Family medicine in Ontario is unsustainable, provincial medical association warns
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- čas přidán 16. 02. 2024
- The Ontario Medical Association is raising the alarm over the working conditions of family doctors, warning many could leave their practices if the issue isn't addressed. Dr. Andrew Park, president of the association, says the 'numerous bottlenecks' created by administrative requirements in family medicine are making it 'unattractive' to doctors.
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This whole issue starts with the government...
It absolutely starts with provincial government!
The provincial governments are responsible for the provision of healthcare. It is up to each province how they do it as long as they do not violate the Canada Health Act.
So this issue absolutely starts with the provincial governments!
Well Manitoba annouced yesterday they are hiring 400 doctors, 300 nurses, 200 paramedics. And they have a much smaller population then Ontario.
@@carlyar5281 I agree but provinces can not control large population increases that have taken place in the last few years. Responsible immigration should be fundamental for the federal government, it's not. I do agree with you though... we do not get good value for the amount taxes we pay.
@@colingryms3373 And the federal government has increased health care transfers by more than 53% since 2015. Plus more than $20 BILLION during covid.
@@ITforeveryone Thanks. Why do you think every province is having similar struggles with health care?
Medical Association itself is bureaucratic as well. It took them 17 months to admit an Australian doctor to practise in Ontario.
How long do you think it should take?
What are the differences between Australian health care and Canada?
In fairness, it should take as long as it takes the learn /adjust to the differences..... If that's 1.5 yes, then it takes 15 years.
The medical associations are a bunch of criminals who committed crimes against humanity by taking the licenses away from any physician who dissented with the COVID mandates. Every last one of them belong in jail.
@@lizliz4186I’m an Australian-Canadian dual citizen. Training in australia but want to work in Canada. My training is much longer in Australia. Australia will recognize Canadian training in a streamlined manner. But Canada puts up extra testing, and paperwork. It’ll cost me $30,000 to just apply for practice in Canada. Canada makes it purposely hard. And I am almost a specialist in an addiction medicine and psychiatry, would love to work in my native country but the medical associations push us away.
and not only burocratic
@@lizliz4186please your commenting like Australia is some third world country. There’s no reason why doctors from Europe, Japan or Australia/NZ shouldn’t be streamlined into practicing in Canada. Their education is equal to or probably better than Canadian educated doctors.
As a doctor myself (trained in USA, recently moved to Canada for family reasons), I do not understand why very simple and logical things are not being done in a public funded system like this:
1. Single payer healthcare having no single electronic health record, lots of scattered care resulting in inefficiency and duplication of testing or treatment. Even the VA system in the US has the same health record across the US.
2. Visits to all doctors cannot be less than 10 minutes, and must contain elements of primary care (medical history, health maintenance updates, medications, allergies). It is not good care to see a Walk In patient for a problem without context, especially those who are elderly on multiple medications. Of course, improve the pay per visit as well.
3. Virtual care needs to be heavily emphasized. It can be done with disclaimers to reduce physician liability, but I don't have to see a patient in person to tell them that they have a cold and if symptoms persist beyond 7-10 days then come into the local Walk In to discuss the need for antibiotics. Make it worth it for doctors and patients to see visits virtually.
4. Take the burden off hospitals as well. 80% of volume of surgeries can be done in an ambulatory outpatient setting. The Ontario government is working on this but it should have been done a long time ago.
5. For God's sake, reduce the tax burden for essential workers (doctors, teachers, firefighters, police officers). These are critical to your society and you should never be in a position of shortage. Improve their pay as well. Doctors have to pay 20-30% overhead as well, on top of tax rates that are insane if not incorporated. I cannot even imagine how bad it is for teachers, and they have a harder job than me.
This system needs a complete revamp, it can become one of the best in the world but it needs the proper investment (manpower, time and money). Throwing money at it alone will just lead to another ArriveScam situation of corruption.
Ya ya..so i should stop eating food with tartarzine..?
We let go of our choice when we let others make them for us..
A rather typical example of the "Bait n' Switch" "Bureaucracy that has taken over the most important geography of our Public wishes, by means of 'Hijacking' the 'Authority to both legislate, and to oversee the Health System, with absolutely NO background in medicine or triages..
"Duplication,.. is the Worst of inefficiencies.."
Can you comment on pressures from insurance companies and their involvement in guiding your patients care? If patients have blue cross coverage does blue cross essentially direct patient care through you?
But i thought our universal health care was awesome and the envy of the World.
Can you explain why the Ontario medical association has made it this way?
I’m a senior living in a major city in Southern Ontario. I’ve been without a family doctor for over ten years.
I just can’t find a doctor that is taking new patients.
It’s shameful what’s happened to our healthcare!
I wouldn't say it shameful as much as it's pare for the course.
The government doesn't want to question the waste in the system. Especially on the administration side. So we have less money chasing fewer goods, where in other countries, not just the states, they have more money chasing fewer goods.
I'm 32, but I haven't had one since high school... most aren't taking new clients
You can have your name ona list in ontario for a dr. Took three yrs i finally got one
@@ladybugHuggs I just pay to see someone cause it costs me less than using our garbage system 🤣
It’s called socialism. IE look at Argentina, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea,……
I haven’t had a family doctor in five years. Can’t find one. This is disgusting. I pay so much money in taxes and I can’t even go to a doctor.
I have fired 2 family doctors for incompetence in 5 years, and now I refuse to have one
They really can’t do much , I actually prefer a nurse practitioner since I am a health care professional myself and I do know how to take care of myself.
@@LinhLe-cc9of I am very happy with my concierge NP. She was the only person in ontario to diagnose my endometritis. The other person was Dr. Puthoff, a very specialized surgeon in the US
Same here.
Did you vote for Trudeau?
Doctors should make more money? Nurses, teachers, police officers, judges, child care givers, etc. The problem is that governments give the much needed money to their friends through almost fraudulent contracts. Then, they say they don’t have enough money.
No the problem our money is garbage
All of those professions should make more money, but yes, family docs are arguably working harder than other physicians in specialties that pay double (and without the requirement that they run a practice/business with 40% overhead costs on top of 50% taxation!). The backbone of our healthcare system is family docs, and we didn’t do the amount of schooling we did and enter hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt just to be told we should accept bottom-of-the-barrel pay compared to peers who went through the same schooling we did. Most of us go into it because it’s noble and morally fulfilling, but family med just isn’t giving anyone that gratification anymore. Patients are complex and expect a great deal from family docs, so pay us as such.
Up to 20 hours per week of unpaid work in admin work is plain wrong and WILL drive physicians from the field. Pay us for the work we do. The current model from our government is a recipe for disaster.
Police officers make too much money.
FYI, rant not directed at you - I’m a FM resident and although I love this work, I repeatedly hear that I should’ve gone into something more cushy. Unfortunately I love growing with patients and preventing medical issues but as a system, we are failing medical doctors. I won’t be able to start a family with >200k in debt (and rising due to the prime rate) even though I’ll be 30 when I’m done and I would’ve wanted to start my family. Instead, I’ll be making what a well-established tradesman makes for extremely intellectually and mentally taxing work while running my business. I want to work in this field, but I am worried that staying in Ontario would hurt me in the long-term unless drastic changes take place. Look at BC! They’re creating a new model that pays us for the time we spend running our business and admin tasks, and guarantees income if we continue to work full time doing traditional family medicine. I’m not the only one thinking of moving to beautiful BC to feel valued as a physician.
@@akinody And do you know the story of Dr Crystal Luchkiw? Whose medical licence was suspended by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario?
She ran an office in Barrie for decades and had well over 1,000 patients with roughly 20% in palliative care.
When her licence was suspended for providing vaccine exemptions, every prescription she had written was instantly nullified.
This isn't just an Ontario problem. Ontario is simply the most recent province to notice.
You mean Ontario is the most recent province to see that how they manage the health care system isn't working!
Of course in Ontario keeping nurses to a 1% raise for three years - that drove nurses out of public hospitals into either retirement or private clinics. And in Ontario, Ford secretly cut 9 different tests from what Ohip covers. Ford of course won't talk about the 53% in increases of health care transfers he got from the feds. www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/federal-transfers/major-federal-transfers.html
Most grads get that their education here and then bounce to the USA where the pay is good unlike what we have in Canada
The tuition in Canada is subsidized. Go pay the tuition in the USA. These guys want it all, but provide little in return to the country that helped educate them. Spare me the snowflake outrage!
@@petert1692 Canada in a nutshell. Take a huge population, 10s of millions, the best and brightest leave.. the goofs stay. Rinse and repeat and look what its become.
I don't blame them.
Rinse and repeat a thousand times!! Exactly@@CommoditySC
I’ve been taking an adult ADHD medicine for 10 years. I have to get my prescription renewed each time I get a refill. I understand it’s a controlled substance, but at some point it’s ridiculous to ask a 40 year old mom with no record to need to do this, and super wasteful of my doctors time.
I had vaginal irritation starting a couple weeks after a C-section. I had my labia pried apart and examined for herpes three different times. Even went to an ER and was refused OB referral. OB who botched my C-section refuses to see me. Turns out I had endometritis from a botched C section, only discovered because we spent $20,000 having it fixed in the US. I snapped on a family doctor at a walk in clinic because she was the 148843098488439th person to explain to me I have BV and offer me probably my 10th vaginal swab. Fired two family doctors. I tell these docs the same thing, I'm a married 40 year old woman I don't have a STD.
That’s crazy! I am also a mother in my 40s and I’ve been taking the same ADHD medication for nearly 6 years. My medication is also a controlled substance, but my family doctor is able to prescribe a three month supply with three additional refills so the prescription covers 12 months in total. This means my doctor only has to a renewal once a year.
I don’t know if it’s worth talking to your doctor or your pharmacist and finding out if they need to continue making you go in every month or every three months because it’s absolutely ridiculous and a waste of you and your doctor’s time.
That’s a conversation you have to address with your doctor. It’s their choice to give you refills or not, regardless of whether it is a controlled substance. I encountered something similar and had to impress on the doctor that this complicated the consistency of medication flow and created far too many steps for everyone including the pharmacist. Seems like they’re able to bill for ordering the script...? And now trying to do that more often. Im not sure, but I can’t think of other reasons considering they’re always claiming they’re too short on time. Seems like a make-work project if not for extra billing purposes. Tell your doctor you need and expect more refills. Talk to your pharmacist who now has greater powers and may be able to advocate and make suggestions to improve care.
It is all about money and control. There are so many medicines don't need doctor visit for refill but the government keep it under control of the doctor so the doctor make money for the visit and then you take it to pharmacy where they make money for service. In so many countries you don't need to go to doctor for prescription just go and buy from pharmacy.
@CikisHelyzet that's the point though the doctors want money from you. Now my doctor is also charging additional fees for getting refills via phone because supposedly thry can't bill the government for it, which I find ridiculous. I've been taking this medication for 10 years, why the hell do they need to make either waste my time going in on a bi-monthly basis or pay extra to get it refilled by calling in when we have a doctor shortage? I'd rather someone else who actually needs an appointment but it seems they disagree. We don't have a vyvanse epidemic killing people on the streets.
Bringing half a million immigrants per year is another big problem !
You can't just throw that statistic out, without looking at home many people in Canada have died during the same period, and the amount of heath care transfer increases. BTW, 53% increase in health care spending since 2015, plus more than $20 billion during Covid! Oh, and many of those immigrants are the current doctors and nurses that are working in health care. You can't spew your hatred of immigrants without being given the actual facts.
Not if they are drs, nurse practitioners and pharmacists (since Ontario has downloaded services from the dr to a pharmacist).
@@lizliz4186The socialists don’t allow them to practice. Try to keep up.
@GotoHere Doug Ford's a socialist?
um... i think they are bringing in a lot of illegals and throwing money at them.
I am a family physician in Ontario. I’m working 14 hours per day, 6 days a week. I have 4-5 hours PER DAY in paperwork. I deal with people yelling at my staff and myself everyday because I can’t see them when they want to be seen. I get yelled at because specialist’s appointments are too far ahead. I’m doing my best but it’s never enough. My daughter wants to help me and went to medical school. She has a PHD and had to go to IRELAND for medical school. Now there is no guarantee she can come back to do family practice in my office. I’m at a total loss of what to do. Call your MP and demand better treatment for your family doctor!! And allow our own citizens easier passage to return from abroad when their own med schools wouldn’t take them in favour of foreign students!!! Shameful
I feel your pain. This crises was created by Doug Fords Conservative government. Vote him out..
Doug Ford wants to destroy the healthcare system so people accept replacing it with a private system. Which we should never do. Also the OMA is full of crap.
@@bossman6174… Mr. Trudeau bears no responsibility for any of this debacle? I beg to differ…
Clinics are accepting too many patients. Decreased quality of care for all.
@@longdong3889 you say they take too many. If they don't then more patients would be without a doctor. Also the only way family doctors can cover cost. Catch 22. We need more funding.
You cannot sustain extremely high levels of immigration without adding housing, doctors, nurses, educators and other essential services, Canada is not prepared. This will get worse as long as our leadership in Ottawa continues down the same road.
By design. Wake up.
Wow, and do you know (apparently not), how many of those immigrants are working in health care? Have a look at some facts. www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-006-x/2021001/article/00004-eng.htm Where do you think our health care would be without them?
Open door immigration or socialized programs. Choose one. Having both at the same time is a mathematical impossibility.
@@billhacks And when does Canada have "Open Door" immigration? And Canada has ALWAYS had socialized programs! The question should be asked, are you even a Canadian?
People who works in health care also knows a lot of patients are demanding and disrespectful too! For example, people would demand antibiotics for a self diagnosed condition or for a viral infection despite education on the overuse of antibiotics
I reside in QC and have been searching for a family doctor for more than two years now. It's disheartening that I haven't been able to find a doctor willing to accept me as a patient. It feels like neither the health care professionals nor the health department are concerned about our well-being. 😔
Ask to be on the list with Sante Quebec. You need to make a declaration and you will be put on a waiting list. While on the waiting list, you will have access to a doctor. I did and I am impressed how better it is than the old walk-in clinic process. You call 411, get your appointment, show up 15 minutes earlier, and you are out in less than 1 hour.
@evalangley3985 I don't find it this easy we are on the list too,.no one answers phone, no walk in clinic and I've gone private for care the list is impossible, my friend has been on it for 15 years!!!
Bring more people and let Canadian go to welfare and without healthcare and food. Well done Justin. We are on the verge of begging and dying due to lack of treatment while you bring immigrants for tax collection.
Most immigrants work and pay in cash so theirs no tax being generated really.
So some key variables here worth addressing in greater details (given all the questions in the comments below). For perspective - I’m a GP in Ontario.
I graduated 5 years ago after 11 years of post secondary education … and all the expenses that came with it … and the lost opportunity cost of not working in that time … and the brutal training that cost me my 20s while all my friends were living their lives and starting a future.
1) GPs in Ontario make an average of $37 per patient seen. That’s pre- overhead. Overhead is quoted to be around 30%, so that’s about $26 h/patient. At 3 patients an hour that’s about $78/h. I know hairdressers who charge more than that. I also pay at least 7K a year to keep my license up to date, pay for medical legal insurance, etc.
2) We actually do an average quoted amount of 19h of unpaid paperwork a week. So be sure to split that $78/h along that as well. In a 60 hour work week that reduces the hourly wage to $52/h.
3) I get no pension, no benefits, no vacation days, no sick leave, no maternity leave. So factor that too.
This is why your GP doesn’t spend more time with you. They can’t afford to. They need to see more than 3 patients an hour to make this worth it.
Now ultimately, post overhead I clocked $160K as my salary last year. It’s a good number, I recognize that. It’s more than what a lot of Canadians make. I recognize that too. But at the risk of being judged, I didn’t go through all that training and the sacrifice of my 20s to make an average salary.
And here’s the thing - I haven’t seen a raise in the last 5 years (since I graduated). Overhead is rising with inflation but we get no proportional raises so that’s an annual reduction in pay. We get an opportunity for a raise every 4 years when we negotiate with the government…. But we have no bargaining power because we can’t legally strike… so we never do well in these negotiations. So historically, our raises don’t keep up with the rising cost of overhead and our take home pay diminishes.
Am I happy with what I make now? Actually, yes.
Am I aware that inflation will keep eroding into it and my pay will keep reducing and there’s nothing I can do about it? Yes.
Do I watch my professional friends who work in other fields get annual raises and wonder if I picked a sustainable field in the long run? Yes.
Do I envy other healthcare professionals, like NPs, who get similar salaries … see fewer patients an hour… and have benefits? Yes.
Do I have alternative career options that can provide me more income with more benefits? Absolutely.
Are these careers better for my mental health because ultimately taking care of sick and dying people in a failing system is brutal psychologically? Absolutely.
Am I only human, and therefore capable of leaving a stressful job for a less stressful job … that pays better … with more benefits? Yes. I don’t want to. What a waste of my education if I did! And what about the poor patients I’ll leave behind?
But I see it happening eventually. And if you’re being honest … who wouldn’t do the same if given the opportunity for such a career change?
To be honest, Ive had very very bad experiences with numerous doctors and have a strong bias against them, but I cant find anything you wrote that is wrong. Medicine is a bad field, basically.
@@MedicalAutonomyProject
I don’t blame you. There are some truly bad doctors out there.
But I’ll say this. When I started medical school most students were interested in helping people. By the time we finished we were absolutely crushed psychologically. A lot of us lost our humanity and just wanted to start our lives … which included making money to compensate for lost years and large debts.
But in family medicine you need to see large volumes of patients an hour to do that.
No doctor can maintain their humanity seeing a large number of patients per hour. No doctor can even be thorough and properly do their job seeing a large number of patients per hour. They burn out and stop caring.
Better pay will allow doctors to see fewer patients per hour and keep their humanity. Which will likely produce better outcomes for patient health … which means the patient won’t need to come and will need less system resources. At least, in my opinion. This won’t be true for all doctors, but it will for a decent chunk.
Thank you for spelling this out as you did. I am in a similar position to where you were: recent MSc while my life was in a holding pattern.
I applied twice 4-5 yrs ago when I started my post-grad, no luck, despite meeting the average admissions criteria. I then concluded the MD career path is not worth my TIME/investment because where's the ROI at? My final straw came with the passing of my grandparents ie the sick and dying; I want to live thanks.
I'm a professional but also skilled at multiple trades (thanks to JT's lock downs & my holding pattern) so I have now a near-lifetime supply of personal transport and a meager-shelter generating capacity at under 30. I can charge more per h than a GP in at least two trades with similar overhead or hire myself in my spare time: my 'gym' membership pays me. Become resilient to the Incoming Stagflation I said 5 years ago thanks to Schiff & Kiyosaki. And I'll be getting off this sinking ship, as JBP put it, in search of capital equity and a scalable business. The OMA won't waste any more of my time.
ALL businesses that are incorporated have expenses that must be paid by the owner of the business. I am a GP and do fine. I work 5 days a week. Many GO’s don’t want to work 5 days a week. Work Life balance. That’s rhetorical problems. Work more.
@@ILOVESTEAK10
When pay rates don’t keep up with inflation, it doesn’t matter how hard you work. It’ll catch up in the end. The government historically hasn’t kept physician salaries up to date with inflation... so there’s no reason to expect they ever will.
You may be ok with what you make right now, but in ten years will you be happy with it when it’s barely budged and your overhead has kept disproportionately rising? It’s a sinking ship and bucketing the water out is getting harder and harder so people are abandoning ship.
I’ve had 3 family doctors over the past 10 years or so.
The first left to BC to retire. The second one left Toronto after being burnt out during Covid.
Let’s see how long my current GP will last. He’s always booked solid so I suspect he’s feeling overwhelmed and may soon move on as well.
I have fired two family doctors in 5 years.
This was all predicted 40 years ago when free trade was proposed
Has zero to do with free trade. It's the millions of immigrants coming in....
I would advise many young family doctors that BURNOUT IS A GUARANTEE in Ontario.
RS, MD, FRCS
The jokes and tropes about burnt out family doctors are now at the point where they’re no longer funny. 😔
Everyone is burnt out! Doctors don’t work harder than many other people. The problem is their mindset.
@@Stardusted1 oh I forgot you probably are responsible to your job 24/7. Doctors can't go on holiday without having to check their patient labs and charts. They do 20 hours of paperwork every week that is unpaid. They are responsible to the physical health of a human for $38 a visit which comes to less than $20 a visit after overhead with no support from the government. This after 300 K of debt from medical school.
Last 8 years dark period of canada . Justin T need to go . Home crisis and unlimited refugees
@@Stardusted1So you work 20 hour days and make $30/hour after 10 years of schooling and thousands in tuition fees?
GC Strategies has a solution.
At the bargain basement price of 260 million dollars!
Canadian politicians and the pharma interest groups who pay them millions don't allow most highly skilled medical professionals from other countries to practice in their field because many have advanced knowledge in holistic medicine that would regularly prevent the sale of pharmaceuticals and other toxic petroleum byproducts. I have a local emerg doctor who had the time and funds to be "reeducated" but fortunately retained all of his previous knowledge and literature. He has sent me and my wife to the local health food store rather then the pharmacy several times with incredible results.
Pouring money into a dysfunctional system is counter productive. Reform the whole system, its 2023, not the 1960's.
Go to the US 🇺🇸
No one is pouring money into anything, it's all cuts dude..
@@ellzedd4113ask, yes, the US where people loose their homes trying to pay for health care?
@@ZhuanRenLeiwell, ottawa has literally poured billions into it. The question is what is the province doing with it?
@@lizliz4186 I have never met a single American loose their home because of health care costs.
I haven’t had a doctor since mine retired in 2015. I am 63, just at the point in life i need a doctor. I never even knew hormone replacement therapy was a thing and now i am too old to benefit
You have to take your health into your own hands, doctors are only in business because you stay sick.
Exactly! Their actual business model is our disease! No disease, no money, no house, then we have sick homeless doctors in need of medical aid.
They work 20 hour days, are always under threat of being sued if they are meticulous about taking notes. Just so they can get paid $30/hour. Please stop visiting your "greedy" family doctor and just quit. Take your health into your own hands, sounds like you trust Dr.Google more anyways.
My husband and I (seniors) north of Barrie, lost our family doctor 4 yrs ago now, when we needed one most. We have been on this list now for 4 Yrs. And were told to also call drs offices, unfortunately you can never get through to the offices or to the doctor. We tried calling our coordinator 😢 but all voice mail ! It's disgusting what has happened in our healthcare system
I believe all senior Government leaders should give up their family Doctors and give the space to the citizens they serve. This would create an incentive to solve the problem as they experience the realities of not having a family Doctor.
You do mean, provincial senior government leaders right? Hiring doctors and nurses fall under provincial jurisdiction.
I witnessed myself too many medical school graduates go to Aesthetic Medicine without any hesitancy.
And most of them fail because it’s a difficult business.
The problem with socialism is you run out of spending other people’s money.
I was born and raised in Ontario since I moved to a city in Ontario about 15 years ago I have been without a family doctor I have an org that is helping me find a doctor too and have no luck I have to take time off work in order to drive around handing in applications but it seems newcomers can get a family doctor faster then I can but with the cost of living and just everything like it is I am so ready to get out of this Country because it's not the Country I was born and raised in and I am so tired of this country.
We are leaving too. An ER doc just told me 6-12 months to see an OB-GYN. Why on earth would I stay in this country?
And what country is waiting for you with open doors and advanced medical care? Just qurious.
@@TroyQwert USA!!!!! Spend $20,000 to have a C section isthmocele (caused by a Canadian OB) revised. Money talks. Why am I staying here paying these high taxes to not get healthcare? This country is a dump
@@MedicalAutonomyProject , isn't everyone blaming Obama care? May be you're not aware?
This reply is compilated by Perplexity, an AI based tool:
The Canadian healthcare system is often considered to perform better than the healthcare system in the United States. Canada's system is a single-payer, mostly publicly-funded system, while the U.S. has a multi-payer, heavily private system. Canada spends less of its GDP on healthcare compared to the U.S., yet it performs better in terms of health outcomes like infant mortality rate and life expectancy. While access is generally better in Canada, patients there may sometimes experience longer wait times compared to the U.S. Both countries have highly capable medical professionals, but the U.S. has higher healthcare costs and worse health outcomes overall among high-income nations.
In summary, the Canadian healthcare system is often cited as a well-functioning example of universal healthcare with lower costs and better health outcomes compared to the U.S.
The issue is not pay, it's supply. We don't graduate enough doctors intentionally.
🎯
There are enough family physicians in Ontario, it's just not beneficial for a lot of them to open a clinic. They work in the ER or other areas where they get paid more and don't have the burden of running a business.
Exactly. Even hospitals have a shortage of trained MDs and other staff so it's system wide & not just family physicians. The provinces restricted medical school seats for decades before the Federal liberals decided to migrant dump millions of people on our already precarious health care system.
Not addressing another obvious cause: insanely high immigration levels. So any problems with an inefficient and archaic system become exponentially magnified.
Get some facts. www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-006-x/2021001/article/00004-eng.htm
Start from the top! Who gets their hands on the money first from our taxes? Then go down the list. I think the problems could be helped.
In grim detail. Every last nickel.
I was told that it was a 3 yr wait 4 a family Dr., in Elliot Lake Ontario, on July 2nd, 2018. 5.5 yrs and "4 acronyms" later, I am STILL waiting!
The issue is what incentive is there for a young doctor to move to small rural places far from amenities and luxuries they can spend their high doctor salaries on? They all want to be in Vancouver and Toronto! Doctors that do go to these places do it only until they can find another more desirable location. In USA they have programs that choose young people from these communities to go to medical school cuz they have a higher chance of going back and staying. We should be doing more of that
@@Tribuneoftheplebs They are mostly in those cities because thats mostly where they come from. Statistically, if most people live in those cities, you would expect most to work there too.
all I can say is... Canada has all the means but other countries has less means but have more options when it comes to health care... I have never seen this kind of health care delivery system... you come to a hospital and wait for freaking 12 hours to be seen by a Dr. its very poor.
Try 6-12 months to see an OB-GYN if you are not pregnant
The health care system should use software that is used across all healthcare platforms. It’s government funded, so there should be no reason for it not to exist. Our health records should all be kept in a central place where all healthcare facilities have access to your health records (including the individual). It’d make the processes faster and provide safer healthcare
Not just Ontario, Same everywhere in Canada 😢
With the new pathology discovery of white fibrous rubbery vein castings, I'm wondering if the patient/doctor ratio will self adjust accordingly.
huh?
Wake up!
THIS IS INSANE!!!! They should have free rent paid by the government, and free admin staff/reception support.
Government doesn't make money. It is all our money, the taxpayer's money.
CMA artificially restricting number of spaces in school and doctors practising.
“Protection of the public” More like protection of our pockets!
In USA they were closing dental schools because dentists “were not making enough.” They didn’t want affordable dental care that could have put the dental insurance industry out of business. Don’t be fooled medical providers love insurance, because it artificially drives up costs. And they would have to collect that money from each patient.
Our Friends daughter went to US to become a Doctor, couldn’t get into medical school here.
@@GotoHere Ding ding ding. You are correct. All insurance is garbage. The main lever of power we as consumers have over doctors is $$$$$$$$. Without insurance, they are our employees.
Not true. The spots in medical school do not limit how many doctors work here. 25% of new doctors every year in ontario are from outside of canada.
In Mississauga a NEW walk in clinic is opening every week . ?
This is brilliant and a VERY REAL trend happening all over the US, Canada, Australia, and parts of Europe. I recently posted a series of videos on my channel explaining how the US healthcare system has collapsed and the ramifications it is having on patients and healthcare providers. I'm a family medicine MD turned medicolegal consulting physician and believe me, things are about to get much worse. Thank you CBC for shining some light on this tragic phenomenon and I'd be 100% down for an interview to discuss this topic as I am in a very unique medical position!
Most people going to the family doctor are going for reasons that don’t warrant a family doctor visit to begin with. Send them to other healthcare practitioners who can provide primary care. (Nurses, Physiotherapist etc)
All of the specialists gatekeep referrals though, requiring those MD referrals
@@MedicalAutonomyProjectnursing and Physiotherapists do not need MD referrals to treat
@@connorcaba2492 I needed a C section reversion surgery. Can a physiotherapist do that? I need a repeat uterine biopsy with microbiology culture, can a nurse do that?
@@MedicalAutonomyProject, can a family doc do that?
@@MedicalAutonomyProject you completely disregarded the basis of my original comment. Read it again
I am a Canadian citizen and a family physician trained abroad. Have decided to stay and practice in the US for now. Just the cost of licensure is almost $1000 more than in the US. Plus, I only need to see about 18 patients per day for similar salary as in Canada where you have to see almost 30 patients daily. Seeing that many patients in one day can cause burn out and since you’re rushing, you just can’t do the best for your patient.
I had a 6 1/2 yrs search before I found one at my Local Hospital. The Pandemic certainly disrupted that search process. It is so important to have a Physician who knows the Health patient's Medical History for Continuity and Referral purposes. Public Clinics can be Inadequate because of lack of Continuity. The other major problem with which we struggle, is that we keep electing Govts that put Profits before People...who want to Privatize every Human - Community Resource and encourage and cajole folks to go along with the Program.
I had a family doctor who totally twisted my obstetric history. She painted me as a crazy person with two prior C sections desperately wanting to have a VBA2C. The reality of the situation was Id only had one 1 c sec and was being bullied into a dangerous TOLAC. I called her in psychiatric crisis and told her the story of how my fertility clinic botched and ultrasound and created a high-risk pregnancy. I had no idea she totally twisted my history until after I fired her and got a copy of my records. Her lack of care culminated in us spending $20,000 to have a botched C section fixed in the US
They should fire more doctors and nurses. That should help.
I like your thinking, exactly.... Emrg act what rubbish.
Something is very wrong and don’t make sense… I’m 38 and my wife is 33, and we are very healthy and have never really needed to go to the doctors when we were younger, but now that we want to do regular checkups, no one is accepting patients, even when we got referrals from other people in the healthcare field, still rejected. So what is the solution… ?
LOL I have news for you, physicals are not OHIP covered anymore!
“When I grownup I wanna be a doctor to make lots of money”-CBC talking head. Anyone else hear there’s something wrong with that thinking
So you want people who spent more than a decade in college and specialized training, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to not make lots of money? It is a sad, sad state of affairs in Canada to expect highly educated individuals like doctors to basically work for next to nothing.
No. The only thing wrong here is people expecting doctors to provide top-tier care for peanuts.
@@shauncameron8390 If your primary goal is making money go work for a hedge fund. Doctors first priority is to help patients.
THANKS ALOT FOR DESTROYNG THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM DOUG FORD
Not just doug ford. This is 40 years of federal and provincial mismanagement
did Doug Ford jam million of immigrants in here? That was Trudeau. Sorry chap dont vote liberal next time
all of infrastructure is overloaded because of liberals. Schools, hospitals, roads, transit. Doug cant control how many people are brought here
@@susanb4816 every province is having this problem. Its only the partisan people that want to blame one specific party even though as you said this has been a problem in the making for decades.
It looks like Manitoba is doing better. Yesterday they announced that they are hiring 400 doctors, 300 nurses, and 200 paramedics, but Ontario is going in the reverse position.
I really hope this isn't leading to a scenerio like in the US, where doctors are forced to quit their own practices, and forced to work for corporation style healthcare networks.
I have an excellent family doctor who's part of a health clinic and it's never been a problem making appointments and getting care.
I have 3 kids and have never once got a same day appointment for any of them
@@MedicalAutonomyProject Well, it's highly unusual for anyone to get a same day appointment with doctors. I usually get an appointment with my doctor within a week.
@@masteronionnorth2341 Why are we settling for garbage care? Why should we have to go into a walk in for every urgent issue and experience the discontinuity of care?
Health care in Canada is beyond broken. The 2 waiting room system at the ER instead of beds is torture, people don't go to the ER because they feel up to sitting upright in a waiting room chair for at least 8hrs.
My hack is to go at 5am
@MedicalAutonomyProject it's less wait, but still, the 2 waiting room system. Last 3 trips to the ER were over 24hrs wait for a bed.
In BC its already 1 in 4 citizens without a family doctor.
This is what happens when instead of giving permanent residency to trained and prepared doctors from abroad with better opportunities you send them to do the lowest jobs , and instead bring thousands of international students to take their money to pay extraordinary high tuition fees.
This system symply does not work!
Admin bureaucrats co opted the system to perpetuate their self-enriching grift at public health's expense.
American healthcare atill going strong right?
And do you want to go bankrupt paying for simple health care?
@@ITforeveryone
To some, that's better than ending up dead because they couldn't get simple healthcare at all especially in a timely manner.
"administrative burden" - fully support getting rid of that to save money and health
What are the bottleneck requirements in administration
Do we really need family doctors? AI can do it. We only need referrals to specialists.
I've been paying 50$ per appointment on rocket doctor. I have to book 3 to 4 months in advance and after the second appointment being canceled and me having to scramble. For 50$ I can book my appointment the day before, it starts on time, I can do the appointment anywhere and they don't cancel.
I have a concierge nurse practitioner I am very happy with. Refuse to have a family doctor.
@@MedicalAutonomyProject
You keep saying that you like your concierge NP. How much does that cost you?
i can get i to a doctor the same day here in Ecuador, where i moved once Trudope was elected. Get out while you can
Help existing family doctors in single practice transition!!!!!!!!!!
Be a tradesman, research proper nutrition, exercise, lifestyle. Almost certain you will not be seeing a doc to often, results may vary per person.
Tradesman = high chance of getting injured or killed on the job.
Doug is busy with his health spa and beer on every corner, typical Conservatives businessman.
PP is busy blaming everything on the drama teacher.
Pay not keeping up with the inflation, wow 😮 …
I have said this before and I will say it again: Doctors, Nurses, Teachers, spoiled government workers always crying and complaining about money and wanting more, more, more. Imagine how it feels to be a regular person trying to survive nowadays with significantly lower wages (Vast majority of the population)? So sick and tired of these complainers…
as always another uninformed "patient" - Nurses teachers gov workers get sick days, vacation, medical benefits , pension the right to be in a union the right to strike - DOCTORS HAVE NONE OF THAT -> thanks to this Nurses and gov workers got a 12-14 % pay raise over the next four years.
Any private business in Ontario ( or Canada) for that matter has had to pay more for their staff wages , cost of goods , rent etc and what do they do...RAISE prices and pass them down to the consumer - why do you think it costs 16-18$ at A&W for a teenburger, onion rings and a drink compared to 8-11$ pre- COVID ...a family practice MD cannot increase the cost of the visit because it is regulated by the government!!!
The useless OMA leadership has managed to get ZERO PERCENT RAISE in the last year of the negotiation with the government because the government knows that Doctors are not allowed to be in a union and NOT allowed to strike because if they do so they can get their license revoked...talk about having the upper hand.
Yes there are specialists in medicine raking in big bucks ( ENT, dermatology, radiology, ophthalmology, plastics) and yes they are overpaid compared to their peers ( especially ER MDs who face life threatening issues EVERY DAY ) but these are NOT the majority of MD's in the province.
the next time you go to a lawyer and they charge between 200-2500$ per Hour because it is privatized think about what you would pay for an MD to save a relative's life in the ED if they were dying in front of your eyes....because in the ED those doctors are doing that almost every day
Our fees was cut more than 20 percent compared with 2012. With inflation translates to much more reduction
I am a senior engineer and the income is also terrible. Been in the industry for 15 years and I can’t afford a house.
Sir how much do you earn as a engineer? Plz reply. Thanks a lot.
Given the charade of the past 4 years. I wouldn't go anywhere near Canada's "healthcare" system with a 10 foot poll. Only in absolute emergency cases would I risk being treated in Canada (as there is really no other option) by its fascist discriminatory and negligent healthcare system, and even then it will be under extreme caution and skepticism. YOU know what you did, and we will never ever forget.
And what did Trudeau do? Provide an increase of more than 53% in health care transfers since taking office? Or provide an additional $20 billion to provinces during Covid! Maybe you should educate yourself on who is responsible for hir
ing/training and keep nurses and doctors - it's the provinces responsibility!
Yeah I bet ALL the POLITICIANS got no problem with finding a doc eh? But then again the POLITICIANS got no problem EATING and having SHELTER. Doctors aren't getting the proper pay but those POLITICIANS sure get they're $250,000 PENSIONS eh?
Good thing we have BILLIONS to give AWAY while Canada suffers! Thanks Lib/NDP. Vote people. We need this incompetent corruption out and put in jail!
Do u think the Conservative Party would he any different ? They would pay even more to fuel America led genocides overseas. The issue is the morality of the country.
You realize the provincial conservative governments are the ones privatizing your health care. Also, are the provinces that were recently given billions of dollars by the federal lib/NDP government?.
Sorry mad that the lib NDP government gave them billions? Or you're mad because the provincial conservatives lost that money?
It seems to me the big expenditure is the clinic itself. What else does a doctor need? a stethoscope and a pc. Has anyone provided advice on how not to overspend on property and support staff? Years a go GP's would set up practice from home in well selected residential houses with a dedicated room for practice. Living above the shop. I imagine some of these clinics are impressive multi million dollar concerns.
It took me 4 years after being released from the Military to find a family doctor. I was told by multiple family doctors that they don't accept Veterans as new patients; and when I asked why, I was told bluntly that they don't want to deal with the BS from Veterans Affairs.
When I finally found a doctor who would take me on as a patient, she saw me 3 times, and now sent me a letter saying she is leaving the city and closing her practice. She came here long enough to get the huge signing bonus; but as soon as that obligation was met; she was gone.
Not sure how long I'll have to wait now.
But hey....at least it's free right?
Just dont be unnerved that they are among the biggest gold diggers out there
Who is “they”?
A couple of local doctors in my area who were inundated with report requests and paperwork from Veterans Affairs bureaucrats.
I don't blame the doctors.
The doctors at my practice sure don't seem overworked.
Good if that's the case.
Im 36 and have not seen a doctor since my early 20s...
57 here, saw a doctor for 5 min in 2010. then I went to a walk-in clinic and I saw a LPN. But if I want botox I got lots to choose from.
Norman Bethune knew how to deliver health care.
How about increasing university cohorts? There’s no shortage of young bright people willing to be doctors.
That’s not the solution. Becoming a family doctor is bring less and less attractive due to low income, high overhead expenses, unpaid work hours spent on infinity amount of labs and investigations result and administrative tasks in addition to spent hours on direct patient contact, lack of infrastructures, high cost of professional duties, electronic medical records, etc. Newly trained doctors will never risk this and will join hospitals or more focused practices like pain management, palliative , etc instead of comprehensive family medicine.
Ive been going to a walk-in clinic since 2005. No family Doctor.
I have 2 young children under the age of 5 with no family doctor!!!!
I had been with my own family doctor for 36yrs until his, well deserved, retirement.
WE NEED DOCTORS
It's you.
The Guy didn't answer the question of how much family doctors are making. I am sick and tired of the 5 minutes time given by the family doctor on each visit.
$37 ($26 after overhead) per visit whether it’s 10 min or 60min. That’s it. The NP charges $75-100, your lawyer $250-500, plumber $200 hairdresse for cut and colour $50-250 depending on the salon. See where I’m
Going with this.
Maybe those high and mighty doctors should treat patients better than just ignoring them and kicking them out to suffer
Back in the '50s family doctors and engineers had approximately the same take-home income. Somehow over the years these diverged significantly, and now these doctors can't see themselves as middle-income again. Also this doctor talks about net income declining because of inflation, but costs are mostly fixed and he doesn't talk about how loss of public trust in the medical profession after the shmovid disaster has affected patient visits.
How are costs fixed when rent, staff salaries and costs of supplies have been going up significantly?! Income for family physicians isn't down because patients aren't coming to them, it's down because their costs are going up, and also - in part - because they have patients with increasingly complex health care needs that take more time, for which the pay is the same as for a shorter visit. With an aging population there will be more of that coming. On top of it, many can't see as many patients in a day because the amount of work done after visits are over has increased to over 2 hours/day.
@@donnahenrikson1320 those poor doctors. In BC, what do they make, $400K/year. Pays for a few office supples, lol.
@@kwimms”pay for a few office supplies “. Really is that what you think or are you just trolling. Do I need to list all the things that are paid for out of gross billings? The hourly rate for your fam doc in Ontario after overhead has been taken is less than a hairdresser. You’d be surprised buddy!
@@kwimms Your error here is comparing their gross earnings to salaries. From that 400k , they have to pay 30-40% for expenses like office rent, staff salaries, equipment etc. And after deducting for loss income for time off, pension, taxes, etc, youre left with a fraction of that. Its still well paid, but far lower than 400k.
Notice that the first thing he brings up is $$. Why can a small country like Cuba with a poulation of 11million turn out three times as many doctors as Canada? And these doctors are well respected in the Spanish world.
The Spanish world have low standards. Brazil rejected said doctors due to their credentials not being up to par.
They're cash cows for the Cuban government as they only get to keep 10% of their real earnings.
Not at all..here in my country this cuban doctors can not pass the exams to practice medicine..they got many voids in his professional studies..were found not suitables for treating people...
Seems reasonable! The workload is crazy and needs to be streamlined! Thx.
In Quebec, all the orphan patients will eventually fall on a list that provide them with an access to a doctor. I am on that list and it is working really well. Every time I want to see a doctor, I just call 411 and I get an appointment in a clinic under 48 hours. Walk-in clinics are a thing of the past here.
There are walking clinics available at malls. Government will open doors for foreign doctors and ontarian doctors who got their designation outside the country.
Will … I don’t see this happening in near future.
Who is going to monitor and certify all those new docs? Oh and btw, the govt doesn’t want more doctors to pay. They blamed the current docs for the increased use from post covid and immigration as a reason they ran out of money so no raise this year again, docs apparently worked too hard! But teachers and nurses are still getting 5-7% retroactive pay because bill 124 got voted down, not so for doctors they just can never win!
its not just doctors - its the whole system
Its a vicious cycle: shortage of Doctors and nurses mean they have to work longer hours, and they get burned-out and quit.
Making the problem even worse.
Canada is not shot on doctors and nurses. Just like international students issue highlighted very late this issue is very similar but the media is not covering it since it will effect the big banks.
Canadian hospitals take self sponsored trainees from oil rich countries. Doctors need three to six years hospital training called residency to get a license to work as a doctor.
But most of the seats go to international trainee's who mostly comes from countries like saudia.
And after training they returned to their own countries due to better pay.
This way hospitals gets huge funding but Canada gets doctors shortages and the common man suffers.
The jr doctors loose time, hope and motivation.
They either switched countries or their careers in Canada.
This is another issue which needs to be addressed by the government but sadly no one is addressing it.
Make it easier for doctors to come from across the pond they'd be happy to make the move like gp from uk
When you think about it, we're all paying into the same healthcare system. If you don't have a family doctor and just use the walk-in you're getting shafted.
In Alberta, one in four people have been without a family doctor for years. Brace yourself Ontario.
Really?????? 😂 when i moved to Canada two decades ago the 2 things that struck me was doctors and teachers.....they worked for 5 times the salary for not even half the work. Besides isnt the average salary across Canada currently somewhere near 60K🤔 when education and health becaome business it can never benefit society in the long term. Why doesnt the place support and allow alternate medical systems as well????🙄
So your primary assumption is incorrect. Teachers are unionized employees and make a salary with benefits, doctors are contracted to the govt (single payor) who can lower the fees it’s willing to pay at any time with no warning. Doctors therefore run a business that can never charge more and those govt fees have been held the same for a decade. A doctor may only bill $37/visit whether that is 10 min or 60min. From that they must pay for staff, rent, computer system, toilet paper all of which have gone up with inflation. After overhead, your fam doc is making less than your hairdresser. The NPs however are not chained to ohip and charge $75-100/visit. You think this is fair?
The government should create public clinics and remove any financial burden and remove the self-employment burden for those doctors. At the same time, doctors would lose their self-employment status, which is a big negative for some doctors.
Went to Ottawa Hospital for a persistent rib pain as I don’t have family doctor . The nurse at triage mocked me and told your symptom is not acute , why u didn’t go to a walk in clinic , ok wait for 11 hrs ! Waited over 6 hrs , had to leave without seeing the doctor as at that point the nurses were not able to let me know an approximate time when a doctor will see me !
There is a system through health care connect which says the nurses will try to find a doctor once we register with them . But they told their chances of finding a family doctor is almost null in the next couple of years ! Let the government invest in developing our basic infrastructure and needs with our tax money rather than giving out money to scam projects ! Prioritize citizens first , remember the oath you took while sworning in , serve Canada ! Show some sincerity to the people here
Thanks dougie for slashing funding on everything that people need to manufacture privatized Healthcare...
I agree..and as a clinic nurse I feel I am now the working poor...a trickle effect...way too much unpaid work for the family practitioners. I hope this is fixed..My BF makes more money then family doctors cleaning toilets at a Nuclear Plant... What the heck is going on. But now millions to put liquor in corner stores. Priorities are not right.
If this isnt an alarming trend..i dont know what is
Ehhhh already been a thing in BC for years welcome to the club
Too many old people have regular appointments that are unnecessary & are clogging up the system.
Ditto for Quebec.
The guy should ve been clearer, more explicit describing the problem
This is a problem across the country.
I thought Doctors barely helped people so that patients would keep coming back? If that's the case, then they would have eventually got burnt out, and they should have seen this coming
They created a business model that generates repeat sales and encourages continuous spending. Products that are bought once and last forever do not provide a recurring revenue stream, which can limit a company's growth and profitability over time. Just like treatment that can get rid of an issue forever.
Respectfully, that’s just not true. We are not fee for service anymore. We actually get paid by our roster size. And again, respectfully, I try my very best for each and every patient. I HATE when treatment doesn’t work. Makes my job harder. And I don’t know if a single colleague who thinks differently.
@@kristinterenzi9442 The Experience others and I have had would say differently and the video directly says that Family Medicine is a business model. Also says that family doctors own a business and they are reliant on billing, patients, and the ability to provide care.
Making Family Medicine a business model primarily benefits economic growth and profits rather than directly improving health and well-being of individuals
Doug Ford cut our helath care funding. This guy onlyvis here to make his buds rich (and you think they won't share with their friend?).
Let us make it simple, for every doctor that leaves… 10,000 Ontario government workers are fired right then… and no out sourcing of that government work… get the government motivated…. Not more b.s.