A book of 1843 on Tai Chi Chuan list sparring as a training method, sadly after the boxer rebellion almost all effective trainings were discarted from Kung Fu
The Chinese Communist Party banning traditional martial arts was a pretty big deal too. This was largely because martial arts groups had been used as hit squads by all political groups for decades, but also because they had been seen, post-Boxers, as retrograde and, being honestly, ineffective by those intent on modernising China. Western boxing was adopted as the PLA "martial art" and Tai Chi was reduced to a single hybrid form for universal exercise - deliberately modelled on Western callisthenics, then hugely fashionable. The rest were turned into the "rhythmic gymnastics" of Wu Shu. A similar approach was taken to traditional medicine - the top CCP leadership used Western doctors, for example. This was in stark contrast to the approach taken by the Nationalists in the 1920s and 1930s. For example, the Jingwu Association and the Central Guoshu Institute were attempts to codify traditional arts but also find common elements, and to make them "fit for a (modern) purpose". This is when you see the influence of urban, wealthy "kung fu bums" and academics have an effect. In the more traditional rural setting, among a largely illiterate population, things were more piecemeal. Fixed syllabuses, professional artists, the time to spend on training were rare. You learnt what you needed to do your job, from whoever the best teacher was in your clan (often a retired soldier, not a reclusive monk on a mountain), who taught what he thought was best. Martial arts were constantly changing, with even the names of movements changing between master and student, and even different students of the same master. Sometimes this change was progress, sometimes not. A lot was swept away after 1949, even more with the Cultural Revolution. Many masters left for Hong Kong, Taiwan etc. This is also why so many of the myths of the wuxia novels have become the Wikitruth of today. Most foundation stories, especially those involving Shaolin, were known to be nonsense at the time - often, like more exotic forms, invented as part of the sales pitch for new urban schools competing for students from the 1890s on - but now are widely believed. Wing Chun's is a perfect example. Known to be a folk tale to the Ip family and others, it's now on pretty much every WC web page as "real". Of course, the canny Chinese government is happy to exploit Western gullibility, and who can blame them. "Rediscovering" the "lost Shaolin temple" just after Jet Li had starred in his first big blockbuster, for example. Go figure. 😂
Yes, Goju is essentially White Crane and its purpose is CQB with upright grappling with strikes, kicks, throws etc. Taiji is similar but I think it was developed as a counter system to Hung Gar so uses longer range techniques.
Yes, and it makes more sense when you see the whole lesson. What he’s really getting at is that Taiji, Xinyi, etc was used for fighting. They weren’t western boxing in the parks of Shanghai
In the 1970s where he was, 'push hands' was a collaborative drill to help each other deal with various incoming energies. Over the decades, it has become more and more of a *competitive* challenge, and the moves are modified contestant/winning goals.
I have pushed with a few Masters and none were as vexing as Nick Gracenin. It was like trying to grab smoke. If i tried to reach in it was like he vanished and then swallowed me and spit me out. I pushed with some of georges Students and wrecked them but I'm not easy to beat. I'm no master but I'm pretty decent. I think what he meant to say is students are too rigid and haven't figured out how to breathe yet so how can one push if one can't breathe?
If you want to see some good stuff about the fighting techniques and strategies of Tai Chi Chuan and the Pushing hands training, give a look at Dr Yang Jwing Ming's manuals. They are about the Yang school and you'll see how real Tai Chi Chuan is close to external Kung Fu and practical as a self defense system.
Push hands was a way to develop tactile awareness and sensitivity, so you could defend against and read your opponent's attack. It's also a drill to learn how to deal with the opponent's resistance against your attempts to stifle his aggression. Its other purpose was to manipulate the enemy's hands and arms so that he could no longer be able to attack you, so that you could close the distance and execute a throw or a joint lock after applying fast flurries of a variety of striking techniques if necessary, to distract the opponent in order to deliver a fight-ending throw, bone break, or submission. But a hard strike during the exchange can still end it if executed well.
Mr. Xu wasn't saying that boxing is superior. He meant that if he had to fight under a boxing ruleset, then he wasn't going to beat a boxer at his own game. 100% of a boxer's training transfer over the boxing rule-set, whereas delivering fists in TCC is only about 10-20% of the system -- so why bother going to a boxing match at such a training disadvantage, where the rule-set makes most of your skills useless? It's just applying artificial restrictions changes results. Imposing a rule-set incentives training some things and punishes training others. If punching is the only thing that gets rewarded by the rules then that's what you train and not kicking or wrestling.
Save for Wm. C.C. Chen I've never saw a TCC practitioner who could fight for shit. There's a clip on YT of two TCC "Masters" attempting, and failing miserbly, to fight. I think the "fight" was in the 1950s. Pure trash. TCMA in the open to the public (for money) arena has always been garbage. The in the house or club stuff was, and still is, legit. Even with modern protective equipment black eyes, split lips, broken ribs, etc., are common.
What, you mean the Tai Chi master vs the White Crane master fight? I saw that clip and it was a joke fight. Apparently the fight was a fund-raiser for charity. There was no prize-money for the actual fighters involved, so neither master actually wanted to make the other look bad and lose business over this, so they agreed beforehand to throw a only a mock fight. But the way they did it looked completely ridiculous. They should have done the pro-wrestling thing and put on a decent show at least. They decided to just wing it, and what we saw was a whole lot of circling around and hand waving. I bet those people left grumpy and didn't feel like they got their money's worth. It was a complete nothing fight. But at least the charity made money. Yeah, there are good and bad reasons for that. TCC is one of the most "conservative" and "closed door" styles there is. Usually the feeling is that "true skill skill should never go out door". You never show the real stuff outside. Just enough to drive publicity and interest so that the cash doesn't stop flowing in. Real martial skills are completely alien to what you see combat sports. It's not worth it to break the illusion. That just makes things more dangerous for everybody. I like true skill, and hate having my time wasted, but most people are unwilling to endure hardship, and cannot handle the truth of martial arts; that if you practice for real, you get hit. A lot. For a long time. It's uncomfortable and it hurts. Most people can't put up with that. But the Tai Chi Chuan teachers are still left with the problem of needing an income. So they have to get creative and teach other things first that are less than bread and butter material. Even if the TCC teacher knows what they are doing and want to teach the real stuff, if people aren't willing to pay for the real deal -- getting a beating everyday until they internalize proper structure and/or how to dodge well -- then the teacher will have to sell to people whatever it is that keeps students interested and paying their club fees. The teacher needs to keep a roof over their head. That's just the nature of needing to run a business. Unfortunately, the fluff subsidizes and precedes the real stuff usually. And it is true that many never get to the real content. That's why most martial arts clubs -- even in other styles -- tend to devolve into being glorified day-cares. The error comes when one is not able to recognize the difference between the two, and conflates the two together. There is stuff that you do because it is realistic to train and there is stuff that you do because it is safe to train. And there is stuff you do just for marketing and giggles. The trick is to know what belongs to which category, so you don't get the ideas crossed in your head.
@@Rainbow_Oracle When I did saw the fight the first time I was shocked. I couldnt believe that anybody would take these two guys serious as martial art masters. Not even back in their days. I watched several different videos about that to read the comments but this is the first time I read this as explanation.
After Tae Kwon Do in the Olympics and the rise of MMA changed all of martial arts. And not for the better. The training and conditioning has been modified and sciencefied. Bastardized the traditional training methods. Turned all the forms into dance move. Nobody breaks forms down and teaches the physics and science behind it. We lost a whole method of knowledge and training. No thanks to people like Bruce Lee, who led people astray. We need to get back to the days of old. When men trained like men not sensitive rainbow half man half frootloop.
Useless? No established martial art is useless. I have studied various western and eastern arts so I feel it is all in the application of the skills. Anyway this man looks like he has something to offer. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Maybe they were not practicing it for self defense, but for health, or just like a past time, like bowling or something. If they found it enjoyable, why rob them of something they like doing. And he also said they were mixing a lot of different things, not just push hands
He’s describing and demonstrating the “external” taiji. I don’t think he has an idea of what the “internal” practice feels like. But, then again, most people don’t know what it feels like.
@@TheJofrica It is funny some people want to act like they only possess the truth. Fact is there are many truths within martial arts. Why limit yourself. I think this man is having fun. He cannot be faulted for that.
A book of 1843 on Tai Chi Chuan list sparring as a training method, sadly after the boxer rebellion almost all effective trainings were discarted from Kung Fu
Actually, the "learn" for money practice initiated the demise of TCMA. There are some small-ish enclaves of Hakka who do it for real.
What book from 1843?
@@igorrakar8310 Salt Shop manual?
The Chinese Communist Party banning traditional martial arts was a pretty big deal too. This was largely because martial arts groups had been used as hit squads by all political groups for decades, but also because they had been seen, post-Boxers, as retrograde and, being honestly, ineffective by those intent on modernising China. Western boxing was adopted as the PLA "martial art" and Tai Chi was reduced to a single hybrid form for universal exercise - deliberately modelled on Western callisthenics, then hugely fashionable. The rest were turned into the "rhythmic gymnastics" of Wu Shu. A similar approach was taken to traditional medicine - the top CCP leadership used Western doctors, for example. This was in stark contrast to the approach taken by the Nationalists in the 1920s and 1930s. For example, the Jingwu Association and the Central Guoshu Institute were attempts to codify traditional arts but also find common elements, and to make them "fit for a (modern) purpose". This is when you see the influence of urban, wealthy "kung fu bums" and academics have an effect. In the more traditional rural setting, among a largely illiterate population, things were more piecemeal. Fixed syllabuses, professional artists, the time to spend on training were rare. You learnt what you needed to do your job, from whoever the best teacher was in your clan (often a retired soldier, not a reclusive monk on a mountain), who taught what he thought was best. Martial arts were constantly changing, with even the names of movements changing between master and student, and even different students of the same master. Sometimes this change was progress, sometimes not. A lot was swept away after 1949, even more with the Cultural Revolution. Many masters left for Hong Kong, Taiwan etc. This is also why so many of the myths of the wuxia novels have become the Wikitruth of today. Most foundation stories, especially those involving Shaolin, were known to be nonsense at the time - often, like more exotic forms, invented as part of the sales pitch for new urban schools competing for students from the 1890s on - but now are widely believed. Wing Chun's is a perfect example. Known to be a folk tale to the Ip family and others, it's now on pretty much every WC web page as "real". Of course, the canny Chinese government is happy to exploit Western gullibility, and who can blame them. "Rediscovering" the "lost Shaolin temple" just after Jet Li had starred in his first big blockbuster, for example. Go figure. 😂
@@thequestion52 Yes. Probably is that old manual. However I think that was found around the year 1852.
That fence would be very satisfying to power wash.
This kind of push hands is much more fun
Looks like what we do in Goyu Ryu, but the origins of it lay in China with White Crane and other styles.
Cool
Yeah, honestly most styles (that are good) have something like this, tangling hands, where you practice the messy stuff.
Yes, Goju is essentially White Crane and its purpose is CQB with upright grappling with strikes, kicks, throws etc. Taiji is similar but I think it was developed as a counter system to Hung Gar so uses longer range techniques.
goju ryus push hands is not as complicated as that. but i have seen the ngo cho kun version and its similar to what their doing
But the Goju Ryu pushands kalled Kaiken is quite different from Taiji pushhand.
Great stuff
Thanks
Didn't really understand what he was getting at.
I think he means that in the past they would use kicks and leg sweeps during push hands, while today people only use their hands.
Yes, and it makes more sense when you see the whole lesson. What he’s really getting at is that Taiji, Xinyi, etc was used for fighting. They weren’t western boxing in the parks of Shanghai
In the 1970s where he was, 'push hands' was a collaborative drill to help each other deal with various incoming energies. Over the decades, it has become more and more of a *competitive* challenge, and the moves are modified contestant/winning goals.
Attack Two of the gates at the same time.
@@goldengateliontiger8972 Western boxing was becoming popular.
Seems it was practiced in a similar fashion as the two man form, but freestyle. Thank you. 🙏
Yes, I agree. Thanks.
I have pushed with a few Masters and none were as vexing as Nick Gracenin. It was like trying to grab smoke. If i tried to reach in it was like he vanished and then swallowed me and spit me out. I pushed with some of georges Students and wrecked them but I'm not easy to beat. I'm no master but I'm pretty decent. I think what he meant to say is students are too rigid and haven't figured out how to breathe yet so how can one push if one can't breathe?
If you want to see some good stuff about the fighting techniques and strategies of Tai Chi Chuan and the Pushing hands training, give a look at Dr Yang Jwing Ming's manuals. They are about the Yang school and you'll see how real Tai Chi Chuan is close to external Kung Fu and practical as a self defense system.
Yang jwing ming gets most of his applications from Shuai Chiao. Just study Combat Shuai Chiao and Kuai Jiao (San Da Fast Throwing)
Push hands was a way to develop tactile awareness and sensitivity, so you could defend against and read your opponent's attack. It's also a drill to learn how to deal with the opponent's resistance against your attempts to stifle his aggression.
Its other purpose was to manipulate the enemy's hands and arms so that he could no longer be able to attack you, so that you could close the distance and execute a throw or a joint lock after applying fast flurries of a variety of striking techniques if necessary, to distract the opponent in order to deliver a fight-ending throw, bone break, or submission.
But a hard strike during the exchange can still end it if executed well.
jet lee?
Could be
Bruce Lee also realized that boxing was superior
crammed and distorted by the classical mess
Mr. Xu wasn't saying that boxing is superior. He meant that if he had to fight under a boxing ruleset, then he wasn't going to beat a boxer at his own game.
100% of a boxer's training transfer over the boxing rule-set, whereas delivering fists in TCC is only about 10-20% of the system -- so why bother going to a boxing match at such a training disadvantage, where the rule-set makes most of your skills useless?
It's just applying artificial restrictions changes results. Imposing a rule-set incentives training some things and punishes training others. If punching is the only thing that gets rewarded by the rules then that's what you train and not kicking or wrestling.
Save for Wm. C.C. Chen I've never saw a TCC practitioner who could fight for shit. There's a clip on YT of two TCC "Masters" attempting, and failing miserbly, to fight. I think the "fight" was in the 1950s. Pure trash. TCMA in the open to the public (for money) arena has always been garbage. The in the house or club stuff was, and still is, legit. Even with modern protective equipment black eyes, split lips, broken ribs, etc., are common.
What, you mean the Tai Chi master vs the White Crane master fight? I saw that clip and it was a joke fight. Apparently the fight was a fund-raiser for charity. There was no prize-money for the actual fighters involved, so neither master actually wanted to make the other look bad and lose business over this, so they agreed beforehand to throw a only a mock fight. But the way they did it looked completely ridiculous.
They should have done the pro-wrestling thing and put on a decent show at least. They decided to just wing it, and what we saw was a whole lot of circling around and hand waving. I bet those people left grumpy and didn't feel like they got their money's worth. It was a complete nothing fight. But at least the charity made money.
Yeah, there are good and bad reasons for that. TCC is one of the most "conservative" and "closed door" styles there is. Usually the feeling is that "true skill skill should never go out door". You never show the real stuff outside. Just enough to drive publicity and interest so that the cash doesn't stop flowing in.
Real martial skills are completely alien to what you see combat sports. It's not worth it to break the illusion. That just makes things more dangerous for everybody.
I like true skill, and hate having my time wasted, but most people are unwilling to endure hardship, and cannot handle the truth of martial arts; that if you practice for real, you get hit. A lot. For a long time. It's uncomfortable and it hurts. Most people can't put up with that. But the Tai Chi Chuan teachers are still left with the problem of needing an income. So they have to get creative and teach other things first that are less than bread and butter material.
Even if the TCC teacher knows what they are doing and want to teach the real stuff, if people aren't willing to pay for the real deal -- getting a beating everyday until they internalize proper structure and/or how to dodge well -- then the teacher will have to sell to people whatever it is that keeps students interested and paying their club fees. The teacher needs to keep a roof over their head. That's just the nature of needing to run a business.
Unfortunately, the fluff subsidizes and precedes the real stuff usually. And it is true that many never get to the real content. That's why most martial arts clubs -- even in other styles -- tend to devolve into being glorified day-cares. The error comes when one is not able to recognize the difference between the two, and conflates the two together. There is stuff that you do because it is realistic to train and there is stuff that you do because it is safe to train. And there is stuff you do just for marketing and giggles. The trick is to know what belongs to which category, so you don't get the ideas crossed in your head.
@@Rainbow_Oracle When I did saw the fight the first time I was shocked. I couldnt believe that anybody would take these two guys serious as martial art masters. Not even back in their days. I watched several different videos about that to read the comments but this is the first time I read this as explanation.
After Tae Kwon Do in the Olympics and the rise of MMA changed all of martial arts. And not for the better. The training and conditioning has been modified and sciencefied. Bastardized the traditional training methods. Turned all the forms into dance move. Nobody breaks forms down and teaches the physics and science behind it. We lost a whole method of knowledge and training. No thanks to people like Bruce Lee, who led people astray.
We need to get back to the days of old. When men trained like men not sensitive rainbow half man half frootloop.
Indeed
Imagine spending a lifetime mastering an absolutely useless form of self defense. May as well be called self defenseless.
when he started talking about boxing I was waiting for him to show it defending a 1-2 or similar, but I was just left scratching my head lol
Useless? No established martial art is useless. I have studied various western and eastern arts so I feel it is all in the application of the skills.
Anyway this man looks like he has something to offer. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Maybe they were not practicing it for self defense, but for health, or just like a past time, like bowling or something. If they found it enjoyable, why rob them of something they like doing. And he also said they were mixing a lot of different things, not just push hands
He’s describing and demonstrating the “external” taiji. I don’t think he has an idea of what the “internal” practice feels like. But, then again, most people don’t know what it feels like.
@@TheJofrica It is funny some people want to act like they only possess the truth. Fact is there are many truths within martial arts. Why limit yourself.
I think this man is having fun. He cannot be faulted for that.