One of the strongest types of moves in Guilty Gear
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- čas přidán 19. 12. 2021
- #lordknight #GuiltyGearStrive #GuiltyGear
Guilty Gear characters are strong all around, but there is a certain type of attack that strikes fear into everyone's hearts.
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Elphelt is a trained sniper, so obviously she has a move where she launches herself into your face.
taking tips from noel.
As soon as I saw the thumbnail I was like "ah Nago Beyblade equals Elphelt Bridal Express"
I'm surprised that you didn't mention that when the opponent blocks Nago's spin late in its active frames due to spacing, it becomes +2.
i think i heard somewhere you couldn't combo off it at that range
@@waifu27 You definitely get a combo on counter hit, and you can probably get OTG 2S into Fukyo oki normally
@@nyanlathotep9863 ah, that's true
It is +2, but being +2 at a range like that doesn't have any real implications. He can't grab you, he can 2S, but that's 12f startup so it would lose/trade to most 2D's regardless if it was 0 on block like normal. If he gets normal hit it's an otg 6H, and if he gets counterhit it's a full combo obviously, but +2 on block doesn't matter there either. The move is incredibly strong, but not because of that, if they made it 0 or even -10 at that range, it would mean absolutely nothing for him.
The implied space bit is exactly how I feel fighting Nago as Millia. I still main Nago but I'm working on Millia and fighting him requires serious reactive play because of how much he controls the neutral game, especially with something as scary as beyblade.
I like to think LK did this entire segment just so he had a reason to attack elphelt
Moves like this definitely exist in Street Fighter V, but they usually come with the caveat of costing some kind of resource. The saltier side of the community calls them “Neutral skips,” things like Urien’s ex tackle (esp. if cancelled into aegis reflector, start praying), Balrog’s ex straight, Bison’s ex scissor kick. You could maybe make an argument for things like Akuma’s air fireballs, Kage’s VT1, bazooka knee, sumo headbutt, Dan kicks, etc.
Difference between this and those is this gives you full combo on CH
Sumo Headbutt is not really in the same category because it has big pushback on block and it knocks back really far on hit. He does control a lot of implied space with it, but he doesn't get to start his offense by hitting you with it, unless you're already cornered.
I don’t play those characters, but I believe counterhit ex straight can confirm into s.lk target combo, and Urien can convert with aegis activation. I know ex scissors is a hard knockdown. They all cost resources to get big returns from, sure, but so do beyblade and hunt, and definitely Bardock lariat. I might be wrong, and doing a ch confirm is definitely easier in Strive than in sfv.
They’re pretty different games, but I think the same principle applies. A massive, priority, advancing move, and unless it whiffs entirely (like if your opponent neutral jumps it), it is putting you in a winning position, or at the very very least, a safe position.
Oh and Cody’s EX Zonk, probably another good example
@@jordanday7670 Cody’s Ex zonk is a perfect example. Cody establish a space that’s comfortable enough for him to play the fireball game and poke freely while you’re extremely hesitant on pressing a button to not get get hit by an EX zonk. Plus on block, fast, travels across the screen, LETHAL VTA, and costs one meter.
Edit: Not to mention the extremely payout he gets out of it on hit. The move is great!
Azrael 236A as well, it's at least +1 (unless instant-blocked) so it's awkward to deal with in neutral and occasionally as a pressure reset as well.
I remember learning that move was plus and being like "lol wtf"
I wonder if that's what made them think of Nago's design in the first place. A busted character that can't abuse his busted status too much without being punished for it. Now it's a question of finding the right slider to busted-to-hol'up ratio, lol
I mean, Sin was already that in Xrd, so they just made another character like that in strive
@@NeoBoneGirl Yeah but it's an considerable evolution. The combo routes to recover that gauge are much more complex than "input X special at combo end" and Sin's only punishment for running out is losing access to those moves. Maybe they did started from Sin's mold but the entire balancing philosophy of Strive push the limits of how it works.
@@Raxyz_0 Sin simply wouldn’t work in Xrd because as he is now, he is just better Nago, and would be fat and away the best character in the game, so they made Nago
@@NeoBoneGirl That was my point basically, I guess I worded it weird though.
I main Nago and I do thibk they could tone down the moves a little bit. If it was like May's dolphin where you could stuff it out with 6p, then I think more Nago's would be more careful.
In regards to Street Fighter (At least SF5), moves like these are generally unsafe or at least minus on block unless they come with a set of very specific caveats: Either they are incredibly slow starting up, they cost meter, they require some kind of install to be safe or plus, or they require v-trigger activation to be plus. Maybe I'm missing one or two moves though, the closest thing I can think of is Laura's medium elbow.
In that regard though, EX lariat moves are among some of the most degenerate in the game. And of course Balrog's basically entire character in SFV is lariats. Ex chariot tackle V-trigger cancel, time to guess bitch
@@bmac1415 And that wouldn't be 10% as bad if the V-Trigger they were cancelling with wasn't Aegis.
EX lunge punch
Bison scissor kick? Pre sf5
@@Pandaman64 Probably, yeah. I was about as casual as you could get before SF5 when it comes to fighting games, and things like frame data weren't quite as easy to get ahold of back then. I know it's safe but minus in SF5.
Dispensing supreme knowledge with the Balamb Garden music in the background, bless you, LK. 🙏
I think the best example for street fighter would be dive kicks. If properly spaced they are plus and give free offense and they are hard to deal with because most dive kick characters in street fighter can do them super low to the ground so you can't react to it with an anti air, and if you spend too much time looking for the dive kick you can get dashed on.
Nah, not the same concept. Moves like what LK describes are generally used in the neutral game, and it’s the distance that these moves can travel in an instant that creates “implied space” when your playing neutral against characters with these moves.
Dive kicks imply that you have already closed the distance between you and your opponent and your offense has started, not neutral.
The fact Elphelt is so ingrained in the GG community that they recognized her silhouette is impressive
I'm eating fried chicken and baked chicken at the same time while watching this.
you gonna share?
The prime Street Fighter Example is AE Yun EX Lunge Punch and in SFV when Urien's EX Tackle was +2
LK's my spirit animal.
When it comes to Street Fighter this move exists as a slide. Usually they are low to the ground and go under mids and fireballs making it hard to play footsies in that range cause you need to be ready to block low at any time especially if the move knocks down like Blanka's.
In SF I guess the equivalent would be something like Balrog Dash Punches or any similar move that puts you in their face from far away with relatively low risk
Our good pal Larry
I was checking Rev 2 and... You're telling me everyone has different wakeup timings depending if it's face up or face down? How am I supposed to time my meaty?
welcome to guilty gear
Use shit that’s mad active, and get used to the timing. Face up and face down don’t matter for most of the cast since they’re mostly minor differences, but way more of the cast has stuff like Ky CSE, and there’s no such thing as a “soft knockdown” so setting up meaty projectiles is far easier
You don't
Every degenerate had lingering oki shit that covered it. It's why Strive cut down on the oki
@@lawfulstorm7469 I mean, you certainly can. People made a lot bigger deal about the different KD times than it mattered. Usually it was only important for the oki based characters to know what setup is the best to use when
...and it crushes lows like Ky 2S
The common name for moves like this is a "burst option". Big move with large unreactable range.
That's not the common name for these kinds of moves? Is this a smash thing?
@@Kuon That's definitely something I've seen and used a lot myself when I played smash competitively. In the FGC I've seen some people use "neutral skip" instead.
@@Kuon idk why it isn't. It's like, the perfect term.
Great. Now image of Nago in wedding dress is stuck in my head.
street fighter has those. Urien EX tackle used to be + OB (lol) and now it's still safe and can be VT cancelled. Birdie has an EX into activation that's just instant get in while plus. And every time characters have those options, people despise them for being 'anti neutral'. Sakura has EX tatsu into VT. So yes, those type of moves are also very powerful in street fighter
These aren’t bad examples but are under the v trigger condition besides Urien. Balrog ex straight and Cody’s Ex Zonk are really good examples of this. Also bisons ex scissor kick and maybe Akuma’s ex demon flip.
That sakura buff is ridiculous too, faster and vtc too. To think in sf4 she had an even better ex that was +OB and was projectile invu…
I think one of the most important things you missed is that fundamentally most moves have push back or are not forward advancing moves. Having a forward advancing move where even just Normals are pretty plus is a huge deal alone coming from NRS fighting games. Spacing out forward advancing moves to whiff is also 10x harder than spacing out a normal thats stationary
This is just like falcon kick on ult wifi
Aaaany way, so I started hell sweeping
What is that fantastic music playing in the beginning of the video?
Balamb Gardens theme from Final Fantasy 8
I ignored No Neutral November, because I've been playing No Neutral Nagoriyuki from the beginning
He’s big he needs it
@lordKnight hakumen has this move to 623A~A but mid and head invul instead
Wow another Elphelt video, she looks like she’s impossible to beat. I’m gonna buy Rev 2 and try to learn all I can about her for when it hopefully gets rollback. Thanks LK you inspired me!
u'r gonna make us cry 😥
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but xrd rollback is highly unlikely. Apparently the engine they used for it does not play nice with trying to implement rollback
MK11 is the same way, almost every character has a move like this. Most are unsafe but have a high reward or a gimmick to them so it isn’t always a clear punish if blocked
@LK so do we count stundipper? (It is ok to tell me; Kizzie isn't watching)
Stun dipper(without rc) s -10 and lower reward on hit than beyblade
With an rc stun dipper is super duper good
@@yonatanharris1539 does this change if they have the electric debuff?
@@tastyscavenger yeah if shock state is active it's -10. Normally it's -15
4:18 :)
It's in GRANblue also.
Isn't Margaret's 2A/5B similar?
hotashi sweatin rn
What does “mids dispenser” mean?
they dispense mids (as opposed to lows or overheads)
A character that lacks a good high low kit but has a lot of mid blocked moves that apply very good pressure, usually for strike throw mixups.
These kinds of characters run rampant in mk, if you don’t have a full screen movement option or some sort of teleport then you’re playing the game wrong there
Kliff died so Elphelt could have it
Rate Elphelt's cuteness from 1 to 10
I was gonna get tight if LK didn’t mention Sin Elk Hunt when talking about Nago Beyblade, because it’s actually the same move. Hell, LK got it wrong, but Elk Hunt is also 0 on block, just like Nago. This is like 90% of the reason why I think Sin is never getting in as the same kind of character, because Nago is literally him with the exact same gimmick
Ahh that's my fault, I looked at old notes during this. 😭
@ProTheGrammer Nah it wasn't disjointed but it went mad fucking far, and because Sin is basically better Nago, he had a lot more options of when and when to not use it, and it made his conversions mad good too
@@LordKnightfgc Yeah I don't blame you lol, there's no doubt that the move was way more infamous back in the Rev1/Sign days of it being +1 (Give it back ArcSys he needs it)
So Sin is really similar to Nagoriyuki in terms of how he’s played or do they even have an extremely similar move set. Or is in the blood and hunger gauge they have that makes them similar (besides the advancing crazy active great OB move)?
@@null-wq5cp They don’t exactly have similar moves but the gameplan of “Mids dispenser with crazy damage and good pressure because of special cancels” is really similar, though Sin also gets to run, has one of the best 6Ps in the game, and can control space with huge buttons and specials while still having full calories, unlike Nago who chooses between huge buttons and obscene specials
I feel like Nago's beyblade is more threatening than Sin elk hunt or Elphelt's bridal express because of strive's "nerfed" air mobility but that might just be me
(leaving aside the massive disjointed hitbox of course)
BALAMB GARDEN IS BACK FOR CHRISTMAS TIME!!!
the only complaint I have about the move is if they buffed his clone move that's plus on block, doesn't disappear once summoned, and you can dash in behind then I honestly feel they should nerf the recovery of the move just by a smidge since nago has a 5 frame light. that basically means only 3 characters in the game can beat this move cleanly on block and even then he can still cancel into his 2 slashes for a huge counter hit when the move it's self gives a huge counter hit now I'm not saying that if you block this move your instantly screwed cause these moves still require open blood gage but this dude needs to at least be -1 after popping this move out. like at least make the nago player try to space it correctly because like the Elfelt move you mentioned in this video he's plus on block if this move is spaced so he can just do it again and I know LK doesn't make the game so complaining to him doesn't change anything but if you're really gonna argue that your character needs buffs in comparison to a character that's definitely leaning on the side of degenerate as hell because we're only discussing one move among all the other great tools and advantages he has then your character is perfectly fine and doesn't need changes cause honestly if you ask me if sol got a slight health nerf and nago had this move nerfed a LITTLE BIT then this is a perfectly balanced game and there is no reason to give out more buffs at this stage of the game
Plenty of characters do need buffs. Goldlewis still has no use for 5p or 6H other than telegraphing to your opponent that you whiffed an input, Chipp's shuriken has no real practical use, Millia's S disk is a high risk low reward, lust shaker barely does any chip for a move intending to punish FD, Jack O needs... something, Pot needs FDB and Gigantor rules clarified more, etc.
It does too much for the other options/kit he has. Being an effective anti air for instance is one of several good examples of too much sauce.
Zaremeyuki is actually minus if Nagoriyuki activates it and then cancels into Fukyo from close range. The plus frames of the projectile will be long over with and you can throw punish them.
If they activate from too far then no follow-ups that they have will connect and they will spent all of that blood for basically no reward. Severely limiting the rest of their options for a while. Most of the time you only really use this combination of moves if the range is really precise, otherwise beyblade us usually better
@@AzazelTheMisanthrope I know he can’t use this move too close because Fukyo recovery but that’s not what is intended for in the first place cause if you could do it at a close range It would literally be a better chipp clone and broken I’m not saying that was a bad buff for him he actually needed it for his match ups where he struggles to get in and it’s balanced since you can’t do it completely full screen cause if you could do full screen clone into fukyo then that would be brain dead broken but you can still jail into 5k at the right range so you’re still definitely plus in this situation and can choose plenty of other options like 2S fS if you space correctly and that’s cool I’m not saying it’s over tuned or anything but for spin to literally be incontestable by 90 percent of the cast when it’s completely unnecessary for nago to be neutral here since he can cancel into shizuriyuki and decimate a masher so you’re already incentivized to just keep blocking if you didn’t already FD it so he can still get a tick throw if he wants even if he was -1 so all I’m saying is just make it minus 1 that’s it then he’s balanced but right now that spin is too degenerate to really let slide and I mainly play Gio and chipp 2 of the 3 characters that cleanly beat this so really I’m not a player that has too much trouble with this move within my own experiences with the game but I think it’s stupid that in a nago mirror the nago that spins first essentially will clash with the other nago if they press the same button after block stun when I feel shouldn’t the nago that blocked get the hit if the both mash 5p at the same time like the move really just doesn’t make sense and there a still plenty of characters with 6-7 frame mash options that’ll be in the same place if they nerfed it like I’m describing they should just a baby nerf really
@@HellecticMojo with Goldlewis did you mean 6P or did you intensionally mean 5P cause he can definitely use 5P as a anti-air and combo behemoth typhoon after it and 6P was already buffed. Chipp’s shuriken could get a minor buff but I feel like you really don’t even want a move like that getting too good on chipp cause if you know how to use it already you know that if you hit you opponent with it while your descending you going to get to run in on them for free But I’m not gonna say this is something you can do on anybody every round but I don’t think it needs to be that good considering if it was it would just help chipp get in easier and what’s worse then a chipp in your face plus to me it’s a good round ending move on opponents With decently low health already so it could be ignored and no actual chipp player will complain. I still can’t understand millia players wanting S disk to be buffed so bad like you’re saying it’s high risk low reward how exactly is it high risk if you can’t even get a true punish in most cases since it’ll be too spaced if you do it in a block string then it’s not high risk dude cause what’re you risking doing s disk? Anji’s 50/50 high low is high risk since both options are highly punishable that’s a high risk move but s disk is fast, pushes the opponent towards the corner on hit anyways, low crushes, and you can still PRC it and keep your turn or bulldoze in on someone because it’s quicker then gun flame and ky’s projectiles so if your really get a full combo off counter hit and get another setup for mixup cause why wouldn’t you that shit would be stupid like I literally can’t describe it another way it if I tried like sure you can punish it if she does it point blank but any further then that and it’s not punishable you’ll lose a turn sure but that’s okay. If they do buff it she should only get a good enough knockdown to land a close slash afterwards anything more then that is just dumb then why play any other character if you can just play millia have all the mix, damage, maneuverability, safety, and counter hit potential at that point. You don’t even know what Jack o needs so I don’t even understand why you bothered mentioning her she’s already been buffed and is a very good character honestly you saying that makes it hard to take you seriously cause you literally are saying buff Jack O for no reason like this buff everything mentality in the FGC is just annoying like why can’t people actually try to get good with the Game mechanics or adapt their play style to help deal with their Character weaknesses like nobody in real life is just a perfect fighter or athlete so why does everybody just want every character to be a Demi god like even Floyd Mayweather would get annihilated in ufc or by any heavyweight champion but he’s the greatest lightweight boxer of all time no argument cause he fights people who can’t really exploit his weaknesses not cause they’re not skilled enough but because they’re not necessarily strong enough to break his defense but he has weaknesses in reality cause a prime Mike Tyson would probably kill him from strength alone cause he’s way bigger they Floyd so a match like this would never happen IRL Floyd is still arguably the greatest pound for pound boxer and definitely better then Mike Tyson career wise and I’m a Floyd fan so what I’m basically trying to say is nobody is perfect so why should every move on every character be tuned to perfection like that’s just goofy bro so essentially there’s still nothing to buff in my eyes overall bug fixes and stuff like that are definitely needed still of course happy chaos is still kinda wonky pot is definitely kinda wonky but nah I can’t see any real buffs being necessary right now
The wave of nostalgia with the ff8 music 🥲
Just curious as to why the games that LK plays are always in Japanese not English.. Does he speak Japanese?
Sameee
Maybe he's trying to learn the language?
So you're telling me that having full screen mids is good? 🤨
is it not?
alternate title:
LK attempts 'Try Not to Say CHEAP Challenge'
this video left me a lot of questions 😅
-- what makes these moves 'one of the strongest'?
-- how are we defining these moves?
-- what context prompted this video?
(what does 'one of the strongest types of moves' even mean❓)
They’re strong because their return is huge compared to the risks.
Nago’s beyblade lets him control lots of space, is fast, and lets him start his offense on block or on hit.
He said in the video that these moves are the strongest because of their combination of being fast, safe/plus on block, and covering a lot of space
@@taejoonkim5122 😯 Ah, you answered 'why are they strong?',
but I asked "what makes them 'one of the strongest'?" ☝️
@@ericaisaac64 this kind of interpretation is *exactly* why felt compelled to ask these questions 😲🧠
@@ericaisaac64 just so you know (just trying to b clear 😅)
1.I'm confident neither LK nor I think these are the *strongest* kinds of moves
Strength is deceptive. ☝️
2. 🤔 the video's title n framing imply an assertion that it doesn't really mean to assert.
The subject ain't 'these are the strongest type of move' but 'this kind of move is strong across games'
just saying 😅, no one's discussing why they're strongest
That move is not zero on block, nothing to i to reversal afterwards works against it, just end up up counter hit
...what?
elk hunt is 0 on block, not plus
Isn't stun dipper a this type of move also
Oh well stun dipper is punishable on block tho
Stun dipper is punishable on hit lol
Stun dipper also only connects in a very specific range even if it does hit and only gets combos with rc
@@riordanbrown9557 Nagos a bit overtuned right now ur basically playing his game waiting for his blood rage to fill before u can even think to approach him.
i think this title is misleading and people may believe these are *actually* the best kinds of moves in fighting games 😬
(the 'strongest' moves are much more nuanced)
. . .
i was just discussing this under one of my other comments, and i confirmed that people were misled.