How to Install Water Methanol Injection and Tune Your Engine For It
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- Water Injection system used in the video: www.snowperformance.eu/en/wat...
How Water Methanol (or Ethanol) injection works: • I Inject Water Into My...
This video is a detailed step-by-step tutorial on how to install, configure and tune your engine for a water methanol injection kit.
This video covers the following:
Hardware install,
Wiring,
Nozzle position selection,
Nozzle sizing,
ECU tuning,
I will be installing the Snow performance Stage 2 kit but almost everything you will see in this video applies to other kits from other manufacturers as well as DIY kits.
The first thing we will install is the tank or reservoir. You can install this anywhere but I recommend that you install it somewhere far away from heat as well as road debris. Usually, the car’s trunk works well for this. To install the tank you just need find or provide four studs or bolt holes and bolt it down. I used two existing holes in my trunk and made another small bracket for the remaining two mounting points.
Before you install the tank make sure to install the outlet nozzle which will feed water to the pump. All threads in this kit are self-sealing NPT threads so they don’t really need any sort of sealant but I prefer to install them with a bit of sealant. The Snow Performance kit comes with the correct sealant for this application.
Something else this kit has is a fluid level warning sensor that tells you when the tank is about to run dry. This is optional and you don’t have to install it but I think it’s a nice useful feature. The fluid level sensor is connected to a little warning light that you install in the interior of your vehicle. The light flashes red when the water level is low.
Next, it’s time to install the pump. The pump can be installed both in a horizontal or vertical position but it must be installed close to the tank and the inlet nozzle of the pump must be below the level of the outlet nozzle of the tank so that the water drains easily into the pump without the pump having to suck the water up. Both the tank and the pump should be installed below the level of the intake manifold of the engine where the water-methanol mix will be injected.
If you’re running a turbo or a centrifugal supercharger, then you can not install the nozzle into the turbo intake because the high-speed water and methanol droplets can erode the leading edges of your compressor wheel. If you’re running a screw type or roots supercharger then you should install the nozzle before the supercharger. This is the ideal nozzle location for such applications.
This means that in turbocharged, intercooled applications such as mine, the nozzle should be installed after the intercooler but before the throttle body.
Once everything is installed we can proceed with the tuning. The first step with the tuning is to set your injection timing. This is set on the little display and it is absolutely detrimental to the performance of your system. There are only two things you can set, the start time of the injection and the end time of the injection. The rule of thumb is to set the injection start time at about 40% of your maximum boost pressure. So if you’re running 1 bar or 14.5 psi of boost then you will set injection start time at 0.4 bar and end time at 1 bar.
In general, if you choose an overly large nozzle or too early of an injection timing you will notice a power loss because of water injection. The overly large amount of water mist coming in too soon negatively impacts the combustion flame front and kills power. If you experience a power loss or measure it on a dyno after installing the water-methanol system then you can start by setting the injection timing later. If that doesn’t help you will likely have to go to a smaller nozzle. Alternatively, you can increase your boost pressure and ignition timing even further because the power loss tells you that there is now ample space to safely add more boost and timing.
Once you’re done with boost pressure you can play with the timing. This is my ignition timing map and for example, you can see that at peak boost I’m running relatively conservative timing. This is adequate timing without water-methanol injection but it’s actually conservative with water-methanol injection. Increasing timing by a few degrees here can easily gain another 10, 20 or likely even more horsepower.
A special thank you to my patrons:
Daniel
Pepe
Brian Alvarez
Peter Della Flora
Dave Westwood
Joe C
Zwoa Meda Beda
Toma Marini
Cole Philips
00:00 Table of Contents
00:53 Hardware Install
04:20 Wiring and Pump Priming
05:40 Nozzle Location
08:09 Nozzle Sizing
08:59 Injection Timing
11:36 ECU Tuning
14:26 Water Injection Causes Rust?
#d4a #boostschool - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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Snow Performance kit: www.snowperformance.eu/en/water-injection/boost-cooler-stage-2
Working concept video: czcams.com/video/z7CuQNvk6rg/video.htmlsi=c5yyYvTSVegYXcZs
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Fantastic video!
A small correction - at 9:09 you said 'detrimental' but it seems you meant to say 'essential'.
Especially as a non native English speaker, your explanations are incredibly clear and your style and editing is exceptional 👍
Can I use Tonic Water ? Ha
for those worried about water corrosion, just remember one of the main byproducts of combustion IS water so engines are completely used to processing it.
I don't know where people get the idea it'll rust the engine. Like he mentioned in the video, the water/meth solution actually "steam cleans" the engine internals.
Yeah, buddy. This stuff works. I put a meth kit on a couple of Nissan s back in the day. Everyone thought i was crazy, but if you know, you know.
Meth kit? You made your car a junkie
Hope it was an altima
@@okok-oc4ko Sentra and a 240
@@bastadimasta *tweaker
You understand combustion technology and a lot of "car guys" don't. "You'll blow up your motor putting that on it!" Just keep doing what you know is going to improve performance because so few people really know how it works and how to use that knowledge to get real power gains. 👌💯
Nothings better than Sunday lunch with a new video from you
5:40 AM here.
@@bradyelich2745 good for you, i guess
@bradyelich2745 Carpe diem
CZcams keeps unsubscribing me, it's annoying.
It’s very important to run a fail safe because it detects if water isn’t flowing ( clogged injector, empty tank etc), and prevent additional boost/timing
I'd imagine ECU would instantly detect knocking and tune it down no ?
@@xani666 aftermarket maybe, factory dodge will retard a little timing… boost depends on how that’s controlled
That fitting in the silicone coupler will pop out eventually! I installed mine the same way, except my nozzle holder was plastic not metal, and it took about a year of daily driving but eventually I had to figure out how to get to stop popping out. You can find throttle body spacers that have a provision for a methanol nozzle BTW. I also run about 2 bar of boost and target .85. I've had mine for probably about 3 years now and my engine hasn't rusted. Lol
I wish i had those kind of roads where i live.
Looks so calm and free roaming around on those roads. And fun ofcourse.
Looks fun but also dangerous to be driving too enthusiastically as the road are small and it's hard to see oncoming cars. Would be nice to cruise around though.
@@aden3113 believe it or not but more hilly countries often have such roads as main roads, and as long as you stay in your file you are good. no problem cruising 70~80km/h comfortably, and still have less crashes statistically speaking to for example america with lots of open straight roads where drivers may get bored and dont pay attention as much resulting in more carnage
@@Stale_Mahoney you can visit the area around the Nürburgring in Germany, there is a particularly nice stretch of countryside one-way-no-Speed-Limit-toll-road, and you can cruise a tad quicker there too.
I'm downloading this when I eventually get to build my dream car in the future.
And also, as many others have said before: your roads and scenery does look fantastic. Would love to bring a driver's car down there all the way from Sweden some day.
I've been using water/denatured alcohol injection on my turbo 1hz diesel for years and it works. More power and lower egt's
I installed water methanol on my car a couple years back. I used the snow performance 2.5 and integrated the 52mm gauge in the car. Highly recommend that kit. Just more wiring but guage doubles as psi read out. Brought my temps down from roughly 35c to 0-3c on logs and kept my valves clean. If you're running 51/49 menthol you honestly don't need to upgrade your intercooler. If you do this on your daily driver please save your self the hassle and just upgrade to the biggest tank that you can fit. The tank in this video will last 10 min of wot pulls. If you don't wanna deal with methanol go for port injection you can add more power and keep the valves clean. Best part only add gas.
Water/Meth is hard on wideband 02 sensors.
That being said it works great, dropped my temps by almost 100F.
I was so excited about this video, thank you so much!
The area reminds us of Dual 1971 beautiful scenery ,thanks for your educational program 😀
My Sunday lecture has arrived!😇🤗😱🙏🏽perfect timing(no pun intended)😂
This was excellent, D4A! Could you give us some compare/contrast information on water ethanol injection in NA engines vs. forced induction? Advantages, disadvantages, risks, etc?
Hi! Great video, thanks! Small correction though regarding AFRs. You have mentioned that because methanol has a lower stoichiometric ratio you should lower your target AFR in ECU. I believe that's not how it works because O2 sensor doesn't actually measure the mass of fuel, it measures only oxygen (that's why it's call an oxygen sensor) and outputs lambda of which the stoichiometric ratio is 1 regardless the type of fuel. It is then displayed as AFR for gasoline in ECU for convenience/familiarity. So even if you go, for example, full methanol instead of gas, your gasoline AFR that O2 sensor displays stoichiometric value would still be 14.7:1, to see real methanol AFR in that case you'd just need to setup your gauge to display methanol AFR, but the lambda and the mass of methanol would be the same.
Careful bud, he doesn’t like being corrected, he’s gotten pissy before about something and when I tried to link him to a fortnine video with onscreen proof and full explanations, he got angry and basically demanded I explain to him in my own words why he was wrong😂
YES !
@@merkel2750 😅 well I did my best being polite and supportive because I like his content, so hopefully it goes well
That's not what he said - he mentioned that Methanol as a fuel likes to run a bit richer lambda compared to gasoline, which is why you would target a richer AFR.
@@asian4747 Well, I've interpreted his statements differently. My comment is for those who did as well. Maybe I've understood him wrong, but l believe what I wrote aside from mentioning what was in the video is still correct and adds value.
Sitting here wondering if I can throw it onto a motorcycle🤔
Great follow up! Thanks!
Thanks dude for making all that sh!t simple and understandable. Hats off BUDDY! PLS, Keep up the good work.
Stari kanal ti je top topova!
Pozdrav iz Rijeke
Something to keep in mind as I just learned myself while installing a custom multi port W/M system is a flow control solenoid may be required if you have more than one nozzle. My system utilizes 1 nozzle per intake port on a 2.3L Ecoboost, so 4 nozzles total. Even with a check valve, the engine vacuum at idle pulled the fluid through the pump, through 18ft of line, through a filter and check valve into cylinders 3 & 4. So, if you plan to run a similar system, I suggest incorporating a solenoid. I would say it's required for multi port setups. 🙂
Before anything: thanks for such a comprehensive and well documented information, together with the uncommon ability to deliver a good and understandable imagery. My concern, is the engine's age, a 2002 Subaru Forrester. It has 264.5000 miles on it, although well maintained. I fear its loss of power through rings will end up overcoming its gaskets. I perceive its blow-back through the oil cap on its oil intake tube. It certainly comes from somewhere. Will I end up blowing a gasket installing something like this, which I like very much? Thanks again d4a. 👀
Love your vids, i havent seen you make a vid on hybrids or diffrent types of transmisons
Those would great and i want to learn more from you
That’s a bad man! Drilling through a silicone towards his hand! That takes confidence 😮
nice rakija injection for this mr2
thanks again, loving the content!
would love to see a video on using only water, to simply improve fuel economy by running leaner
it is not intended for economy use. It is intended to lower temperatures due to excessive boost when otherwise heat knocking would occur.
@@ThorstenKreutzenberger I know that's what it's meant for, but if it allows you to run leaner, then there could be an opportunity to save on gas too
@@josephgauthier5018 If u want to go "lean" search for "ringverfahren" from Penzig. It uses two types of fuel, one (pilot) fuel which ignites when compressed and normal gasoline injected into the flaming pilot fuel. With this you can go as lean as you want with gasoline. Also Diesel is probably what you are looking for as it goes also lean.
just one minor correction: you definitely COULD see some additional power by simply having the system installed on the car. The system will cool the air, cooler air = denser air. Denser air = more power, as long as you have an ecu that will auto-correct even a small amount of AFR. You most certainly wont get the most out of it this way though.
On a metal to plastic fitting, I would definitely add some sort of thread sealant like you did (even if it's just nylon tape). I know plastics are better than they used to be, but relying on plastic threads is not something I am fond of.
Nice videos keep us entertained
Manifold pressure is only one metric that should be used in determining spray volume: RPM should also be used, and I'm surprised that the Snow Performance ECU doesn't monitor this. Though the system looks okay, the fact that it doesn't use RPM in calculating how much to inject makes is very inefficient. It will inject more than necessary at low RPM's and may not inject enough at high RPM's.
Imt afraid you don't understand how a turbocharged engine works. The engine can't build boost at low rpm. This system never injects anything below 3800 and then it starts with a small quantity and injects progressively
@@d4a My primary vehicle is turbocharged and I have had several others. I also have been using water injection systems before you were even alive. It's you who lacks knowledge on this subject.
If your engine is not building max boast before 3800 rpm, then it's an incredibly poorly designed system. While it might be acceptable for a 1/4 mile track car, that is a ridiculous amount of turbo lag for a street or road course vehicle.
Further, relying upon a single pressure sensor to control a water injection system is a certain recipe for a catastrophic failure. RPM mapping also prevents water from getting injected at low speeds where is could cause a hydro-lock.
I think the Snow Performance kit can be considered as a "starter kit" for water/meth injection. They give you a simple controller, just to get you started. But as mentioned above, a better controller would be ideal. I think some aftermarket ECUs can do that.
@@michaelblacktree That's a kind way to describe it, but, at the price it's being sold for, I would use slightly harsher adjectives.
The first water injection system I used was an Edlbrock Vara-jection and it was far more capable then the Snow, and was a fraction of the price. Aquamist probably makes the best system now. Snow had to have paid this YT'er, because there is no way that he doesn't appreciate how bad their injection system is.
@@EDesigns_FL maybe AEM is better?
Works great on diesels, just be aware of the flow and mixture limits to prevent detonation.
I wish I thought of doing this with my old supercharged Civic EF hatch. I had a Jackson screw type supercharger on a little B16 and it was a HOOT, but after only a couple pulls, or when AIT has warm to hot, it really suffered. There was no good way to add an intercooler, but water injection would have been an amazing solulution. I miss that car.
You didn't talk about what type of fluid you can put in the tank. Speed Sauce, Boost Juice, windshield washer fluid? Or just Distilled water?
This is sick level video
Thank you.
Damn .. this is perfect timing as this is my next upgrade 😅... respect bro ... peace and love bro keep it rad stay safe and build on l8z famz and keep having fun brotha.. ps i truly thank you for all your shared knowledge bro
Awesome channel 👌🏼
Dude you from BiH? I could never tell in the million years since your english is basically perfect and almost no accent (well I could tell you werent born in english speaking country, but I was more thinking something where they speak english daily like denmark / norway / sweden).
Svaka cast!
Nice video, thanks. What about nozzle location for direct injection engine with water to air intercooler integrated into intake manifold?
Interesting to see the Saab water injection nozzle is set before the turbo compressor intake, but there doesn't seem to be an inter-cooler, in the diagram at least.
Love the video. I am installing a Snow Stage 3 kit. it allows for using boost or injector pulse or a combination of both as a reference for the controller. When using injector pulse as a reference point would the same 40% rule apply?
I gained power since my car was running ''hot'' so the timing reference in the cell was worse before WMI, i was able to drop up to 15C at WOT, pretty insane
Could you use it in an NA engine with increased compression ratio, in order to decrease fuel consumption?
I'm also curious if you can achieve the same power numbers with just water instead of 50/50 water ethanol mix, just with a different quantities?
I actually really like this guy and his knowledge is almost impeccable, haha almost, OK so I have to go back to a video as I'm new to the channel so this is on the bigger brakes don't stop cars quicker thing video where of course he is 99.9% correct, the 0.1% of inaccuracy is that he stated pretty well 0% of people will have brake failure, well I've had two and in some regions and under circumstances it is actually quite common. OK wrong video to comment it on, no one will read it, he certainly won't but phew got that off my chest now I can continue to enjoy his content 😂
I read it. There is no such thing as impeccable knowledge. If your vehicle isn't ancient, then your brake system failed not because of its design but because it was not in optimal condition in terms of maintenance or your vehicle was overloaded or something else outside the realm of the design of the system itself.
Awesome video as always, d4a. You’re one of my favorite CZcamsrs. I was wondering, is there any way to run water+methanol injection on an n/a setup and see a substantial increase in power (10-30%)? It seems like you’d be able to have stupid advanced timing on an engine that can handle the pressure, considering there’s extra cooling and no boost. (So small chance of knock.) The reason I ask is for under $1000 and straight forward installation, this would be a great mod before adding a turbo. Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.
Thank you for the kind words. The deal with NA engines is that most of them are not knock limited, and increasing timing further beyond max power usually leads to power loss rather than knock. It's usually only very high compression ratio NA engines that run a significant risk of knock. So, in general, water meth injection will not yield significant power increase with an NA engine. It's a good idea if high octane gas isn't available or in extremely hot climates and to keep the internals clean but it won't allow for big power gains because there's no boost or timing to be increased. The only time when water-methanol can get power on NA is if the engine knocks before optimal ignition timing, but in that case, water meth is just a band-aid rather than the solution to the root cause.
Enjoyable,👏🏿👍
Profesor Chris made similar video with diy "kit"
The check valve prevents the boost from pushing the liquid back. What stops liquid from being injected when not intended is a solenoid.
The check valve has a crack pressure of 7 psi, which means nothing gets injected below that.
@@d4a that makes sense! Thanks for the correction
Thanks for the video but is it better to just get a flex fuel sensor and go e85? Please advise. Thanks
Dude I was literally thinking about this and maybe doing it to my e46 but I haven’t researched anything yet
Most E46 setups use a front-mount intercooler, so intake temps shouldn't be an issue. If you have access to E85, that will help control knock. So you don't really need water/methanol injection.
Can be done to regular old Camry? THAT would make a killer video, too
Great video, makes it easy to understand.One question,can water alcohol injection be used on a normally aspirated engine ?
It can, but there's less benefit
@@d4a Thanks for your reply, I will look into it. Cheers.
Hey there, I've watched your video and a lot of them more and I'm a young tuning fan.
Long story short, I have a question to the cooling system and the problem about having the engine in the rear. Wouldn't it be possible to make a roof scoop that goes right onto the opening for the intercooler to get more air to it. Like on the honda nsx GT? Couldn't that help more with the cooling too?
And sorry for my bad english, im trying my best. Love your videos, learned a lot of tuning just from you :)
I wonder what's the result and limit of using nitrogen liquid or dry ice to cool the air in the intercooler ... perhaps one day you can look into that option 😊
thanks
will the vapor affect the map sensor ?
You’re awesome.
Thank you so much for explaining my question in your video. Can I install this on a non turbocharged stock engine for reducing knocks caused by low quality gas and benefit from removing carbon buildups?
If decent gas isn't available this is a good alternative, you can get the benefits by injecting minimal quantities
@@d4a thanks 🙏
The people worrying about water in the air flow/engine. About 30 years ago, got a little work done on a non turboed, 1.6l corolla engine ( the racing engine but not worked to that amount ), not huge but enough to upset the 6 cylinder commodores ( 3l I think ) and falcon (4.2l ) drivers of that time. Was told there will be more power in wet weather, it was scarily true, that much power on wet roads.
Pretty sure you could control your water meth kit more efficiently if you’d manage it with your AEM ECU. Might I also suggest adding fail safe ?
what about the advantages of this system on na engines?
He did cover this in his previous video and he explicitly mentioned it too...?
Could I install this system on a Vauxhall Astra J VXR without any tuning just to keep the intake and valves clean , will the O2 sensor adjust the fuel trim and will the cat be safe ?
is there a kit for carberators? and how would you set one up?
Thanks d4a
Can i use this setup on a N/A engine that have high compression (too much material removed when resurfacing) so I still can make power and use regular pump gas? The engine knocks so loud under heavy load
Could you upload more of your driving (with no commentary) that you included at the end of the video? Oh and it's not that I don't like your commentary or something, it was very fun and informative video to watch (even though I have no interest in installing water injection lol) but the driving part with just the car sounds was very relaxing for some reason.
Amazing video! ❤ You don't seal any drillholes with rust protection, do you?
No. I like the adrenaline
Thank you for the great video with explanations.
Can't wait to know the final power numbers on you build.
I was really wondering if that system can be used with a fully mechanical diesel, like a build OM 606. Knowing that it can live with just a boost reference without being directly coupled with the ECU gives me confidence that it can be done.
This is an independent system that just needs power, ground and boost reference. You can adapt it to pretty much anything. You can find the dyno in the previous video
@@d4a yes, but You had to stop the dyno at about 5800 RPM, due to hoses falling off with all that boost. I hope you'll get the hoses fixed and re-dyno it, hopefully cracking the 300HP number
Oh you watched the vid? Thank you. I'll try to do some more improvements to the intercooler airflow and then I'll shoot for another dyno
What intercooler are you using, I’m planning a similar build and in need of an intercooler
Pls make a video abaout two stroke diesel engines
Would this be a possibility for a Diesel Engine? Or would this sort of "tuning" only work in a gasoline engine?
I would recommand you an water intercooler.
I already recommend it -the answer was No )
its phantom pain I think )))
Nobody would move to air-air intercooler after water cooled -difference is huge
@@alexgo1034 It would make the moste sence in this car
Although the relative location and distance of the nozzle is important…
How about the angle of discharges impact on cylinder to cylinder distribution?
Can you feel a seat of the pants difference when driving with the injection system?
naturally aspirated engines can get this same setup or do they need a diferent position for the nozzle?
Does any of those mechanisms like methanol/water/nitro work on a diesel?
Is it worth it to do methanol injection along with e85 or is it mainly better just for pump gas
Is it worth to install this kit in order to just keep engine clean? I have ea113 engine with enough power but want to keep it without carbon deposits
I've always been curious to test a WMI kit using water + ethanol, given that I live in Brazil and ethanol is available at every gas station here. Do you have any idea if the benefits would be comparable?
I run a mix of 1L of distilled water with 1.1L of methanol. 2x1000cc nozzles one pre turbo and one post.
Would this also help a diesel engine ?
Why is it ok to inject before the roots supercharger? It seems it would be better to cool the charge AFTER the supercharger has compressed/heated the air than before. I live in the desert driving a Mini R53 and WMI seems like a perfect fit in this environment.
The water/meth mixture helps to fill the gaps between the rotors and the casing, which slightly improves the blower efficiency. Plus it provides some cooling for the blower. That said, with some blowers the coating on the rotors can't handle fuel or other chemicals. So it's a good idea to check on that.
For engines running with Ethanol, water-ethanol injection helps in the same way?
Is there any reason to install a kit like this on a car that only is driven on E85? Or does it just add complexity for very little extra gain?
what would this do for my 7.3 diesel power stroke
How do you know if the same amount of mixture is going into each cylinder, would seem the closest hole would receive more meth than the last hole.
Video posted 9 mins ago, lets gooo
Water\meth\eth inj made the 6stroke & ALL 27+L boosted aircraft engine's since WW1.5 possible! Come on class, ketchup with the rest of us😂
After all of these years of unbelievably informative and well-made video's, you still have people wondering if water rusts when injected!?!?
Sing steam cleaning and then you'll understand water injection kiddos 👍
is there any point installing this on a NA car?
Can you install a water/meth kit on a N/A high compression engine? Or it's exclusive to forced induction?
You can
Is this setup good for a NA car ??
I have a mazda 3rd gen 2.5 turbo and this will be a good way to get more power but i have 3 problems :
1- is it ok to install the nozzle after MAF-intercooler before throttel?
2-my car have a limited tune capability which makes it harder to know the best afr for gdi turbo that will be injected with water meth
3- when to inject safely because my car will have full boost @2000rpm
They recommend the tank and pump be installed below the intake manifold to insure there isn’t any gravity fed leaking of fluid into engine, correct? I have tried calling tech support at Snow performance but they were completely unhelpful. Well, they did say the kit with a solenoid could be installed either way but didn’t explain why. Im assuming the solenoid acts as a valve to stop fluid from free flowing and that’s why it can be installed either way, whereas, the kits without a solenoid have to be installed as shown in your video to avoid leaking. I just ordered mine yesterday so I’m trying to familiarize myself as much as possible with all of this before diving into the install. Thanks
I ordered the stage 2.5 diesel universal kit
Cheers 👍💪✌
Why not install two smaller nozzles to match the right mixture amount?
Could you do a video comparing the sustainability/impact on the environment for the different options when it comes to buy a car ? You already did a very good video showing that both ice and electric vehicles have a similar impact on the environment but could you do a video with a broader spectrum of solutions like hydrogen, retrofitted EV, Used compared to new, hybrid…
I could, but there's no real data to support any of the claims, just educated guesses. Different researches all give different numbers.
Just curious if water injection is only for boosted applications with EFI.
Didn't muscle car guys do it in their carburated V8s? And plane guys in radial engines? There is some description on wikipedia, but not much.
if I'm in an area that gets freezing temperatures, I assume I have to insulate and warm the tank or drain it in the winter? I don't assume I can just pour antifreeze in there. What's your recommendation on that?
The freezing temp of methanol is -97 C, Ethanol is below -100. So if you run 50% of either, you need to be somewhere near the Arctic to have issues.
@@d4a oh, I… didn't consider that. Thanks for the answer!