssj into a sleeper form to where he can only use it in a berserk rage state would have made it better
Not even goin to watch because there is zero chance of this being a good video if the title isnt click bait
You said it in the first few seconds. SSJ is part of what makes DB iconic so its literally impossible for DB to be BETTER without SS. Thats what "ruined" means bro
Ahhh you dislike the concept of power levels/scaling that makes more sense, but like im not sure what you expected when a form change is a power up. Thats kind of the point to that... you can argue wether what is being "powered up" to be overcomed is worth it or not or such ig...? But like yeah...
Oh okay okay. you want complexity thats why. I understand your point and i agree since i do love me some complex as hell anime lol. But like form changes are usually used to show something becoming stronger the subversion i suppose would be like debuffed forms making you weaker after transforming into it? Something like that
The power level gaps started becoming too wide apart in the Namek saga. If Gohan and Krillin had a clone army of themselves vs Recoome not even Ginyu they’d still lose; both ki and martial arts techniques wouldn’t help. It’s silly. An impossible win for the hero’s. Those characters are irrelevant in that situation. Recoome just wins.
That’s like watching a boxing match where one boxer can’t land a single blow to the other guy and that other boxer doesn’t even break a sweat destroying his opponent. At that point it’s not a fight it’s a murder. Who wants to watch that? A fight where both fighters struggle is more exciting. Meh it’s whatever.
@@Fonz128 I get your feeling though wasnt trying to be an ass. I still agree and really i wish dragon ball would have kept to its roots more and not relied so heavily on power scaling. It's so weird too because I felt like they subverted power levels being something really super important with the Saiyan Arc... I agree though that would be pretty boring.
I'm pretty much in agreement with @Fonz128. The form being *only* a power up is what causes the issues. If it did something more unique like UI Sign I'd like it a lot more.
I was born on June 24, 1990! I was being born as Dragon Ball chapter 280 was being delivered to comic book stores in Japan for the consumer to buy. As I was being born, the first people on Earth outside Shonen Jump were taking their first sneak peeks at what a Super Saiyan was before delivery from the manufacturing line to the warehouse and finally into the hands of the consumer.
Reading these comments give me a dang aneurysm. SSJ isnt the problem it the writers choices to leave behind the other characters in addition to terrible writing in general
Magic and spiritually always existed in the DB universe. There were PLENTY of plausible ways to make the other fighters stronger
The real problem is the inconsistency of the Dragonballs themselves. They can revive the dead but can't do anything to the saiyans? Like... It cant even direct their ship into the sun? They couldnt just wish themselves to be stronger?
The writers were just not creative at all
I kinda wish they found a different way to power up character besides just transforming. Alas, I even can’t think of a great alternative.
Honestly I never really felt any issue with the forms in dbz-dbs.ssj1 was handled good,ssj2 was handled good(expect design wise cause but that’s down the round),ssj3 was handled not as good but still good,ssjg was good,and ui was handled REALLY good.oh yeah and ssjb uh it exists
Also I’m not letting this slide 0:07 when did ssj have red and black aura?or better yet when did ssj have electricity?oh yeah and don’t even get me started with the lore of the form.it’s obviously more similar to dark ssjb or giblets ssjg with dark ki energy form thing.(also how comes no mf talks about giga cat Mario his similar to ssj two.
Dragon Ball fights turned from fights based on skillfull techniques and strength to fights almost only based on powerscales and power-ups
Back then when SSJ actually mean so much, now ruin by godly powers...
Not gonna lie when I started watching Dragon ball it was for the that super saiyan moment. Then years later they’re gods and all the other power boosts. Just seemed like Pokémon gotta catch all the new power levels at this point
This is why I like my idea for a what if. Those dragon ball what if videos get insane amounts of views. This one involves one of the z warrior earthlings like krillin or yamcha sick and tired of the sayians being so much stronger than everyone. So he collects the dragon balls to wish to be a super sayian either permanently or for a day. But the dragon misheard him for some reason or another and thinks the wish is “make everyone a super sayian”. Lol
i can see the appeal. Having fan favorite characters that were cool af not do anything anymore is a real bummer.
Actually, that's a good point. Why haven't any of them tried that?
Toriyama did say something about cutting back on the transformations back in 2014.
"Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."
I.E. By making his base form stronger, his transformations also become stronger. So it's more efficient for Goku to focus on his base form and Super Saiyan.
I would normally agree, but they don’t really bother showing us this is any meaningful way, nor does this change the fact that basically every form outside of blue is now instantly useless in a real fight.
I disagree. It wasn’t Super Saiyan that ruined Dragon Ball. It was Dragon Ball Super that ruined Dragon Ball.
Are you braindead?
@@sydneyowusu3750no
I think that the over saturation of SSJ forms is what ruined it for me. Before I enjoyed it when someone transformed. Now I enjoy the base form more.
Very detailed review! I learned so much from this very cool and informative channel. Keep it up!
thanks Rr--. Random guy.
I think the problem with Dragon Ball's fights now is that it's always about "breaking through your limits" or whatever. However, 'limit' in Dragon Ball is now solely defined by whatever physical characteristic the character has up their sleeve...which just means whatever new transformation they could possibly have, majority of the time.
Characters fighting smartly has no reward because that would mean using teamwork or some OTHER way to defeat the villain without Goku having to transform yet again, which I fucking hate.
Like, compare Goku defeating Frieza or other villains of the week and compare that to Iron Man defeating Thanos in Endgame. Iron Man defeats Thanos by gaining a power up, but it wasn't as though the battlefield was solely dependent on Iron Man. Yes, he's stronger than Hawkeye or Spiderman but he's not the strongest there yet he can still contribute. Compare this to Dragon Ball where unless you're named Goku or have a relative power level to the villain, you will be shitstomped and hell, even Goku will be unless he pulls another transformation.
Characters with lower power levels offer practically nothing to the fights except for being warm-ups.
Another problem with transformations and abilities in Dragon Ball is that they're all far too simple. There's no variation--they all function the same. Ultra Instinct for Goku is quite literally just another transformation for him (Whis even says so in the manga), and despite whatever words they use to butter it up, nothing changes the fact it's still just yet another transformation with the added benefit of being able to dodge easier...which means absolutely nothing when whatever new enemy they face is strong and fast enough to beat Goku. And that's because of one thing--Dragon Ball just seems to hate hax for some reason. An actual interesting ability like Hit's Time Skip? Haha, it's useless if Goku just powers up. Techniques that bind an opponent in place? Wait until they power up and break out of it.
Again, there's 0 fucking hax DESPITE THE FACT THESE ARE GUYS THAT CAN BREAK THE UNIVERSE. Literally no cool ability matters, only braindead punches and energy blasts.
Like, man, what if God and Blue gave fire and ice powers respectively? There'd be an actual point to using those forms because now you could have Goku freeze or set his opponent on fire. But nope! Punching and firing energy blasts like idiots are all that matters, yippee.
EDIT: Ultra Instinct is also just another physical ability. There's no reality warping cool Nasuverse type shit, it's just a boring auto dodge that means nothing once Goku finds an opponent stronger than him. Ultra Ego is too, but at least it has Hakai in it's arsenal, which....is a destructive energy blast that can be resisted if the opponent is strong enough. Okay, cool, whatever, at least the baseline definition of it is cool enough I guess.
The ultra instinct stuff is pretty baffling. I liked that in the Kefla fight, Goku couldn’t really do as much damage but could constantly dodge her attacks. He doesn’t beat her by being outright stronger, but by surfing on her beam and knocking her out of the ring.
Goku literally had to learn how to beat Hit's Time Skip so.
@@Xoulrath_ He beat it by becoming more powerful
@@markandrew287 nope.
@@Xoulrath_No, he did. He literally beats Hit in the anime by going stacking Kaioken, AKA becoming more powerful. In the Manga, God is enough to put Hit on the ropes and it explains to us that "Hit's time skip only works well on those less powerful than him."
@5:53 Nah see I've got this actually.
I've thought about it for some time. And thinking about it believe it kinda make sense when one double checks it.
See Android 17 & 18 were kidnapped as children and made into who they were by Dr. Gero.
And as delinquents along with his sister, Android 17 with no training whatsoever, was kept in a pod for over a decade of his life, where Gero was still despite all imagine able to create Two Ultimate Super Androids with Base Power level of Far Above Multiple Super Saiyan Fighters with 3 years of training who themselves were stronger than the Strongest Being in The Universe.
Now pause for a moment and think about that. That is Android 17 and 18 untrained unattune Base. Their Base?! They didn't have their Potential Unlocked as far as we know they have never trained a day in their lives and for all intents and purposes were also likewise a little rusty.
Similar to Frieza they are effectively mutants gifted with natural power far above their counterparts.
It only took the Dragon Team 3 years of extra of training once they realized they could to surpass Frieza's power on Namek. And Frieza, as an organic mutant with 4 -6 months more months beating someone up as training for the first time in his life managed to reach the same level of power as SSB Goku & Vegeta in short amount of mere months
Meanwhile both Androids 17 & 18 are cybernetically enhanced mutant twins with Infinite Stamina and Energy who after the Cell Saga were given 8 straight years of unresting day and in day out Micro Battles again Various Poachers with increasing technology, Rare Beasts, (Aliens), and to add from the manga equal to Cell Level: Cell Juniors and micro threats on a constant day in and day out bases until they were finally tamed as a form of getting use to use to the powers they acquired from Gero and training for the first time in their lives, ever had since they were Normal Humans/Mortals. Not only does the narration support that they should be as strong as they are but its amazing they aren't even stronger as there are likewise even stronger artificial and natural threats that already exists throughout the multiverse as well.
I wouldn't mind some kind of explanation like this, the only issue is that toriyama is notorious for being forgetful and not thinking things out ahead of time. So I doubt when he's asked about how strong 17 is, he gives as accurate or thought out an answer as this. To him it's probably "he trained for a long time good enough". Thanks for the compliment on the other comment btw, glad you enjoyed :)
EVERYTHING after SSJ and SSJ2 are TRASH!💯
Even SSJ4?
@@kimberlyfrye8116nah ssj4 is cool asf
@@ScarlettTheGoat-s8s YESSSIRR
@@kimberlyfrye8116 👏
@@ScarlettTheGoat-s8s you only think it's cool because it's hella over designed
Going past 3 so easily was kinda too far me
I agree with you man, though I don’t think it RUINED Dragon Ball because we still can enjoy fights I do think it definitely became annoying to think about. Honestly tho given how inconsistent Dragon Ball is with there canon I feel like they can totally fix it, and you already gave the solution so I hold out hope that one day it isn’t so power scale based anymore.
I hear you, but i mean going that far back and retcon from that point on and wonder what dragon ball couldve been w/o it, you might as well write your own story. Ssj has been apart of dragon ball longer than it hasn't. Its like wanting goku to never have been an alien or if it remained martial arts only with no universal threats. And im not saying those are bad ideas, i love og dragon ball as much as Z, but it is as much apart of dragon ball as the tenkai ichi budokai is. Especially by now. But i understand the sentiment. I feel the same way about Boruto, but im ok with naruto ending at shippuden as far as im concerned. But it's Toriyama's story, all we can do is respect where he wants to take it. We can disagree with the direction and we can wish it had gone our way, but to say he ruined his story is purely a subjective statement and a matter of preference. Art is never for the audience to dictate. Art is meant to take in another person's sentiment, to feel what the artist wanted to be felt. Write your own story if you want it to go your way.
it was just too good a story to pass up the whole frieza saga really. as a writer its good to tell a story like there is no tomorrow and make it awesome and figure the rest out later. just the holes in continuity are really annoying. oh frieza is the strongest in the universe ....accept for beerus and then etc etc.
Umm, the second part of your statement is exactly why it's not good to do that. A good writer outlines their work from start to finish for that exact reason. To prevent inconsistencies and what have you. Like yeah there are some people who write on the fly and make it work. But in general I wouldn't say that's a reliable strategy. Unfortunately Shonen writer's don't get that kind of prep time creating issues like this.
I dunno if this is the fault of SSj, but rather the nonsense power creep. The second major villain in Z is already coined as the strongest in the universe. Why Would Frieza already be the top dog? It then requires retcons, weird plots of an earthlings building the next strongest beings in the universe. The constant race for power ups is fueled by enemies that are stronger than they need to be
this is why i love early dragon ball z, not only for its style but the super saiyan got really old later in the seriese, it became unsuprising when goku got another super saiyan form at a point, they could easily have done something with other creative forms but they held onto the super saiyan form until even they got tired of the name so they added ultra instinct
Go watch the 1st Cooler movie, Super saiyan was majestic in that movie
Way I see it;
SSJ: True Saiyan Form unlocked, unrefined, potential not yet realized. "Go."
SSJ2: Refined, potential not yet realized. Perfect Saiyan Form. "Go further."
SSJ3: Potential realized, unstable, massive stamina consumption. "Gone too far, go back."
To explain; SSJ is the true form of the Saiyan race, it unlocks their true powers, but it's a new power which the user is not yet used to. Think of it as having a bike but you don't yet have the balance to ride it, so the training wheels are still on. SSJ2 is just SSJ perfected. The user is now attuned to the power increase and can use it well, so the training wheels come off, but the user can't help but feel that there is still more to it. That would be SSJ3. Pure power, maxed out, buff as hell, eye brows no longed needed as the user won't even break a sweat while kicking ass, but it uses massive amounts of stamina to maintain the form. Despite its massive buff, it's impractical in battle, so the user dials it back to the absolute maximum (sparky-go-brrr) of SSJ2 in favor of much fairer stamina usage.
Blue, hold on, we'll come back to God. Blue: Should have been Vegeta's own unique power-up, that only Vegeta can use because of his royal blood being the purest form of Saiyan blood. Goku cannot, will not, will never, ever achieve SSJB. Vegeta triggered the form after realizing that this entire time Goku has had....
God: What the fuck is even the point in this dumbass form?! Goku has literally had God Ki since the moment King Kai taught him the Kaioken. Kaioken is Goku tapping into God Ki. Every time Goku activates Kaioken, he is literally using God Ki, or Kai Ki to be more accurate. So why didn't they just say; Hey, Goku, you know that technique you've been using this entire time that completely fucks up your body every time you use it? Why don't you try doing the exact same fucking thing that you've already done with SSJ and try to train your body to sustain Kaioken indefinitely so that it doesn't fuck up your body when you use it? There. Goku's exclusive form, SSJG, using the Kai Ki that King Kai literally handed him to defeat Vegeta, a form that Vegeta should never have because he has never been granted Kai Ki.
Blue Revisited: After Vegeta realizes that he will literally never be able to keep up with Goku because of the Kaioken Technique acting as a multiplier - multiplying Goku's limit no matter what form he uses, he literally creates his own technique to replicate Goku's Kaioken. Now Vegeta can truly keep up with Goku, even when Goku uses Kaioken.
Remembers me so much on naruto after pain arc. All the wits stop mattering and it's all power ups from there. Sure once in a while this kind of battles are fine (Gaara vs Lee, Naruto vs Pain) but if they are well handeled. Hate it and for me naruto ends with Pain death
True. As much as I loved that original transformation it really did brick the series. Any character that wasn’t human or Piccolo became completely worthless. Truthfully they needed to do a Super Human transformation so the humans could keep up.
One thing I definitely have to admire GT for is it that it made one new and creative transformation in Super Saiyan 4 to be its flagship form and stuck with it the whole show. It’s so underrated in that aspect where they didn’t just use new forms and power ups to beat every new villain and relied more on tactics. It could’ve very easily gone the route of having Goku going Super Saiyan 5 or something as well but it didn’t and I’m proud of it for that. I wish they’d given Super Saiyan God a similar treatment for DBS but they just had to give us Super Saiyan with Blue hair dye the very next arc…
Not throwin shade at Super Saiyan or anything cause it is undoubtedly a cool power up and will always be the og, but this is why I've always personally found Super Sonic and the chaos emeralds a lot more interesting. It grants him way more than just a power boost, especially with Frontiers and Super Stars. Again, I'm not saying it's out right better or anything, I just prefer it. A better comparison would be Luffy's Gear system though. Yes, every gear is stronger than the last in physically, but they all have their individual uses and do different things. Not trying to be a One Piece fan boy or anything, I have way more of a history with Dragon Ball. I just find the more versatile nature of the gears to be more interesting personally.
What I like to say is that scouters were abandoned, but the levels stayed in the back of Toriyama’s head, power levels never left because how the fight were portrayed, and at the end, transformations, fusions, absorptions, all functionally just a number multipliers.
Saying the super saiyan ruined DB is like saying the introduction of the VAR made football worse but i see your point
I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think SSJ is at fault. In fact, I think it was the best thing to happen to Dragon Ball. What ruined it was the series not ending there, it was the perfect end to a story in every conceivable way: a villain that could destroy planets with ease being defeated by a legendary form Goku achieved by embracing both sides of him, the human (being triggered by Kuririn's death) and the saiyan (promising Vegeta he would avenge him and all other saiyans as the last of their kind), then dying along with Frieza in Namek.
That's valid. I used to agree with ending the series at Namek too, but when I was rereading the manga and watching clips for this video, I just kinda have a hard time being like "I wish Trunks didn't exist" or "I wish Gohan going SSJ2 as unmei no hi is playing didn't exist. The highs that the rest of Z has are incredibly hard to ignore. If not end there, I wish the form got some kind of distinction rather than just being a 50x multiplier.
did you read the dbs manga? because most of your bullet points are answered in it ssgss is a costy form that eats away energy faster than any form, perfected ssgss gives more power but hurts the body, moro was weaker than both goku and vegeta at the beginning and still beat them
Next up, how God transformation has DESTROYED Dragonball.
Actually it'll be about how ki kinda sucks as a powersystem ;)
When Super Saiyan 2 was introduced, it was Gohan who achieved it, not Goku. It worked because it wasn't just a stronger form, it was a completely different character obtaining a new level of power that even the main character couldn't achieve to save the day.
Super Saiyan 3 worked because it wasn't enough in its own saga, and was actually a very impractical form with a draining effect on the user's ki over time despite its great power. Super Saiyan 3 broke the trend of just getting a higher level of Super Saiyan to win and the trend of Super Saiyan being this thing in Goku's back pocket that makes him overwhelming to any enemy.
When Super Saiyan God was introduced, it did actually seem to have a special healing factor and apparently a time limit, but we never see this again. It was also at the time limited to being obtained via a very impractical ritual that later became unnecessary through training. The general problem with it isn't that it exists, but how it was handled later and in particular how its more potent issue was remedied mostly off screen.
When Super Saiyan Blue was introduced, it seemed like it was just a way stronger version of Super Saiyan, but we learn later that turning it on and off too often has a drastic diminishing returns effect on its power output, which ultimately costed Vegeta a loss against Hit. I also shouldn't really need to talk about the risk associated with using Kaioken in general, let alone the anime exclusive Kaioken Blue.
Super Saiyan didn't ruin dragon ball, but the writing did get a bit more lazy at times in Super, especially in the Anime version.
A few issues I have with this. I would agree with your assessment of super saiyan 3, if it wasn't for Goku stating that he could've beaten Boo with it.
I mean, this is kinda the point. Red had some things that seemed to differentiate it from the previous forms, but after BoG and in the ToP, it's just another level Goku can tap into when he doesn't feel like going all out. We can talk about it existing vs being handled, but I can only look at the series as a whole rather than cherry pick one or two statements and go along with it, even if the series shows me otherwise later.
Blue doesn't really have an activation cost, at least not one that impacts the fights in any meanigful way. The writers love to just say these things, but actively choose not to show it. Goku says that he wants to conserve power by not using blue, but Vegeta used it as a demo to Cabba. And when he fights Hit, he never mentions that he's weaker or that the power drop is causing him to lose. He loses because Hit is an assassin and can target Vegetas weak points, rendering his defense useless at this point in time.
This also goes for Blue Kaioken. We're told it puts immense strain on the body and that it's super dangerous, yet the only drawback Goku faces is a single goofy episode. And then once he's "good enough" at ki control or whatever, he can use it without any restriction in the TOP.
We can call it lazy writing (which it is), but the reason it exists in this capacity is because of the precedent that every super saiyan form before it has set.
@@Orion__no SSG is only used that way in the anime. In the manga, it's actually a valid alternative to Blue because it's faster, and can be used in combination with Blue with some training to overcome the power loss problem.
The power loss problem is also directly stated in both the anime and the manga to be the reason why Vegeta lost to Hit the way he did. He was probably going to lose anyway because of Hit's powerset being unknown which left him without a good way to guard against it, but Vegeta's power was diminished greatly because he kept turning Blue on and off in a short time span, rendering it weaker than SSG. As a result, he couldn't even tank a hit let alone put up a fight, he just got one tapped.
Kaioken is still Kaioken in the ToP. Goku always has limits to how high he can safely go, which just happens to be x20 in the ToP. Any higher would have shredded him apart. It also does still tire him out, which was probably a big contribution to his eventual need to resort to using a spirit bomb, something that did not happen in the Manga in which he never combined Kaioken with Blue.
Super Saiyan 2 never renders Super Saiyan 1 into a back pocket "testing grounds" form, and neither does Super Saiyan 3. There's no precedent there. There's a huge struggle to obtain Super Saiyan 2 with Gohan being the only one to do it at first, and then even after he does Goku and Vegeta the next time we see them at the beginning of the Buu Saga are already about as strong as they were going to get by the end of the Buu Saga. The only times we see a character not going all out with multiple transformations is Goku. Once against Vegeta because he wanted it to be a fair fight so he had no intention of using Super Saiyan 3 in that fight to begin with, and once against Buu because he didn't want to rob the next generation of their victory. In neither of these instances is Super Saiyan form power creep holding the series back.
Super does have some lazy writing, but not in regards to the problem you think you see. Blue does replace SSG pretty immediately in the anime, but then after that it's the standard for several whole sagas. In the manga, both forms are valid and even get used together, with SSG having some advantages over Blue and Vegeta using it to gain an upper hand against Black.
It looked like Ultra Instinct was going to be the next replacement when it first showed up, but then Goku couldn't tap back into it for a while, and not long after he learned to do so again he started training to combine it with his other forms and treat it as a sort of new base form. Vegeta has only just recently unlocked Ultra Ego, but I can't imagine any reason why he wouldn't be able to do the same thing. In essence, the issue you are complaining about never actually existed, the real problem with Super is that too much progress is being made off screen/panel, which makes a lot of it feel unearned. Super overall has an unfortunate tendency of feeling like the story is being rushed.
alright, I spent my morning rereading the super manga up until the end of ToP. I feel there's a few things that you're correct about, but in Dragon Ball fashion they end up being made moot as time passes.
You were right about the activation cost of blue causing Vegeta to likely lose and it's something that's mentioned and actually comes back into play during the Goku Black arc. The problem is that, by the end of the arc, we're basically back to where we were 10+ years ago. The way Vegeta used God and Blue interchangeably was definitely cool to see, but that's something that's been in Dragon Ball since Z. Beyond that, Goku ends up "perfecting" Blue at the end by not allowing energy to leak out, the drawback being that his body could be destroyed at any moment. That's a cool statement, but it rings hollow when you never show that drawback in a meaningful way.
After the arc is over, Goku basically perfects this, allowing him to fight Jiren at full power for a long time. He goes in and out of blue like 4-5 times so even the activation cost has been mitigated. This is exactly what happened with Super Saiyan, just a new coat of paint (lol).
2 and 3 absolutely made 1 a "feel your opponent out form". Goku sees Beerus and jumps at him with 1 only to quickly go into 2 and 3 as he realizes Beerus is on another level. After God is introduced and after the Goku Black arc, what reason is for Goku to ever use 1 2 or 3? God is not only stronger, but has the whole "better balance without much stamina drain" aspect.
These issues are very real and they will keep going as long as each individual villain gets stronger and stronger. Freeza doesn't beat Goku and Vegeta because of a technique or strategy, he just trained, got stronger in raw number and now can blitz them in their new peaks. So long as Freeza doesn't get nerfed by the plot (ie. he doesn't keep training), he should never be outpaced by Goku and Vegeta (based on how the story has presented Freeza's talent) unless the two fuse, or more likely, a new transformation/variant of UI and UE get introduced. The cycle will continue and we'll never get more than "I punch harder and kick faster so I win".
@@Orion__no Goku was never able to get around the stamina problem for 3. He was only even able to obtain the form to begin with in the afterlife since his afterlife body doesn't have to worry about stamina, but using it in his living body has always been a huge toll on him. He's not just feeling out his opponents by not jumping straight to 3, he's avoiding overdoing it because he knows that if he blows too much energy on 3 he won't be strong enough to win in any of his prior forms. That's the state of SSJ3 in both the Buu saga and in very early Super.
SSJ2 and SSJ3 don't really get much use in Super anymore, but that's probably because they wanted to avoid the power scaling issues associated with that since SSJ1 is already a 50 times boost. SSJ1 and Blue aren't separate forms. Blue is just Goku and Vegeta in their SSG forms going Super Saiyan 1 on top of that. That is to say, SSG and Blue didn't replace Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan is being used to augment the usage of SSG. It's one of the more clever workarounds I've seen in Shonen anime, as the only other working solution I've seen off the top of my head is with Jojo switching protagonists with every change in story saga.
Once again, the primary issue with Super is what we both keep bringing up at this point, which is its occasionally lazy writing regarding how forms get perfected. Usually if a drawback to a new form or new way to use a form gets brought up, they don't really bother writing in a way on screen for the characters to overcome it with the only real noteworthy exception off the top of my head being when Vegeta used SSG against Black for its speed boost as his answer for how to beat him. In pretty much every other situation, a drawback gets brought up and then by the next story arc it's just kinda not a problem anymore.
In my opinion, Goku vs King Piccolo is the first Dragon Ball Z fight and Son Goku (base form) vs Frieza Final Form is the last Dragon Ball fight. What? Yes, I mean it. There is an overlapse.
Sonic went super long before Goku ever did, and Sonic's transformation wasn't done just to save inking time.
Toriyama just after releasing SSJ; *It will never work. Change the hair color and call it a transformation, how the hfil is that a transformation?? It's a trip to a stylist, no one is gonna buy this!*
Toriyama after seeing the sales and reading the fan mail; *Gonna keep doing this until I run out of colors*
Agree. I've felt this way even more now because of the new series. Super saiyan is supposed to be the strongest in the universe. They were already gods at that point. How do you go even higher than that? While I like SS2 and SS3, it made all the other forms and everyone else as you said feel relegated. I felt they could have made goku's base form in the beginning and each form after that last a bit longer. Maybe have more saiyans attack earth before Goku dies? Delay Goku's SS transformation for a while. Have Earth face invasion from Freeza.Then after that make the humans stronger than SS to make them relevant. Toriyama should remake the original DBZ series and edit it to make each saga last longer.
Hit isn't half as strong as Saiyan blue, but his time skip helps him close the gap. So toriyama knows what he's doing
In battle of gods. Vegeta got a zenkai boost. So Vegeta was able to hit Beerus in his SSJ2 form. Proving that they don’t have to introduce a new form every friggin DB arc.
New forms should be introduced when the stakes are really high “oh Goku is about to die” or like UI when Whis trained it to Goku for years and not ass pulled like SSJ3.
Forms like Vegeta’s SSJ blue evolution are completely pointless. They could’ve just gave Vegeta a zenkai instead.
Hold on...when did vegeta's zenkai boost happen to allow him to do damage to beerus. I thought vegeta was enraged when beerus hit Bulma and that triggered his rage which spiked his powerlevel.
I mean goku used god in battle of gods but then switched to ssj
You’re not dealing with the average saiyan warrior
I agree with your opinion. Super saiyan doesn't have a purpose anymore.
DB should have ended after the Kai Tournament where adult Goku defeated Piccolo.
Goku, Vegeta and Broly should've been the only 3 ssjs and it shouldn't have went any farther then ssj 2
As a fan of dragon ball and z I feel like the super Saiyan form got ruined at 2 points.
1 is when future trunks arrives and goes super to fight freeze. This ruins Goku’s moment as now we know that any saiyan can go super
2 is with SSJ2.
When goku fought Freeza on Namek we has filled with rage. Along with his combat style feeing more limited. I feel like we get a bit of this with Gohan when he fought cell. A downside of the SSJ form being a lack of control and or thought. Along with a drain on power (like what happened to Freeza)
I think it would have been better if Goku realized the issues with the form and instead moved on to focus more on his base form while Vegeta was the one who worked on building up the SSJ. Vegeta so focused on being a SSJ that he over looked the downside of the bulky form going with a pure power mindset meanwhile goku focused on his base and training Gohan to unleash his full power without needing to go SSJ. Goku’s the teaching his fighting intellect to Gohan with his gohans ummm normal(?) intellect combined with Gohans hidden potential I think could make a more interesting story. But meh. I also got pumped for SSJ3 so……
I agree as a whole but you threw out the tourney of power… and them using earlier forms to keep from exhausting themselves… only breaking out the forms as they needed them
The only thing I will defend is ultra instinct. It isn't locked to super saiyan. Anyone who put the effort in can do it, but this still leads to the point you are making in the end since Goku is the only mortal that has done it. That asid.... my god you are right on the money with super saiyan. I hate the fact it made being human irrelevant and going into the "Super" Series, it still made the show heavily favoring the Saiyan race over everyone else.
db without super saiyan is like a pool without water, just facts. Its even gotten to the point where Super saiyan Goku is more iconic than base Goku.
No one who loves the sonic series is mad at super sonic ripping off goku's super form, art always takes inspiration from somewhere afterall and people who can transform into a more powerful form is not a original concept... besides that tho interesting video.
I used to be a big sonic fan so it's just a light jab. Gotta make the intro interesting right :^)
@Orion__no haha i figured but I was really thinking about how super forms are in general even back then. Most of the time they really are just a power boost but youre right they definitely can atleast attempt to be interesting after super saiyan. They just got kinda lazy I guess and started focusing way too much on power scaling
I actually like the end of super, cause they tap back into the idea that more powerful transformatioms have a stamima cost and eventually goku gets tired. Then be barely pulls out the original super saiyan 1 and I think thats awesome
I think every decision in super was a mistake. Bringing Frieza back at all was dumb but Having Frieza turn gold like a super sayan? Are you kidding me? Red and blue hair colors? So lame. Super is all cringe now.
Super Saiyan didn't ruin DB, power levels did.
2:17 no "probably" Goku v Frieza is THE anime fight 💯
Super Saiyan God could have been the chance to get the series out of the power scaling rut it's been in for decades had it been utilized better. When Whis offered Goku the God of Destruction position if he wanted to take it from Beerus it seemed as though any mortal could obtain God ki. So that meant that hypothetically there could have been Namekian Gods and Human Gods, and so on. If that were the case then the rest of the main cast getting God ki could have put everyone on an even playing field again. Obviously Toriyama could still retire characters he had no use for with them not wanting to train to get God ki (Muten Roshi and Yamacha retiring, Tenshinhan being overprotective of Chaouzu etc) but this could have the chance to reset the game board so to speak.
Bro disrespected Sonic. Dislike
I think that the series' current message that power/stats > technique/skill, while less cool and intriguing than than vice versa, is more truthful. Yes, you can make up the gap sometimes, but there comes a point where skill just isn't gonna cut it, and that's the way it is.
Why does this not have more views...
Thanks to ssj, we got the cancerous trend of "New forms = Character Development" in Dbz to Dbs
That's not to say I don't like ssj, cuz I do, it's probably the only form aside from Ssj4 that I genuinely like, but then everything started being about transformations...
As a fan of Sonic and heavily believing Sonic can solo the verse...
Ofc it was a copy, it's a no brainer.
Super sayian saved the franchise .
Dragon Ball didn't need saving lol. It was at the height of its popularity
@@Orion__nonobody said that it made the show more popular let’s be real without the transformations a huge portion of the audience would have got bored with the show lol.
The reason why ppl get inspired to go to the gym or learn marial arts is because of the way super sayain works. A lower colored belt is not gonna beat a higher colored one. This isnt a balanced powersystem where everything has potential if applied correctly, dragonballz and super has been very explicit about how that stuff is seen as inferior. Its why strength can literally negate weird superpowers in dbz. Its a pure metaphor for growth. Its true db was diffrent in that regard, but its how it is
Ehhhh. One of the big themes in OG Dragon Ball was not getting complacent because there’ll always be someone stronger which is why you have to break past your limits. Maybe SSJ is more overt in that sense I guess. But thats kinda the issue, I don’t like by just how much the rest of the cast gets sidelined because of it.
they get sidelind becaus they are weak you just want everyone to be weak just becuse they are strong does not mean that it ruiins it your blaming the wrong form to. The god forms are to blame@@Orion__no