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Five Myths About Gaelic History
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- čas přidán 13. 03. 2024
- Five Myths of Gaelic History
This video is provocative, but with good intentions. Gaelic Ireland and its history are fascinating. You can find wonderful mythology and legends, mysteries, beautiful artifacts, ancient ruins, illuminated manuscripts, great literature, especially the poetry, and all sorts of historical events, battles, fights, betrayals, sex, immigration, exile, victories, defeats, great joy, and at times endless sorrow. Yet too often the history that appears, especially on the internet but also in other sources, is very shallow, misinterpreted, wrong, or based on dubious assumptions or prejudices. I look at here five myths about Gaelic Ireland and Gaelic history, with the intention of getting people of going to their libraries and reading some of the amazing work being done. Get reading!
Some References
Byrne, F. J. Irish Kings and High Kings
Campbell, E., Fitzpatrick, E., & Horning, A. (eds) Becoming and Belonging in Ireland ADc.1200-1600.
Duffy, P, Edwards, D, & FitzPatrick, E (eds) Gaelic Ireland c.1250-1650: Land, Lordship & Settlement.
Morgan, H., (ed.) The Battle of Kinsale
Morgan, Hiram. Tyrone’s Rebellion
Nicholls, K.W. Gaelic & Gaelicised Ireland in the Middle Ages
O’Neill, James. The Nine Years War
Simms, Katherine, From Kings to Warlords
Stout, Matthew, Early Medieval Ireland 431 - 1169
There are many other great books, feel free to mention them in the comments
#irishhistory #myths #ireland #Gaelic #history #medieval #pagan #religion #christianity #celtichistory #celtic
Interesting video. Perhaps you could do more. I long ago realised that when Celts are talked about many people seem to go to a fantasy Harry Potter land.
Thanks for your comment. I am planning to do more, perhaps a more positive one next time :-) Yes, people certainly do go to a fantasy land...
No such thing as 'celts'. Invented by a Welshman (of Norman descent) Edward Llwyd in 1680 based upon the myth of a 'pan celtic' (proto-Germanic) mother language which was really just 'flemish'/Brythonic/Platen-Dutch(Welsh).
@@theshamanarchist5441 You are opening up a can of worms there! One which I will get to examine eventually. I have read lots of stuff about this and understand where you are coming from. I think the idea of a Celtic language is useful (in lack of an alternative) and possibly for a range of peoples/groups, none of whom had, however, a Celtic identity. I also believe that this is a discussion that has to be done slowly, in part because the idea of Celtic is so imbedded.
CZcamsrs , I subscribe when you open up with a video not an advertisement.. I feel like we should support people who do this.
I can't control where the ad appears. If I monetise (though I am quite a bit distant from being able to do this), I will have some control over the placement of ads. For now I have none, it is annoying and getting worse...
because the work doesn’t deserve compensation? i can’t support you there. ☮️ ❤
I may have misread your comment (in part because it didn't appear under the video, but only as a notification, which cut off the end of your comment! Was there an add at the beginning? I have no idea how it appeared to you. I am not monetised (maybe some day) so CZcams throw in adds where they want, but I hope not at the beginning
@@patrickmaline4258 Thank you. I don't receive anything yet, but hopefully soon!
Love this video, plenty of food for thought. I often get a roll of the eyes when I say I'm a Gael and not a Celt 😂
If you could pick one book of those recommended in your notes above to get started with, which would it be?
Keep up the great work my friend.
Thanks for the lovely reply!! It is hard to pick just one book, cause much depends what you wanted to read about it
But let me try... I would recommend Stout, Matthew, Early Medieval Ireland 431 - 1169 for the this period of history. Simms, Katherine, From Kings to Warlords for the late Medieval period and Morgan, Hiram. Tyrone’s Rebellion for the end of the sixteenth century - though O’Neill, James. The Nine Years War is also very good. Only four!!!
@@forasfeasaThank you, that's even better, good to have a series to cover such a span. I really appreciate this!
@@seanfella You are welcome. Enjoy the reading
The theory of the milesians is that it was an addon to the myths to explain how Ireland became Christian. It was written by monks
Yes. it was written by monks and part was explicitly to locate Gaelic Ireland in a Christian/biblical world. However, many people overlook this and add on rather fanciful stuff (this can be easily seen in various Facebook pages). However, what I wonder is did some of this story predate its writing? In other words, was part of it pre-Christian in origin? (I don't have an answer... or when I do, I read something and change my mind, but it is a fascinating question..). Thanks for your comment
Enjoyed this a lot thanks
Eoin ! I have so many of those books but haven't read them so I bow to your expertise. Keep up the good work !
Thanks a million! I have to admit I was very nervous about this video, so I'm glad to get positive feedback. I'm glad we share a book collection and that I am not the only one addicted to history books... (and other books as well). Make some time to read them :-)
@ddr8215 Thanks for your comment. It is much appreciated (especially as I look at the videos youtube is offering me on the sidebar and look at the number of views they get, far, far, more than mine!) I share your frustration and maybe this video might change a couple of minds. :-)
Arguably one of the best documentaries I've seen so far! As a german, I've been inexplicably drawn since the age of five to gaelic history and culture (born 1967!) With only my brother and me gingerheads in an otherwise very german family ( he turned drummer, me bagpiper), there is so much "mystic mist" fogging irish-scottish history, when the actual facts are even deeper an amazing than the "ossianic" and Walter Scottish tales... (admittedly Scott frankly owned his romanticising in private correspondence, himself being a lawyer and history student, but then, the novels had to sell...) Being myself both a piper and having studied history and archeology at university, my personal hobby when playing the pipes was myth-busting, trying to explain why most conceptions of highland life are pure "Brigadoon BS"... with little success, I'm afraid, folk like their fairy tales too much! Sigh... Keep up the good work!
Thank you very much! Great comment. We were also born in the same year :-) Unfortunately I have no musical ability. Myth busting is needed more than ever these days :-)
@@forasfeasa weeel, being an above medium talented piper (with about 200+ tunes in ma heid...) I was considered quite well versed whenever meeting with service and auld service pipers in my time (piped since 1985 and played in the Inverness Royal Legion pipe band in 1989/90, great pipers aa' - wi' a wee german laddie amangst them... chukkle) but then,music? T'is an instrument of war, mind ye...
@@knutclau705 Very interesting!
@@forasfeasa och well, just a bit of pipers (aa' guid pipers are gone wi' the faeries... never met with one you would call :normal , at least the real vood ones!) and reenactors lore, many could tell you even more uncanny stories! As I had the pleasure (and bewilderment) to listen to, many a tale of taishtr, the second sight, too! I'm so grateful to have met with many old sodger, some from WWll, to listen to their piping lore and experiences! And NONE of the scottish gentlemen held grudges aginst me, a young daft german laddie, having the the cheek to wear a kilt and play the pipes! (Oh well, the breton folks neither...)
@@knutclau705 Sometimes to be gone with the faeiries is necessary, especially in the crazy life we live these days :-)
Nice seeing Hiram's books there. I studied under him in UCC. Great guy, extremely knowledgeable. Always wore red trousers.
His books are excellent - and his articles as well. He kind of started a revolution in the study of Gaelic Ireland. He is definitely a great guy
Very interesting ,a different way at looking at ourselves, from what we've been though and told,about our history
Thank you very much! I think it is always good to think about things in different ways, to reconsider our own perspective.
Wow! I've just co.e across your channel. The content is great and comments are (mostly) good solid questions. I'm a Sociologist of 69 living on the southern coast of Ireland. I'm looking forward to catching up on your previous videos and will be watching out for future episodes.
Thanks for the lovely comment! I am originally a sociologist, but I always loved history and the work of Charles Tilly helped be move into historical sociology and history! :-) Enjoy the videos!
Thank you for your comments about early Catholicism in Ireland. The suggestion some make to the effect there was an opposition between Rome and Ireland is spurious, even with reference to monasticism. Keep demythologizing!
Thanks a lot. Glad you liked what I said. I was a little nervous about this video :-)
This is one of your best episodes yet.
Now I want it followed by "five things we definitely know about Gaelic ireland"
Which needs to start with "what does 'Gaelic' mean"?
Thank you Colman... I kind of feel like starting to work on that now, except it might be 5 hours long, 4 of which would be answering (and unanswering) your question about what does Gaelic mean.... 🙂🙂
It means 'layed back' and 'joyous'. Not all self important (like the Germanics- the blue eyed invaders).
The culture of those that speak Gaelic.
@@michaelroche6181 Yes, but also involved in answering this question is where did they come from (and when), and when did the the Norse in Ireland become Gaelic (or did they), differences between Gaelic Ireland and Gaelic Scotland, and various other aspects. It is an interesting question
The (Celtic, Indo-European) native language of a people and the broader culture surrounding it. It's quite concrete. It still survives - miraculously - into the present day, though when we say "Gaelic Ireland" we're referring to a time when the island was under a broad swathe of Gaelic polities, where a Gaelic law code (Brehon) was in force and Gaelic customs prevailed. Some scholars trace the split in insular Celtic (ie with Brythonic) as far back as 800 BC, so it could theoretically encompass as far as there, however historians prefer to reserve it for the period between the dissolution of the High Kingship in 1169 and complete English suzerainty by 1601-7.
To what degree Gaelic speakers in Scotland fell under this same identity, and if so for how long, is the more interesting, even provocative question. Prof Duffy postulates that Brian Boru's Latin title implies dominionship over Gaels (Scoti) as a whole. A similar debate occurs with the Hiberno-Normans, with some pushing back on the "more Irish than the Irish themselves" moniker by stressing the loyalist identity of such groups as the Butlers. Little attention then is paid to the rampant Gaelicisation of the Norse settlers.
Very interesting thanks.
You are very welcome. Glad you enjoyed it
Cheers for that. I have the 9 years war book. Very good
It is. Eventually I will finish the one I am writing on the war... which is far too long by now, so it will be difficult to publish :-)
Hey, hadn't seen this, just looked after seeing the upcoming one. Really great to see it did so well... nicely done!
Thanks a lot my friend. Hope you enjoy it. I'm a little nervous about this one
Thanks for your hard work. 👍☘️🇮🇪🇺🇲. God bless 😊
Thank you very much!
I find that I have to agree with you you are 100% about the word celtic and other terms like germanic or slavic. However the use of the word has become so common place that I can often find it difficult not to use the word celtic when I describe the various cultural and linguistic links found throughout the atlantic zone. If I say la tene art most people here in north america have no Idea what I'm talking about I have a much greater rate of success at expressing my idea if I use the term celtic. Although that idea often has limited success as the idea of celtic often means wildly different things to different people and there are many myths and misinformation surround that term as well. It really can be quite frustrating.
Exactly. I share your frustration. I guess the idea for the video came out of this frustration. The meaning of some words (such as Celtic or clan) can become way too broad and people use it for vastly different things. In fact, they can even become a hindrance, especially when trying to talk about very specific things and help misinformation spread
One festure in support of your view of the connectedness of Gaelic society with English and French society is the foundation of two towns in south-east County Cork. In 1237-38 Bishop David McCeallaigh O Gillepadraigh of Cloyne founded and laid out the town of Cloyne, giving it a chater and the 'Laws of Breteil' and insisting that there be no division between Gael, English, Welsh, French or Flemish (in contravetion of the division into 'English' and 'King's Irish enemies.'
Shortly after, before 1299, the Gaelic Cistercian monks of Mainistir na Corann/Corabbey (now Midleton) copied the bishop's foundation by establishing their own town, located just 6 km from Cloyne.
We have contemporary written evidence for both places!
When I was growing up, we were taught in school that 'the Irish didn't live in towns.' Someone forgot to tell the bishop and the monks! Sadly, it's still difficult to persuade locals that Midleton is a 13th century Gaelic foundation with a 17th century plantation overlay.
Thanks so much for this wonderful piece of information. Too often little but important pieces like this get lost, but they really matter and should be much better known. Too often say the Gaelic Irish never built anything, but ignore all the buildings! Incidentally, my granny on my father's side was from near Midleton, relatively near, from Fermoy. (I do not know much about rivalries of the many towns in Cork, just hope it was not too fierce between Midleton and Fermoy)
Most exellent Eoin...
Every day a school day Thanks clann
Loved the shimmering light unique ✨️ 👌 to Kerry West coast
Thanks Kerry!
Thanks ,your view of history is very good and enlightening, I have recently been following this line ,most of our history would appear to have been corrupted for the benefit of those who have assumed control. Each nugget of information opens new doors
Thanks for sharing
You are very welcome. I'm glad you liked it. I see history as essentially a puzzle, one that we will never have all the pieces of. And one in which the traditional picture is usually wrong. But if we keep trying we can improve it
nice start!
Thanks a lot!
Thank you for this. With the prevalence of the reliance on Internet instant information, your critique of the facile views that enjoy such wide currency is very welcome indeed.
Thanks for your lovely reply. I was a little nervous about making this video, but the response has been great. I am glad I am not the only one who shares these views
@@forasfeasaIt's difficult to speak the truth when most people don't want to hear it because it doesn't support their cherished beliefs. But people often don't recognize how much those simplistic views undermine the complex humanity of any group of people, who are always much more than a static assigned identity-set.
@@ksiistoyiiwa Definitely. In fact that is something that really drives me crazy - the Gaelic Irish are seen as static and unchanging, what I call frozen in time. But they constantly changed, like all human groups
Top stuff as always! I've always liked the word "society" rather than "clan" (or the others). Makes it sound like a financial institution which, i suppose, it was!
Thanks for this! The problem when one word gets used too much (like clan) is that it comes to mean nothing. Some people get stuck to ideas and insist on them. They seem to fail to understand that societies change always. Glad you liked it
Outstanding points that all needed to be said. The history has all been so deeply wrapped in 19th/20th century folklore that it's created a parallel alternate reality.
Thanks for the comment. It definitely has!!
I do subscribe to the view that Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland references Patrick driving the pagans out of Ireland, massacre is new to me though.
Fine video.
Thank you very much. The massacre/genocide idea appears widely on various social media channels. It generates a lot of heated discussion (which could be why it keeps appearing, as it makes money for channels..).
@@forasfeasa Just my take but it seems to me that anything that seems to diminish Christianity will be popular online among certain people.
@@macker33 Yes, though at times it seems anything sensational is popular these days!
I doubt that. I think it is just another story to explain why there are no snakes in Ireland for people who knew nothing of rising sea levels after the ice age. There are many such tales around the world to explain phenomena that can't be explained without science. It may have been made up by the two monks who were charged with popularising Saint Patrick. I forget their names. Some people today take these legends literally. Like some thinking the giants causeway in Antrim is really to do with a lost race of giants. I think the people who made up these stories and the first people to listen to them knew they were just entertaining stories. There's an island, and unfortunately I can't remember the name of it or the Saint, that was supposed to be cursed by the Saint to never grow potatoes which is impressive seeing as the Saint had never seen or heard of them. I'm sure you know the last time Ireland had snakes was tens of thousands of years before Christianity.
I think the snake story dates from the 12th century. In fact it may date from Giraldus Cambrensius. Some of the stories we think as old, are actually not only 100 years old or so!
I enjoyed this, very interesting. I do feel in fairness a lot of the books I am now reading reflect what you describe, Ireland was always a dynamic evolving society. From Claíomh the re-enactors with superb representation of the evolution of Irish warfare from early 16thC to Mid 17thC. But so much is being explored that is positive. For me the most epic example of Irish warfare evolving was the Battle of Curlew Hills. Sadly for you no argument I agree mostly with you.
Thanks for your comment. I know Claoimh's stuff. I'd love to see them at an event, but I'm at the very end of Ireland! I actually think the Yellow Ford, the Moyry Pass, or the little known battle at Benburb in 1601 are more interesting. Though the Curlew Hills was very interesting, just over really quickly. Probably O'Donnell's men weren't even involved, cause of the sudden English collapse (a bit like a reverse Kinsale!)
Really neat video, I learned a lot! The House of Tudor is a particularly good example, since they are originally a Welsh or "Celtic" family, too.
I once came across an interesting theory that Celtic language took hold in Ireland (without any sort of obvious conquest or population displacement) because the previous language of Ireland in the first millenium B.C. may have been a related, but now lost Indo-European branch that was distinct enough be separate but related enough to facilitate a shift. It's speculation since this language is lost to time, but it would explain a Celtic influence from mainland Celtic Europe (in the Hallstatt/La Tene culture sense) but also perhaps not fully being Celtic even in that ancient sense.
My understanding is that the evidence of a pre-Celtic IE language in Ireland, to at least suggest the possibility, comes from the association of the Bell-Beaker material culture in mid 3rd millenium B.C., which is postulated to coincide with the spread of Indo European languages, and the evidence shows the material culture spread to Ireland during this time too. Not a smoking gun by any means, I don't think we'll ever know for certain, just interesting informed speculation.
Thanks for the great comment. Yes, the origin of Gaelic/Celtic Ireland is very hard to decipher. I intend in the future to do a video about that, but there is so much to read - many possibilities/theories. All very interesting mind you!
@@forasfeasa That is awesome, I am looking forward to it!
@@seamussc It will be a while though,, so much reading to do 🙂
Well, my own understanding, informed by the likes of Prof Cuncliffe, is that a branch of Indo-European spread to Ireland sometime from 2,500 BC, possibly from Spain, and evolved first to Celtic and then to Irish/Gaelic as it split with Brythonic by 800 BC. A bronze age Atlantic trading network (tilt your map 90 deg clockwise) may well have been behind the engine behind the language's growth. There's not a lot of evidence for the 500 BC narrative from Central Europe - too much has to happen too quickly.
@@pio4362 Cunliffe's work is very good. I like his idea of the Atlantic Celts (I think that is what he calls it). One of its advantages is that it agrees with Gaelic mythology (though that is another academic debate). However, one of the problems about doing a video about the origin of the Celts/Gaelic people is that there are competing theories. While I may have more sympathies to Cunliffe's approach, the other(s) also have to be discussed. So you end you with a lecture rather than a video! Maybe a series of videos is better.... I need to think a lot about this. Thanks for your comment
Veryngood.
Thanks for the second comment. Glad you liked it
Jaysus………just when I thought I knew something !
It is always good to learn new things :-)
@@forasfeasa👍🏻 aye lad ✅
Thank you for the reading list. I'll follow up!
You are very welcome!
In colloquial Irish, a noun with the definite article is frequently made of the surname of an person being referred to where there is no ambiguity involved as to his identity. E.g. a person called Ó Néill or Ó Riain, might be referred to as "an Niallach" or "an Rianach"etc. This was (and is still) used in conjunction with some Anglo-Norman and other surnames introduced in later times ("an Gearaltach", "an Barrach" etc.). The heads of at least some noble households were referred to in the same way ("an Cárthach Mór", "an Barrach Rua"). I wonder if the the use of the definite article with the English version of the surname is derived from, or related to, this use in Irish? Just a thought! Beir bua agus beannacht.
Very interesting point. Thanks for this. This could have been the reason the idea of The O'Neill emerged in the 19th century. However, it was used in English in the 16th century or earlier. It may have been used in Irish earlier, but not always (at least I haven't encountered it much) It is an area worthy of research.
new subscriber from Australia 🚬🐨
You are very welcome! :-)
Ar fheabhas! The concept of Clans always bothered me... was there a family relationship with the non-dominent surname in ALL cases? Did members of a "clan" not marry, migrate or procreate beyond its territory? Was inbreeding endemic?
"Lordship" makes much more sense, in context, and relates to other European politiies and societies as you explain. It's also a word I've seen extensively but it's not as emotionally grabbing as "clan".
Over simplification of history plus parochialism = toxic "nationalism".
You said it exactly in your last sentence. Or when it does not become toxic nationalism, it can become something meaningless and divorced from what the reality was. Thanks for the great comment
The gallow glass sometimes adopted the name of the lord they fought for.
@@patrickporter1864 This might be a bit sensitive but that practice may be akin to African American slaves "adopting" the names of their "masters". I am conscious that gallowglass were generally relatively powerful and adopting a lord's surname probably did not have the political implications ascribed to such things today, however. Context is everything and Eoin makes the valid point that all that happened more than 500 hundred years ago would have massively different construction when culture, language and world views are taken into account.
@@patrickporter1864 Perhaps, though many minor groups also connected themselves with more important minor groups. I can't give an exact example, but I know with the Cenel nEogan several other groups (falsely) claimed lineage with Cenel nEoghan. Mind you this happened elsewhere in Europe in various ways. In the 16th century the English claimed descent from Brutus of Troy (and I also remember being in a bookshop in Scotland 20 years ago and coming across a booklet called the Elizabeth II's family tree or something like that. Brian Boru was there. However, I'm sure if you look at this there are a lot of dubious claims in it. Lineage was important in an aristocratic society, but this does not imply that Gaelic society was a clan society. It was more complex than that
@@AnBreadanFeasaThanks for this point
Very illuminating. Can't fault it.
Thank you very much!! Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks lad I knew there was more to it in this upsidedown system we are in
Just subscribed aswell 👍
Thanks for the subscription and the reply! Glad you liked it (and thanks for the lad as well. don't get that this often these days!!!
@@forasfeasa I said lad because I feel your one of us, keep up the good work and good work it is 💯% Thank you
@@markmacthree3168 Thanks!!!!
The fundamental problem is the Anglocentrism that pervades so much of Irish historiography, even amongst Irish historians themselves sadly, taking any Elizabethan colonial writer's word as Gospel, whilst they can't be arsed to learn a single word of the indigenous language of Ireland and treat Gaelic sources without the slightest respect. There's a lot of interesting academic papers that have come out in the past 5-10 years on this matter. Imagine trying to become an expert on Ancient Rome without Latin.
Good point. However, I would say that this position is changing. If you look at the recent historiography there are a number of very good works (starting with Hiram Morgan's excellent Tyrone's Rebellion) that do not take the Elizabethan word as gospel, but also use English language sources to produce very good historiographical accounts. There is, however, a problem with the Gaelic sources on the 1590s. They are written using archaicism which hides the fundamental changes in Gaelic warfare. Most (such as the Beatha Aodh Ruaidh and the Four Masters) are written decades after the war. O'Sullivan Beare's account was written in Latin and in Spain. In fact, the only account of the Nine Years War from O'Neill's side was Peter Lombard's work written in language. While I agree with you that knowledge of Irish is important, this alone is not unproblematic. For example, look at the debates about late sixteenth century Gaelic poetry. While some authors (O'Halloran I think is the most obvious) say this ignores the political changes/context, others (Bradshaw/Caball) argue the opposite (I tend to agree with the latter two).
Good informative video, you've a new subscriber
Thank you very much. Thanks for the comment and the subscription and enjoy the videos
I wouldn't be too knowledgable on the subject but the introduction of "the" associated with Hugh O Neill and whatnot mentioned around the 5 min mark may stem from the Irish Language. To this day, it's quite common to take a well-known individuals surname, restore the original form of the surname and adding the definite article and suffixing "-ach" to the name and using that as a title for the individual, though I'd have no way personally to confirm this.
I used to think so too, but it is not really the case. If you look at medieval signatures/documents, it is O'Neill, O'Domhnaill, etc, not An Ua Neill... I think it came into English through a bad translation and then to picked up like many supposed historical conventions.
I must add that opposition to the term "Celtic" is a purely British phenomenon that is absent in German, Dutch and French scholarship. David Stifter even expressed bafflement at opposition to it's use for Irish language and culture. In my opinion, the hostility likely arose from British anti-Celtic sentiment around Tolkien's time and amplified personally by him, culminating in the 90s. In fact, "Celt" is one of only two or three names for Indo-European language families that actually originate in the respective language. For example, the original Germani were perhaps a Celtic tribe due to the fact that their kings bore Celtic names, meaning that possibly no Germanic speaker in history widely referred to themselves as or identified with "Germanic" until the 19th century. A far worse situation than Celtic for Irish.
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I don't agree about the influence of Tolkein (at least in Ireland). I think it is more because the word Celtic is overused/abused. I work with Early Modern Ireland, and to find people lumping Gaelic ireland in the 1590s in with Vercingetorix and Gaelic mythology is annoying. Throw in Celtomania and the use of Celtic in many ways (often meaning just non-English) and the word becomes almost meaningless. Moreover in terms of archaeology and the pre-Christian period, while it might be used, I think archaeologists have become wary of its use for a similar reasons. Gaelic is from the Celtic language family, but when it comes down to material culture, it can be less and less helpful (especially because too many people have preconceived notions about what it means). I know when I started university in the 1980s the Department of Archaeology in UCD was called Celtic Archaeology, now it is just archaeology.
@@forasfeasa I think the influence of Tolkien is not to be underestimated. English opinion of the Welsh language, beyond everyday mockery, is quite high and influenced almost entirely by Tolkien's. I have heard the point raised before that Celt is a synonym for the non-English population of Britain and Ireland. It's regrettable that a political slur from a country that, as far as I am aware, has only two university courses that teach Irish, Irish Studies in Liverpool (modern Irish, 1-2 modules) and ASNC at Cambridge (where Old Irish is an option only), should have such total influence over Irish academia. The Celtomania point is redundant. Nobody suggests Wagner's work should invalidate the Grimm brothers', yet this is accepted for Ireland.
Archaeology's role should also come under scrutiny. In the European mainland, most of what we call Celtic studies (though you object) is done through a combination of linguistics, analysis of historical literature and archaeology. In England, the entirety of this field seems to be conducted by archaeologists who have little familiarity with the languages or literature. I have no doubt they have some grasp on the languages, but as far as I have experienced it's quite primitive compared to the continent. This is most likely influenced by the above point about availability of language courses. It is relevant to emphasize the danger of having a highly archaeology dependent methodology. In my opinion, Britain is about 30-50 years behind in this respect. Several high profile and embarrassing events illustrate this, from the politicization of Cheddar man to the total debunking of Susan Oosthuizen's thesis by the the Max Planck Institute, the 50/50 emphasis on the Anatolian and Kurgan hypotheses or the seriousness given to the "Celts from the West" thesis, which is widely disregarded outside of Britain.
In conclusion, I'd like to emphasize how regrettable I find it that Irish scholars are so influenced by the culture of a country which treats the name of the language family from which Ireland's derives as a degrading political insult, whose archaeologists are both substantially unfamiliar with the languages and literature of the countries in question, and whose methodology has proved time and time again to be out of date, politicized and quite frankly embarrassing.
To clarify the point at the end of the first paragraph, that the work of Wagner should invalidate the Grimm brothers work due to a "Germano-mania" and that 19th Germany, Scandinavia etc. cannot be called "Germanic" in any respect whatsoever due to a cultural fad. This is ridiculous to any scholar in Germanic countries and, except perhaps in England, would appear as pure ethnic animus. The same argument applies perfectly to Slavic countries. If you attempt to say that Poland, Serbia, Bulgaria are not Slavic, I would recommend you brace.
I think you are missing the problem with the word Celtic. The problem is that Celtic means too much. It is now a synonym for the non-English parts of Britain, but also Ireland , part of France, parts of Spain and Portugal. At going back to classical times much of Europe. It also means a type of music, a language group, a supposed type of Christianity, a type of neo-paganism, and many other things. The Gaelic people did not regard themselves as Celtic, they had no Celtic identity. Yes, Irish is a Celtic language. BUT looking at the archaeology, while the Gaelic people did have some Celtic traits, they also were very different in many ways from the European Celts. Using the label Celtic obscures this. I do not deny the Celtic influence, but the heavy use of the label cuts out the voice of the Gaelic people, who saw themselves as Gaelic and not having any relationship with Wales, England, Gaul. Celtic means something, but when applied to Ireland, especially after Christianity, it obscures more than it enlightens.
May I suggest this short list of books as well -
Pre-Christian Ireland by Peter Harbison
Early Irish Literature by Miles Dillon
Ireland in Prehistory by Michael Herity and George Eogan
The Book of the Cailleach by Gearoid O Crualaoich
Ollam edited by Matthieu Boyd
Coire Sois edited by Matthieu Boyd
and last but not least - In Search of the Irish Dreamtime by J P Mallory
is mise le meas.
Thank you very much! Mallory's book is great, as well as Origins of the Irish. I only didn't put them in because I was trying to limit to Gaelic Ireland (and also to avoid dealing with the question of when the Gaelic people came to Ireland). I must check Boyd's work, I don't really know him. Thanks again for the suggestions 🙂
I'm guessing that you are from/in Southwest Ireland. My lineage is from County Kerry, and I think the other side us frim County Mayo. But I'm most familiar with the Kerry line, and Kerry is where I want to visit.
On the History, it's limited at best here and what little I can get is obvious in its "Mainstream Academic" influence, the "19th Century Theory based Paradigm and Linear Timeline" used as their foundation of fact.
I've found more going through the Ancient route, and bits that I trip over in my research of particular Ancient eras.
The reference to the "St Patrick and snakes" deserves a more intense look. "Serpants" is the correct word and Ireland has a far more ribust History than most imagine. Though limited, what I have uncovered is unfolding in the direction indicating that Ireland was once a Seat of Power. Totally undoing the propaganda that dep8cts Ireland as a lot of weak minded forest urchins. That was just not the case.
It is suspicious that a Monarchy was so intent on opressing Ireland.
I will share more later. I just wanted to offer aporeciation for your efforts, although I may not fully agree on some particulars, most I remain under the curve on s8nce resources are so difficult to e8ther get, or know what would be m8re accurate.
I wiuld prefer pre 1920 books.
Best Thoughts ...
Beth
Tennessee, USA
The writing of Irish history dates back much before the 19th century. You could say in begins in the 17th century with Foras feasa by Keating or the Annals of the Four Masters. Ireland also has lots of texts dating back much earlier, back to St Patrick's writings in the 5th century. The story of the snakes is a much later addition to the legends surrounding St Patrick, indeed, it was originally popularised by Geraldus Cambrensius (a Norman from Wales) in one of the books he wrote justifying the Norman Invasion/attacking Ireland. It is really nothing more than invented propaganda.
Be careful with pre 1920 books on Ireland and especially on Irish pre-history. Most are written by people who have no knowledge of Irish and blatantly invent things and have serious misconceptions about Irish society, trying to make it not part of Western history, when it was. It is better to go back to the original sources. Most have been translated (but not all well translated). These can be found on the Celt site I mention (CELT.UCC.ie). I am also not sure what you mean by a seat of power? There were many seats of power in early medieval and iron age Europe, as power was fractured and divided and governments lacked the means to enforce their law in wide territories. This would change in the later middle ages and especially in the post-Renaissance era
In relation to section on St Bridgid, I believe when you look at her story of the founding of her monastery and the spreading of the cloak which grew to cover a large amount of land, this appears different in style to other Christian stories. This to me would strongly suggest and older female goddess or deity was repurposed by the early Christian church to legitimise their new religion and bring in those people who worked the land and had a strong belief in female fertility styled goddesses. This earlier deity may hve gone my other names but the concept goes well back into pre Indo-European legends and beliefs.
POssibly, though this story is much later as far as I know, several centuries later I think. Brigid was a real person and in fact seems to have been close to becoming the patron saint of Ireland There appears to a rivalry between Armagh and Kildare. So, while I accept that some of the stories about her could (or did) echo previous beliefs, I think more was involved than the church repurposing old beliefs. In my feeling this would have been done by people rather than the church. After all Christianity took much longer to become established than thought, probably up to a few centuries. During this time or afterwards, previous beliefs, stories, myths, may have gradually been rework/retold/Christianised
You may be right and I can believe that the Irish were slow to accept the new order. The video is very well put together and is very though provoking. I lock forward to future videos.
@@brendanbergin5126 Thanks a lot. I think there is some archaeological evidence, such as 'pagan burials' from a much later date than used to be imagined. Glad you liked the video
Go raibh míle maith agat. 👍🏼👏🏼
Tá fáilte romhat.
Aodh ruadh and Hugh roe mean red hugh and calling Grace O' Malley a pirate queen is akin to calling Elvis the king of rocknroll,its not to say that some people do believe she was an actual queen but i would say the vast majority don't take it literally.They are the only things i have a quibble about i mean you are literally correct ,but my point is you are taking queen in this instance far too literally and red hugh is merely a translation of an irish name.
I understand your point, I am oversensitive about things like this, especially because I am a specialist in this period. Grainne O'Malley and Red Hugh have been transformed into figures they never were (and it is getting worse I saw an AI picture on a supposed history page on Facebook of two twenty something women supposed to represent Grainne and Elizabeth). Grainne has been cast as a nationalistic figure fighting against Elizabeth, something she never was. Red Hugh's portayal is less bad (just don't mention the Fighting Prince of Donegal). I think it is important to point these things out, as it is important to get the details rights. Yes, nobody considers Grainne a queen (I hope), but the Pirate Queen takes away from Grainne's actual achievements. Then again, maybe I am just too obsessed with this part of history and take it too seriously!
@@forasfeasa Certainly myths need to be challenged.St Bridgids day has been made a national holiday which is fine but its also being tied to Bridgid being a goddess which you say has no factual basis .To add insult to injury its a myth being shoved down our throats.
@@gallowglass2630 Definitely! I have to admit that I have been surprised by the reception to this video. While it is nothing like the number of views the big history channels get, it has done very well and got a good reception. It is goof to know I am not the only one concerned about these things
Google; Gaelic considered to be Ancient Hebrew; and the Tribe of Dan in Ireland
Irish or Gaeilge is not ancient Hebrew. The Tuatha de Danann - the people of Danu is a better translation, not Dan - were a legendary/mythological people. They are supernatural beings and some believe that they are the pre-Christian gods of the Gaelic people. To say they are the descendants of one of the lost tribes of Israel is a bit of a stretch. There is no plausible evidence of this.
So you didn’t Google it then !
@@Schitzoziris I did. I have read before about his works (and looked at them) and found them to be weak
I thought the Irish said Tuath for clan
They used various words, tuath, clan, cenel, and many others. There are some differences between them, but a lot of work has to be done to investigate the different uses
Ta@@forasfeasa
@@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf Tá failte romhat (Irish for your welcome.. a phrase for you to try over the weekend!)
Cheers mate. Might be hard with the drinks this wend@@forasfeasa
Cine, Fine
Nearly fell asleep after 2 min
Sorry to hear that. It is a more academic and longer video than I normally make...
Read Conor MacDari
Thanks for the indication and sorry for the delay in responding, I was away. I am ware of Conor MacDari/John Geran's work, but I really don't see any value in them.
The Tudors were of Welsh origin not English.
I know that but from Henry VIII onwards they had become English. (Mind you Henry VII was also English on his mother's side)
It surprises me that the Gaeltacht placename of Baile an Sceilg is represented here by the meaningless "English" transliteration (0:39) on a youtube celebrating Gaelic culture. postcolonial convention?
Thanks for your comment. Nothing to do with post-colonialism. I used the English more out of force of habit. But thanks for pulling me up on it. It is something I will think about.
The gaeltact goes on from Islay to duthaich macoidh in Scotland not from Kerry to tir connail.
I remember when I was five year old on the beach at. Traigh liath and thinking that the flotsam from the Americas the Atlantic would be better renamed the Gaelic Ocean from Ireland west of Scotland Faroes Iceland and tir nan og or Americas and their gaelic connections. Gle mhath.
Until the end of the sixteenth century, the Gaeltacht covered Gaelic Ireland and Gaelic Scotland. It was the Gaelic world. The reformation, Elizabeth, James, and the events of the seventeenth century which destroyed Gaelic Ireland broke it. Since Irish independence it has been used for the official Irish speaking parts of Ireland. I know the word in Scots Gaelic is slightly different, but to be honest I don't know when the word began to be used in Scotland in the same way that it is used in Ireland, or if there were any benefits from this. My mother grew up in the 1940s in South Kerry and where she lived was classified as a Gaeltacht meaning that the children in the school got treats (basically more milk and biscuits) which the non Gaeltacht schools did not receive! Unfortunately in the early 1960s the government killed the South Kerry gaeltacht, reducing it to a few scattered areas...
I like your point about the Gaelic Ocean, a very apt name indeed.
Thanks a lot for your comment, it was most interesting
@forasfeasa nuar bha mi og,furich mi ann Londubh Agus ameasg na sean daoine bha torr ghaidhlig.
When I was young I stayed in the wee village of Londubh amongst the
Older folks there was plenty gaelic.
Although iam a borderer I have some gaelic I see the gaeltact extending over both countries and abit of a new gael or an ghael ur.
I should also mention that I purposefully did not bring Scotland in to this video. Although I have a reasonable knowledge of Scottish history, especially Early Modern, but I lack a detailed knowledge of early medieval Scotland. I also didn't want to get into a fight with people who are obsessed with the idea of clans or Outlander (I see a lot of both of these on CZcams and facebook).
@@grahamfleming8139 Ca bhfuil Londubh? I like the name of it because of its meaning (blackbird). Yes, the Gaeltacht does cover both. However, I have to admit I need some basic classes in Scots Gaelic. It and Irish are close, but also different. I am also much more positive about the long term survival of both languages than I used to be
@forasfeasa one of the meanings of Londubh is black bird.but in this case it is black swamp from an old gaelic speaker to distinguish it from London or brown swamp in England.
A lot of Irish people get up set about Derry and it's prefix but it has a pure gaelic meaning .
As an Englishman I find Irelands history & all this stuff interesting but why does your Government want to obliterate it with all the immigration from places like Africa & the Middle East? You were fiercely independant against the English & kicked us out but have imported people you have even less in common with.Bloody confusing.
The Irish government does not want to obliterate Ireland. Be careful want you read. Immigration is high, but the vast majority of immigrants come from EU countries, the UK, and the Ukraine. It has brought benefits, especially where I live in the southwest, where the tourist and building industries are heavily reliant on non-Irish labour. It also helps rural communities field football teams again.
@@forasfeasaYeah right mate,you are talking to someone who comes from England & our capital city is no longer our own & that is spreading steadily throughout the regions.
Have you actually looked at what is going on in Southern Ireland & the "plantations" that they have dotted about? I should try pulling your head out of the history books & start looking about if I were you before it's too late & there is no more history that is your own.
It's always wild to me how the English can be both enormously proud of having been an empire who imposed their will on others worldwide and self-righteously outraged by "foreigners" living on "their" land.
How do y'all English manage the magnitude of your cognitive dissonance?
@@nicholasmorrill4711 I am completely aware of what is going on (and it is a bit ironic for an English person to lecture an Irish person on knowing what is happening in their country) This plantation stuff is crap. Indeed, many of the people who go on about it aren't Irish. Indeed several are connected with the loyalist loving British National Party. The leader of the Irish national party worked for Farage. Not people to listen to about Ireland. In Kerry the largest amount of immigrants are white English, up to 5% in some towns. Have a look at the latest census figures: 12% of the Irish population are immigrants, of these nearly 2/3 are either from the EU or the UK. Among the rest many are the Ukraine, Australia, Brazil, etc. In terms of colour 93% are white (ie white Irish, traveller, any other white). Here is the link to the CSO www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/pressreleases/2023pressreleases/pressstatementcensus2022resultsprofile5-diversitymigrationethnicityirishtravellersreligion/
@@forasfeasaIt's a fact that non-whites are coming to Ireland at increasing rates and they show no signs of stopping, exact same as every White country. If you love your people, then recognise the ethnic cleansing that is ongoing. It's just getting started, it will be much much worse in 19 years
How can anyone take this seriously? What is Gaelic History? There is no such thing.
If there is no such thing as Gaelic history, then a lot of people are going to be out of a job and many students are going to be annoyed. Nor would there be any Irish history, as Gaelic history runs from roughly 800 BC to the end of the seventeenth century. Today is St Patrick's day. The writings of the historical Patrick are the first written sources for the Gaelic people in Ireland. There are many more. And if you look at the images in the video, they are all of sites associated with the Gaelic Irish, religious settlements, monastries, castles, etc. There is very much a Gaelic history, just look at some of the books I mention or show.
How can anyone take you seriously, with such a ridiculous statement?
@@seanfella Thank you for your very succinct reply. Much better put than mine!
The history of the Gaels or Gaelic people. Why would you think that they have no history?
@@michaelroche6181 Good question....