Montage M 8 X: vs Motif ES - AB Test - You won’t believe how similar they Sound!!!
Vložit
- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- In this video, we do a direct AB comparison between the newly released Yamaha Montage MX8 and its great grandfather the Yamaha Motif ES (rack).
All variables were removed in order to provide the most accurate comparison possible.
details are listed below:
A midi cable was connected from the Montage m directly to the motif ES rack. The same keybed was used for both instruments. The outputs from the Montage M and the ES rack were both connected to line inputs on a Focusrite interface. No gain was used at all. A Focusrite interface was used to keep the audio chain as basic as possible and give a reasonable example of what the average user would be listening from or recording through.
The connected midi cables and audio cables (output) allowed both the Montage and the ES rack to be recorded simultaneously into the DAW recording program Logic Pro (for iPad). 2 separate stereo tracks were used PER sound to capture the audio. No effects were used. The files for each track were exported UNCOMPRESSED. No volume boost was added to either unit at any stage of this comparison project. The master volume knob for both units were set to 3'oclock and left there for the duration of the project (about 75% of max volume.)
This sounds like more of a testament of how timeless the Motif ES is. There’s is definitely more clarity in the Montage, but it’s not 20 years worth of difference. It’s not like an M1 piano vs a piano sound now where you can clearly hear a big sonic difference. This is much more nuanced. And if that’s the case, then for church service purposes I’ll stick with my S90 ES.
Makes sense. But the only interesting factor is idea works great when continuing with the sound that's become a staple. But also makes you wonder what's next and what the next s
Generation of staple sounds will be.
@@JuliusDeBerryJr Yeah. That’s a real good point.
I still prefer the motif es and s90 compared to the montage which sounds thinner to my ears. The es just sounds warmer/analog to me. The s90 is the perfect stage piano for church
There is no need for a drastic evolution of the specific timbre, otherwise it would distort it. Yamaha did well to maintain it and lighten the tone slightly. The big evolution is the new samples from different pianos like the German and UP1, processing power, storage and ease of editing. It's important to maintain nostalgia with the contemporary.
I put my stereo ear buds in to fully experience the comparisons. Although the patches are similar, the Montage M8x seems a little more detailed than the ES. Being a proud owner of many Yamaha keyboards and modules (Motif 7 Classic, XS Rack, MX-61, and the MODX7), the new Montage is a keyboard I am seriously considering purchasing. Thanks for the video.
🎹🎹🎹🎹🎹
My please! Stay connected! More on the way.
Probably better quality D/A converters
OOo this should be great as I own the ES rack after doing my research before I got it. Love it!
I hope you enjoy it!!!
Man I was needing a bread and butter piano but I didn’t wanna break the bank. Saw this video and decided to get the es rack
🫣👀🤯😬. Wow glad I could help!!!! That's what the videos are all about! Helping people make INFORMED DECISIONS!!! STAY CONNECTED!
The ES rack is a nice instrument. If you haven't pulled the trigger yet, pls also consider a Motif XS rack. I really liked that one.
@followyourpassion8378 I have had an xs rack and the keyboard before a couple of different times. It sounds thinner or something. The ES has traditionally been one of the favorites from the motif line.
@@JuliusDeBerryJr You are right Motif classic/ES and XS/XF have a different sound engine. The ES sounds warmer and fuller, however, there were a couple of patches on the XS, the full concert grand to name one, that had a higher quality (more sample ROM was used for those). For example, if you were to record a Jazz arrangement with a Jazz kit, acoustic bass, piano and trumpet, I think, it would sound more realistic/detailed/HiFi on the XS than on the ES. Not necessarily "better".
@@JuliusDeBerryJr Interestingly enough, the XS sound engine far more longlived than the ES.
ES 2003-2010 (MO)
XS 2007 - today (MX)
Man, you are right, Julius. They sound very much like each other. Good comparison video, thanks.
Looks like the Yamaha Montage M8 has less compression on the samples, can hear they are the same but higher fidelity, lots of clarity in the sample and top end, but really shows how technology is improving over ten years. It must have been quite an experience for you Julius using those headphones.
Definitely he as Ed that compression difference. Can't remember exactly which sound it was the most obvious in but heard it for sure.
May have been the home piano.
And yes it was fun hearing it over headphones...
@@JuliusDeBerryJrThanks Julius, keep up with the great video content! 😄
If you specifically select the same (ported from Motif) sounds , then yes, you get the same result. Although perhaps with a little more clarity and other reverb effect and such. Basic waveforms are the same. Why not compare the added (M specific) sounds to their Motif counterparts and see if any progress has been made there. Otherwise the comparison is apples with apples. Pretty similar. Also the additions like class compliant audio interface, many more and enhanced controls, better workflow , more sound engines and more polyphony are al neglected. The old sounds are always there in the motif / montage line for downward compatibility. They serve a purpose for upgraders. New stuff is added with each new product. It’s incremental yes, not revolutionary, but not a bad thing by definition. I like this approach , although I agree that more additional new fresh sounds would be very welcome. There is not enough new high quality AWM2 stuff under the hood, like many more and better string sections, modern sounds (year 2024 , not 1990) and other new content.
You play piano and keyboard very well ...did not know you could play like that, fire 🔥
Man, I appreciate those kind words so much. I should be MUCH better. Lol.
Sound similar yes indeed but the montage definitely sounds more rich more full
there are more details on the into the higher frequencies of the montage M sounds that didn't affect the low end details which is a plus for most sounds. Then the stereo pans are more definite. I think which make the montage a good upgrade. however motif ES has been a beast of them all since.
У меня был и motif xs и xf но оставил себе es !! Motif ES на века!!
They do sound very similar. As others have said, the resolution is a bit better on the Montage. But if someone owns the Motif and is expecting a huge upgrade to the Montage, expectations might be lower.
Right but only considering the exact same sounds. Or even other sounds that I didn't demo that are the same.
Basically if you are going to get this montage and use the exact same sounds you were using on your old gear, then it just doesn't make sense.
But if you want to explore the new stuff that they are introducing..... WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY!!!!
I played the Modx and motif series for years. The upgraded sound engine is unrea! It’s a noticeable difference from the get go.
You hear a noticable significant difference in the audio in these files?
They do some quite similar. However, I can hear differences on Full Grand, Stringy, and After 1984 -> the Montage M sounds better to me on those; sounds more full, has more detail in the sound, and has a little more brightness/sizzle.
Yes, I agree. Especially about that top end.
You could go back even further to the DX7, AN1x, SY99 etc. and they are probably the same. AWM2 hasn't changed only more variety. They've basically been repackaging the same stuff from the good old 80s, the age of synths! A CS80 or Oberheim still sounds better than any digital synth and yet we've really only progressed via interfacing, UI, features, storage, DSP power, motion control etc. The sound technology hasn't changed much at all. Modeling components (SCM Yamaha or ACB Roland) is the latest fad. One day AI will do a better job so that we can manipulate realistic sounds using real time key expressions like the Osmose does. But not much has changed in sound quality really only baby steps or different ways to include more sound behaviors/nuances such as super articulations. All that fancy FMx talk and it's still just an old DX7 with a face lift. All rather old technology that we are paying modern pricing for.
Interesting
All of that is accurate, regarding synthesis, but polyphony, articulation, storage and sampling technologies definitely have increased and changed. Specifically, sample-based sounds of past years and roday don't compare, mostly because of faster hardware, with its higher capacities.
Hey Julius, I dont know if it is intentional but I am really liking your new content and the way you are editing your videos... must take so much time! You have a Roland Fantom too right? lots of new content there with the EX upgrade!. Chris
Yes. I've been focusing on some new looks and trying to take the next step with my content. Thank you for noticing. I really appreciate it.
Yes this definitely takes a lot of time. But I enjoy it😊💪🏾!
Yes the new Fantom upgrade brings about another piece of important information and things to focus on.
Are there any specifics thay you are interested in with the Fantom?
I did a live stream the night EX was released. Check it out if you haven't. !!
@@JuliusDeBerryJr To be honest I am in limbo at the moment. I have a Fantom 7 and I really dig it. The only trouble I have is how loud the action is. I suppose it doesn't affect me if I am using headphones but otherwise it can be a little off putting. I was thinking about upgrading to a Fantom 8 so I have held back from getting the EX upgrade. I will check your other Fantom video out... Many thanks, Julius 🙏
Thanks! I have some Fantom and Montage M related content coming soon!
@8:14 was very impressive! Montage sounds more detailed but not 20 yrs better. But how much better can these same sounds get? It's like going from a PS3 to the PS5 but with sound.
Im a happy owner of a original Montage 7, I’ve tried out the new Montage M8X and honestly i believe its an amazing synthesizer but not worth it if you own a Montage already. Back then i use to own a MotifES8 and they have similar sounds to it but in my case is definitely not worth upgrading unless you want the new ANX engine which in my case im not interested. Point is the new Montage M8X is an amazing instrument and if you don’t own a Montage well go for it and give it a try.
@@InciensoWorship I agree, I have A MODX and I tried one of at Guitar Center and I felt satisfied with what I already have. I do like how it feels overall as an instrument though.
@@jaybeetdown Right? I was messing around with my montage earlier today @ my studio and im really happy with it. In my case i like having best of both worlds hardware and software so i got a Mac Studio M2 Max running high end VST’S pianos from Native Instruments & Spectrasonic’s keyscape and Omnisphere and oh boy its game over. Im running everything trough my Midas 32 Digital Mixer and from there to my Universal Audio Apollo Twin MKII. If anyone has a montage well my advice is just to get a good mac with some good Ram & SSD and there you go a brand new and affordable set up.
PS3 to PS5 was a significant jump.
I just bought Montage M7 to replace my Motif XF. And yes. The motif is inside. Could be 80 % the same. Then the Montage M have some additions, but they could be better covered with a Nord Electro (I also have Nord Electro 6).
BUT - if you have the money, it relieves a lot of things - Montage M. It allows you to edit set lists much easier and more. But improvement is really not worth the money. Only upgrade, if money is not an issue.
@bobjerrehansen5644 - I also own a Motif XF and am seriously considering replacing it with the Montage M. One of the additional reasons - beyond the improved sound and easier editing - is that the Motif's audio interface (i.e the FW16E) uses the now outdated Firewire protocol for connection to a computer. While the FW16E works with my nearly 10 year old MacBook Pro, I have been told that Yamaha's Firewire drivers no longer work with late model Macs. I'm curious if you use the audio interface in the Motif and if you've experienced any issue like this.
@bobjerrehansen5644 only upgrade from the original montage? Is that what you mean? Or from the motif ES...
@@SteveinJersey1234No. I only used it gigging.
Good comparison i believe the es just need to be hook directly to a mixing board and eqed a bit because the sounds are 1 billion percent recycled the Montage has a brighter texture for sure AWM2 is AWM2 Like the sweet flute is called the expressive flute in Cubase Halion.Those samples really held up over time.
Yeah, had them both hooked up the exact same with no extra anything. Wanted to make it as accurate and fair as possible.
@@JuliusDeBerryJr No doubt you did a good job my man.
Thanks !
There is clearly a difference in sonic quality, but the 20 year advancement is in functionality. The difference between my xs7 and my m7 is night and day. Both still good from a playing/sound perspective but functionality in a studio/live performance setting definitely goes to the montage.
Yes definitely
All of those sounds to my ears do sound similar, except for the Full Concert Grand that was played first. Seems like the Montage MX8 was the better of the two. Yes I know that the Motif ES Rack is an old technology (for lack of a better word) so that would obviously be a factor, but still. I will say that if I had to pick though I would say the Montage has the better sounds because they are slightly higher quality. Just goes to show you how much technology has evolved.
Agreed!
Super interesting bk 2 bk here, bearing in mind the two decades between the two boards!! What about my EX5R? …. wonder how that stacks up in fact! Had the now Classic Motif7 bk in 2000, then retro’d bk to this blue beauty, also have MODX6. M8x defo more clarity (I’ve played in Andertons UK pro audio shop), but really >£4k vs. eBay bargain on old ES …. helps crystallise your GAS right? Keep up the great YT demo’s 😎👍🎹💥
Thanks for the great feedback. Ex5 is wild! I have had the keyboard and he module both at one point. The keyboard twice. Lol.
Definitely a BEAST machine!
@@JuliusDeBerryJr 🙏
An interesting video, but I honestly don't see what's the point. It simply shows that newer Yamaha models include most (if not all) the sounds and/or waveforms of the previous generations. This is not and exception of Yamaha, as most brands also do the same, and it's actually a good thing, because you can be reasonably confident that you'll keep most of the sounds when upgrading your equipment.
IMHO, it would be more interesting to focus on what is different between the two models, rather than on what's the same or very similar. For instance, to play the best acoustic piano on the Montage M and compare it to the acoustic piano of the Motif ES, and doing the same with EPs, strings, drums and so on, to really show the evolution.
Thanks for your feedback. But the specific purpose of this video was to showcase very specific sounds that are considered staples in the live church scene. To show musicians 2 things, the majority of their sounds were still here and still sound very similar. Some cases the similarities were subtle and others not so much. It helps them make an informed decision.
Also, there will be more videos. Plenty more. !!!
I do believe all the waveforms are there, but all the presets aren't. Unfortunately.
Doing the comparison from a very best perspective would kind of be subjective because it will be based on what I think is the best in each category from the montage and also from the ES. I guess I can still do it It would be worthwhile it would just be based on my opinion
I used to be all about hardware synths, frankly, up until Spring of this year. In fact, I was one of the ones who didn't want to hear about the superior quality of software to hardware. I bought a Macbook, Omnisphere, Keyscape, and few other plugins and I'm just mad I didn't switch over sooner. For synth sounds, i don't think there is a gap, but pianos, organs, etc? Give me software all day, anyday. My point? These companies, in my opinion, can match the quality of software, but they choose not to. I wish they would, because I'm already tired of hooking up a laptop and scrolling for sounds. It is tedious. The day a hardware manufacturer gives me Keyscape and Omnisphere quality in a hardware synth, my laptop is going up for sale.I don't see that day coming, unless Korg jumps out the window and push the game forward like they did with the Kronos.
The Motif ES Piano definitely sounds warmer and "phatter" out the gate than the montage m8x. What do you think?
The difference is the touch screen and extra sounds etc so yes it is better however if u have a computer with software synths etc and a DAW I would keep my motif!!!
Lol yes of course. We know it's different. But we were comparing the sounds themselves. It's a weird space. Some people just don't help with computers.
@@JuliusDeBerryJr it's all subjective in a sense!!
I keep thinking about upgrading from my ES7 to one of the newer units, but it is so rock-solid and the live performance options - particularly and especially master mode - keep me from selling it. And patches switch instantly! No load time! And unlike the Montage M, which I hear has a weird fan noise and no vent, my ES does have a vent, and no fan noise.
Yes... true but the LIVE SET mode covers you. I too am a great fun of the master mode in motif but the LIVE SET MODE replaced the master mode in montage.
@@lmJoshua I know, but AFAICT it is limited to 16 slots, where the Motif's master mode has like 64.
Turns out I am wrong, there are 16 live sets to choose from, switchable at will. That's pretty awesome. Is there any lag time when switching live sets?
I haven't experienced any problems with fans. Or sounds taking time to load. 💪🏾💪🏾 But maybe I'm just lucky. Lol😆
@@kenflagg not at all its seamless. tap and keep playing.
They both sound good Julius. I love my Kronos's that I play live. I still enjoy my Modx as well. Been thinking a little on this M. I am not giving up the kronos unless Korg comes out with something better. Julius are you super impressed with the M? I know you already had a Montage and Kronos.
I never had the original Montage. Never even really looked at it or considered getting it. At any point.
Yes. Very impressed with it as far as a complete package.
I don't know about you but I find the montage to sound thin/harsh compared to all motifs. Do you agree?
Do you hear that in this video? Interesting perspective. Noone has mentioned it yet either. But it's probably possible. Not sure if use the term harsh. But thin in a digital way could be considered... If you are leaning that way.
Do you mean within my examples or overall?
They are using the same samples. We do know that the Motif library/samples have been ported to Montage/Montage-M, so they should be fairly close. The point is, that the new Montage is not just about upgraded converters and analog output stages, rather it has many capabilities far, far beyond the Motif series. Problem is that almost no one demonstrates the intricate, complex performance touches that this, as well, the original Montage has. This machine goes way beyond any Yamaha digital synth thus far. Also, organization, library, user memory, etc are greatly improved. Why don't you demonstrate some of the complex patches that only Montage/M are capable of? Comparing this to the ES using the same samples is like comparing D-to-A converters playing back raw wave-forms...differences will not be great. The super knob, ribbon, various buttons, sliders, mod wheel... all of these are supposed to be used to show the maximum potential of what is a performance synth. It is not a workstation. Please consider exploring these possibilities and do an honest comparison.
Thanks for the feedback. That's in the pipeline. Lol. Very soon my friend. Lol.
With that said, this video was meant to show something very specific... And it accomplished that. Did you watch/listen to the entire video? Even the introduction? I briefly discussed what was happening and why.
I wouldn't dare compare the technology. 😎
@@JuliusDeBerryJr
I did. In light of my first response, I wondered why you did this other than to prove your point. Yes, I would agreed that the demonstration served that purpose. I just think that I'll wait for your you clip of the "...in the pipeline" for a more useful and interesting review. Best wishes on that project.
the motif classic and es have unique samples. with the xs and xf theres was a new sample set used that was then ported to the montage. this is why the classic and es are still relevant cause the samples are unique and diddnt get ported .while patches has the same names they samples are different . similar to how zencore in roland uses different samples than thier SRX accurate plugins.
Not so surprising here. Same sounds, probably same samples under the hood, (almost) same engine, just a little less compression and a little more resolution, so what, they MUST sound very close. More interesting will be, at least for me, a comparison of an Motif ES with DX, VL and AN boards with the M8x and if the engines are finally integrated again like in the SY99 (AWM2 and FM) or EX5 (AWM2, VL, AN, FDSP) or still seperated as side to side engines that can only (and simply) be stacked in parts. Thank you!
P.S. Still dreaming of an FS1R steroidized EX5(R) with nowadays DSP power. Do you hear me, yamaha?
BTW I have a Kronos ,Maschine, Logic Pro 10 and Komplete 12 ultimate there is no sound I can't make
You are into sound creation?
@@JuliusDeBerryJr production but in an ideal situation in life all I would do is create music and art ha ha
Well, it sounds like Yamaha had it right 20 years ago!
Right ... OR not much since. Lol
Motif XS vs Motif ES:
For me a better sound engine means:
better tone generator chip, better samples (more detailed, less compressed, longer), more simultaneous effects, more simultaneous arpeggios, better DAC
In (almost) any regard of the above mentioned, the XS (tone generator SWP51, 8 elements per voice, 4 simultaneous arpeggios, expanded articulations...) supercedes the ES (tone generator SWP50, 4 elements per voice, 1 arpeggio...).
And a huge improvement in usability on the XS:
Direct performance recording to pattern. All the settings and effects from the performance are automatically copied to the sequencer. That was really annoying to do that by hand on the ES.
Of course, that doesn't mean, that subjectively a particular patch on the ES can't sound better than its counterpart on the XS.
It's for the most part an "accepted fact" that the es sounds better....(The actual tone of the instrument) Them the xs. I know that would be considered an opinion. But that's why I said an accepted fact. Opinions that are extremely consistent across a specific group..🤷🏾♂️.
I'm the gospel community, folks don't really care for the xs overall
@@JuliusDeBerryJr Totally get that. The ES has a warm and full sound right out of the box. The XS probably shines, when you use it for recording.
@followyourpassion8378 how so?
@@JuliusDeBerryJr You mean, how the XS shines when recording (an album)? The voices are sounded differently, they work well in a mix and some voices are more detailed on the XS (more velocity layers, longer samples), so they sound more "realistic", though not necessarily better.
I had ES and XS in various forms (workstation, rack, budget line) and as I recall it, arrangements with acoustic intruments (drums, horns, ac. bass, piano, sax, but also orchestral instruments) sounded more nuanced on XS.
The most important feature on XS for composing, however, was the direct performance recording and having 4 arpeggios on the same time.
But I fully agree, that the ES would sound way better, when accompanying a worship with a layered sound, lets say electric piano and pad.
Also the S700 piano was very good. But I think, that was only on the S90ES.
Sounds recycling + Marketing effort = New product
Differences are too small to name this innovation. Rather product differentiation than product innovation; this is unfortunately what most companies stick to.
I get what you are saying. But sometimes recycling to an extent and adding newer tech to a single product can't be great for consumers. We have the comfort in the familiarity of the product but also something to and innovative to inspire us and continue to push us forward.
I wonder how advanced the new Fantom is over its 20 yr predecessor.
Lol.. man.... As far as how it sounds? Now that would be something to see and hear. Lol
The next oldest thing I have access to is the KORG m3. It came out in 2007....
That would be the Fantom X was 2003 too. I sold my x8 during COVID. The Fantom S was 2003
Based on what Roland said on this site. www.rolandus.com/blog/2014/02/19/roland-synth-chronicle-1973-through-2013/
I could maybe get an xr and do some comparisons. It's showing 2004.
@@JuliusDeBerryJr Bro, PLEASE do it! We love this content! It helps with FOMO and G.A.S.
Love the ES, I had the rack es, ES6 and the S90es…..
I think Yamaha will use the Montage M Hardware to be a seria number for her Yamaha Montage M VST, and others Synth's Brand's will do the same. Thats because a very good audio interface its too expessive to buit in a workstation keyboard and the audio interface buit in today dont deliver the all the real sound. Thats my opnion.
Not sure I follow what you are saying in the bottom half of your comment.
@@JuliusDeBerryJr I think that all hardware synth will start create 2 versions of they keyboards. one hardware end other will be vst but, to get access the vst you must buy the hardware synth to use the hardware as were its serial number for the vst that no one could just download and use on the internet.
But what would happen after you sell the keyboard or no longer own it? Could you still access the software? And would the next owner be able to use that same serial number to register?
@@JuliusDeBerryJr Its just an opinion . I think it would work not with a serial number tha you put on a software but the hardware its self had an internal code that make the vst work. But really can be totaly wrong. Whan you sell it the code goes to new owner.
But they've stated that you don't have to have the hardware connected in order to use the software (at least I believe that's been reported).
And today it's free for all montage m owners implies that I would be available for non hardware owners as well. It just won't be free.
More reverb on the Montage M sounds.
Both sound terrible, what happened to the audio ?
What do you mean? What's wrong with the audio?
A MONTAGE M LE FALTA MAS UNA PANTALLA.....
Особой разницы в звуке НЕТ! У меня motif ES и я счастлив!!!
Montage has too many effects on. Motif is better. that's sad
Motif has effects on too
@@JuliusDeBerryJr what I meant is that the Montage sounds like its drowning in reverb. the stock sound is what I'm talking about.
@xenobiigaming I always turn reverb off in most keyboards when I'm using them unless it calls for it. Most keyboards have too much been in the stock settings.