Raising the Dead, Speaking in Tongues, & Bethel Church | Ep 246
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- čas přidán 3. 05. 2020
- Today we talk about a much-asked-about subject: continuationism vs. cessationism, which is a debate over whether or not the charismatic gifts of speaking in tongues, prophesying, and performing miracles are still available to the church today. Within this discussion, we will talk about Bethel Church and how its members' passionate emphasis on signs and wonders has led them to the theological place they are today.
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Show Link:
The Gospel Coalition article, "At What Price Awakening? Examining the Theology and Practice of the Bethel Movement:" bit.ly/2W07IhI
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I went to a meeting where Bill Johnson merely read scriptures pertaining to healing from Genesis through Revelation. Then he asked whoever believes this get up and pray over those in here that need healing. I had severe pain in my back after delivering my children my hips were not aligned properly but not sure if this caused the pain, I took pain killers and visited chiropractor 1x to 2x every week just to have moderate pain instead of completely debilitating pain for 4 years. Dr's were unable to help me so that is how I ended up at the chiropractor and with pain meds. Anyway, after the prayers over me, I left the church pain free and to this day 24 years later I'm still good even all my joints are great, I'm 56 years old now.
All GLORY to the Most High!!! 🔥❤️🔥
That is awesome , Praise be to God.. I believe you must have been sincerely asking God to heal you not the man and that is why you had complete prefect healing.
@@louonUTamen! I also believe that u trusted God to heal u not that man..
The only problem I see for cessationists whom I used to form a part of. Is that after you have multiple experiences with the Holy Spirit including now speaking in tongues is that you cannot go back to believing in cessationism. I received this gift, not in a pentecostal church, it was in my own kitchen table where I usually have my Bible devotionals. It is by far the weirdest but most beautiful experience for me to this day. No one else in my church speaks in tongues or at least they hide it like me. But when I'm praying I always pray in tongues as well as in my everyday tongue and all I do is weep while I speak it.
Great example, Thanks for sharing. When I first spoke in tongues I had the same reaction. Once you've experienced it, there's no going back.
I agree
Maybe you should find a church where you can more easily fit in. You shouldn’t feel ashamed or like you have to hide a gift from God! Plus God may want to use you in more gifts that the church you’re at is suppressing
That is so interesting. How does that work exactly? Can you call upon your gift? Does it come out like inspiration of itself? When speaking in tongues what do you mean? Are you babbling something you suppose is a language, is it like suddenly able to speak French?
I apologize if my questions sound rude, I am legitimately asking so I can understand the gift of tongues.
Thank you and God bless you!
Hindus speak in ecstatic tongues. Are they having an experience with the Holy Spirit as well? This is the problem with being led around by experiences and emotions rather than the solid foundation of scripture. There is no “prayer language” in scripture.
My mum told me the story of a Jew that came to Jesus through the speaking of tongues. He was apart of the 6 day war in Israel. His unit had a coded language that only those of that unit knew. A lady at my mother's church started to speak this language, she had no idea what she was saying but this Jew did. He said that she had spoken the code that those in his unit would say to each other when they were checking in. After this code, he said she told him that this was the last time God was going to call to him. That day he gave himself to the Lord and not 3 months later he died of a heart attack. It is not only this event but others that I've seen personally that have convinced me that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in action. That means however that we cannot let ourselves be gullible to those that try to deceive us. We must always test the spirits against the Word. Thank you Allie for cautioning us.
Serena Jacobs 🙌🏻🙌🏻
Thanks for sharing that. The gifts haven't expired, but faith has expired with some.
@@JewandGreek Yes exactly. I think people need to come to the middle, not extremely charismatic and not cessationism. If you go one way you can fall into deception and if you go the other you ignore actual scripture. In the church that I attend, the late Pastor (Pastor Philip Powell), was the treasurer for AOG churches and he left after they started doing things like the Toronto blessings and saying that you had to speak in tongues to be saved, as well as disagreements with Frank and Brian Houston. He didn't let that colour his view on the gifts of the Spirit, but it gave him discernment which he taught to his congregation. This is the position I think all Christians should hold to.
I know a person who knew a person who heard of a person who got a corpse to move it’s right leg 7 days after it was dead.... See.... We need to be open to the possibility of these miracles today JUST LIKE JESUS PERFORMED when He was presenting Himself as Messiah to the Jewish Nation.... Right?
People who do not “rightly divide” scripture as II Timothy 2:15 says and uses the Greek word “ORTHOTOMEO” (which means ‘straight cut’) KJV Translates as ‘rightly divides’ WILL NEVER SEE that God dealt differently at different times with different generations and that there are differences between JEWISH ISRAEL and the PAULINE GOSPEL to people today not under the Mosaic Law AT ALL.... Grace today is different from the grace of God in the ages before the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD was complete and no more scripture is being written today through visions or miracles or metaphysical mumbo jumbo of TV Prosperity Con Men/Women and GOD does NOT need to authenticate that Jesus is the promised Jewish Messiah through gifts, signs, miracles, raising the dead, curing lepers, restoring limbs or sight, or any other miraculous act REQUIRED of Messiah by OT scriptures and authenticated in Matt-John (Gospels about Jesus being messiah).... THE common thread thru the whole of scripture is about GOD revealing Himself and His character to the whole created world to GLORIFY Himself and Reveal Jesus, the 2nd PERSON of the trinity, that the one God that the Jews called Yahweh, brought to us as a little baby TO RECONCILE the entire human race to Himself that the WHOLE WORLD might BELIEVE and have LIFE ... ETERNAL LIFE... Without having any works of righteousness of the LAW KEEPING!.... even the law of tithing, circumcision, going to church, quite time, praying, baptism, Eucharist, mass, Wed Night Prayer Meeting, Thursday night visitation, or not French Kissing Before Marriage!!!!
I invite any healer today to accompany me to Salisbury, NC to the Vets with blown off legs from IED bombs in the VA hospital and by FAITH their limbs will be IMMEDIATELY restored just like JESUS healed while ministering in flesh till crucified, buried, resurrected, and ascended back to heaven. We Do Not Need Miracles, Signs, Wonders, Tongues, etc TODAY for authentication of who Jesus is... We have the Holy Spirit speaking through the completed REVELATION of the WRITTEN Down on printed paper BIBLE... If anyone wants to hear the voice of God, read the Bible out loud!
I met a woman in a Walmart who was totally blind in her right eye, since birth. She allowed me to place my hand over that eye, commanding blindness to be gone in the name of Jesus. Instantly, with only that simple prayer, her eyesight was immediately restored. Doesn't matter to me if you believe it or not, gifts of healing can and do still happen. If you are a cessationist, then it will not work for you, since that is your expectation. I have seen hundreds of miracles. Bible says these signs shall follow those that believe... lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Only believe!
Ok so can she still see through that eye? Also do you visit hospitals and heal? Just coach what ur saying and realize Paul didn't always heal, Timothy for example.
@@KM-zn3lx This lady was a total stranger to me, and I did not think it important to ask her name. So, no I did not follow up with her afterwards. What I stated was true, and her girlfriend was there to witness it. She had a young son who was unaware of her blindness until literally the day before this encounter. He became very worried for his mother and wanted her to seek medical attention for it. She told him not to worry, that God would help her. The very next day we had this amazing encounter. She was excited about returning home to tell her son. I do frequent hospitals when invited. I have also been asked to leave hospitals. I guess I'm bad for business because I've seen many miracles happen in those settings. I appreciate your curiosity, and I believe your intentions to be genuine in asking these questions. Many others, not so much. Blessings and health to you in the New Year!
Reformed doctrine is not of God, stop being a heretic Hunter ...my God has given every person a measure of faith, . ..to make a free will choice if they will be saved or not... because of God's sovereignty you can repent of your sins and turn to Christ by faith alone...
Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Please pray same way for people that has COVID and let’s see what you claim in the name of Jesus happens too and show evidence!
I grew up an Assemblies of God pastor's kid. I believed in tongues and the baptism of the Holy Spirit but was never able to experience that for myself. It happened last year, at age 57, worshiping alone at a keyboard in my bedroom. All by myself, totally unexpected. So you've come too late to convince me that it isn't real. It would be like trying to convince someone who's wearing a hat that their hat isn't real. Besides, the Word is clear.
If you have the gift of tongue you have also the holyspirit in you and your holiness will be equal to the level of Jesus. You will be living in spirits and not in flesh. Then you won't argue like this. Most likely yours is the influence of demon and Jesus Christ is unlikely to recognize you if you understand Mathew 7 21.
@@dr.k.t.varughese3151 Read. the. Bible. The Holy Spirit is real. Jesus left Him here for us. Paul was clear: tongues and spiritual gifts are REAL. End of story.
@@dr.k.t.varughese3151 you are so off base. You are the one arguing. And to judge whether God would recognize someone is very unchristian of you!
I had a similar experience only I was a newer Christian in my early 30s and had also received Christ in an Assembies if God church. I was open to speaking in tongues but it never happened for me and I was not expecting it to after a year or so. Following a particularly difficult week, where I had cried out to God for a miracle ( nothing whatsoever to do with speaking in tongues ),...He answered my prayers while I sat quietly listening to a visiting pastor preach in our church...I was so impressed with God, not emotional, just logically impressed that He had heard and so swiftly answered me (as I had not uttered a word of my grief out loud not even written it down, only God heard me). I went to the altar to thank Him and had to be quick as my husband was loading our young kids in the car, I said "Wow Father, you are amazing, I am utterly impressed!" then I put my hands on the altar to push myself up because I had on a pencil skirt with heels, and when I touched the altar out came my heavenly language and it felt more natural than English, still does!
If our spiritual experience is not biblical, it is a deception! We should avoid it by all means! The word of God is the authority, not our personal spiritual experience! The bible is clear that the gift of tongue is a real language that needs interpretation and not everyone has that gift! If we are speaking gibberish, it's not biblical. Even Hindus speak in gibberish as their spiritual language.
Thanks for this - I respect your position, and I'm closer to the 'cautious' one you mentioned but not that far, as I have experienced and witnessed certain gifts in action. Agree completely about Bethel. But I grew up in cessationist teachings, meaning I knew nothing about spiritual gifts for 20 years. We just didn't talk about them at all. So I know both sides well. Here's what you missed:
1. You cited dozens of scriptures explaining the continuationist view, including many of the ones I would have used, and you explained it well. Yet, you have not a single scripture to back up your cessationist position, other than the 'absence' of certain things in later texts. But there is not a single scripture you can point to that definitively, or even implicitly, backs up the cessationist view. Seems like a problem, and kind of ironic as elsewhere you have said we shouldn't be removing verses that don't suit our present views (such as female pastors). Aren't we removing, like whole chapters of the bible, if we say none of the supernatural gifts are in effect any more?
2. You missed the core point of prophecy. It is not to "add to the canon," as I've heard others say too, any more than preaching the word adds to the canon. You can test every prophetic word against scripture, just as you can the preached word. There's no difference at all there. The verse you read - I Cor 14:3, lays out what prophecy is for - comforting, strengthening, and building up the church. Not predicting the future in most cases. Are you saying the church doesn't need comforting and strengthening any more?
Boy, I sure need it....and it's hard to imagine why God would 'do away' with such a sorely needed ministry gift.
The reality is, these gifts can be exercised in an orderly and theologically correct way that is not obsessive or idolatrous. I personally have prophesied, to people I had never met, and they asked me afterward how I knew what I had said because it was true. Here's the answer: I didn't know, because it didn't come from me. It was God's Spirit ministering encouragement to them. I was just a vessel, because God works through people.
And he's good at it.
Amen to that brother, i had similar question. You explained it better
Amen Dan, very well said.
I probably come down as a mild continuationist, but want to take a moment to appreciate your calm demeanor, your centeredness in Christ and in the scriptures, and your ability to understand the difference between "important" and core (salvation) issues. I see the Spirit of Christ in you, and admire the wholesomeness and goodness that you bring. Proud to acknowledge you as my sister in Christ. And, like you, I hope to be ever ready to examine new evidence, and to be shown better than I currently understand. Blessings always!
Hey, personally in my life gifts and signs have always been apart of my spiritual life. I’ve seen people healed from strokes when we laid our hands on them, and we have doctors reports to prove they did indeed have a stroke. Speaking in tongues has always been for the edification of yourself, so you can be a better vessel for Christ. I think a lot of Christians assume I’m a charismatic or support emotionalism. I do not support it, just cause I believe in signs. Signs have always been for God’s glory in my life. It was always about him. We preached on how much we wanted him and if a miracle came, that it would be used for his glory. Even if we never got a miracle, it would be fine. Cause it was never about the miracle. It was always about God. I don’t go to church to get emotional. No, not at all. However when the presence of God comes upon you, it’s impossible to not be emotional in some way. Emotions are good if they are civil. I’m not for crazy emotionalism, however I believe when God manifests in someone, it’s impossible for that person to not react. So my brothers and sisters in Christ, just cause someone believes in signs doesn’t mean that they are a charismatic like the other charismatics. We are all not the same. Signs for me has always been about God’s glory. Signs have brought people to Christ in my church and we are grateful that God shows us his miracle working power . It will always be about Him and no one else. No where in the bible do I see a verse that says, signs have stopped or will be stopped. Don’t love the miracle, love the miracle worker. God bless you.
AP6 thank you.
Said so well thank you
Same thing with me buddy. I see people get healed instantly from all their pain. After I speak to their mountain and I command it to leave it just leaves. Sometimes It takes one prayer or 2 or 3 or until the person gets completely healed❤️❤️❤️
Hey guys also wanted to say that based on 1 Corinthians 13:8-9, Signs will not go away until Jesus comes to redeem the world.
Same here. Been speaking in tongues for six months. It’s real. He is so real, he is so wonderful
I love that Allie said she’s open to hearing from the other side with the Word. So the word I always go back to for why I believe in the miraculous gifts is in Mark 16:16-18. Jesus said these signs would follow all that believe, not just the Apostles. Also God is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. Agreed, not a salvation issue. Since Jesus took captive our captivity AND gave gifts to men, I just want to live in the fullness of God always! We should all seek ALL He has for us fervently.
the apostle Paul, didn’t have the word and doctrine to look at when he countered Jesus on the road to Damascus so I’d be very careful about pigeonholing and limiting God in any way, shape or form, lest you make “doctrime an idol” Almighty god is not limited to the written word, He IS THE WORD!
You took a big leap from continuationalist to Word of Faith charismatics. There is a large portion of people that believe that see the gifts of the Spirit at work today in the lives of many people but are not Word of Faith. In other words we believe the gifts of the Spirit are working in the church without any mention of "name it claim it" type of belief.
That's what I thought too!! What does name it claim it Christianity have anything to do with operating in the gift the the Spirit?
I agree. I think her point of that continuationism leads to its extremism. But that’s true about anything. Anyone can take a point and go to its extreme. Moderation in all things.
Also her point that people who have gifts think it’s because of their righteousness and their power to do miracles uses the same fallacy. Sure done may get prideful, but just as many are humbled by their gifts.
I’ll add another fallacy. She claimed that miracles were used to show the authenticity of Jesus, and His apostles message. Over time they had less need to authenticate their message because precedent was already set. I would argue that every generation needs to receive authentication of Gods message. Imagine if Jesus said, Moses did miracles that point to me. Believe the same that the Israelites did. No He was dealing with a new generation (as well as fulfilling prophecy) and so miracles are used as the fruit of His words. If God shows His truth through the gifts of the spirit, then it is required that he actually continues to give the fruit through the gifts of the spirit.
Yes, I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit is still at work today but don’t believe in the name it and claim it.
Exactly!!
Hello Allie, When I was five or six years old, I was invited to church by my neighbor - (I think it was Methodist church.) I was the only one in my family who went with them. My family never went to church and there was no church talk or bible reading in my house. So I sat with my neighbors in church, near the front pew. The minister preached and I remember thinking: he's boring. when suddenly I felt a complete enveloping inside and out, a warmth that really cannot be adequately described. No one had to tell me, I KNEW it was God. (later I realized it was the Holy Spirit) I believe I came to Christ that day, though it was much later that I learned to confess my sins, and walk by faith in believing what a marvelous gift He gave us. Going forward, when I was 28, I was driving home by myself, it was around 9 PM, and I was asking the Lord about the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues and I said to Him, if that's real and from you, I want that. Immediately I started speaking in tongues, nothing fake nothing forced. It is a gift that the Lord gave me. I have never forgotten those two amazing incidences and I am now 65 years old. It's easier to walk with the Lord when you are continually being filled up with the power of the Holy Spirit.(remember, He's called the helper and the Comforter!) (I am certainly not perfect , nor am I better than anyone else. I just received the gift by faith. Remember, the infilling of the Holy Spirit is discussed in the new testament, (Acts 19:2 for example) I would like to challenge you to a closer and warmer walk with Him. Ask Him if this is from Him, to give it to you. The Lord may not choose to give you the gift of tongues, (He might) but you most certainly will receive a major gift from Him. He, The Holy Spirit softens the spirit of a Christian while at the same time, emboldens us to share with others. One more comment, you said you are a reformed Baptist. Traditionally, Baptists are named such from John the Baptist, who baptized with water. They are heavy in preaching repentance, which is much needed. But light on acknowledging the power of the Holy Spirit. (I am sure many Baptists are Spirit-filled) My point is Jesus Baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Big difference.
AMEN. I was raised Methodist I got saved in a Baptist church after watching my mother-in-law have a personal relationship with God that she loves dearly and talk freely to and about. Desiring to know the Lord in a deeper way I prayed and asked him to fill me with the Holy Spirit and He did and the next day I began to pray in my heavenly language I have never stopped.
He is so precious and real to me every day.
Jesus Himself said that "John baptized with water but My Father will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire" and in other scripture Jesus said the Father would send the gift of the Holy Spirit to be with us after Jesus would depart from the earth.
My sister in law’s good friend went to do missionary work in a different country that spoke a different language, and when she got there and started her missionary work she suddenly could speak in their language in order to effectively share the gospel and do her missionary work. Pretty miraculous if you ask me.
My SIL's good friends, cousin's brother, etc.
@@emerybayblues So sad! There are miracles happening all around us. You just have to look and believe!🙏
I am a Licensed Minister from a large predominantly black Pentecostal-Holiness church. I, a "PK" grew seeing the manifest power of the Holy Ghost. I have witnessed demons casted out, the sick healed, prophecies given under the anointing of the Spirit of God. There comes a point to where you have to ask yourself if these things are experienced by so many why haven't I? You will never know if an orange is sweet or bitter until you TASTE it!
Amen - but hope you're not in the Oneness Movement !
@@peacetoall5992 Of that I am NOT.
I really appreciate your video. I am a continuationist.
I do believe a lot of charismatic churches do go overboard,
but I really don’t see Biblical grounds to say that because the Canon
is closed and because miracles were used to
authenticate the message, that God stopped using his servants
with these gifts. Why can’t God still authenticate the message with signs and wonders?
If you were to read these passages plain and simple,
without taking into consideration what you don’t see happening
today at our churches, what conclusions would you come up with?
(Paul is speaking to the CHURCH in Corinth as you said. Not just to the Apostles)
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He wills.
As He wills, is key as well. God is not a wishing well.
Now just to point out a few things in these verses.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the COMMON GOOD. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom (Did this cease?), and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit (Did this cease?), 9 to another faith by the same Spirit (Did this cease?), to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, (did this cease? or did demons disappear? and if they are still active are we not supposed to cast them out?) to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 ALL THESE are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as HE WILLS.
If we don’t see these things happening as often, it doesn’t mean God stopped. It probably means that we have become a faithless generation (Starting with me) and we need to get back to the original Gospel preached to the Corinthians and the other early churches.
I agree. This is not a salvific issue, but I do think it is important for us to discuss it because either side will grieve the Holy Spirit if they are wrong. Hope to hear from you! Be well and God bless you my sister!
Amen.
i was raised Oneness Pentecostal (4 generations) i finally left at 37 yrs old. I’ve seen “the gifts” confuse, abuse and rarely edified. I’ve had several loved ones die waiting on a miracle when simple medical care would have saved their lives. Anyone that claims to have a gift of healing needs to head to St Jude and get to work. i appreciate and believe there are many hungry and sincere ppl in the continuationist church movements.
Not defending Bill Johnson, but I find it interesting you quote Bill Johnson regarding "going off the map", you say we don't need anything additional and yet every source you use to support your theology is outside the bible. Final question. Can you show me one scripture in the bible that says the gifts have ceased? Because there are plenty that suggest the miraculous gifts never ceased. See, when you get locked into a theology instead of just relying on the Word of God it's no longer the Word that has preeminence but your theology. Just because you've never seen someone raised from the dead doesn't mean it doesn't still happen. Just because you've never spoken in tongues doesn't mean it is not experienced by others. Just because you've never laid your hands and prayed in faith for someone to be healed doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Bottom line, we are called to live by faith, be lead by the Spirit and test all things by the Word. I just question how any of those are possible if you're a cessationist Calvinist.
So well said, I agree completely
I pray in tongues everyday. I believe in healing from the LORD. I also believe in doctors and medicine.
You probably say the same sounding words every single time. This is what made me realize that what I was “speaking” was just made up by me. And every now and then I would “say” something differently but not really.
Sorry man but I’ve been deceived also.
@@SquishyyyBeaner same I was deceived as well
I too can pray in tongues. I too have been been born again, but if God were to give me the supernatural ability to preach in Chinese, Korean and Japanese having never learnt them, now that is what I would call a gift of the Spirit. And if He should graciously give me such a gift, I would not squander them for to who much is given, much is required. All who claim His Spirit need to do more and be better, for they are above all others His wintness.
@@somethingtothinkabout167 no you don’t pray in tongues. That gift is to save people. It is never used just to pray for yourself.
@@SquishyyyBeaner That is what I was saying, but I would go further and say I can do it with out any thought or effort as well and also without much repitition to boot. Who does it save, if you have to be saved before you are given this gift? Now if I go to some tribes people and babble in some unknown tongue, I might well have just babbled in English as it would be the same to them. But if I somehow come to them preaching in their tongue both they and I would marvel at the grace of God given to both of us.
Paul is used by God to heal a bunch of people in the last chapter of Acts, which is near the end of his life. So although he didn't speak of it in his letters that doesn't mean it wasn't still happening. Blessings to you Allie!
Around 3 years ago in the state of Michigan was able to meet and speak with a man who now is a pastor of a church with around 2000 members. That same man told me that before God started to expand his church he was a Baptist pastor until one day during a prayer meeting without anyone to put hands on him and pray specifically for him God baptized him with the Holy Spirit by giving him the special gift of speaking in tongues. In the following weeks the same happened to other members from his church without the intervention of any charismatic believer. Keep in mind this was back then 100% Baptist church. In my hometown I personally was able to Witness people laying hands over sick people during a prayer... One of those people was told recently by his doctor that He have only a few more months to live and that this will be a good time to say goodbye to friends and family. After the prayer meeting and upon his next doctor's appointment the same doctor who gave him the 1st bad news who by the way is not a believer told him that he doesn't understand how this exactly happen but he can't find anything wrong anymore with his health. Two weeks later the same man gave his testimony in the church in front of many people with the same doctor standing next to him. I wonder what will be the response of John Piper to this man and doctor? I agree that some charismatic churches sometimes can go a little bit too far something you can see in some Baptist churches in America as well. However will be wrong to think that most charismatics from around the world always share 100% the same beliefs. For example the Majority of these believers believe that putting hands on people during a prayer meeting is only a sign of agreement with heaven that Only God can do the miracle in those people's lives for who they are praying. Also the majority of this believers believe in medicines and doctors but in the miracle-working God as well. The Charismatic Pentecostal or Protestant churches are often like the Baptist Church... One tree with many different branches. Sometimes God can use anyone for his purpose even people like Amy Coney Barrett for the Supreme Court who happen to be a Charismatic christian believer.
"
In 2019 I developed debilitating symptoms of Lyme disease and was in bed for months. I had only $500 left after not being able to work and was praying whether I should take that last bit of money to send more blood samples to a lab in Germany who could supposedly help me deal with Drs here who were being no help… or use the money to go visit Bethel healing rooms and get prayer… I picked a video at random on bethel CZcams and it ended up being a testimony of an entire family being miraculously healed of Lyme disease after receiving prayer at Bethel. I was really weak and barley made it up there. I received prayer at the healing rooms, felt the power of Holy Spirit all over my body, and over the next 3 days became stronger and stronger and was completely healed by the power of the precious blood of Jesus, by whose stripes “we were healed”. I’ve been completely well these last 3 years since. Thank you Jesus!
"We fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."
(2 Corinthians 4:18) NIV
Amen.
Jesus Christ, Bible, Bible study amen
We are not “cautious continuationists”. We are biblical continuationists. The people abusing the gifts abuse the Bible. It is a false dichotomy to group us together.
I was eager to hear your views on this because I have been waiting to hear from a solid Christian (which I think you are!) on the topic in order to understand more clearly why cessationists think their view is Biblical. I have asked a number of cessationists to convince me from scripture as to why they hold this belief but have never heard something that is really clear from scripture. This, also, was not really Biblically compelling or convincing.
The term cautious continuationist just simply means you are a continuationist who is not gullible or fooled by fakery and that some gifts are more rare than others because of the day we live in. For example, speaking in tongues as far as human language is rarely if ever needed. And probably 99.99% of the big charismatic churches are more worshipers of gifts than worshipers of God. The Bethel church, from everything I have seen, is a huge abuser of the gifts. Ran by wolves, full of gullibles. The intent of the audience could be genuine in their gullibility but they are deceived and in turn are themselves deceiving others, a vicious cycle.
@@rogersanderscustoms8121 or the term cautious continuationist could just mean being lukewarm - a term we have and know exactly the meaning of.
@@MRFITTA God bless. Maybe for some if they are apathetic or lazy, but not most. You can't be careless with spiritual matters or the devil will fool you every time. Being cautious and testing the spirits is not being lukewarm at all. You also have to be careful about turning your Christian experience into going down some thrill seeking rabbit hole. I have seen some groups so heavily focused on gifts that the Gospel of Christ is no longer preached. Growing up in a "pentecostal" home the term "lukewarm" got hurled around a lot when discussing other denominations. I guess some think you're not a full-blown Christian until you're swinging from the rafters and jumping the altars.......all with your eyes closed. Take care and God bless you with His grace and peace.
It is clear throughout Acts that tongues is the individual fluently speaking foreign languages that he never knew before. It was NOT silly gibberish.
Kenneth Cavagnaro 👏👏👏👏👏
Absolutely !
Tongues can be translated as languages, and we have examples as you say of known languages, but as shown in 1 Cor 14:14 it is sometimes an unknown language. We are taught by Paul to seek the spiritual gifts. I try to follow what the Bible teaches, and the gift of tongues has been a great blessing to me.
@@thomasfryxelius5526 If you read 1 Cor 14 as a whole, Paul is talking to a congregation that were filled with different gifts (he's focusing on tongues and prophecies here). So imagine a church service where ppl were speaking in different languages and prophesying at the same time, there is disorder. We know that he isn't telling individuals to pursue specific gifts or he's contradicting everything he said in 1 Cor 12 (esp v 11-31). In 1 Cor 14, Paul makes the command to prioritise prophecy instead of tongues (emphasised in v 5), for if you speak in another language you would need an interpreter too, and if there isn't an interpreter, then no one would understand you -- "mysteries of the Spirit".
@@aliciatai347 I agree with you about the situation, and that´s why Paul is arguing that they should pray in tongues privately and not in the church service if there is no interpreter. But saying that you should use it in private and that you should prioritise prophecy doesn´t mean tongues is bad. If it was, he would not use it himself as he claims he does.
"We know that he isn't telling individuals to pursue specific gifts..." you say. Paul says
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy." Seems to me that´s exactly what he says. Why do you think this contradicts 1 cor 12:11-31?
I myself am a lame man, I have cerebral palsy, I got saved in a Apostolic Pentecostal Church, typically I use a walker. One day when worshiping God I begin to take steps (still in my walker mind you) but in the mist of praising God I begin to walk perfectly straight without dragging my feet. In that moment I was not thinking of a healing, I was not thinking of getting something from God, I was just worshiping the king of kings. I was not healed, when we stopped praising my posture went back to normal, and my feet begin to drag like usual. However, God showed me that he can heal me, He still heals today, it’s not about health, wealth, and prosperity. In the church I grew up in there was a balance. They very much so touched on holy living and reflecting Christ in word and deed Colossians 3:17. I will say this, I think it’s beautiful that God showed that he could heal me, yet chose not to heal me for whatever reason. I still do believe because God himself showed me the gifts are still active today. But there is a time and place for the gifts, Jesus cares more about our heart condition. If you look in Matthew 9 before Jesus heals the man when his four friends help him through the roof he says “your sins are forgiven“ that my friends is more important then the physical healing. I have also laid hands on friends of mine and they’ve been healed of back pain, or an injury in the foot. My aunt is currently going through cancer my family and I prayed For her, she still doing her chemo. Does that mean that God dose not hear our prayer? Of course not, he knows exactly what he’s doing. I believe that God teaches us many lessons through sickness. You can look at Paul and his thorn in the flesh. He asked God to heal him three times, but yet God says “my grace is sufficient enough for the“ we don’t know what that thorn was but we know that he had a struggle. James 5: 16 talks about confession and prayer. I have done all these things and yet I still use a walker to get from place to place. God is sovereign and he could heal me in this life, or in the next. I believe true Pentecostals have a peace, and a joy when you coming to worship God together in spirit and in truth. A lot of people can say it’s emotionalism, sometimes it can be. But if you think about it, people get excited over football games, concerts, traveling etc. we know the God of the universe, we know he sent his son to die for us so that we could be with him for eternity in heaven. That should get us excited, that should put a smile on our face, that should bring a joy in our life. That should get us excited more than anything. At the same time repentance is needed, holiness is something we should all strive for. Yes I believe the gifts are still active today. I speak in tongues, I am myself being a lame man, yet praying over people for healing, sometimes it, happens sometimes it doesn’t Believe in the spiritual gifts, and believe in a proper way of using those gifts. However, the most important thing above all else brothers and sisters is, is Jesus Christ Lord of our lives? Matthew 7 talks about people doing many miraculous things in his name, and yet he tells them “I never knew you“ yes gifts are active and they are important, but there is a place for them. Jesus really is after our heart, through that there should be a sanctification process that takes place in our lives that reflects Jesus Christ
Search “Mel Bond healing” on youtube 🙌🏻 you’ll see why.
Caitlin Dillard I will thank you so much!
Thank you for your testimony! I enjoyed it. God is good!
I’m so happy Allie separates Bethel from Continuationists.
I agree; as this was my main concern initially about watching this video, but I'm glad she doesn't do this.... In addition, I don't know if Allie knows that so called "word of faith" (or name it and claim it "prosperity" teaching) was not part of early (20th century)Pentecostal teaching or influence, this was (to the best of my knowledge) introduced from non Pentecostal persons such as E W Kenyon and later Kenneth Hagin Sr among others; for people that think there isn't a difference between a charismatic or Pentecostal and the name it and claim it teaching aught to read "A Different Gospel" by D.R. McConnell; he is someone who holds to the truth and practice of charismatic gifts , but this entire book is a warning against and rejection of "name it and claim it" theology and practice which are not necessarily inherent to true charismatic or Pentecostal teaching and/or practice.
Here's a link to this book if anyone's interested:
www.christianbook.com/a-different-gospel-d-r-mcconnell/9781565631328/pd/31323
In addition, I've noticed non- charismatics are more likely to error in rejecting things that are actually of God in their seeming default rejection of the supernatural; but charismatics on the other hand, need to obey scripture to test all things and hold fast to what is good, that I believe they fail to do in many instances; but my point is, either extreme is not correct, but just a different kind of error.
Remy4489 I’m so glad you said this. I also do not believe that because a few people used a scripture incorrectly means that everyone who worships similarly is also incorrect. In expansion that would negate all of Christianity. A theological problem within a subgroup does not remove the validity of the entire group. Many Pentecostals will rebuke “name it and claim it philosophy.” For everything God creates, there is a counterfeit. I think it’s irresponsible to allow skepticism to remove faith from yourself and others and ignore certain scriptures based off denominational philosophy. I also am concerned about the implications of speaking on this with authority, without scriptural backing.
@@matasaina2011 have you read these books that blatantly take the Bible passages out of context? Have you examined his teachings when He quotes Scripture in context and asked yourself, "Is this what this passage was intended to mean?" He regularly distorts the teachings of the Bible using any passage that can be twisted to fit his theology, rather than fitting his theology to what the Bible teaches.
Me too. I am a Lutheran but I am a careful continuationist ....biblical continuationists are completely different than word of faith people
Do not fall for Bethel it has shown many signs of being satanic .🙄
As a Reformed Cautious Continuationist who was thankfully pulled out of new-age spirituality, I love Allie Beth Stuckey! As Christians, we should be unified in the essentials of the faith. Such as the doctrine of the Trinity, Sola Scriptura, Fide, Gratia, etc., and most importantly, who is the real Biblical Jesus. The non-essentials we absolutely can disagree on. It's fun to debate as long as we love each other. Although I respectfully disagree on some things she says about non-essentials, I'm so glad to have a sister in Christ like Allie Beth Stuckey. Her podcast and wisdom the Lord has given her has been such an invaluable help to me as I grow in my walk and am conformed to His image. She could not be more right and just about Bethel Church. It grieves me that what I was pulled out of has infiltrated many churches in America today. But, take heart, for the Lord is sovereign and will continue to give us the strength to speak the truth in love and expose the works of darkness. Pray for these people that they be convicted of their false teachings and repent. Let us love our enemies. However, it is our duty to call them out and separate from such people. Christ calls us to university, (unity and diversity), through Him and to divide among those who are deceived and continue to deceive. Thank you for your boldness Allie! Praying for you and your family and that God continues to bless you!
I'm a continuationist buy I very much appreciate your handling of this subject and learned some things. I'm thankful that we can disagree and still be brothers and sisters in Christ.
Meh.
You are sharper than any ten people I know! But within three or four years your understanding of these things will awakened! God bless you.
It’s only been the last couple days I have started watching your channel. We disagree and agree on subjects but I really enjoy listening to so many points of view.
As far as the subject is concerned. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Miracles, prophecies, God healing through others, still continues today.
I am 49 years old and at the age of 15 I was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Not only was it terminal but it was in the right side of my face. The surgeon, who happen to be an atheist, told my Christian family that I had a 10% chance to live and that by the time they took the large tumor and mandible out of my face I would look like a stroke victim for however, long I did live. I would look like a stroke victim because all of my nerves on the right side of my face had to be cut in order to remove all that they had to remove and those nerves were cut. And I did look like a stroke victim. We had to tape my eye shut I had to learn how I was going to eat again using a mirror to help guide food into the left side of my mouth. I was also told that if I did happen to be the 10% that did survive I definitely would not be able to have children. Not only did I survive. For God blessed my husband and I with a child and now with a grandchild. As far as the paralyzation of my face…
Two months after that operation when I was 15 a group of Christians came and laid hands on me. They anointed my head with oil. Some spoke in tongues some said prayers I could understand. I felt electricity go up my entire body and two weeks later I had full movement of the right side of my face.
My surgeon didn’t even have words. It was a miracle through prayer and the laying on of hands. It is scientifically impossible for all those nerves in my face to have grown back together ever and I do mean ever much less in just days.
It’s a much longer awesome story with so many awesome God details but through this event in my life my atheist surgeon became saved because he could not deny the miracle of God he had seen that goes against all “science”.
You are such an intelligent, anointed speaker. Please don’t deny your self or your family the movement and miracles of the Holy Spirit that Jehovah Rapha still allows today.
You have said it yourself many times. Because the Bible says it. God is the same yesterday today and forever more.
Keep up the good work and please excuse my voice recognition text
Thanks for the video Allie. I am a former Word of Faith preacher who is now a reformed Baptist. I am a cautious continuationist in the John Piper sense. Word of Faith and Bethel are heretical. I had to repent for being a false teacher. These movements are dangerous, but have many sincere believers who are deceived.
Praise God for you man! So glad to see how He has worked in your life to bring you closer to him!
Daniel Jones.....'cautious contiuationist' ....is? other than sounding lukewarm
@@MRFITTA how does that sound "lukewarm"?
I think there is room for disagreement on the charismatic gifts, it doesn't make or break the gospel. Personally I think they are still valid today but they are gifts God gives as he wills, not for us to decide which ones we want and try and grab them. BUT I agree that there are those who take the gifts way off the deep end and make up a whole new doctrine and theology out of them. The New Age is definitely invading the church and Bethel is a clear example of this. Bill Johnson may have been on track in the beginning in his quest for revival but he's gotten way into the supernatural that is unbiblical. I have a number of dear, dear friends who've gotten sucked into his teaching and church though they live a state away. Now they're into straight up numerology as well as "practicing" prophesying, among other things. I have been looking into Bethel Church about 5 years now, I've listened to Lindsay Davis and I've watched the full American Gospel. It breaks my heart that so many people are deceived by this "ministry". I've listened to Bill Johnson sermons that sound okay and then...there's the zinger that makes you go "say what??" And if you didn't know your bible, you'd think nothing of it. If you're not encouraged to read and know your bible on your own, think how easy it is to be deceived. Genius strategy from the Enemy.
Yes, I agree...
Well said; thank you
I'm in complete agreement. The gifts are given by the Holy Spirit to whom He pleases to edify and serve the church. They are not parlor tricks to entertain the church.
Annie Rudy hi Annie :) have you personally been to Bethel Church or are you “seeing” all of these things from a distance? It’s easier to be a spectator, from my experience. Just curious :) Blessings.
@@jaylenegonzalez5435 I feel Annie is well on point here .... One do not have to eat with the pigs, in order to know you will get dirty once you do ! By knowing your Bible, doing lots of Bible study and researching subject matter in comparison with sound teachings, one will become more and more holy and approved. Naturally this includes continual prayers to be blessed with good discernment. So in answer, yes one can & often should rather stand from afar and judge that which is against the Word of God !
Thanks Allie for distinguishing and clarifying those views. While I'm not a continuationist nor reform, you did an excellent job explaining the differences. Love your tweets and CZcams programs.
Thank you for the information you share with us daily. God bless you and keep you faithful to the Word.
Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is alive and active..."
Being a cessation is your greatest weakness since you are parading that your God, which is also our God, as continuoutionist, are limited. GOD IS THE SAME, YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER. AND HE IS OMNIPOTENT.😊
I have been an Operating room chaplain for years the Lord has used me to raise two people from the dead in front of people and yet you have never seen me on tv nor am I famous in Christendom! I lives wonderful life with the Lord in my hometown. I pray in touches daily, I am a woman who teaches the Bible even to men like the woman at the well and God does the miracles part! Stop being Baptist and start being Christ followers!
I’ve experienced a miracle from God. Deliverance/healing that would have been impossible without Him. Faith + Power = Healed as long as it’s the will of God. I think that the gifts of the spirit is the word of God which is more powerful than the name of Jesus, because that’s what the Bible says… I don’t know if we should try to put it on a reduced level or even a versus of the gospel. Millions of testimonies of healing promotes the fact the we are healed by His stripes.
Paul said we should earnestly seek the best of the gifts. I am apart of the #UPCI. Love my church and pastor ♥️
The festival of Shavu‘ot arrived, and the believers all gathered together in one place. Suddenly there came a sound from the sky like the roar of a violent wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then they saw what looked like tongues of fire, which separated and came to rest on each one of them. They were all filled with the Ruach HaKodesh and began to talk in different languages, as the Spirit enabled them to speak. Now there were staying in Yerushalayim religious Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd gathered; they were confused, because each one heard the believers speaking in his own language. Totally amazed, they asked, “How is this possible? Aren’t all these people who are speaking from the Galil? How is it that we hear them speaking in our native languages? We are Parthians, Medes, Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Y’hudah, Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome; Jews by birth and proselytes; Jews from Crete and from Arabia...! How is it that we hear them speaking in our own languages about the great things God has done?” Amazed and confused, they all went on asking each other, “What can this mean?” But others made fun of them and said, “They’ve just had too much wine!” Then Kefa stood up with the Eleven and raised his voice to address them: “You Judeans, and all of you staying here in Yerushalayim! Let me tell you what this means! Listen carefully to me! “These people ar en’t drunk, as you suppose - it’s only nine in the morning. No, this is what was spoken about through the prophet Yo’el: ‘Adonai says: “In the Last Days, I will pour out from my Spirit upon everyone. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my slaves, both men and women, will I pour out from my Spirit in those days; and they will prophesy. I will perform miracles in the sky above and signs on the earth below - blood, fire and thick smoke. The sun will become dark and the moon blood before the great and fearful Day of Adonai comes. And then, whoever calls on the name of Adonai will be saved.”’ “Men of Isra’el! Listen to this! Yeshua from Natzeret was a man demonstrated to you to have been from God by the powerful works, miracles and signs that God performed through him in your presence. You yourselves know this. This man was arrested in accordance with God’s predetermined plan and foreknowledge; and, through the agency of persons not bound by the Torah, you nailed him up on a stake and killed him! “But God has raised him up and freed him from the suffering of death; it was impossible that death could keep its hold on him. For David says this about him: ‘I saw Adonai always before me, for he is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken. For this reason, my heart was glad; and my tongue rejoiced; and now my body too will live on in the certain hope that you will not abandon me to Sh’ol or let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the ways of life; you will fill me with joy by your presence.’ “Brothers, I know I can say to you frankly that the patriarch David died and was buried - his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that one of his descendants would sit on his throne, he was speaking in advance about the resurrection of the Messiah, that it was he who was not abandoned in Sh’ol and whose flesh did not see decay. God raised up this Yeshua! And we are all witnesses of it! “Moreover, he has been exalted to the right hand of God; has received from the Father what he promised, namely, the Ruach HaKodesh; and has poured out this gift, which you are both seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into heaven. But he says, ‘Adonai said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ Therefore, let the whole house of Isra’el know beyond doubt that God has made him both Lord and Messiah - this Yeshua, whom you executed on a stake!” On hearing this, they were stung in their hearts; and they said to Kefa and the other emissaries, “Brothers, what should we do?” Kefa answered them, “Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh! For the promise is for you, for your children, and for those far away - as many as Adonai our God may call!” He pressed his case with many other arguments and kept pleading with them, “Save yourselves from this perverse generation!” So those who accepted what he said were immersed, and there were added to the group that day about three thousand people. They continued faithfully in the teaching of the emissaries, in fellowship, in breaking bread and in the prayers. Everyone was filled with awe, and many miracles and signs took place through the emissaries. All those trusting in Yeshua stayed together and had everything in common; in fact, they sold their property and possessions and distributed the proceeds to all who were in need. Continuing faithfully and with singleness of purpose to meet in the Temple courts daily, and breaking bread in their several homes, they shared their food in joy and simplicity of heart, praising God and having the respect of all the people. And day after day the Lord kept adding to them those who were being saved.
Acts of Emissaries of Yeshua (Act) 2:1-47 CJB
bible.com/bible/1275/act.2.1-47.CJB
this is biblical theology in the Jewish bible...
IT says the gifts are promised to as many as our Lord Adonai will call....God is the one who calls to the Holy Spirit Gift Tounges, No Man calls to tongues. So If you want the gifts you can Seek God and he will give it to you....this is what happened to my husband he worked for a Chip company and prayed by himself to God and God gave it to him on the Truck ....I grew up having tongues since 7 years old from God. God also does not say we can't have all the gifts. If my father in heaven has a gift I ask for all of them. I believe in Adonai and he created us all and all creatures. So I eagerly presue God and his Gifts. God Bless you and your earnest search in Prayer to God for the Gifts. ❤ He gives us his beautiful power to draw closer to him and his Holliness. His Holliness is beautiful and I want to be no where else but in his beautiful presence. It is like nothing else. ❤
im just make this simple for people wanting extra biblical doctrine i don't need anymore sign from God then he gave his son on the cross as the sacrifice so we can have peace and don't need anything more than scripture to show us the heart of God this is the heart of the reformation that thousands of Christians gave their lives that we take for granted what the giants in the faith went through to have what we have today
False premise alert - "people wanting extra biblical doctrine" - People who exercise the gifts of the Holy Spirit are obeying God. It was God's design to interact with His people through the gifts of the Spirit. The revelation we get via the exercise of the spiritual gifts isn't on the same level as the Scriptures, thus the command to "test all things and to hold to what is good". We test revelatory words via the Bible.
Second Error - "I don't need anymore signs from God.....etc..." Well, if you want to be in obedience to God's Word, then you will "earnestly desire the gifts, especially that you would prophecy..." "Forbid not the speaking in tongues". - Your opinion doesn't agree with God's. You need to repent for that and humble yourself and He will bless you to hear from Him and your relationship will become much more personal because you hear God's voice. Jesus said His followers will hear His voice - he meant that and He wants that.
@@svenwalton1332 gods word is very clear in church settings if there is a interperter for the one speaking in tongues its allowed biblicaly otherwise its choas god is a god of order
@@cwcw402 Not sure what that has to do with what you originally wrote, or with what I wrote....I agree that tongues in church spoken out loud needs an interpreter or it is out of order.
@@svenwalton1332 well then i dont get what your disagreement is with im not against the holy spirit if thats what u are implying or the gifts of the spirit and that God seals us with the spirit at salvation and that is our comforter through life and that he grant each believer different gifts, my original comment was just no one not anyone should add to scripture and teach it as new doctrine if its not in scripture already that was my main point
I really really like Alley Stuckey and even though I disagree with her on this topic I just like her all the more. I have to point a logical fallacy that it seems trips her up here: 1. Bethel fits into the category of word of faith, and 2. Word of faith is heretical, there for 3. Bethel is heretical. It would be much more helpful to address exactly what doctrines Bethel holds that are heretical and speak to those from scripture. But honestly that would be hard to do if she is specifically addressing the gifts of the spirit because there really is no hard evidence from scripture for cessationism. From my own experience, if I may humbly share, I was born and raised cessationist but changed my theology after doing two things. First was reading and studying the bible myself on this topic from an open and honest perspective. When I did that I was surprised to find that cessationist teachers (like John McArthur, author of Charismatic Chaos for example) ignore the passages of scripture like 1 Cor 14 that indicate the purposes of gifts. Alley does not ignore these passages by the way because she such a good honest student of scripture, but most cessationist teachers do, in my experience. In addition, cessationist teachers tend to reeeeaaally stretch other passages to try to make them say gifts have already ceased. It shocked me when I first started studying the bible on this topic, and it still surprises me that great students of scripture break the rules of hermeneutics when it comes to gifts - again, not pointing fingers at Alley at all, but I would like to hear more on this from her. Second, in addition to reading and studying the bible myself and finding no solid case for cessationism, I humbly and honestly prayed and asked the holy spirit to show me what was the truth. To my shock, surprise and dare I say fear, during worship one week, with no preacher praying for me, no laying on of hands, no emotional appeal, the holy spirit prompted me to "give me your voice" and I spoke in tongues, for a long time, and then after the church service was over, I felt his power and peace and joy come on me so much that I could not handle it. Again, no altar call, no person praying for me, but I laid down under waves of peace and joy of the Lord for a long time. I will never forget that. And so started a lifetime journey where the holy spirit is integral to my walk with the Lord. I do not idolize gifts, but I do go as far as scripture goes in my belief that the spiritual gifts are good and they are for today. The gifts of the spirit are part of my daily walk with the Lord although knowing me you might never know because its not about being showy. But I have so many precious stories I could tell of how the holy spirit used the gifts to touch me or, through me, to touch others in the most powerful and intimate ways. There is a reason why the bible says to "earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophecy." The holy spirit has an amazing way of using each of us believers. I believe the gifts will not cease until the bible says they will cease - and it tells us they will cease when Christ returns and we see him face to face. 1 Cor 13:8-12. God bless you Alley - you are such a refreshing voice. I'm always showing my wife and kids your videos. Keep up the good work.
Well said Allie Beth! WOW! Please, Father, cleanse your church and purify your people to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus. Christ. In this hour of time, we cannot proclaim your Holiness enough. Take the world out of our hearts and change our affections.
I appreciate Allie’s honesty on where she stands. Jesus teaches us not to judge. To question and to criticise, analyse and raise more questions is all very important but to judge things like raising the dead as heretical or delusional we make a mistake to put ourselves higher than others. If God has done miracles in the past there is no limit to why he should not do it today. I can’t see that in the scriptures quoted either. Besides limiting God we are also judging the people who testify about what they have seen and experienced. I pray for the church to see and be blessed by each other’s differences and judge less. Test everything keep the good and pray for the rest. 🙏🏼
Thanks Allie..!! True biblical gospel.. Thanks to our loving LORD JESUS CHRIST, JEHOVAH father and the HOLY SPIRIT GOD for this glorious gospel and opening our spiritual eyes to all truth..!! Our citizenship is in heaven wherein is all joy, fullness, perfection.
Allie... I really applaud your presentation and know you have most likely presented new information that will increase COGNITIVE DISSONANCE in Bethel Church, “Word of Faith,” and group think humans who worship rebellious Spirit Beings (Elohim) who oppose our one God in three persons...
Thank you, Allie, for laying out these points so well. I was raised and still attend the Church of Christ, which might be the "OG" non-denominationalists lol. They have been pretty extreme in the past but thankfully, are more moderate now. On this topic, we've gone from believing that one only has the Spirit while reading the Bible, to more commonly held beliefs on the indwelling of the Spirit. On gifts, we typically are cessationists, but I believe loosely so. The Apostles received the gifts from the Spirit in order to prove they were really from God. They had the ability to lay hands on other disciples and pass on gifts, but usually only one gift, not all. The disciples didn't have that ability to pass on the gifts. Therefore, after the death of the apostles and early disciples who were touched by them, the gifts ceased. That doesn't mean, however, that God doesn't still do miraculous works whenever He wishes or in answer to prayer. It's just not "on command" to be used at will. I believe those things exist, but not in their original form. Thanks, Allie! 🙏🇺🇲
Being a cessation is your greatest weakness since you are parading that your God, which is also our God, as continuoutionist, are limited. GOD IS THE SAME, YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER. AND HE IS OMNIPOTENT.
A question to all continuationists, how do you know that when you do these signs it is not coming from a deferent spirit(s)? How do you or did you test the spirit that give you these gifts? How do you know that these gifts aren't the deceiving signs and wonders from the end times mentioned in Scripture? Thank you and God bless.
I used to be a very dogmatic cessationist. I grew up Southern Baptist, and it was just what I was always taught to believe. I was never really challenged on those beliefs because everyone around me held the same beliefs. As a result, I had no idea why I believed it. It wasn’t until I met my boyfriend that I was actually challenged on those beliefs. He considers himself a “Bapticostal.” He grew up at a freewill baptist church, which is more on the charismatic side. I have heard him speak in tongues. When I initially told him that I was a cessationist, he challenged that. He gave me bible verses to defend his beliefs and I honestly could not refute them. I am a person who has a need to know WHY I believe what I do. The fact that I held this belief and had no idea why really shook me. I ended up taking a whole day, simply researching and scouring the bible to figure out what the bible actually says about the miraculous spiritual gifts. Ultimately, ended up coming to the conclusion that most arguments I had ever heard for cessationism are pretty weak and not as grounded in scripture as I had once thought. I’m still a little confused because the bible is a little ambiguous on this subject, but I now consider myself a “cautious continuationist.” The beliefs I hold are pretty similar to John Piper’s, in this area.
Chloe Peifer Seach “Crack Your Bible - praying in tongues” on here. She did a whole series on this that explains everything really well! 💕🙌🏻 y’all should definitely watch it.
There are three types of Biblical speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues is specifically mentioned as a sign, a fruit of the Spirit if you will, that someone is a believer. We don’t speak in tongues to become saved, we speak in tongues to SHOW that we’re saved
“And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;” - MARK 16:17 ESV
In 1 CORINTHIANS 12:30, Paul was specifically speaking about “not all speak in tongues” as their public gift for the common good of the church!
“To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” - 1 CORINTHIANS 12:7 ESV
I absolutely love your videos. What a beautiful mind and heart submitted to God. I look forward to your messages
Thank you for this well rounded explanation. I am a continuationist, probably on the more reformed side doctrinally. I believe that everything you do has to be fully rooted in Christ and in Scripture. The only thing I don't see in scripture is a specific and clear end to tongues, to prophecy and to knowledge. I cannot deny the gifts unless they have ended very clearly in scripture especially since I have seen them happen personally. Through fasting and praying, through simple prayers asking for healing. Anything we do has to be done in humility in full submission to Jesus, and fully according to his Word. BUT Word of Faith, Gospel of Self, Prosperity Gospel etc... I do not see that in the Scripture under the New Covenant.
I recently found your channel and love it, thanks for speaking the truth and not pandering to what is popular, and being BIBLICAL, not opinionated in scripture. What translation do you personally use and/or prefer?
Good video Allie much truth . Thank God for discernment and because of that you as well as myself brought Bethel and most recently Elevation and the prideful messages and actions that has distorted the truth to many young believers that tragically hinders their walk with Christ that can cause them to woller with the hogs for a time until they run home to the Father.
This new Church following we are seeing today and even for years has caused me to step back to the time closer to the beginning of the Church. I thank God for an audio book found on CZcams titled " The Knowledge of the Holy by A.W. Tozer ". I urge all believers to open their mind, heart and ears , pray for discernment and sit down to listen to this Spirit filled book. This will bring you so much closer to who God is in the relationship to Trinity .
God bless yoy Sister .
I am from charismatic and i always doubt those over acting behaviour. Apparently you have explained the reason of my doubt.
Glad you do so. God bless you
I was a continuationist most of my life. I’m now a cessationist. If people want more info supporting the cessationist view, I would highly recommend watching the Strange Fire conference videos on the Grace To You CZcams channel, as well as Justin Peters’ Clouds Without Water video series.
God absolutely still heals. I’ve prayed for a miraculous healing and received that healing from God. God can heal and perform any miracle He sees fit for today. But I believe that the apostolic gifts have ceased.
Give one in context verse that supports cessation please? Just one. (And don't quote the chapter on Love that is way absolutely taken out of context). There is none.
But there are hundreds of verses proving the gifts haven't stopped.
Which will you believe? Justin Peter's or Jesus and the rest of scriptures?
@@transregret How about you start by providing your "hundreds of verses proving the gifts haven't stopped."
@@KristiLinauer It would take me a lot of time to compile them, but they are in Cornthians, Romans, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Revelation, Joel, Daniel, etc. Jesus made it absolutely clear that in his name we would cast out demons and heal the sick and he made it clear that the same works he did we will do also, and even greater works. He told us that if we believed nothing would be impossible. God instituted the gifts of the Holy Spirit and taught them to us in detail in Corinthians. It was prophecied that in the last days God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh and we would prophecy (Joel 2) and that we would do great exploits in the last days (Daniel). Even two great prophets called the two witnesses with rise up and prophecy in the last days (see Revelation).
So I have shared some verses with you. I hope that you will share even just one in context verse where anyone in the Bible said that the gifts would stop.
I don't say that to be confrontational, I care about you and I genuinely want you to realize that the gifts are absolutely for today so that you can become baptized in the Holy Spirit and walk in all God has for you.
Allie keep the good work of spreading the TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL … AMEN 🙏 ❤
I’m a continuationist but I really appreciate your perspective & thank you for covering this topic ❤️
What is continuation.giddylovely4@gmail.com
Thank you!!!!
I had an outside vision from God about the blood of Jesus makes you white as snow, it was a super natural experience, just like people in the Bible had . God is still the same today and forever
Hi Allie, Thanks for your video. I am also a reformed calvinist, but also a continuationist. I am glad you mention Piper because it was through his teaching, and also going to a Sovereign Grace church that I became reformed. I believe I am these things because I see them clearly in the bible, and after 30 years as a Christian, I would be hard pressed to see it any other way. You say you are a cessassionist, except that besides explaining that we don't hear about the gifts in the later Epistles, you don't give a clear biblical argument that the gifts ceased. Thats what I was watching this video for. Perhaps this is because, in my opinion, there is no clear biblical evidence. I see much more clear biblical evidence that the gifts didnt cease. Why would Paul be giving instructions to the Corinthians about proper and loving use of the gifts, to the churches, if they were only meant for the apostles to be signs of their apostolic office? Why would the church be taught about them? And if they were supposed to cease, wouldnt it be more clear in the NT? The strongest argument I have heard people like John McArthur use is the verse in 1 Corinthians 13 about "when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away". I believe that is referring to Christ's 2nd coming, but even if not, we can't build a doctrine on one or two verses. Also, nearly everyone I hear who is cessationist when they want to prove the charismatics wrong, point to the more "out there" aspects of charismania. They throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have seen, in churches like Sovereign Grace, the gifts used in an orderly way, and where the leadership was shepherding their use well. I have also benefitted from gifts like discernment, prophesy, and tongues, which I use almost daily for my edification. If its true that the gifts have ceased, you will have to prove it to me from scripture. By the way I have a daughter called Ellie, almost the same as your name.
I am always glad to learn that someone I follow is a fellow Reformed Baptist!
Thank you! Excellent perspective.
Although I agree that the main purpose of the church is not the pursuit of signs and wonders but to lead people to Christ through the Gospel and encouraging all to a relationship with God, I believe that God is very much willing to demonstrate His power in the church. (John 14: 12-14) The supernatural and gifts of the Spirit is meant to edify the church and without it the church is just as any other religion although the Bible is indeed the grounds for truth in our lives. The power of God is a means through which God glorifies Himself and brings people into His kingdom and into a deeper relationship with Him. It is for this reason why the Holy Spirt will demonstrate His power through Christians today as He has done in the past. It didn't stop with Bible canon.
But I get you. Based on what you said about Bethel and its over emphasis on spiritual gifts, it does sound like divination and New Age theology. At the end of the day as you say it is up to God whether we wants to demonstrate His power in a given situation. Our faith though it pleases God and is a part of the reason why He may demonstrate His power, when it comes on to the gifts, our faith does not inherently release the supernatural in our lives.
Just because some people misuse the gifts of the spirit does not mean its all a lie
Good job Allie. 100% correct. They tounges that they teach and practice, are not the tounges spoken in acts at the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It is an actual language that the disciples spoke.
I'm interested to know why people think the work of the Holy Spirit is only to be a sign to unbelievers and to authenticate apostleship, and not to meet the needs of people for healing, spiritual growth, and life problems. I believe it was originally both and still is today. The Scripture are our ultimate guide in truth and it stands on its own. The work continues until the Lord Jesus comes again. There are terrible abuses, but that doesn't negate the truth of God's word.
Totally agree. I've seen signs act as a sign to believers and unbelievers alike. To the believer, it builds faith; to the unbeliever, it authenticates God.
I wanted to share some things from a different viewpoint. I personally believe in the spiritual gifts, but don’t necessarily believe that they should be happening as often-I don’t necessarily have thoughts on that-although, I think a cessationist viewpoint doesn’t seem to be right. Although, first, I should say that I respect you so much, and think so highly of you! One passage that I want to point out is at the end of the 1 Cor 13 “love passage,” where it states:
“Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
1 Corinthians 13:8-12
There are a couple things to notice, primarily that Paul is talking about an end of some gifts, but if you notice, the end that he’s comparing everything to is Heaven-that’s when we’ll see Him face to face and that’s when we’ll know Him fully.
I think the fact that miracles seemed to be happening “less and less” is just an observation though and isn’t strong enough to make a point out of it. I think just as good of a point would be pointing to places were miracles are happening in the world today-in places like Mozambique, Africa, where many people’s eyesight has been recovered by healing, and testified by doctors. (That’s just a big one to point to that is more measurable.)
Something to consider would be this: it seems that more brain-leaning ppl seem to end up in non-charismatic churches, and more heart-leaning people tend to end up in charismatic ones. I think we’re drawn to the things that we relate to more naturally, and in a more sinful way, we feel more validated in the communities that tell us essentially that “you’re right on-and you’re not missing anything.”
I would say that you seem to be very brain-leaning, but it’s also beautiful, because that’s how God has made you, and you’re using so much of the talents he’s given you to serve and help others. I think that when Jesus said that we need to love God with all of our HEART, MIND, and STRENGTH, though, he was giving us all a very challenging command to love God in the ways that we’re naturally good at loving Him, but then he’s all calling us to love Him in the ways that are more “unnatural” or ways that can even be a struggle for us. For charismatic ppl, they just more naturally connect with the spiritual gifts, and it tends to be more of a struggle for them to use their mind like you do. But I believe we’re called to both, to do the best that we can, with all of our strength-a very high calling.
Also, with the more wealth that people or countries have, the less they “need” miracles. When you’re poor, you’re more desperate, and when you’re more desperate, you are more likely to reach for the “supernatural” side of Christianity. I think that it’s also more likely for wealthy ppl to come to a cessationist viewpoint than it would be for someone living in a very impoverished area, because they more so depend on miracles more regularly.
Having said all that, this message doesn’t mean I stand by Bethel’s take on continualism-this is just to say I don’t think that a cessationist view is a view that we should hold.
Rapid fire truths. Well done
Thank you for covering this topic! Coming out of a place that practiced what Bethel does, I support all truth to shed light on this. God bless this show!
If a person is not a “Dispensationalist” there is little chance he could see a difference in the ministry of Jesus Christ on earth before before his death, burial, and resurrection/ascension AND his revelation ministry through Paul for the “Body of Christ” today...Good reporting and I hope you CONTINUE REFORMING....
I mostly believe in sensationalism since we have the complete Word of God now. But I would not say that miraculous gifts or instances never happen either because I wouldn't limit God like that.
Jes Drew yess! Search “Crack Your Bible - praying in tongues” on here. She did a whole series on this that explains everything really well! 💕🙌🏻 you should definitely watch it.
There are three types of Biblical speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues is specifically mentioned as a sign, a fruit of the Spirit if you will, that someone is a believer. We don’t speak in tongues to become saved, we speak in tongues to SHOW that we’re saved
“And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;” - MARK 16:17 ESV
In 1 CORINTHIANS 12:30, Paul was specifically speaking about “not all speak in tongues” as their public gift for the common good of the church!
“To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” - 1 CORINTHIANS 12:7 ESV
You meant Cessationism?
I am a skeptical person by nature, but I have witnessed the speaking of tongues several times in my parent's church when I was a tween. It usually happened when we were all praying intently together. Someone would suddenly and clearly speak in a language unknown to anyone (including the one who spoke it). Usually for a period of 10 or 20 seconds. Shortly after, someone else would speak the interpretation. On one of these occasions, the lady sitting next to me was the one who gave the interpretation. After church I asked her what the deal was and if she had heard that language before. She said she had never heard it before, had no idea it would happen, and that nothing like it had ever happened to her before. As I recall, none of these messages contained anything that wasn't already in the Bible. It wasn't a new revelation, or anything like that. More like a powerful reiteration of what was already known through the Word. Take it for what you will, but that was my own experience.
Matthew 10:8 clearly says....Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. We are commanded to do these things.
I've listened to your whole discussion here, but there are others scriptures to support that Jesus wanted us to do these things. He also said..in John 14:12 Truly,truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
So...in praying for Olives resurrection, Bethel demonstrated great faith and trusting God for the " greater things". Yes of course God is sovereign and Olive is with Jesus Who is the Resurrection and The Life, but what a beautiful act of faith to believe Jesus is more than able to raise from the dead....here and now through the power of Holy Spirit!
I believe through the understanding and revelation of The Word of God that the gifts will cease...but it will be when we are all with Christ in heaven. For now God has given us spiritual gifts to use and He says they are irrevocable. Romans 11:29 says ..For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
I agree 100% with what you said. People specially in the pentecostal church want to "feel" and in search of those feelings and mysticism they blur the lines between Christianity and new age. God bless!
I'm actually debating this with several people. There seem to be multiple scriptures as you mentioned supporting continueationalism. There even from the mouth of Jesus Himself saying "these signs will follow them that believe". Could you possibly provide me a couple scriptures that say the gifts have actually ceased. Not just opinions and personally drawn conclusions from men.
Thanks! God bless!
I felt this way watching the video, too - for such a big topic and as much as I appreciate ABS even when we disagree, I don't think this was one of her more well-supported points. Especially for something she agrees is a big topic.
@@WalkWithGod Exactly my point.
The Bible is the Word of God. When we don't have any actual scripture to support our "doctrine". We then have a tendency to use man's opinions and our experience and or lack of experience to support it.
And if there is also clearly plenty to support an opposing view, perhaps we(myself included) need to humble ourselves, be "willing to be healed" and reevaluate our beliefs.
Be blessed brother :)
@@seanvann1747 You're not going to find any scriptures that clearly teach that the gifts ceased. Not when they're studied in context anyway. 1 Corinthians 13 is normally the passage I've heard cessationists turn to. They suggest that this text is saying the time of completeness is the canonization of Scripture and the end of apostolic age even though Paul is clearly referring to the second coming of Christ and the subsequent ushering in of the New Heavens and the New Earth.
@@SpencerConway
So would you say that these people would fall into the category that Paul was talking about to Timothy when he said this..
2 Timothy 3:5
New King James Version
having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
Paul says that that in the these last days perilous times shall come.
People will be lovers of their own selves,
believers in thier own experiences rather than the Word,covetous, boasters, proud, unthankful, unholy, have no love, etc.
Would you say that it is possible that they are an example of a people that is denying the power of Holy Spirit and even possiblity "sinning against Holy Spirit" in the process?
Be blessed my brother ! 🙂
I recommend reading the 4 Views book for Biblical positions on each of the stances (cessationism, open but cautious, pentacostal, and 3rd wave/charismatic. HA! Right after I posted this, she mentioned the book in her podcast! These Four Views books are awesome for Christians wanting to look at the best cases for differing positions. read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asin=B004VSDF2W&preview=newtab&linkCode=kpe&ref_=cm_sw_r_kb_dp_VcPrFbSMY1SWM
Jesus told the disclipes of John the baptist
"Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”
Lord Im not offended. I actually want to see more of it 🙌🙌🙌
I am totally agree with you in how the “prosperity movement” abused the “gift s of the Holy Spirit”. Our enemy, Satan works undermining the message of God, he cant destroy the church, but will try to water-down the power of the message. At the same time we need to understand that Mark 16: 17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe, in my name shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues, 18 They shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them, they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I was a missionary overseas for 30 years. Many would come to God because the miracles, a church needs the power of God, Jesus told the disciples “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you… I myself experienced the revival in Argentina. I was 15 years old when I became a believer and saw many miracles in my home town. The gospel advanced because people experienced “ the kindness of God” trough healings. Of course the biggest miracle is salvation! In one of the meetings my friend received the gift of tongues. My dad was from Italy and moved to Argentina when he was 20. My dad was in awe to hear Miguel praising God in Italian. Miguel never studied Italian language before! It was just like Acts 1.
I also talked with many other missionaries around the world. Some of them also in the medical field. They have seen demons manifest and had to learn how to pray…
And,
IT'S YOUR CHANNEL!
I think what we need to understand is that the Holy Spirit is the One in control of us. We fully submit to His will, not the other way around. His gifts haven’t ceased anymore than His fruit. Both are deeply needed in the church. If we are truly submitted to Christ’s Holy Spirit then He will move thru us and cause us to use whatever gift He’s given us at just the right time and place It’s needed. I earnestly believe this is clear in the life of Christ as well as His followers. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not ours to use in any ole way at any ole time just cuz “we” want to. When I was little, my parents gave me a bike. But there were rules. I couldn’t just ride it whenever I wanted to and I couldn’t ride it in certain places. So it is with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As a believer, I’m more interested in Him cultivating His Fruit inside of me. Tho I do desire His gifts. Perhaps if He will mature us in His fruit, He will also give us more opportunities to use His gifts. Just my thoughts.🥰
Allie I have just started this video so I do not know if you will address the Kundalini Spirit that has invaded the church but I will soon see I guess.
Praying for the Spirit of unity to break out! It's so much better than the critical spirit and our eyes get opened to the true heart of our brothers and sisters and we are able to celebrate and learn from one another and no longer hold on to the twisted stories and offended experiences that will always be there. Different streams in one mighty river of God seeing the gold in each other and revealing Jesus through our love.
It would seem that your definition of unity is not from the Bible but from common usage in the world.
There's definitely a lot of seeming going on, yes. Love believes all things and assumes the best ❤️ blessings
I appreciate your research and just your willingness to discuss what you believe Allie. Thank you.
While I do agree about bethel as I am a previous student, I do not agree that the gifts have stopped... Well, I come to share the good news that i am blessed to speak our heavenly language. 😌
Just as we warn people to day about the false prophets, we must encourage our True Prophets. Doesn’t make sense that one would exist without the other. If that were the case, than why would we warn people?
I see your point, truly I do. But, we cannot believe “partially”. Meaning, we can’t say we believe in miracles “a little bit” but it only happened in biblical times... It’s a bit of a contradiction.
Either you believe in miracles, signs, and wonders..... or you don’t. I hope that makes sense.
Thank you Allie, for all that you do. You definitely have taught me some good stuff on the episode. Blessings to you.
Focus on self is a big clue.....
Great Message Allie . I shared with my Daughter
I would love to hear thoughts on the verse that says we will do the same works of Jesus and even greater! (John 14:12) I didn’t hear her address that in this video and I feel like that verse specifically supports the stance of continuation.
Restoring a sinner to Jesus is a much greater work than bringing the dead back to life.
As someone that grew up in a church that is very similar to Bethel, I have seen Bill Johnson live and enjoy their worship music. I’m not a cessationist, but I thoroughly enjoyed this podcast. I have always felt that more often than not, so much emphasis have been put on the gifts, and not enough on the study of the word of God. “The Supernatural” has taken a place that is very dangerous.
I appreciate your work Allie!
I wonder if Jesus was a continuist or a cessationist? Genuine question? I figure when I am not sure I always look to him as my example.
Great video Allie... handy when sharing with friends who are caught up in these unbiblical practises.
If the “Cannon” is complete and closed and God has ceased writing the Bible, then the office of APOSTLE has ceased. If they are Apostles today, then we need to have them write us the new scripture God is moving on them to REVEAL .... Their “word of knowledge” is New Bible... And the Mormons can have more respect for the new revelation their “apostle/prophets” received... I personally do not think anyone is spoken today as He spoke to the Apostles who were moved upon and wrote scripture... You are doing a good job with this EXAMINATION and Reasoning in precision and cutting straight through these topics....
Amen:)
If you don't speak in tongues, I feel sorry for you. There is sooo much power in it for our daily life. Listen to Andrew Wommack's teaching and be free.
While I am not a Calvinist (I believe that God is not willing that any should perish) I do like the way she summarizes the word of faith movement.
She's absolutely clueless about the WoF.
@@JewandGreek No, you are. You claim that EW Kenyon didn't influence wof but your hero Kenneth Copeland was praising his books not long ago on his television broadcast.
Im curious to know how Allie reconciles the 2 witnesses prophesying in Revelation 11 with cessationism, seeing as though she also holds to historic premil.
The tribulation period is a different dispensation. It will be a time of Jacob's trouble. The prophecies for Israel and the second coming will be resumed. See Acts 15, also Romans 11.
She can't because cessationists teach a doctrine of demons and deny the Word of God. It is pretty simple and very tragic.
First I want to Thank you Allie, for honoring, understanding and articulating a view that you disagree with: continuationism. Moreover, I think your podcast shines like a bright light in our darkening culture. While I agree that there are some underlying problems with Word of Faith teachers Copeland & Hinn, you seemed to ignore (or failed to address) some of the more challenging scriptures that underlie these kinds of teachings. Some of these include:
1st John 3:9: No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he CANNOT KEEP ON SINNING, BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD..
Matthew 5:48: You therefore must BE PERFECT, JUST AS YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER IS PERFECT.
John 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ASK WHATEVER YOU WISH AND IT WILL BE DONE FOR YOU.
John 14:12: “Truly, truly, I say to you, WHOEVER (not just apostles) believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.
While I agree that there are some self serving concepts that seem to be wrapped up in some word of faith teachings, It is the Bible itself that promises seemingly impossible things. Many other examples of this kind of "blow your mind" Christianity is taught throughout the NT. Consider the upbraiding of the disciples by Jesus when their boat was sinking, and again when he claimed that even a tiny amount of true faith would move a mountain or cause a tree to be planted in the sea. Again consider Jesus teaching about the wind (or Spirit of God) that blows where it will and so is EVERYONE who is born of the Spirit. We are expected to be perfect as the Father is Perfect. We are told we will do greater works than the Son has done and that we will move like the Spirit moves. We are told that we are born of God and are brothers and sisters of Christ. Does the Bible say these things or not?
Granted, these are hard sayings and they can be hard to reconcile with our lives as we have experienced them in the Western modern era. However, before you criticize your brothers and sisters who are trying to walk in the fullness that these kinds of supernatural teachings of Jesus and of the apostles suggest, and before you confidently assert that your fellow heirs in Christ are heretics, and before your lump Bethel in with the self serving aspects of Word of Faith teachers, take a step back and ask yourself, "Have I FULLY understood the high calling and supernatural nature of the gospel as it is laid out in the NT?, Have I come to terms with these hard sayings OR if not, have I adopted a humility in my consideration of my brothers and sisters in Christ that tolerates or even praises their greater degree of spiritual risk taking and faith than I, in my imperfection have been (so far) able to adopt?"
The business of identifying some errors (e.g. Destiny Pants) of some believers and then exposing the entire group to shame or scorn, is foolish and does not honor Christ or protect the church. Surely you have made mistakes, some of which you have yet to realize. To have them trotted out as a means to discredit your broader ministry or its obvious power would be wrong. I note also that we will give an account to Jesus for every word we speak - especially when we are teaching (as you are) and when we are critical of our fellow believers.
I grant that miracles are rare, maybe exceedingly rare in our current time and there might be a variety of reasons for this. However, I disagree with your approach that believers can either be cessationists or cautious continuationists or heretics. Is there not room in Gods kingdom for those who would rightly dare great things for God - who would risk their reputations, risk scorn and worldly criticism to walk as Jesus encouraged Peter - when he asked him to step out onto the water? Or does that provide no timely instruction for believers of this era?
And what of the 400 years of silence that preceeded Christ's powerful appearing? Those who assumed that, based on their experiences of the past 400 years, no miracles could ever happen, were harshly criticized for their unbelief. Cannot God do different things in different eras? Might not, in light of the growing darkness in our culture, God be doing something special? Yes, the church is messy, and yes, like you and me, Bethel and every other church is imperfect. But I encourage you to slow down in calling people heretics, when the Bibles teaching calls for great exercises of faith, humility and the unity of the body of Christ.
Beautifully and wisely articulated.
I've read through quite a lot of comments down below. We thank God for all the wonderful testimonies of healing, however... All those healing testimonies have one thing in common, your were prayed for or you prayed and were healed. Or you experienced an overwhelming presence of God which resulted in your healing. However, none of that affirms healing as a spiritual gift, as the way the apostles did. So if you're using it to justify continuationist belief then it still doesn't add up because that was God answering prayer without manifesting through a fellow disciple which you physically received healing from.
Verses that back continuationism :dozens
That back cessationism : 0
(unless you take tongues will cease out of context of the timing it gives in the same chapter)
Thank you Allie - does your discernment regarding listening to John Piper's teaching hold current, still?
I’m not a cessationist, but I do believe most of the tongues we hear about in churches are fake and emotionalism. Bethel definitely is way out there in theology, especially the NAR.
But, I do believe God still does miracles and can do so and chooses sometimes to do so.
Karri Compton exactly!!! Search “Crack Your Bible - praying in tongues” on here. She did a whole series on this that explains everything really well! 💕🙌🏻 you should definitely watch it.
There are three types of Biblical speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues is specifically mentioned as a sign, a fruit of the Spirit if you will, that someone is a believer. We don’t speak in tongues to become saved, we speak in tongues to SHOW that we’re saved
“And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;” - MARK 16:17 ESV
In 1 CORINTHIANS 12:30, Paul was specifically speaking about “not all speak in tongues” as their public gift for the common good of the church!
“To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” - 1 CORINTHIANS 12:7 ESV
Genuine question: have you ever been to a church service at Bethel?
I have, was there for 3 days, went through there healing rooms ministry also, it was very good experiance.
I have, and it felt very cultic. They attracted people to the ministers instead of Jesus. They have gone astray...
I have and it is complete heresy.
Religious people hate Bethel because there is much freedom in worship, they have dance artists and prophetic worship artists that paint during worship. They encourage prophecy, healing and gifts of the spirit. Bethel is a beautiful church, no one is perfect but there is also an open portal to heaven at Bethel where angels ascend and descend.
I have, I saw young people reading their bible nonstop. It challenged me.
I knew exactly where you were going as soon as you mentioned someone giving a prophecy about "your dad dying in 12 years..."
The way I see it, it's obvious that not every Christian would have the same gifts. Perhaps the continuationists have form a community based on their shared charismatic beliefs and the cessationists in the same way. I think that the end of the day, the gospel is still accurate on this issue and it's still played out the way the bible says it would. Some will have certain gifts, some will have others. Personally, I'm cautiously continuationist😁
One question. Have you done any research of Classic Pentecostalism? You might look at the Theolpgy of the Assemblies of God.
I'm confused. You said you were open to correction, I post a link to a rebuttal, and it gets deleted? 🤔
Well now . . . Let's just try this again . . .
czcams.com/video/gGeAfyxkIUg/video.html
Hypostatic union doctrine says that Jesus took on the form of a man while still holding to his divine nature. He was fully God and fully man
Hailey Keller .....whilst you are correct, why not just qote what the bible says about Jesus - Son of Man, Son of God, and require people to study through the lens of the people he came for, what these terms mean when applied to him.
The church has done so much in its attempt( especially the church fathers) to remove any semblance of its Jewish root, that sometimes its hard to understand what some Christians are even talking about
MR. FITTA I’m not sure where you’re getting at. I was stating a doctrine based off of what the Bible says about Jesus. It has nothing to do with removing any semblance of Jewish root.