Tekken Tag 2: Boring at Breakneck Speeds
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2023
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Tag 2 has the coolest stages in the franchise. It really feels like the world is coming together for a tekken tournament. The menus too really reinforce the idea of a tournament with all the smoke machines and led light backgrounds. I'm really hoping they come back for 8.
Don't hold your breath
I feel you, TTT2 and T4 are the best in series stage-wise. I hope they will add some stage gimmicks once again like they did back in the T4. Or at least make the good believable stages like in TTT2. But CNT arenas already felt better than T7, so I hope for the best.
oh oh oh oh oh, oh oh oh oh, oh oh oh oh oh oh ,oh oh oh OHHH
@@drhashbrown6848🕺🏿🕺🏿🕺🏿
Check out T8 stages lmao
I think I remember Knee and some other Tekken pros saying the biggest problem with this game was that there was too much to study.
too much study for a tekken game is wild
you will never make me join the anti movement movement instead of the movement movement
exactly...why would i want nerfed movement in a fucking 3D fighting game...
Especially after the point that got brought up with SoulCalibur where the nerfed movement kinda made it enter the dark ages.
Up until 6 brought it back.
I like to movement movement, I like to movement movement,
You like to? MOVEMENT!!!
There are plenty of problems with TTT2 imo, but movement is not one of them. My biggest gripe with Tekken 7 has always been that way too many moves hit me both sides when I sidestep/sidewalk, Tekken 8 felt like it remedied this (I was able to step electrics consistently) but the backdash nerf is....definitely a choice
@@slowactingh2012The backdash nerfs are character specific. King got hella nerf in the backdash department, he makes up for it in armor moves and unbreakable throws.
That’s why dashing before moves, mixing up timing, wave dashing to realign is a thing, you can watch high level tag2 matches, and while JDCR dominated the game with movement, it’s not like people were step guarding everything at high level, how this videos makes it seem lol
Honestly I knew there was going to be some BS in the video when he started out the video addressing Smash as a "fighting game".
That's not me being petty or denouncing the skill involved in Smash, it's just a Brawler, not a Fighting Game and I get sorta tired of people blurring the lines between those genres, especially when the same community eventually realized there were too many fundamental differences to ignore and created their OWN terms that effectively achieve the exact same thing by referring to them as "Platform Fighters" and "Traditional Fighters". These terms literally only cropped into existence within the last decade. The only reason people play along is because everyone likes Smash and even suggesting it's not a fighting game is like kicking a hornets nest.
So nowadays that's my measuring stick for a content creator's integrity. If they can't get basic details like that right, I know there are going to be other misconceptions throughout the video.
@@Impalingthornwhy isn’t smash a fighting game?
@@Reallyjoyboyfrdont bother, i say dont trust peeps who say smash isnt a fighting game, saying its a brawler aint even a good deterrent, brawlings fighting
Dont talk to peeps who say it, itll prolly save you head aches
@@HELLRAISER02 you’re 100% right thank you
@@HELLRAISER02 cope
It reminds me of a lot of the problems that dbfz goes through. Extremely high combo damage in the majority of situations and a wealth of powerful defensive options with skewed risk reward lead to a homogenized cast that focus on avoiding getting hit as much as possible.
Don’t forget dogshit mechanics, superdash imo is the worst mechanic in fighting game history, I’d rather have UMVC3 X factor than a 6 frame, homing, clashable with normals, ki blast invul fuck neutral button
You don't want to get hit in tag 2. If you played it in it's prime it was something wild. Best Tekken to date
? It's the opposite of everything you said, lol. DBFZ is very low damage, has weak defensive options, and is extremely rush down. The cast does play similarly because it's Dragon Ball, all the characters fight the same in the anime too. Can't exactly just make up new moves that aren't in the show.
@aaronsiegfried7891 the fact that you just said that dbfz has low dmg and weak defensive options speaks to your understanding moreso lack of understanding of the game.
Dbfz in its current state is characterized by its powerful defensive options, defensive neutral based screen control, and highest the dmg has been across the board since double supers.
@@steponmeplease6217 idk, it has its fair share of problems also
"It's floatable backroll ground hitting relaunching tech-catching unblockable big dick Tekken Oki" Oh god.
Don't let Speedkicks see this video.
Who
@@tatmanmyownbossdannydraco sf6 player
As someone that started late in the lifespan of tag 2 in 2016 and played Tekken 7 until this day I'm not one of the Tekken 7 people who think they do but they don't and I'll give my 2 cents.
When it comes to movement, Knee also said the movement in tag 2 but he also says that homing moves should be removed. I believe an inbetween of the movement of tekken 7 and tag 2 would be the best but I still vastly prefer tag 2s movement system. The Tekken 7 system movement makes the game almost feel turn based.
You're also correct that there's a lot of stuff you have to memorize with matchups in tag 2 but you fail to mention that the consequence of for example pressing into a string that hasn't finished yet is usually a knockdown where the opponent gets a grounded hit whereas in Tekken 7 almost everything is a counterhit launcher.
In terms of the oki system you say that the oki system in tag 2 was way more big dick but I'd argue that the tag 2 refloating is less obnoxious than the Tekken 7 oki system. If we use Kazuya as an example, his oki options are obviously his strong mixup but if the opponent stays grounded he will simply take a grounded hit and be out of the situation. Kazuya has to use his stomp to get good grounded damage but that again gives up his oki situation. In Tekken 7 if you stay grounded he will ff4 you and flip you over into an even worse situation and start the "vortex" all over again.
Poking in Tekken 7 is in many ways worse than in tag 2. You can't open up your opponent with the nerfed throws and the balance of lows has been thrown out the window. Something like a stature kick is relatively slow low with no crushing. The trade-off is that the move is plus on hit and only -12 on block. However, you can simply low parry the low and with the screw mechanic and the fact that characters have their wall travel massively buffed over tag 2 makes it so you almost always reach the wall and get a massive combo from parrying a -12 low. Meanwhile in tag 2 -12 lows were way better for opening up turtles as low parry used up your bound immediately reducing combo dmg and wall travel.
You show JDCR from 2018 saying he found Tekken 7 better but honestly I think a lot of the fun he had from Tekken 7 at that time was him traveling and winning all the tournaments playing for echo fox. He shortly after that quit for a year and he never really found the same passion for Tekken it seems, and this is a person that was able to play through the entire lifespan of many of the prior tekken games. And that's not only JDCR but a lot of the other old Tekken legends. Tekken 7 is simply boring in how limiting it is to the player.
Lastly this wasn't mentioned in the video but the amount of soul in tag 2 is much higher than in Tekken 7. The character endings being really creative and fun compared to Tekken 7s (Look up Dragunov and Lars ending). The characters have special win poses with how they interact in the story. The rage system functioned based on how much the characters liked each other in the lore. Heihachi drinks a serum that makes him young etc.
Yeah it was really bugging me how grabs were never brought up or how Tekken 7 is also a game where many people are constantly fishing for a launcher to eat huge chunks of your life bar because you just can’t escape your opponent with it’s anemic sidesteps. Homing buttons being added and subsequently almost invalidated in 7 *was* brought up but it was almost as quickly sprinted past despite being a huge issue people have.
While withholding such information does make an argument seem more valid at first glance, seeing the full faults of both and acknowledging just how big they are for both sides does seem more honest.
@@ShirattoNot only that but with the nerf of movement, new characters like Leroy have fast, mid, homing and SAFE on block tracking moves. So I cant move and can also be locked down? Overkill
@@Shirattowell it's about Tag 2 not T7...
@@FireTrainer92 But it is a video that presents that Tag 2 is inferior to T7
@@Shiratto actually, it presents tag 2 as not the solution to t7 unless your problem with t7 is that it isn't defensive enough
it's p. direct about how this is a response to the idea that tag 2 is an lightning fast, offense-heavy game thanks to its movement and insane combo potential, when the reality is that high damage countered by powerful defensive tools results in the exact opposite. it's not really about "t7 better" as much as it is "tag 2 isn't the game it sounds like," and he fully admits that tag 2 is still something some people can adore ... he's just very much not among 'em, and he doesn't imagine most people sick of t7 are, either
Hey, one of those Tekken 7 players who has picked up Tag 2 in the last year. Im basically who you're talking to. Despite each and every issue you describe, I still think Tekken Tag 2 is the more fun game between it and Tekken 7. I love Tekken 7, but the inability to sidestep practically anything really grinds my gears. Even with all its death combos, and other jank, Tag 2 is just more fun to play. Completely subjective, but I see some people here who agree.
Lo es tag 2 simplemente murio enterrado bajo Streetfighter 4 y Marvel vs Capcom
El contenido de tag 2 brutal pero el mundo estaba comiendo de la mano de Capcom en ese tiempo
Rubbish? Mate, you're killing the editing on this vid. Actual props and like.
yeah first video of this guy and i’ve subbed off the editing and art style alone.
great commentary was a nice bonus too.
Yeah lol the editing is incredibly high effort. Video was interestingly fun all throughout
His name fits him
British (derogatory)
Real nice intro on this one.
I have a lot of fondness for Tag 2 being my first Tekken, and for being a deranged fanservice game full of flavor. It may get dull after a while, but that's never gonna' be my experience! Wii U port all the way, baby!
_T W E N T Y - F O O T T A L L E L E C T R I C_
This video went far beyond just being a healthy critique of Tag 2, you’ve done so much meta analysis of Tekken as a fighting game conceptually, this is phenomenal, you deserve the success that’s likely to come as your quality is unreal.
This may be why I have always struggled to pick a team for team based fighting games. It often feels to me like rather than building a team combination that has unique strengths and weaknesses I am just trying to make a team with as few weaknesses as possible.
True
Play who you like. Get bodied by top tier. Make a decision are you going to join them on the dark side or fight the good fight in low to mid tier 🫡
@@WeaponExX i genuinely thought most people just played characters they liked lol all my mains across the board are damn near the same archetypes
That's an interesting take, but that's by no means a factual statement. Yes, you try to cover your weaknesses in a team based game, and that may be the primary purpose that SOME people try to build their team around. (These same people may pick an all rounder character in 1v1 games since they value a lack of weakness more than having an obvious strength).
But team building for a lot of people is trying to synergise for certain gameplan. For instance, in DBFZ, my team's purpose was to build up my Adult Gohan and have him gain levels, then when he had levelled all the way to level 7, I'd basically have a boss character. I used Kid Buu and Goku to achieve this due to their assists.
@@WeaponExXThis statement makes no sense to me. Yeah there were characters that were stronger than other in the movelist. But good movement mitigated most of those weaknesses
Out of everything in this video I disagree with, the two takes I was most confused by were around 42:30 when you described Tag 2 as walking around back and forth and seeing who gets bored first and saying Tag 2 has a slower game pace around the 8:20 mark.
When you talk about waiting for someone to get bored so the person who doesnt get bored is able to land a tactical nuke, that is literally Tekken 7. Tekken 7 doesnt promote interaction because every character has a minefield of counterhit launchers and pretty much everyone can get you to the wall for half your health. Since Tekken 5, the game has been two touch + change (2 combos + some pokes) to KO your opponent so I wont focus on that too much. In Tekken 7, because your defensive options are so much weaker, it makes people not want to interact. Many Tekken 7 pros (PhiDX had a recent tweet about this and I've had convos with him about this) say that a lot of times doing nothing is optimal gameplay because of how many CH launchers are in the game and the fact that you can get full combos off of low parries when they would instantly bound in Tag 2 so you lost a lot less health. Knee's tier list also reflects less interaction as most of the characters in his top 5 (especially his PS4 top 5 which is different from his PC top 5) such as Claudio or Noctis are able to put out large high coverage moves which is how a lot of T7 is played. Lastly, rage arts also force you to stop interacting because now if you try and take your plus frames you can die so you are hesitant to take your advantage so typically you just want to wait until they spend it to start interacting.
Compare this with Tag 2 which promotes interaction. You win in Tag 2 by getting up in someones grill and whooping them. If you try to play how you want to play Tekken 7 (run away and throw out high coverage moves) you will very likely have a hard time bc Tag 2 is just a different game made to be played differently. Poking is essential and strong in Tag 2, you just have less high coverage moves which promotes more interaction and making defensive reads. Tag 2 I always found to be played at a quicker pace bc you have to interact. Due to your defensive options being so strong, you're less worried about opening yourself up to something. The video displays Bryan being able to step while he's -9 but the video doesnt show counter play to that or how continuing pressure and taking your plus frames becomes a place where you can skill gap people. If the Kazuya delays his timing, he can hit Bryan. As someone who's been absolutely washed by ex pro Tag 2 players or other players who were just significantly better (RayBoneKilla, Crowder, etc.) I found one of the places they really demonstrated being a better player was in how they continued their offense. If you're playing against someone good, their offense feels so oppressive. It feels like you cant do anything right. Yet when those good players are on the other end of the situation, they're able to make the right defensive choices. Thats the beauty of the game to me.
Side note: you show a tweet from Kane from February 2018 saying JDCR thought T5DR & Tag 2 were boring while T7 was better balanced and more interesting and I just wanted to highlight that Tekken 7 in February 2018 is *very* different than Tekken 7 in August of 2023.
You're allowed to like and enjoy Tekken 7 more than Tag 2. Nothing wrong with that. The video objectively was clearly made with a lot of effort and was well edited. I just wanted to respectfully push back on a couple things said in the video and potentially offer a different perspective as a Tag 2 enjoyer. Cheers!
You woke up and chose to speak facts
i aint reading all that
Totally agree! And it's obvious JDCR does not care for T7 that much anymore so including that tweet is pretty amusing. Like yeah you can say Tag 2 was homogenized with the combo system, but Tekken 7 was homogenized in the same way buffing wall carry for the past 7+ years consistently and painting over character's unique weaknesses (Giving Feng wall carry+damage, making lows safer+buffing damage, buffing punishment game for characters with weak punishment etc). A lot of the stuff he rags on Tag 2 for doing Tekken 7 does as well and dials it up to 11.
I ain't reading all dat shit
You don't need to find a minefield of CH launchers. All you need is capo b+1, 4.
I love a good fighting game video essay, but the effort you put into the animations and editing is seriously next level. Phenomenal work
I still vividly remember playing at our weeklies, whiffing a jab from half-screen against our resident Kazuya/Lars player, and just fucking dying. TTT2 was a frustrating game!
That's why the devs broke Lars kneecaps in Tekken 7. Those scumbags from the Tag 2 days deserved it, those meta pieces of sh×t! 😂
What a bunch of crybabies.
Why did you jab at half screen?
@@HellCat_Kenny I wasn't very good at Tekken then.
@@HellCat_Kennyprobably to buffer?
43:45
Number one at winning is Leroy on release. His gameplan is literally walk forward to range 0 and apply low-mid natural hit poke into stance from which he has: auto low parry, safe mid-parry, the same low-mid poke, low CH launcher to catch jabs and going into different stance for another round of mixups on hit, and mid poke that is -7 on block and perfect setup for safe mid parry.
If you dare to sidestep it, he can do tracking hellsweep db4,1+2, or clipping to both sides hit-confirmable mid knockdown df3+4,1+2. And he also has universal parry that beats weapons, knees, elbows, unblockables, rage arts, armor, and lets him break all the grabs.
All you can do in this situation is just guess. If you start to guess too much, Leroy player is bored and plugs you from online. And if you are at the tournament, at the point when you learn his flowcharts the game is already over and Leroy already took 1st place. Sounds fun, isn't it?
Now your right about Leroy but there is also a line that shouldn't be crossed with overly strong aggression. Leroy was busted because of corporate greed like most dlc characters now a days. But using a dlc character to argue his point about wanting to see who is the best at winning in terms of player strength not character strength sounds like a gotcha point that someone from reddit or Twitter thinks of. You could make a better argument.
@@ThusSpokeDrDoctor
>wanting to see who is the best at winning in terms of player strength not character strength
>whole video talks about sidesteps, character-specific ability that is hard coded to be worse for some characters and worse from game to game
The Tag Assault sound is too addicting to keep myself away from Tag 2.
tekken 7 has the most homogenized damage, wall carry and wall combos in the entire series so i dont really understand your argument there. i also find your argument about being able to step everything at -9 in ttt2 to be disingenuous because to the moves you chose to test against and the fact that there is straight forward counter-play. the effectiveness of side stepping expands the breadth of the close range game and the richness of the mind games in tekken, it doesn't diminish them
i dont particularly like tag 2, but your thesis about movement is essentially that you don't like tekken. every other major 3D fighting game series is better suited to close range mind games than tekken. other series like virtua fighter, soul calibur and doa are built from the ground up to have rich close range interactions and mind games. in tekken, much of the close range game boils down to 50/50's (which are fine), knowledge checks, which weaker movement exacerbates, low-risk movement, and ate-waza/abare mind games, which are arguably some of the richest close range mind games in tekken and are given more prevalence with strong lateral movement. either the systems, options, or option selects in other series are a lot more suited for close range slug fests and the frame data of those games are more meticulously designed and impactful for this purpose as well, particularly in virtua fighter, and thus tekken's close range game is comparatively simple when measured against those series. a larger percentage of a round in those series is spent close range, and for good reason, but i contend that tekken really suffers when namco tries to forcibly increase the proportion of the match spent at this range to an unreasonable extent (tekken 4, 7, 8).
the thing that defines tekken and sets it apart within the sub-category of 3D fighting games is its strong, low risk movement (outside of sc2, which has uniquely low risk *lateral* movement specifically). the movement should be oppressive and game warping because its fun and unique. otherwise, you're playing a poor man's doa (see tekken 8, which also happens to be lifting a 25+ year old mechanic from that series). another aspect is that with strong movement players are equipped with universal punishment tools that diminish the need to cultivate an encyclopedic knowledge of frame data and interruptible strings just to stop being exploited by knowledge checks. one of the most *universal complaints* about tekken 7 among both casual and tournament players is the *unprecedented requirement for memorizing technical information* , because movement is almost never there to save you from offense. strong movement actually makes the game a better experience for newer players. additionally, realigning the axis to continue your offense but opening yourself up to abare is a rich mind game that you yourself shed light on. you dont even have to get hit when you do this thanks to step guard, you just risk your opponent stealing their turn. its a simple but rich interaction reminiscent of something in virtua fighter, and it does not require an abundant wealth of technical information, yet you seem to sweep it under the rug even though it seems to be the sort of situation that aligns with your value system. tag 2's movement doesn't even approach the strength of tekken 5's, which to this day is placed on the highest pedestal out of the entire series. weak movement incentivizes players to converge their playstyles towards pressure and mixups. as far as homogenized, monolithic playstyles are concerned, you should prepare yourself for tekken 8 with its pitiful backdash. i understand that tekken is really the only relevant title in the 3D fighting game landscape at the moment, and low risk defensive movement isnt to your taste, but I would honestly contend that tekken as a whole isnt really your series and you would probably prefer other 3D titles that are actually built around supporting balanced, free-form playstyles, which is something that tekken has not and will never achieve. the ability to cancel tekken's sidestep, granting evasiveness at almost zero cost, is inherently geared towards defense and is seemingly antithetical to your values. the same goes for blocking while backdashing, and cancelling backdashes into each other. these are series defining mechanics and they point towards a system you seem ideologically disposed against. overall, tekken (usually) represents a special node on the 3D fighting game spectrum that (usually) champions a uniquely defensive playstyle and unusually low risk movement. the first good game in the series was founded on these principles, and you're arguing for a reduction in the diversity of the 3D fighting game ecosystem.
there's a reason virtually every notable korean player outside of JDCR, as well as other players like SpeedKicks, spoke out against tekken 7's movement years ago. knee has stated on record that he thinks tekken 7 is too shallow due to weak lateral movement. you have unfortunately gotten your way with the series, but I'm happy that at least within the cultural consciousness your opinion will remain the minority view.
*Mic drop*
you could say almost the exact same things about melee, and that game's fucking awesome.
insane degree of movement, very risk averse, wait and see kind of gameplay at the highest level, zero to deaths left and right, ridiculous defensive options, etc....
if that makes a game boring, i don't wanna be excited
Tekken dark resurrection is the series' equivalent to melee. Tag 2 is quite different from melee
TTT2 is more of the equivalent of a surface level Project M than a SSBM
People say Tekkem Tag 2 is slower than 7? How? I'd say it feels faster.
This was a very interesting and thought provoking video.
It definitely made me reconsider my stance on movement in TT2 compared to its successors.
I especially see TT2 in a different light
Aye, I have more respect for TTT2 now than I did before. Bless up
Both the insight and the effort you put into these are fabulous. I've never even played a Tekken and I was enthralled.
I know its not a main point of the vid but I greatly enjoy mirror matches because I feel it gives me the chance to interface my approach to a character with someone else's.
I feel like in Tekken, different players are essentially playing their own version of the character for the most part. Its not really as homogenized as say OW. People tend to staple their own stuff and go for certain moves in a fashion distinct to them.
I agree so much. As a king player seeing what other set up people use and what throws they like is super fun. A lot of kind players I fight never use stomach bash or lay off. So it fun to see them pick up on some of my tricks and implement them mid match.
The difference is when its not Tekken with a huge ass move pool. Get a GGstrive mirror and you are doing the EXACT same neutral/combos/oki there are very ridged interactions. I think at high level there is definitely alot of this even in Tekken but being Mid-Low tier players gives a ton of room for interpretation of character.
Tekken Mirror Matches are especially meaty for this reason, whereas other games' characters really having strong basic bread-and-butter stuff makes this far *less* interesting in many of THOSE titles.
So TL;DR -
1. Tag Assault averages out every character's combo DPS and routing, into something thats higher than Tekken 7's combo DPS
2. Relative to Tekken 7, pokes do less DPS compared to combos
3. Sidestep in Tag 2 is so good that it can be used to get out of even heavy frame disadvantage, so pokes cant lock people down anymore
4. Since sidestep beats any kind of frame disadvantage and combos do more DPS than pokes, everyone is incentivized to just constantly step guard and whiff punish with launchers
4. Tag Crash centralizes okizeme around baiting it and nothing else, since its so good at beating everything else
5. And therefore every character is incentivized to do generally the same thing in neutral, combos, and oki; ofc neutring character diversity
3) is complete and utter ... well, rubbish., as is 5). I've tested sidestep-blocking in TTT2 and the idea that you can neutralise everything by sidestep-blocking even at -9 is bollocks. 5) will strike anyone who's actually watched TTT2 tournament footage as unadjacent to the reality of how matches played out. There are a wide variety of play styles represented, including at the very highest levels.
1. True. The average TA did 80-83 damage to a 180 lifebar, in T7 we can say the average is 60-62 on a 170 lifebar (discounting walls). Always remember though, that TTT2 had recoverable health. So if a combo did 80 damage, around 20 points of that will become recoverable.
2. Cannot confirm. I'm not sure why combo damage and pokes are relatable here, but will take uploader's word for it.
3. False. Many characters can utilize + frames to catch stepping. But not all. So that disproves 6.
4. False. Punishment from movement is critical, but if that's the most you focus on, you're going to lose a lot. You're whiff punish from movement, has to be ready to go at all times, but how is that different from T7. Many players back then even said SS block was too strong, but this was early in the game and over time, pokes were used to supplement good movement.
5*. No lol. This one is comically exaggerated and I have to wonder how much time the uploader spent with TTT2.
6*. False. Movement has to be utilized with character strengths and weaknesses in mind. There are a few, one size fits all aspects (like the EWGF example in the video) but it's not remotely as 'homogeneous' as the uploader stresses. I will say that staple combo routes are pretty similar throughout, but no more than T7. Even then TTT2 had combo routes for characters that emphasize oki, unlike T7. Speaking of, oki situations are NOT the same for all characters. Tbh labbing character oki was kind of a headache because of all the options available.
At the end of the day, saying TTT2s movement is too strong to the point of detriment, is one of the weirdest takes I've come across. It's an interesting notion, but the gameplay doesn't become as routine as the uploader is suggesting.
You basically made this video at the perfect time with the advent of Tekken 8, a time where we should be careful what we ask for from the previous Tekken games while also hoping we do get something different from Tekken 7. Editing is God-like, liked and will share to my mates.
I still prefer Tag 2 rather than any other Tekken game. It was a true love letter to Tekken fans, pure fan service. To me, the actual flaws that the game had was damage balancing (in a time where balance patches weren't as common as today, plus most arcade cabinets didn't have online patching yet) and the awful netcode. The rest was perfect, from the music to the stages, the insane creativity that combos allowed, the movement and the roster.
It was a defensive game? To me, it's even stranger that no mention was made to the TRUE throw game at all. Your opponent blocks or sidestep blocks all the time? Throw the s**t out of them. Throws were a true mixup and the break window was hella tight. Repeat after me: throw the s**t out of them. That's why you see so many throws in Tag 2 tournaments back in the day.
You probably didn't realize this because normal throws are nonexistent in T7, as they can be broken with both punch buttons and the break window was extended to oblivion. That leaves most characters with only command throws to rely on, which means most players will just always input 1+2 to break them because 95% of the time it's the correct option (only characters like King or Armor King can truly mix you up with throws in T7).
Speaking as a player that is by no means world class, but has around 800 hours in Tekken 7 and has competed in a few locals, I played the recent Tekken 8 CNT and LOVED the sideways movement.
I understand what you're speaking about with regards to strong side steps making things like step guard stronger, but it feels REAL bad to play Tekken 7 and try side stepping/walking the opponent, only to get clipped by a move that doesn't have tracking properties. It immediately felt so much better in Tekken 8 to be able to more easily escape my opponent's suffocating offence by using the stronger sideways movement.
I'm not sure what the implication will be on the game's meta, but I just know that it FEELS better to me.
playing a new system always feels good until people find a way to break it
@@CErra310 I mean, what do you mean by "break" it?
Nothing changes the fact that I hate getting clipped by moves in T7 because the side step is so bad.
@@Cezkarma every tekken where the movement is over- instead of undertuned has some bullshit related to side- or backhitting your opponent. there's an example in this video every 2 minutes or so
@@CErra310 would you care to provide some examples from actual high level play, instead of a video whose purpose it is to shine strong movement in a bad light?
Or actually address my comment about disliking getting clipped by non-tracking moves in Tekken 7 since the movement is so bad?
@@Cezkarma No I won't, because the problem is so obviously apparent that if you're unwilling to do 2 seconds of googling to verify that I'm not making something up it's clear you're not asking in good faith and you won't accept whatever response I could provide
As someone whose first serious Tekken was 7, my experience was pretty much the opposite. Any of the OG Tekken players I ever talked to about Tag 2 would rather play 7 for the rest of time than be forced back to Tag 2.
Anywho, the changes to movement in 8 so far seem interesting, andhopefully ends up being good, if only to balance out the gonzo aggression.
I started with Tag 2, the movement was definitely fun, and the combos were too.
I will say I much prefer Tekken 7 but a thing I don't like is how homogenous the characters are (as opposed to the video poster thinking Tag 2 is homogenous). Every character has a super move that covers all options, every update eliminates weaknesses and gives characters punishments they never use to have, and a few other things. Also don't like how movement is slower whilst attacking options got buffed.
A no brain player who only learns their buttons achieve far higher ranks in Tekken 7 than Tag 2, players sooner realise movement and defensive plays are the key to reaching higher ranks.
Man, Tag 2 deserves better.
37:00 Chess absolutely does not favor defensive and reactive play even on the highest level. Defensive positions that are technically drawn, will often be lost due to lack of direction and are considered to be the hardest to play. GMs often will favor the side with initiative over material, and coming to terms with the strength of initiative is one of the first steps to actually getting good.
The opening is by far and away more solved the better you are and less solved the worse. Some opening lines are referred to as GM draws, being that they are lines drawn purely from the opening theory.
Symmetrical positions are not present in the majority of openings and the moves often have extremely practical reasons for being favored in the opening phase. This is because White having the first move brings an inherent advantage that means black will always be slightly worse in a perfectly symmetrical position due to the tempo loss. Please just learn the game and you will fully understand.
Yeah between this and the very confusing and inaccurate intro with melee and brawl I don't think the guy has a particularly good understanding of most of these games competitively.
@@sevennights6377ya love the responses to the dvck riding while ignoring someone calling out the fact that he is comparing tekken to games he seems to not play or at least play far below a serious beginner level.
43:50
That's a tweet from 2018. Tekken 7 was a _very_ different game back then and I think it's disingenuous to use that as a zinger
Minor correction: brawl does have true combos, but the characters with the most numerous and the most consistent are high and top tier. Also, there's a lot of tech in the game, but the problem was shielding which was incredibly powerful and most moves were unsafe and easy shield grabbed. Coupled with spot dodges that went into the Z axis meant you couldn't reach certain characters (like Dedede) who was vulnerable for like 2 or 3 frames even after invincibility wore off.
Brawl was a deeply flawed game, but there was a lot of magic stored deep underneath it that was unfortunately covered by all of the mess that was its mechanics.
at least it had a decent adventure mode tho
@@ArjunTheRageGuy its a bit underrated ngl
@@James-pb8xu yeah but at least it had legit platforming sections that newer smash titles lack nowadays for some reason, that'll include smash ultimate
Brawl with some decent hitstun would be quite fun tbh
Kinda like 64 but with an air dodge etc
Phenomenal writing, analysis and presentation. Great vid all around.
it's literally the best tekken game sym
I knew movement in Tag 2 was good but not 5.0/DR good but +9 still being step guardable is insane. It makes me reconsider why they added the ballerina stun which is like +15/16G , as its both a wall splat indicator AND itll pin the opponent onto that axis 😂
It might actually be better. DR has a better backdash, but Tag1 backdash is insane.
+9 isn't step-guardable in TTT2.
@@davidparry531032:19
you cant step guard at +9 in any tekken,a plus +6 or +7 is possible to step guard,either way still the problem never was movement itself.
#makemovementgreatagain
@@konodioda720932:20
When you think you want to move but you actually want to stay where you are
Wow I had to read that twice. That was actually pretty profound
The amount of high quality videos about 7 yr old and 10+ yr old game is CRAZY. Good stuff mayne :--))
i still prefer defensive options and defensive play but this video definitely gave me something to chew on and think about when it comes to the other side of the argument. awesome job as always rubbish!
I think more movement options and more rewarding movement should definitely be in more fighting games (see Street Fighter 6's Drive system in giving players more approach tools) but there's a balance. If you're able to punish attacks *on hit*, that feels like it's too much.
Play this at 1.25 speed to get normal speaking speed
first of all, nice script and nice production. Great video overall. This pretty much encapsulates what i found when i did my own "i wonder if the previous tekkens have what I yearn for" journey. Thankfully, I had been shown the consequences of the super high damage combos, and how tag crash plays out most often (though its use in neutral is at least a little cool). T6 hit much closer to what I found myself wanting out of tekken, with one major caveat:
I think you actually undersell the implications of microstepping by sticking to step-guard. Microstep-guard being so good makes for a lame game, but microstep into *attack* being what it is in T6 and TTT2 makes for something basically broken at its core. Anything can be death for no reason at any point in time. Still, with a game less combo-heavy and more aggressive, and at my admittedly middling level of play using just transferable skills and knowledge, T6 was amazing.
In the end, I came away thinking t7's step and backdash really only needed a mild buff, only needing 2 frames to step a jab is far too lenient, and 7's 7 is far too strict. But the middleground is there waiting, and the key was really to make things more consistent. Turning down the velocity curve for sidesteps didn't just nerf them in 7, it exposed the game's (or its UE port's) wonky hitboxes & tracking. My #1 ask for t8 was redone animations and systems from the ground up in UE, with that result in mind. Since that happened, I hope it pans out.
Think you want to play Tag 2? Watch old avoiding the puddle/aris videos from that time to see how peaceful it was
It was surely a time.
Incredible presentation! I don't think people understand how much work went into this video.
I am on my lunch break. I check my subscriptions. A new Rubbish video.
And it is 45 minutes.
Today is a good day.
Great video! Will return to rewatch in in a week or two for checking the comment section.
Agree with the general premise that defensive tilt can harm amount of viable play options. Offensive tilt can do the same. We'll see how t8 turns out.
Woah I thought this was only like a 15 minute video when it ended only to see 44 minutes went by. Truely captivating stuff dude!
Great vid, great editing, interesting take. Tekken Tag 2 was the dopest one for me and I've been playing Tekken since the OG on PSX. I only barely dipped my toe into tournament meetups and mostly kept it to a small group of lads. Since it was never that deep for me, I never optimised the fun out of the games so would never reach this conclusion. All (fighting) games boil down to what's the strongest/best/most efficient thing I can do at any given moment, if you let them become that. TTT2 is straight heat and I want to play it again on my PS5.
30:41 I look forward to hear your analysis on Tekken 8 compared to Tekken 7, especially after hearing that T8 has a much stronger sidestep
This content is extremely well put together.
I noticed Tekken has one of the most dedicated community I ever seen.
been playing tekken since t3, tag 2 is easily my favorite in the series, i think its the best iteration of Tekken we have today.
Dude, I love the style and production here. Awesome work
Love the 3d-printer lookin style. I love seeing all the styles you go for in your videos.
Tag 2 was my first tekken, MY tekken, and i absolutely loved it
11:30 best explanation of the two different systems ive ever heard. Thank you.
Amazing video dude! Hope you'll be doing more Tekken related videos in the future!
If theres any game that this reminds me of, it's another smash title, being smash ultimate.
Remember back when that game was in its first trailers, and they showed the game had a "big new focus on speed", and they did that by removing landing lag on arial attacks?
Supposedly this would increasing the pace of the game and combo opportunity, since Melee had a similar system to remove landing lag on such attacks.
Another similar core change is that they made it so you can just do certain attacks out of your shield much faster. Specifically, your Up-smash and up-specials. You could also do this in the previous games, but it had some execution behind it since you had to jump first. They just made it free, which makes it so much easier to tell how much these character movesets (that have barely meaningfully changed since the N64 game), were not designed with this mechanic in mind.
Another change to the core system that also made the game ""faster"" is one called "Spotdodge Cancelling", which is just that you can cancel the endlag a spotdodge into an attack. Making bad spotdodges harder to punish. Which is an awful mechanic, and unlike the other ones I'm mentioning, I genuinely can't see how they didn't notice how bad of a mechanic that is during development.
Thing is, these changes homogenize the game by making spamming and mashing much easier to get away with, regardless of whether or not that meshes with your playstyle
As a result, Ultimate, despite advertising having a massive roster, essentially has two fucking playstyles for most of its cast:
It's either a game where you mash a ton and can get away with it due to universal changes, or you're playing a projectile zoner (the universal mechanics make it harder for the opponent to actually punish you once you're within close range).
You're either 100% mashing or 100% zoning, and for a lot of the cast there's no in-between.
It's basically a game that tries to be aggressive like Melee, but doesn't have the good movement to justify the aggression since they didn't actually give you much better movement tools, rather they just made everybody run faster. Also, you stick to platforms in Ultimate and have to put in effort to run off them, which hurts movement a ton.
But if Ultimate wants to be neutral based, and focus on defensive play and how you get out of disadvantage, it's not actually committing to that either since it keeps hurting neutral by removing endlag on your everything. Say what you will about Brawl and Smash 4, but at least they actually stuck to their vision and committed to having an identity, rather than being like Ultimate which tries to have the best of both worlds and instead has the worst.
Just like tag 2, it's a game made on the foundation of a bunch of changes that SOUND like they'd be a good idea, but in reality it makes for a very samey and boring multiplayer game. Despite advertising itself with a massive roster and aggressive gameplay, both turn out to be very homogenous.
Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot everybody complains about Ult because they hate the DLC too. I kinda forgot that existed cause the issues go way deeper than just "steve bad" lmao.
Outside of some whack RNG + poor implementation of rage, I really enjoyed Smash 4 neutral
Certain match-ups are really entertaining to watch at high level too
Cool video and good points, but I still take better sidestep and backdashes over moving in quicksand like T7.
The argument about Kazuya is nice, but he's one of the character that has his right side weakness that standout the most, try showing hundreds of others situations of a dozen character where a move that wouldn't hit you in previous games, but miraculously hit you in T7. One good example is, try sidesteping Julia FF1 in T7
You couldn't reliably SS that in any game tbh.
@@FireTrainer92 still possible though
Your knowledge and editing skills are, as always, amazing! Really hope you become the premier fighting game video essayist
All in all, I will one day wait for a Tekken Tag Tournament 3. Cuz, let's be real; some Tekken characters become franchise staples, but others become one-and-done. This is your chance to be reunited with the cast, and even if the mechanics require balancing to the point where many may be bored, I'm all for it.
JDCR's comment at the end makes me curious to see a vid like this on T5DR, or at least learning more about it. I played it casually but never competitively or more than just mashing, but its always hailed as one of, if not the best, Tekken game (or is it T5? I honestly don't know what the difference between the 2 is).
Either way, an amazing vid with some of the best editing I've ever seen, and also makes me reconsider my look on Tag 2 since I've been playing more recently. It's also even making me reconsider my thoughts on T8 since everything that game seems to show I dislike in theory, what with all the nerfed defensive options. But at the same time it might end up making for a more engaging game overall.
Certainly not vanilla Tekken 5. Tekken 5DR fixed some glaring balancing issues that vanilla T5 had
"You probably think I'm going to look at this Tekken. Or this one."
me, who read the title of the video :
If Tag 2 was more like Tag 1 with minor adjustments (i.e. the inclusion of bound), it wouldn't have been this much of a menace to balance.
Tag assault is cool and all, but it was waaay overused and the impact was detrimental enough to be the staple for every combo executed.
That being said, I still think Tag 2 is much superior over Tekken 7 in regards to system, as Tag 2 was the perfected version of what Tekken 6 introduced: bounds, restricted but flexible movement and overall nerfed damage with a slower pace (compared to 5).
If Tag 2 didn't have tag assualts and had an official PC port, this game would've been bigger than what Tekken 7 is today.
You are getting a negative reaction from tag 2 lovers and that's fair. Alot of the issues with the game you brought up are the things people who love tag 2 do not see as issues. If anything to them that is what makes the game great. It's understandable but it did annoy me that alot of those players defenses basically boiled down to nuh uh or you are oversimplifying it, completely ignoring your argument. With that said I agree. As someone who has played tekken for a long time and started with tag 2 all those mentioned turned the game into a game about launchers and I did not enjoy it especially after playing it for over a year. Players made the argument that I wasn’t as good at the game then and that was true but even after going back to the game multiple times as a more seasoned tekken player my negative opinion has not changed. You did a great job demonstrating why that is. There are other things you could have mentioned like Tag 2's clone characters and you could have gone into more detail about how rage affects combo damage but all in all great video.
I'd rather deal with tag 2 bs than have a dumbed down system either way I think 5dr is probably better but the complexity of tag 2 really let Tekken masters shine in their knowledge and play I am basically in speedkicks camp
So like, 20 backwashes until someone makes 1 mistake is peak gameplay to you?
@@user-uv6qu3wb5dyou fried your brain from too much Tekken 7
The editing on this is actually amazing. Insane you don't have more subscribers!
Rubbish needs to start making editing tutorials for us noobs
I feel like I'm very fortunate to have experienced ttg2 when I was just beginning to learn how to play well. I learned how to move and how to punish aggressiveness and carried that with me into tekken 7. It was infuriating and glorious all at the same time and I loved it. THEN, I got good at tekken as a whole. Came back from 3 to 7 and then back to tt2 and it was really REALLY bad lmao. I love tt2 but I like actually fighting in my fighting game.
Go watch PhiDX' video on the subject. He makes the interesting, if counter-intuitive, observation that the reduced movement of T7 has actually led to _fewer_ hitbox-hurtbox interactions in top-level play rather than more, as defensive players, anxious to avoid having to take a 50/50, will hang back and seek to engage as little as possible.
Tekken Tag 2 was such a masterpiece and a huge love letter to Tekken fans. It's the last Tekken I'll need.
Amazing video! looking forward to binging your content😌
Well made video, I liked it a lot
You did not convince me even a tiny bit, I actually think tag 2 is so much cooler now having watched this video. I'm gonna go play it
You absolutely killed it with the editing here, from the intro with the two friends about Smash, to combining Tag 2 footage with edited T7 stuff (and the edited/fake demostration of what-actually-is T7's risk mitigation before going ham with TTT2's demostration) and how well you got to convey your points here. Even though I do feel like Tekken was already a lot reliant on reactive play over active play (aside from poking and throws, sometimes trying to poke an expert at their game can get you up for a bad counter/launcher), it is crazy to see here that Tag 2 in particular was THE reaction check heavy game...and that the universal step guard mimics that despited Xiaoyu feint mechanic lol
Tag 2 favoured those players who were godly with their movement and side step timing that's why JDCR demolished everyone in this game .
Okay but what if we just have the Good movement from TT2 in T7 without all the other stuff from TT2.
As someone who never got into tekken i'm wishing there was a video like this explaining tekken 7 so i could have some idea of what's going on on screen
Great video!
Tekken Tag Tournament 2: Encourages defensive play.
Tekken 8: Encourages offensive play.
Let's see how this will play out.
Say what you like about Brawl but that was the smash game that got me into the series. That game was awesome and lasted me for so long.
Hey dude, if you fuck with Brawl, all the power to you. (Just don't invite me over to play)
5:56 "i can hear the tekken people salivating"
YES! Movement is a fine dish that we are missing for a good couple of years already.
I think of TTT2 as the party game of the tekken series
Unironically, the line who want to live forever is the most fun fgc mindset to have.
It's better having ttt2 movement than bad movement and forced 50/50s all the time.
not sure I agree but I do appreciate the good video and your viewpoint.
This video just solidified my thought that T6 is still more entertaining to watch, save for people picking top tiers, which ultimately always happen.
Lars and Bruce are ten million times more interesting than Leroy and Fahk
This is some peak Tekken documentary if i say so myself
SKill issue coping for 45 minutes
Starting with combo mechanics shows this video's hand of being a green rank think piece.
I had to give a like just for the editing alone.
people want to go back to tag 2 ? that's quite surprising tbh, i get that people want a game with a greater emphasis on movement and neutral which T7 really lacks in. but surely these people would go to something like T3 (now with rollback) or tag 1 for that. my issues with T7 was a suffocating combo game. heavy wall meta, shit movement and lots of gimmicky knowledge checks. all of these things still exist in tag 2 compared to say t3 or tag 1 due to it's massive backdashes and side steps. it's like going "i miss when street fighter was a true fireball footsie game..... like 3rd strike"
holy cow this video was good. I though this was a leon massey video with a different voice at first lmao. nice job
My main experience of Tag 2 is watching Aris rage at it.
I forgot to think of some funny shit to put into this comment.
Me too. It happens.
This is a fucking amazing video, the graphics and animations are amazing and makes for a perfect video, great content, keep it up
Nice video. Tekken old head here and tag 2 is my favorite. I love the non biased approach to this and you definitely raised some points I’ve never considered before. I wouldn’t necessarily say that the core gameplay is even that much different from 7. You’re basically trading the “2 idiots 1 bored” analogy from tag2, to “who can wall carry better and corner fuck the opponent” in 7. The tail spin system (in my opinion) kills combo creativity since more often then not, your goal is to use whatever can wall your opponent then proceeding to pressure them as hard as you can, without letting them get up or use movement to take “their turn”. Look no further than how upset people were with Akuma, negan, Leroy etc. most of not all of their jank could be avoided by better movement. That’s just me tho. I love tekken, miss bound but 8 is doin g something different again so we’ll see how shit shakes out.
Recently I got interested in Tekken, and finding out that T7 wouldn't run on my pc, I picked up T6 and it is really fun, admittedly, after getting T6 the other thought is that maybe I should have gotten TT2 instead or in addition to it. Now that you described it like playing chess and being defense oriented, I absolutely will pick it up soon.
Good video bro, nice work.
Your editing and analysis is god tier
Are unbufferable moves really a good way to demonstrate tracking at specific frame advantage? Realistically you're very rarely really doing an electric or hellsweep "at +1", since unless your timing is frame perfect you're not taking full advantage of the frames. And the correct frame perfect timing is specific to each move's block/hitstun as well.
yes you do eletric at +1,if you have condition the opponent to respect you can be a nice option,hellsweep you need to kinda be nuts.
about timing,kazuya movelist is kinda small so you learn the timings very fast,if not,just buffer the F,when you see kazuya moving just do the rest of ewgf motion,and here we go eletrics.
if you gonna eletric after hit or block,you need that big frames or condition you opponent to not press because you can step he's offensive or 112 after.
Unpopular opinion. Brawl is a very fun game. Just not a very amazing competitive game.
Please dont dismiss it as a fun experience.
The pixelated editing is artistic asf, subbed
That tag 2 customization ost is lit
there are so many things wrong with doing a df2/ewgf/hellsweep "mixup" after frame advantage - it is absolutely not an issue that it always fails against step-blocking, that is how things should be
Just play 1 on 1 instead of Tag battle, I haven't checked but that was optional in part 1 so I presume this will also be available in part 2.
And just play offline, no lag or other issues.
I never liked online anyway, the constant waiting, cheap players and less control on the stages and characters you play.
Offline is way more fun, we all used to this for Tekken 1 to 6, so why do we act offline is not a thing anymore.
I prefer playing against the cpu.