Why DataMiner's SUCK The Joy Out Of VideoGame Communitys!
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2024
- Maybe just don't know something, thats ok ya know!!!
Dataminers SUCK... Well, at least the concept of it does anyway!
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So the real question is... who was the miner, and what did they ruin that you were working on?
working? on?
You think I do things in advance???
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Thanks for the good laugh :P
@@LetsSufferTogetherStill, did something happen or was it just a general frustration?
@@farresalt4381 Nah, just a legit issue in gaming in general i thought would make a good and divisive video I have had my own experiance with, but more annoying its prevelence and kinda opposed to how I like things
I really like your videos where you just talk about something in general without any gameplay rolling. This was a insightful and balanced take👍
I agree that datamining takes the fun out of discovering new secrets. But I think it's kind of misinterpreting how the eyes work if you think a custom game engine is required to hide a secret like that. The difference between the eyes and other easy puzzles that get datamined instantly is that the solution to the eyes is not in the code, only the encrypted message is. It's that simple. Even if you're using a common game engine like Unity, there's nothing stopping a small developer from hiding a hard puzzle in their game just by making the puzzle only contain the ciphertext, without any reference to the plaintext at all in the code. That's something I love about the eyes. Any player (with enough skill in the game) can find them, and datamining gives exactly zero useful information or advantage toward solving them beyond what some independent player finding them in game could do, assuming they have the dedication to search for them, transcribe them, and analyze them for themselves.
Thank you for widening my perspective and a different POV on it in for myself and others in that regard of possibilitys.
One question tho
If we can't (shouldn't ;) ) hack the engine, how would we know if there is or not useful stuff in there?
While my simple narrative is widened by your perspective, I still believe that, and I believe I said in the vid (If I didn't, ye I wrong :P) its about limiting the options for Devs, not stopping them. Should Devs be forced to become cryptographers to hide stuff?
@@LetsSufferTogether There probably is still undiscovered stuff in the engine, but I think it's more fun to figure it out in game than by reading code. Hopefully we don't get spoiled on everything...
You don't need to be a cryptographer to write a hard puzzle. Cryptography is just what people use to try to solve the puzzle, but designing a puzzle just requires creativity to come up with an encoding method. Game developers are programmers, so writing a function to encode some text/image/audio in some creative way is right up their alley. If the encoding method is especially creative (like not one of the well-studied standard methods in cryptography) then people could have a very hard time solving it without hints, even if it seems simple to the designer who knows the method already. I think this is probably the case for the eyes; Petri came up with a creative and novel encoding method for them, and it's so different from known methods that normal cryptography techniques have reached an impasse.
If dataminers are dumping story/lore info that would conventionally be tagged as spoilers, it should be so tagged. But beyond that, I just see this as an arbitrary line in the sand on the pandora's box that the internet has opened on gaming.
I remember, back in the day, when if you wanted the deep and thorough scoop on a game, you had to go out and buy a game guide, printed on actual dead trees. Being a kid at the time, the expense alone was a nontrivial barrier relative to my meager spending money, and ultimately since those print guides were licensed works there could still be secrets even the guide didn't reveal, if the devs chose not to divulge them. In those times, needing to figure things out yourself (or by talking to friends IRL, who might very well be making things up or repeating unsubstantiated rumors) certainly did add to the wonder, mystery, and challenge of games. (Granted, there may also be some measure of childhood nostalgia at play here, but never mind.)
But that was when the internet was still in its infancy. Now every game has a wiki where every scrap of information is thoroughly documented for easy reference, a mere Google search away. WIth or without dataminers, the mystery of gaming will never be the same. Whether the values on a wiki page were painstakingly worked out by ingame experimentation or just mined from the code makes little difference to anyone other than the guy producing it: Either way, given a sufficiently large playerbase, it will be posted early enough in the game's lifespan that 99.9% of players will have access to it.
So the devs of Noita intended people to watch a youtube video on the history of Finnish mythology instead of putting the piece of the world together as they play? Is that not the same cheapening the experience akin to watching tutorials and guides? Of course not, just as the moment to moment playing and experiencing the game adds another layer of information ontop of knowing about the real world lore that went into their thoughts during development. Personally it just rings incredibly silly to say my way of summarizing information is the right and only way and I have the right to gatekeep something I wasn't apart of making because it appeals to me.
It's just a symptom of burning knowledge and experience as capital to be competitive on social media and not a fundamental problem with understanding code or sharing information.
One can choose to watch a video or not, much like one can choose to understand its core message or not. Like this one, I think you swung and missed my intent being a bit defensive. Its not about gatekeeping, its about impact. If someone in a chat spews out reems of information which often has happened. Then another person has by being a part of the games community, unable to not 'unread' something, been told something they may have not had access to otherwise, and had NO say in its deliverence, which is TOTALLY different from 'tutorials' or however you defended it, also, the noita Finnish mythology compared to its IRL counterpart is not in game code info and an additional, not a core element and even then on top of that, is actually rarther seperate in a LOT of regards due to The Finnish + Alchemic history coming together to create something brand new, so the comparison is kinda silly. I do not say its the right way, only my way, I do not question individuals, only their impact on unsuspecting people who just want to be a part of something and then just get something they didn't plan on because some data monkey couldn't control themselves.
Did someone datamine the solution for the eye/cauldron puzzles or something?
as far as i know its really hard to do so. main reason why it hasnt been done yet.
AFAIK, Nolla (Noita devs) aren't fans of data mining either, so their biggest puzzles are likely going to be very clever in design, but also something they will patch in the missing clues for when they are good and ready, similar to the old Binding of Isaac ARG
@@cancermancer692the eye puzzle is placed in the game already prepared, so there is no theoretical way to datamine it
@@Rongina-ll are you talking about the lost thing? That got solved in a day or so after launch? Lmao
It's not a problem of data mining at all. It's a general problem of having access to internet where people have already played the game you're playing and watched the movies you're watching. Solution? Just avoid internet resources related to games you're playing or planning to play.
Thats certainly an argument... BUT :P
Thats a form of community gatekeeping? Is it not?
"Just go hide in the courner while we enjoy some of the best things about gaming"
@@LetsSufferTogether I see it more as stepping in dog poo on purpose, then blaming others for it
I made guides for Magicka 2 and Mages of Mystralia by playing and taking notes because I genuinely wanted the information and thought others could benefit from it without going through the testing themselves. I have no idea if those games got datamined and wikified, but that doesn't affect me, as the analyzation and optimization are the meta experience I enjoy the most when it comes to the 'gaming experience'
Sounds wonderful :) Aye, I do come from this as my experiance as a streamer across multipul games. and they kinda auto entitlement that some data feels it can just spread without asking first. Maybe Roguelikes and a few others just bring it out :P Appreciate the comment :)
Dont know about anyone else but thats why i dont go to most game communities, i dont even like spoilers that much and try to enjoy the story the game offers.. if i do go to a community to talk about a game then i like to have the warnings ahead of time so i can decide if i want the spoiler or info.. and i try to do the same for others.
I'd like to add what David Lynch once said: you have to keep the mystery, if the solution is revealed, people stop caring about the damn thing
Sounds like a smart dude :D
Highly disagree and depends on the person
@@Baddaby when life loses magic, it becomes less than just information, it becomes unfun. Turns out, not knowing the inner workings of a game completely can make it more fun, so with life.
@@MCNarret say for yourself. That's far from being a rule and a lot of ppl have fun exactly from knowing the inner workings of a game. Hell, the entire speedrun community is based upon that
@@Baddaby and once you figure out all the puzzles and methods, once it just becomes step by step execution and development stops, when you no longer ask if something is possible because you know the answer already, is it still fun? I used to think that was fun, but what it is is a trap, you cannot unknow something, and once you learn to much, you lose something.
counterpoint: technology vs nature, knowledge vs wisdom, data-mine vs playtime.
it sounds like you're describing a way to gain and manipulate knowledge that maybe the gods didn't intend, and now you want to fight back against it to preserve the supremacy of nature. I think I know a game you'd like to play...
Given the perfect nature of this comment... Now I need to start calling dataminers HiSii don't I XD
This definitely depends on the nature of the game being datamined. A game with story and mystery that is essential to the enjoyment of the game, it makes sense that data mining is terrible for the community. But sometimes data mining is extremely useful and interesting to the game for people who want a more technical understanding of the gameplay itself. The main thing I think about is a game like Minecraft. Data mining things such as the spawn requirements for a mob allows for the entire community to have a better understanding about the core mechanics of the game. I don’t believe this type of datamining is spoiling the game. It is arguably enhancing it.
Different games have different goals, and so do communities. Theres even different subsections of communities within the same game that could have different views on data mining. Speed runners vs lore historians may have different views on datamined information. Finding out movement tech through datamining may be useful to players whereas finding out secrets would be spoiling the game for everyone
Dude it's been two years since I lost the game, not fair T_T
I agree. I think that people have this sort of 'uniform' view of things; that everyone who buys a game is buying it for the same reason. However, some people are paying for the mystery, some for the challenge, some just to relax and play the silly Finnish game. Likewise is there a spectrum of how much a person will care about spoilers. As you alluded to, the people who are paying for the mystery, who care about the spoilers are the ones most affected by them. Noita is one of the few exceptions I have encountered where people will encourage and value the journey of learning. Sadly the 'norm' is to play a game through once and learn all of it and then move on, a sort of disposable mentality. Thank you for vocalizing your thoughts and sharing them.
Was a pleasure to do so ^^
Aye, I would have liked to complicate my narrative a bit more going into the multi level player bases and how dataminers are kinda antagonistic to many others way of enjoying games IF they do as I said. However, I already had to many slides and length to really go that way as opposed to keeping it simple
I would like to say, there are good miners. I know many who understand my POV and stay away with info dumping and still enjoy my own personal adventure even if they know the result of it all before I get there, watching my own process.
HOWEVER, I feel its an endless cycle of new dataminers coming in and I need to educate them all over again on my own house rules.
not necessarily a data mining thing but a general "optimize the fun out of it" kinda thing.
like, i never appreciated the bridge boss cheese strats with the tablet, etc. and i am glad this stuff gets patched out.
turns out noita is quite obscure and weird in its ways which aggravates the "fun getting sucked out" situation. the puzzles are dev's way of sticking it to the nosy folks (which is pretty... based?)
i guess my opinions and views are also kinda narrow on this topic, i have never been a big fan of exploit-y stuff and even mods/UGC in my roguelike games.
I think it would be cool if the datamining communities had their own bubble which they share stuff to each other, and then once they get something big they release cryptic messages and hints just like Nolla, would be cool. That way they can do their ritualistic find-post cycle without harming the enjoyment of discovery of the overall community 😅
Many of them do go find a place thats good for communitys,,, and many of them don't XD
Dataminers are not monolithic. Even if some of their impact CAN end up being on communitys end up being.
Sometimes, all it takes is that '1 person out of all' concept I talked on to be the deathnail
Hi as a video game creator it feels like me and the team need to think allot about data security so this video hits the spot for me last night we talked about how the mentality of getting things easy kinda rule over video games
Im glad you talk about this subject ❤❤
I'm glad it did. While I ain't a flashy memey content creator (on purpose really, not my style to distract from the ideas with all the 'flash'). I do feel if I speak up on something outside of core gameplay or theorys, I do give it a lot of thought from my own POV and impact. Even if I end up trying to keep it simple overall in a VERY complex narrative.
You can play into the data concept, however, I feel it offers just as much restrictions to Devs who will want to see a passionate community to form around their art
Yeah Binding of Isaac was a victim of such a Buzz killer move, The community literally missed a interesting ARG to unlock a hidden character
There is no words for how much i agree with you. Even in times i didn't find problem in that, it was clear for me that it was overall invasive to the game and mostly with purposes of being "the ones" who has the information rather than just giving guidance about something in game (and i didn't find problem because i thougth with myself on how i would come up with that - what a fool i was). However games like rainworld and specially noita (where the whole existence of your character is literal suffering 24/7) really made me look back, and just try to be with the game, enjoy the experience and maybe do my own silly experiments :D. The reward is much higher than just extracting from a code some set of lines, working on it (probably very hard) and then it's done you know? What supposedly was a game mechanic/secret is now an programing/coding exercise, and come on, we aren't at an data science course exam here lmao. And I really suspect that Noita thougth ahead about data mining because the whole alchemy thing, the secrets, the discipline, the rewards, the oath of the alchemists is (from my perspective) the counter-proposal of data mining. And I am not saying that it's easy to be a data miner (otherwise how it would be the minority in game communities with the status and the title it offers?), but that gaming is an ritual that should have more serious respect. As an anology, if a game is art, one can't just take Mona Lisa from the Louvre, see closely and put their fingers on it just because they want to know how it's done or even worse, to just have this master piece upon their little dirty hands for whatever purpose! There is no way someone can just own it! And again, it's not like no one can't do anything with an piece of art, that it's so high, so pure, so sacred, but PLEASE we should be more patient and careful, if one do it, at least do it with a heart, responsibility, and so on.
Huge thanks Let's Suffer Together and also for those who read all of this (yeah, may the streamer have double thanks XD)
hard disagree, if people want to solve puzzles on their own or with a small sub community they can but if people choose to go to the internet at large they've already decided to just get the answer and frankly I dont see the difference whether the person who originally got the answer "cheated" or not. even for the people actively working on the puzzle I dont see how someone data mining is different to someone else solving the puzzle especially given that people can just lie if they solved it "legitimately" and if datamining can bypass a complicated multi stage puzzle then frankly that means that the puzzle failed to make a puzzle that accounted for all the tools the solvers have at their disposal. is this frustrating for the puzzle makers and the people who would prefer to solve the puzzle without datamining? of course. is this a fundamental part of this kind of puzzle design also yes do i think its a bit hyperbolic to make this a big deal also yeah. its a tool that trivializes some puzzles and makes others possible. like any other tool available open the public designers of publically accessible puzzles need to make sure using it doesnt immediately break a puzzle meant to be solved by the collective work of a massive population.
"go to the internet at large they've already decided to just get the answer" A form of gatekeeping, thinking those who have the answer (not from the game but from the spolier data deserve to spread it anywhere they want?) Because that was what this is about. I agree with you on quite a bit of what you say because you missed my point... they can do what they want where they welcome. However, I'm talking about a culture that has develpoed of them thinking they allowed to push that data where they not welcome,,, before asking (as it is a spolier is it not?) and then feel all offended by it, and even continue to do it because they feel entitled to do so, because of how I explain in the video
Specifically with puzzles and datamining, you end up with a ring of keys and no idea which lock they go to. Then every single piece of evidence you run into has to get compared to all of that.
I've seen some games specifically cater to data miners. Remnant 2 had a class that could only be unlocked by data mining. I don't get the vibe that the puzzles inside of Noita were written with data mining in mind, as a result I think we are getting "gated" on things like the eyes and cauldron until the devs feel good and ready for us to solve it.
And it sucks seeing a community just rotten with people spinning their wheels and being so invested in their own theories. I joined the discord and just watch every day people getting turned away and discouraged because they didn't mention 83. That's not how you solve puzzles. Definitely not how you foster a sense of community.
Anyway, just wanted to vent about how discouraging it is trying to collaborate without getting clobbered by pseudo-cryptographers. 😅
sometimes its needed. if theres nothing(no hints, no lore, no explanation etc) in the game that tells you how to make X tic, than you need to dig into the game to find out how it works. for others things like new content or solving puzzles, secrets etc than imho they can gtfo
I'd say thats legit, although that would be bad game design.
Some peopel say Noita isn't 'single player' and requires outside info...
Those people are ain't seen wcasey and others do successful long big lore blind runs it seems.
Its a bit of both, is why I 50%50% it, in how the intent and usefullness of dataminers. However, the bad sticks in my mind being a streamer and all ruining a journey of discovery
@@LetsSufferTogether sometimes it can be intensional, too.
If the solution is found using datamining, it will ruin the entire search
Agree. Datamining is like reading the brief retelling of the book, instead of the actual book.
Something you would expect only from a person who isn't really interested in the subject.
And then spoiling that information...
Keeping the mystery alive is so important.
Well said, no play(work), no pay!
Now I’m off to “climb” Mount Everest with a teleporter…
Dude,,, that was like the best comment to wake up to XD hahahaha
As much as I prefer to game on PC, I was actually really glad that Spelunky 2 was PlayStation exclusive for a while first, just because of datamining so the secrets of that game could be discovered and discussed without datamining spoiling it.
Datamining has absolutely ruined participating in any lore related discussions on From Software games for me. People would rather take little bits of ambiguous, discarded, unused scraps of text found in the files than what is actually presented to them. They don't seem to understand that the developers and designers had the chance to include the stuff they're theorizing on, then *decided against it*. They don't seem to understand that stories go through iterations just like anything else. The story isn't finished in advance of everything else, they keep working on it late into development like anything else, and as a result traces of things used as placeholders and whatnot get left behind.
People seem to have this idea that the data is The Sacred Text or something. Whatever issue comes up, consult The Sacred Text.
Great video LST, I appreciate the discourse on this.
Thanks for your own input
I think you have a more “valid” opinion, but datamining has only felt good 15 years after a game has been forgotten. Outside of the spirit of further exploring a game that has been explored already. Not a game that got patched this month and then tell everyone everything they were going to find just fine on their own.
To me, it's like we're all watching a series on TV or Netflix, discussing what's going on and theories. Then someone goes and finds the books, skins through to find out the spoilers and posts them online.
Oh actually, we're all in a movie theater watching the premiere showing and one guy googles the script and stats yelling out spoilers.
Yes i did follow wiki to do secret so in that sense you could say i'm "lazy" or that i "suck" but yea who care ? The way i get fun is my busness only.
Noita is a wonderful game but it's secret are meant to be solve by a very specific niche of player, which is fine in itself how ever an insane part of gameplay is locked behind said secret.
If you like to discover secret by yourself go ahead, nobody force you to look at a wiki. Has for people spoiling stuff yea that's suck obviously, but you can rant about it has much has oyu like sadly it will not go away. (and i think this specific point is exacerbated bcs you'r a streamer)
Last part, has a gaming streamer you'r main activity revolve around spoiling, sure reveling the cessation trick isn't a big deal compared to spoiling the cauldron secret i do agree but it's on the scale none the less.
Well as you said before your edit, this is about involventary spoiling really in communitys, and a philosophy on gaming in general, so while you could argue my streaming is hypocritical, it isn't, because it is understood, and I try my utmost hardest to question what is a spoiler, on raids, questions in chat, and all sorts really, I do go quite far that an accidental ears may be spoiled on random spoliery topics outside of the title of the stream. I did say, individuals, do as you please on your own self, more power to you,,, also, I say the general princple is lazy, which it is, doesn;t discount your fun or anything to call it what it is does it? So, communitys, not the person. this is not on an individual basis tho, so any questioning of the idea on an individual basis is moot really.
'you can rant about it has much has oyu like sadly it will not go away.' Cheers,,, I did XD Also,
Also, I would disagree my streaming or YT is on the scale, that is all titled correctly and the relevent spoiler markers for non secret stuff. Also, in game tech known, is not the same as datamined stuff not found in game by players, if a dataminer spoileed a secret not found by a player, that does suck, they can do it, no doubt, but it sucks hard no one could use the beautiful game to create ideas instead of just breaking code, as they would need to do for noita secrets not known yet..
You say "very specific niche of PLAYER" Is a dataminer playing the 'game' to solve it? And if they spread it then? And a secret can not be re-boxed? Is that really cool, is that not something to speak out on and try and change a culture even if that attempt is futile, at least I ain't given up and accepted a bad state of affairs lying down? Your own language kinda derails that argument really unfortunatly unless you would like to continue adressing it further, which I welcome as an open dabate of corse :)
I respect your ideas to a point. I just don't think you really adressing my video here ma dude
@@LetsSufferTogether
Let me preface this by saying sorry if i offended you, if it turned out the be phrased meanly. This wasn't the point, i like your content i think you'r doing great noita stuff.
If you find all the secret by yourself, decrypted the glyph etc mad respect to you, even if you did half of it but like, it require ungodly amount of hours to do so. Most people cannot do that. I bet that hardly anyone that played that game actuali tried to decrypt the glyph by themselves. Noita is an "hard" game to get into and secret are even on another scale, but i think nolla game locking away core gameplay behind it is a design error.
Y don't think the way an information was obtain give value to the information in itself, maybe i missed the point of your video.
@@LineArckG Is all good ma dude, I debate hard ;) No offense given nor taken :) Hope you have a wondefrful day ma dude ^^
What does the End User License Agreement say about data mining? If they say nothing, then it seems to me like the devs intend for the community to reverse engineer the whole game, especially for a game like Noita. If it's prohibited, then the dataminers need to knock it off or get a steam/gog ban.
Devs in their EULA ain't responsible for a online gaming culture of how we all interact together, we are. This less about mining in general, which many great things come from, and more, as a diverse bunch of people, sometimes, not everyone is going to enjoy a community where info from the code is, without asking just pushed on everyone without warning. Quite a bit of my experiance as a streamer is they publish the code data in a live chat about a relevent or irrelevent thing about the game, apologise after they been told its not really our thing. I think it should be a question of politeness that does seems to be absent a lot of the time, and a culture of that impoliteness to ask first if its wanted, as people can't unread what is spilled over a live chat, and in that way, a lot of it is NOT treated as spoliers by themselves. I like the data sometimes, however, politeness is key and respect for a diversity in communitys wants and needs :)
Making this comment as I watch the video:
Datamining is only ever an issue if it bypasses community effort towards a puzzle (think 'The Lost' from The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth). This video is way too non-specific and judgemental. Most of the mods in games you love wouldn't exist without datamining.
This video might not feel as bad to me if you gave a single example anywhere in the video.
Also "Dataminers have mental deficiency" is a vile thing to say mate. Lost most of my respect there.
Are the dataminers in the room with us right now?
Good lord you're talking absolute nonsense. Spiteful old man yells at cloud. Can't keep watching this.
I respect that view, and was one I was expecting.
I agree, my style of ranting is not for everyone and comes from an internal passion for the subject, with flaws from that perspective in tow. The problem is tho, even if I did put in 'specifics',,, my own experiance is that if people ain't game to listen to a core concept of an idea from the get go and are in conflict with the idea, examples are useless to try to change minds. So I'd rarther just keep it simple
I disagree though, 'Datamining is only ever an issue if it bypasses community effort towards a puzzle' it has an impact on wider communitys and individuals impact on how they choose to share information on a micro level. Leading to a overall quicker loss of very human things many people love in art,, like mystery, a lack of something to bring an internal perspective over data and facts, which can strip the art away into the data.
"Dataminers have mental deficiency"
what I said is 'most people have'... including myself, which is true. Its a fact. Perspective on ourselves is often very flawed.
How is it vile to say that a mental perspective on looking on ourselves is, through mental process's,,, deficient, and lacking? When its literally true for everyone on earth in all walks of perspective?
Harsh? Aye, most likely.... Vile? Nah, not quite
Do you know why I choose to be non specific? I talk from my own experiance, to bring that experiance into example for you guys would lead to me outing individuals, which as I stated, would prefer not to do. I attack ideas, not people. Although I do agree, it could have been done and helped. But thats just my own mental deficiency leading to that ^^
One final thing, I went harsh because the impact I see is harsh. You are correct, Mods require mining, HOWEVER, that is additional content, totally seperate from the data spilling of the original content I was talking about. Is why I end up explaining its a 50/50 kinda deal. Here tho, I was concentrating on its flaws.
Also, to add,,, you might want to actually consider someone else's personal experiance before suggesting I'm 'yelling at clouds', which, incidentally, I did mention at the start of the video as an 'example' XD So i say again, examples of context go ignored by people who will disagree and find a way to delegitimise you in their mind anyway, whats the point of further examples for context?
Tbh, I think you have no right to say 'Its only a problem when...' Because you clearly don't respect others ideas of issues in the gaming community. What you meant to say is, 'Its only a problem for me when...'
Dismissing a valid opinion as 'yelling at clouds',,, to someone who works on building their own online game community for 5+ years trying to keep the air of mystery in a AMAZING game for others to enjoy the art. Realising people who may not want every bit of information published live in a chat people can't unread, after a section of the data-mining community (not all, like you say, modders ADD value to communitys) infodump every specific detail in a games code about what is happening and what they know personally, while I have to explain to every individual how not everyone wants that, on an individual basis who feels the need to info dump continuously, yet its a never ending battle because of the issue with the culture. Because that is the experiance you may not have, which needed to understand to realise beyond your own context to understand. That or you just think everyone is ok with how YOU like it?
Yelling at clouds... If anything my restraint is somewhat reasonable considering...
I think the issue is much broader than just data mining. The noita community has a spoiler issue - period.
I often watch new players play the game on CZcams/twich, and I can't stand how so many people can't help but start throwing information at the new player. Some might try to not be direct, but it's the same fucking shit. Things like "you should try starting a run and going up the mountain/tree", "you can get extra health at the beginning of the run *explains orbs*", "have you tried digging up the walls on the sides of the world", or straight up explaining how to leave the HM without collapsing it.
And it's not like this information is forced onto people like me, who aren't content creators. It's just that... a lot of the community holds this idea that "noita is unspoilable", "it's impossible to figure it all out on your own", etc. As a new player, reading all of that made me think it was ok for me to look stuff up, which I now deeply regret, (years after I first got a god run going / did all the quests for the first time). I only came to regret it after meeting a now friend who's been playing noita for hundreds of hours, but is still completely blind. They've found quite a lot of impressive secrets by themselves, and are slowly (emphasis on slowly) making progress on the larger ones. Seeing their notes and stuff was so cool! I think the flaw is the underlying assumption that, because the game makes figuring everything by yourself next to impossible, you might as well look the info up. I think that's wrong - after playing games like tunic and la mulana, who's communities are much better at not spoiling anything (generally - the steam community for la mulana can be a bit careless when new people ask questions, but I just didn't go there), I came to realise that _having only 50% of the knowledge, but knowing I found it myself feels a lot better than looking up all 100% of the knowledge_. And I know some people disagree with this base assumption, and I think part of it is that pretty much all of us watching this have been (mostly intentionally, but not only) spoiled on a lot of the noita secrets. The issue is, as you discussed, that this cannot be undone!!! You can't just "forget" information. I think the community (well, when I say "the community" I mean "the people in the community who share the philosophy I discussed") should try to discourage looking stuff up in general. Sure, some people (even me, in certain cases) would still do it, but it's much better left as a last resort. The "noita is unspoilable" and "you'll never figure it out all on your own" is just bad advice certain people give to new players.... Maybe I'm just sad I gave in and listened to those people... They're probably a minority, but oh well...
I'm a bit sleep deprived, so sorry if this felt like a ramble. I have a similar issue with certain rain world subcomminities (in particular, people on the subreddit can't stop spoiling mechanics to new players... even if they do it "indirectly", it's pretty obvious what everyone is hinting at 90% of the time), so it's definitely not unique to this game.
hm. Well, i have gotten in Noita my two roommates, and i was sharing some, although definitely not all info to them. On a lot of questions i answered like "You are not supposed to know yet" or "Try and find out", giving, although, more info to one of them who killed Kolmi and completed the run. I do not know if what or how i am doing is correct, but i try to not spoil them too much.
Noita fell of after The 1.0 update and maaaybe The Sauna, so it's whatev lel