How to find a high current amplifier
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- psaudio.com
How can a consumer figure out what power amplifier is best for their speakers? This person has Magneplanars and is worried about getting enough horsepower. Have a question you want to ask Paul?
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My 2 cents worth! To compare amplifiers there are two things that I look at. 1 - power output at 4 ohm versus the 8 ohm output. A high current amp will go close to double the 8 ohm number when driving 4 ohms. The second thing that gives some clues as to the current output is the maximum mains power draw with respect to the sum of total amplifier power when all channels are at rated output at 4 ohms. A high current amp will have a maximum mains power draw higher than the 4 ohm total Rms power. Example is the Parasound JC1 monoblock amps are 400W into 8 ohm load and 800W for a 4 ohm. The total power draw is listed as 1280W at 400W into 8ohm load, and the power transformer is 1900VA (equivalent to watts) . This amp has outstanding low impedance loads tolerance with max output current listed at 135A. To drive a low impedance load will not be a problem. However if the power supply was reduced to 800VA then it would struggle to drive 4ohm loads correctly (read loudly) and sound would be audibly degraded.
Agreed. Many amps though, claim high current (Adcom 5802) yet spec their amps like 300wpc @ 8 ohms, 450 wpc @ 4 ohms.
This doesn't work because amp manufacturers know people look at this number. They just publish slightly conservative numbers for their 8 ohm output to make the numbers look however they want. I remember a few years ago comparing Bryston 500w Monoblock amplifiers to some 600w Krell amplifiers driving B&W 800Ds. The Krell was slightly more refined but the Brystons absolutely blew the Krell away when it came to raw power, dynamics, slam, and base control despite the Krells doubling in power down to 2 ohms.
@@arontoday8766 That may be, but that B&W is a fairly easy load (8ohm nominal/3.1min, 90db sensitivity). Try those Bryston mono's with a 0.6 Ohm load @87 db efficiency and you'll hear the Bryston's sound fall apart (and protection (?) light illuminate), as I did when I attempted to use them (7B) to power a pair of Apogee Scintillas.
Best audio Channel on CZcams
The voltage (think water through a garden hose) is the pressure, current is the volume (amount of water at the same pressure) of water coming through the hose, for a higher current at the same voltage (wattage) your hose (cable) needs to be bigger. That's the way I describe the wattage, voltage, and current (amperes, amps) to my non electronicly inclined friends. I hope that makes sense. That's the way I can comprehend it. I hope that helps. Not everyone can put such a complex subject matter into layman's terms. Nor does everyone understand it reasonably at a electronics level. I think it's ok. Some people (like me) need things dumbed down a bit so they can grasp what is being discussed. It's great to ask questions about things you don't understand, especially on electronics. There's soooooo much trash out there and for someone who is a hobbyist and just getting into audio, no questions are dumb for a guy like him.
Allen Toler ... voltage is horse power and current is torque? 😬
No need to complicate a newbie's problem. Just look at the ratio of wattage from 8 ohms down to lower impedances. If the power output doesn't double from 8 ohms to 4 ohms, then it definitely isn't high current.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt But it´s very rare to double the wattage from 8 ohms to 4 ohms. Most good and powerfull amps are a litle short of that.
@@mindtraveller100 Not at all.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Yes it's true. Most amp manufacturers understate their amplifiers 8ohm output so the 4ohm figure looks like it's doubling. When you look at the actual 8ohm output, it's higher than stated and the 4ohm isn't exactly doubled. So a manufacturer may claim 100watts at 8ohm and 200watts at 4ohm but the real figures are 114watts at 8ohm and 200watts at 4ohm, so by the claim it's doubling but the real figures, it's not.
Own Magnepan 1.7i s. 4 ohm, about 87db sensitivity. My 1980 Carver m400 @ 200wpc 500 mono drives them no problem and stays cool. Nice to see the leds for db jump. My last speakers were 97db sens and the leds barely blinked. Just nice to SEE the amp working.
Best voice on the internet.
.A "short" is no impedance , so if your speakers as Paul said dip very low, you approach a short circuit which is like letting go free all your current.
The best analogy I can think of when describing V/A/W is is to compare it to water pipe, amps is the volume of water going through the pipe, and compared to wire size the bigger the pipe more volume it can move and voltage is the water pressure, the higher pressure will move that volume easier, and from whatever combination of those two values out the spigot is your wattage... That isn't exact but it usally gives most people a good idea of what's going on. Best I have...
KEF LS50 specs: nominal impedance 8 Ohm, minimal - 3.2 Ohm. Sensitivity: 85 dB. Just looking at these figures you can tell why many people are unable to get a good sound from them with many low-budget class D amps.
The impedance of a speaker is usually specified at a mid frequency (such as 1 kHz) where the impedance is relatively flat. The impedance at resonance can be several times higher and the impedance at high frequencies can be higher due to the speaker's inductance. The result is that the average impedance over a speaker's full frequency range can be higher that the specified impedance.
A lecture in electrical theory is exactly what that guy needs. Give him some ohms law forumulas and teach the man to fish.
The water pipe with a pump at one end, and a restriction in the middle is a great analogy for V= I x R and P = V x I.
Thanks Paul, I find myself coming back to your videos for a 10 min audio wisdom :)
I tested my ATI AT2505 amplifiers power output using high power dummy load resistors: 4 ohm 8 ohm and combinations of both to create 6 ohm, 2 ohm and even 1.5 ohm loads. I tested all 5 channels driven 4 ch. 3 ch. 2 ch. and 1 ch. I used a brand new Siglent Technologies SDS1102CML+ Oscilloscope to find the clipping point. An Extech true RMS Multimeter to measure voltage. I used a 40 hertz sine wave as the signal. These amps measured at Manufacture spec's all 5 channels driven= 250 Watts into 8 ohm and 375 Watts into 4 ohm. What was surprising was the amount of power with less channels driven. With 4 ch driven power went to 275 Watts into 8 ohm and 424 Watts into 4 ohm. 3 channels was 517 Watts into 4 ohm. 1 channel driven was an amazing 840 Watts into 2 ohm. I tried a 1.5 ohm load 1 channel driven and the 2 10 amp fuses on that channel for protection blew when that channel approached close to 900 Watts. What this shows me is that the biggest limiting factor is how much power can be pulled from the AC line. I have from the panel breaker box about 20 feet away from 2 AC outlet wired with 10 gauge wiring rated to 30 amps supplying these amplifier outlets, the amplifiers power cords and internal wiring are 12 gauge.
I really love ATI Amplifiers,i own the ATI AT-1502 and it does a great job together with my MCM Time Frame 600's and my NIKKO Beta 400 preamp!
Simple formula applies to DC. Moving a step forward with AC and a complex impedance, the formula changes somewhat. Volts times Amps, times Power Factor = Watts. Volts times amps = Volt Amps (VA). This is electrical power 101. For example if your 400 Watt amplifier is able to deliver 400 watts into a resistor, it is rated for 400 Watts. If your speaker has complex impedance, to use 400 watts, it may have a reactive power component. The reactive component is called VAR. This is Volts Amps Reactive.
Reactive loads on amplifiers often do not play well together. Reactive power is returned to the amplifier, often seen as low speaker impedance, but the high current is shifted out of phase with the driving voltage.
How to view this on an oscilloscope. Yes it is measurable.
You need the amplifier under test, the speaker under test, a 2 channel oscilloscope and a hall sensor current probe. The probe needs to be flat response through the audio frequency range so some for electricians filter out harmonics of the power line frequency. The scope needs to be set in vector or X-Y display mode. Probe the speaker output and put it into the vertical channel. Run the one conductor returning from the speaker to the amp through the current sensor and view the current in the horizontal axis. A pure resistivity load will produce a straight slanted line with voltage and current exactly increasing and decreasing together.
This probe has low phase shift of 1.5 degrees between 0 and 65 KHZ, and displays with 3 db rolloff at 100KHZ, so it is perfect for the task. www.microdaq.com/aemc-sl261-ac-dc-current-probe.php?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI17KFndGi6gIVMD6tBh2CHQwREAkYFCABEgIZavD_BwE
Yes I have current probes, transducers, etc up to +/- 500Amps. Yes I have measured the failure of some amplifiers to properly drive Acoustic Research AR-3a speakers. They are a 4 ohm speaker with a complex impedance.
One of the hardest things in the world to explain the workings of electricity.
If i may be so bold, no! one of the hardest things to explain is the differential in a axle or gearbox,
but when it's seen in working model form, so easy to make sense of.
I have to disagree. The kind of electrical concepts that Paul is explaining in this video are incredibly simple. They are expressed using grade school math.
It is my opinion that Paul's attempt to simplify things (in this and many other videos) is causing more confusion than there world would be if he just explained then directly using precise language.
High current for low impedance speakers and higher voltage for higher impedance speakers. They can both be 10 watt though as 1 amp at 10 volt is 10 watt as is 2 amp at 5 volt and so on.
A good indicator of a "high-current" amp is if the power rating doubles from 8 ohms to 4 ohms. A theoretically perfect amp will perfectly double its power if you halve the impedance. Look at the specs of an inexpensive integrated..... It might be 80 watts into 8 ohms and 110 into 4 ohms. This is not a high current amp. It might sound great into an easy 8 ohms, but would not do well into complex loads. Now look at the specs of a PS or Bryston amp, and you'll see 120w into 8, 220w into 4 ohms, and maybe 350 into 2 ohms. That's a high current amp.
I am no HIFI nerd , but my recipe is simple as a brick : Big powertransformer with plenty of iron and copper , electrolytic power capacitors in the size of beverage cans , really massive outputtransformer for tube amp , sinus power of the amp at least two times of the maximum speaker consumption . That should do :-)
Once again Paul, as a Maggie 3.7i owner, nothing but factual and safe advice.
Dont those have nasty low impedence spikes down to 1 ohm ?
There really is no "nominal 4 ohm" panel speaker not below 80 hz or so .
Maybe above 100hz
That's what I see on all the graphs the impedence dropping rapidly below those frequencies.
Paul's comments are misleading
Unless your high passing and running a sub .
Paul doesn't know what the hell he's talking about
get a different guru
5:56 - If you're driving them with a tube-amp, the voltage will seriously dip around 18 dB! :)
I started watching your videos Paul and it's interesting but not always in line with your words but I like your explanations. I would like to correct you about the sensitivity of the Magnepan speakers. Magnepan indicates on its entire range of speakers a sensitivity of 86dB/500Hz/2.83 volts. On this video you indicate that the Magnepan speakers have a sensitivity of 86dB with 1 Watt of power which is in fact an error. According to the specifications of its speakers, Magnepan rather indicates 86dB with 2.83 volts and not 1 watt and 2.83 volts/4 ohms = 2 watts. So for 1 watt of input the Magnepan speakers have a real sensitivity of 83dB.
Voltage is electromotive force or differential where current is flow or bandwidth. Impedance (ohms) is the resistance to flow in that path.
Hey l have the Maggie's. 7's and used my VAC PA 100 100 (4ohm tap) tube amp with my LS15 tube pre amp and it sounded magical but lacked dynamics
So l found a used Spectron musical MK ll class D amp weighting in at 54lbs
500watts@8ohm 650@4ohms and 1,200 watts@1ohm & 65 amps for 500 milliseconds All l can say is the Maggie's must love lots of watts/current
because they have really come alive with inner detail, soundstage and amazing dynamics
There was once a company called Apogee Acoustics (not the same as the Apogee Electronics) that made electrostatic loudspeakers that were widely reported to be incredibly good sounding (second hand information, I never had the pleasure of hearing them myself), but also had a reputation as amp killers due to an extremely low impedence. The original Krell class A amps earned their street cred by being able to make them sing sweetly and live to drive another day. Just have a tolerance for a hot room and a pair of oven mitts available if you need to touch them.
Yep Nelson Pass sure knows how to build some great Class A amps. I remember reading an article in TAS many years ago about Krell amps that said you could hook up a power drill up to the speaker cable of a Krell and it would work. I actually have a Pass Class A amp and boy does it have huge heat sinks.
I was fortunate to hear various Apogee speakers back in the day. They had incredible jump factor. The original speakers were the amp killers, but the Duetta's and Calipers were relatively benign. I almost had a moment of weakness after hearing the Caliper Signatures driven by the Aragon amp that I owned back then, but that would have been a VERY bad idea with three little kids at the time.
Scintillas were the amp killers.
I can attest to the fact that the apogee acoustics sounded absolutely amazing with Krell monoblocks. Some of the best setups I've ever heard.
You're talking about the Kappa 9's. They were notorious for killing amplifiers. Also, impedance is like resistance, but frequency dependent. Some speakers are pretty flat across the spectrum and some can dip down below 2 ohms or even lower. Great video Paul : )
Great speakers - right out off ‘a space odyssey’
The key word here is "nominal" when it comes to reactive speaker loads, or average. A piezo tweeter decreases it's impedance with increasing frequency. These can dip as low as 1 ohm at high frequency. Kinda like putting a capacitor load across the output.
A speaker at "free air resonance" is at it's highest peak impedance and can be many times it's rated nominal impedance. If speakers were resistors then only watts would matter, but each speaker and crossover is like a fingerprint and each amplifier is a reactive component working to create a unique sound. Experiment, trust you ears, you would be surprised. It is synergy.
i explain this with water : two tanks at different heights with a pipe and valve in between. The height difference between the tanks is volt. The flow through the pipe is current. and the resistance of the valve is resistance. Now you can imagine which effects what.
Internet and wisdom are two words that should never be used in the same sentence.
You can use 8 awg speaker wire will help any good class ab power amp.
This talk should include damping factor as well. If you want to drive low sensitivity speakers this is important.
yes
Why?? Damping factor is the ability of the amp to control unwanted movements of the woofer near it’s resonant frequency. That is unrelated to efficiency.
Yikes No....... Damping FACTOR is simply the RATIO of the load impedance to output impedance. If an amp's output section has an output resistance of .08 ohms, and the load is 8 ohms, the damping factor is 8/0.08 = 100. This has nothing to do with output power or current. If this amp with 0.08 ohm output resistance has a wimpy power supply, then it will not deliver high current. Damping factor is not a measure of quality.
Miro Svetinsky That is how to express DF as a number, but what I stated is what it actually does, and why a DF of 1000 would be far better than a DF of, let’s say, 10. The higher the number, the better the amp’s ability to control unwanted vibrations in the woofer near it’s resonance..
@@doowopper1951 Somewhere in the middle is the truth. Damping factors of 1000 are meaningless and damping factors of 5 are terrible. You don't need to be a bodybuilder to turn the page of a book but it is a good thing to be strong.
Amps are torque volts are horse power. There's no replacement for displacement. High currant amps are like big displacement motors. They deliver the grunt at any rpm (volume).
Actually, Watts are horsepower. In fact, one horsepower equals 720 watts.
@@doowopper1951
745.7 watts, not 720.
@@marianneoelund2940 you “hate” Paul’s videos but you’re still here ! 🤣🤣🤣
@@Hondaguru1122
You do not know my emotions.
Judge not, lest ye be judged also.
In fourteen hundred and ninety-two Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Divide that date of his by two and that's the number of watts in a horsepower, too.
As a speaker building enthusiast I try not to let the impedance go below 4 ohms. Maybe 3 but that's my limit. And that is usually above 10 khz with my coaxial driver speakers I dip the impedance a little bit maybe (but not to a half an ohm). The only math I do is watching the (nominal) impedance of the combination of the components I use. The rest is with my ears and my B&W reference speakers. With added imagination to get my own sound without straying from the monitors too much.
The man I bought my Infinity Kappa 8 from said that he had burnt a NAD amplifier when he tried to use the Kappa 8's with that amplifier.
Plus!
I read/look at "The Power-Cube" in Swedish Hifi & Musik
Put it simply Impedance is AC resistance the spec on the speakers impedance is important for the choice of amp as he says and its SPL rating for 1watt
I like to use water as my analogy when I explain this. Like a stream or a river. Current is the width of the river and the voltage is how fast the water is traveling. Think of the energy in terms of how much force it would take to to stop the water with your hand or a dam.
Perfect analogy!
Can a driver (by itself) dip down to under 2 ohms (with 4 and 8 ohms drivers)? Or can it only happen cos of the crossover (for example with type 2 crossovers)?
If you are on a tight budget I would try out Crown XLS drivecore 2 amplifiers. They are reasonably good sounding, and they costs very little, and have much power. But they are not the most detailed and precise amplifiers, but hey. They make hard to drive speakers really sing. So if that is what you want, then you got it. But for better quality high wattage amps there are amps from Hegel, PS audio, McIntosh, Krell, Electrocompaniet, parasound, and many more that can drive the speakers, but they will at least cost five to ten times as much as the Crown amps.
I like the XLS series. They give me plenty of DSP options for setting them up to work in a distributed sound system. I'm getting tired of constantly repairing the cheap plate amplifiers on a pair of Behringer subs, and will probably replace them with Crown 1002XLS.
Simple way for people to understand what current and voltage are is to compare it to water. Water is like current. Water is the substance. Current (amps) is the substance. Voltage is the pressure just like water has pressure which we usually measure as P.S.I. The higher the PSI, the higher your water pressure. High voltage equals higher electrical pressure.
I own a pair of Parasound HCA2200 II power amplifiers,highly recommended them. They never had any issues until now fortunately!
Most audio manufacturers won’t list output impedance, it would be to easy to tell a good amp to the regular stuff, but they all list dynamic range to give you an idea of how it performs in Watts, only a very proud high end maker will list output impedance
Damping factor gives you the output impedance indirectly. But having a low output impedance does not by any means guarantee high-current capability.
The impedance of a Magnapan 1.7 is very flat, but goes below 2 ohms in the 10 to 20 khz range. So you need an amp that can drive high power into 2 omhs. An amp rated for 4 to 8 ohms will not bring the high frequencies alive.
8 and 9 Kappas were wicked.
I also use 'internet wisdom', it's called 'PS Audio' you-tube channel
Oh god 😏
Paul?? Good luck with that
What is dampening factor and how does it fit into this discussion?
You can look at amperage as torque if you drive a motor and it spins fast but you can stop it with your fingers easily that is very low amperage, if you spin the motor the same speed but decrease the voltage but increase the amperage then you won't be able to stop it with your fingers
Something else, most of the time you can't go on the model number of your equipment and pay attention on the back of your equipment as to the information you are reading. Sometimes people read the wattage wrong. A lot of times we perceive the power supply rating as the output of the amplifier. Just trying to help.
Thank you for your time. I truly enjoy every video, wish I could do an internship to learn from you. Personally own a Parasound a21+, packs a small punch. 108,000 uF
A well designed Class A amplifier is equivalent to a current source and will deliver as much current as the load "requests" over the frequency range. The danger is, as Paul indicated, a low impedance load may cause damage to either the load or the ( unprotected? ) amplifier. Assume the amplifier can deliver an infinite amount of current so if the load ( speaker ) goes to 1 ohm at 8khz and you've got things turned way up then maybe you find the speaker cone on the living room floor, ripped apart or a burned out voice coil. My understanding is that the Maggies are a very flat resistive load.
Man ... dont quit your day job 😏
What amp should I use for kappa 7s? I like to crank my rock music loud.
I just wish all manufactures was honest about their watt ratings etc. May gives numbers at 1ch driven into 6ohms and 1kHz (gives a high watt number) while the ones that have correct messures gives their numbers in all ch driven, 8ohm and 20Hz-20kHz. (Gives lower but a correct number). I have several times experienced a real rated 40-50w amp has beaten the shit out of a fake rated 100w amp. And with the powersupply they often give us the nominal power draw instead of the max it is capable of. There should be consistancy in this so everyone gave the real numbers.
RMS power into 8 ohms at a rated level of distortion across a range of frequencies is a standard. But, power across 4 ohms and 2 ohms with the same stats tells you about the amplifier's current capability. If it doubles from 8 to 4 ohms, and again from 4 to 2 ohms, then you have high current capability.
Back in "the old days," Harmon Kardon advertised their ratings out to 100 khz.
@@jpatrickmoore5158 Just remember RMS power is mostly BS and not even a real messurement standard. FTC power (like NAD and some few else messure) is the real deal. But yes, everything you say here is correct👌
Harman Kardon also messured with FTC (20-20.000Hz with ALL channels driven into a rated ohm) before they turned to crap ald stoped making good amps. Most messure only 1kHz, 4, 6 or maybe 8ohm into one or MAYBE 2 channels (for surround recivers) and mostly same for stereo amps. That gives a higher watt rating but WEAK watts with low amps. I tried many "just 40-50w FTC" amps that has beaten the living shit out of so called "100-150w RMS or DIN" amps😅
I remember when I worked at Vintage HiFi of Pittsburgh we hooked up a pair of Infinity Kappa 9's to a Carver 1.5T amp and it just kept cutting out.
Kappa 9s in their low impedance setting were amp killers. The Carver 1.5 was a garbage amp with no bass control at all. Many speakers would bottom out when used with it.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt I like Bob Carver the man As I've met him several times. Went to Carverfest twice. The only Carver product I own is a little tube amp.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt kappa 9 was a really bad design,
Paul I am watching you on the internet, so what does that say ?
How would a M700 or M1200 sound in 5.2 Home theater environment Home theater amp vs audiophile amp?
If I want a amp with high A. Example:
Amp 1: 100v * 1A = 100 watt
Amp 2: 50v * 2A = 100 watt
(Just made up numbers)
How do I conclude that two different amplifiers with the same wattage. Has more Ampe than the other??
If you're putting those two voltages in and getting those two currents then you're talking about two different loads. Normally audio amplifiers are specified into a specific load. For example 100 watts into 8 Ohms.
@@mikehermesmeglio I do not understand. In a given amp specifications you usually gett a wattage at X ohm.
BUT you do not know anything about the voltage OR the ampere!
So the question withstand:
How do I know the relationship between the voltage and the ampere to get the specified wattage?
Example (just made up numbers):
1: 50V * 2A = 100w
2: 150V * 1A = 150w
How can "internet common wisdom" say that high current (A) amplifier is more important for panel speakers. And voltage for traditional speakers.
As seen in my example that we can not just go on that the wattage is higher then the ampere is also higher.. ..no it might be higher but can also be lower.. the 100w amp has twice the ampere than the 150w..
How can MANY internet people say that I/we need a high current (A) amplifier?!
Do they know something that I don't. Or they just repeat what they hear without thinking?
That isn't how it works. The amplifier determines the output voltage based on it's gain factor times the input voltage. The current and power are determined by the speaker load.
My apogees are 83db and I’m not using anything near 22,000 worth of mon, biamped with almost anything over 200 watts per with 4 ch toroidal seems to do it.
So Maggie’s require a lot of current; but electro stats like quad require. A lot of voltage?
All I know is my XPA-2 drives maggies just fine.
Its a myth that Maggie's require high current. Mostly they just need power because of low efficiency. They're reasonably resistive.
Don't forget about the output impedance of the amp.
Impedance must not be detached from an amplifier. If some can handle 100 Watts but its voltage is only 25 Volts, you will never get 100 Watts on 8 Ohms load. Voltage and a load resistance defines the system. Current goes next and can be increased with a simple parallelization (in an output stage I mean). But if not, limits an output power. And after that wattage goes.
Another thing. If some amplifier has enormous distortions on 4 Ohms load, you won't use it, and again will not get 100 Watts.
So what are some good amps for 7kappas.
If you want that the amp do ist peefektly: PA Amps. Or the Vincent SP-998 are fantadtik high power amps
Really enjoy your videos Paul! One day I hope to being to afford a stellar amplifier. I'm driving Vandersteen 1Ci's. I have an older Linn LK 140.
Thanks.
So, is an amplifier rated to deliver, say 100W into 8 ohms 200W into 4 ohms, 400W into 2 ohms load and with a frequency response DC- to 50Khz or 100 Khz. generally electrically better?
It depends on what "better" means to you. If your amplifier is capable of high current output, at some point you will reach its limit, where your power output drops off due to design constraints, it blows up, or some kind of protection kicks in. The total line current will give you at least a hint on the total possible power output.
Here's an example... my receiver has a 3 amp fuse on the line input, which at least hints at a potential total wattage of about 350 watts. But, each amplifier side also has a 3 amp fuse as well, which hints at a potential wattage of 72 watts into 8 ohms. It's rated at 45 watts RMS. It never had a power rating published at a lower impedance. It was built and sold when there was a push towards publishing RMS power, because there were manufacturers who advertised terms that weren't clearly defined, like dynamic power, which was typically a higher rating.
The importance of RMS rating is that you have a better idea of what the long term power capacity is, but music has dynamic range that can require some instantaneous power demand that can exceed the long term capability of the amplifier. A good example would be the difference between a bass drum kick and a sustained low note on an organ. As you increase the volume, at some point the amplifier will not be able to drive the speaker without clipping, but the bass drum kick will be limited by the design of the amplifier's power reserves plus the limitations of the electronic components to reach the required voltage.
If the amplifier doesn't have the power reserves, or isn't capable of putting out the current, you'll run out of juice. My original receiver just won't drive my current speakers because it wasn't designed for high current output. My current receiver has a slightly higher wattage, but is more capable of higher current output, so it drives them quite well. The old receiver functions as a method of having additional source inputs and I use its tape output into one of the newer receiver's tape input for additional inputs.
@@jpatrickmoore5158 ... thanks
I'm buying these for sister Marantz M-CR612 into 6 ohms of PSB Alpha P5 10-90 watts into 8 ohms since lower ohm is ok to drive higher ohms
It's OK to go higher ohm speakers than the minimum ohm rating of an amp. You get in trouble the other way.
@@brucestarr4438 Thank you
@@brucestarr4438 and speakers are 89 db
years and years ago when i was dumb and ill-informed, i connected 2 extra speakers to the speaker outlets on my "el-cheapo" shelf hi-fi unit... and it died. not knowing about electronics i never knew what exactly i had killed. i opened up the unit expecting to find a blown fuse, but the fuse or fuses where fine. im just wondering, knowing now that i actually caused a short by connecting too many speakers and having too low an impedance, what did i actually kill? what would have to be repaired inside that unit?
More than likely the output transistors.
@@golfman9290 ok, cheers!
Amazing video. One of his best
🍅🍅🍅 hi Paul, im just wondering wich Infinity Kappas youre refering too ? Cause im driving four kappa's 10.1 on my system. Hope im not giving my amp a slow death 😳
I am sure you're just fine. The original Kappa series with the switch on the rear of the speaker for extended bass. But even those wouldn't degrade the amp over time. The amp can either handle it or not. If not, it either goes into protect mode (which is what most modern amps will do), or if an older design like what we had it'll die right there on the spot. So if yours is alright, then you're just fine.
wow thanks for your time ! 🍅
Old Kappa 9.
How can you tell how low a speaker impedance dips and at what frequency without sticking a meters/oscilloscopes to the system?
You could put a carbon 1 ohm resistor in series with one of the speaker wires then using a succession of tones ( 500Hz, 1Khs, 2Khz ect ect ) measure the AC voltage across the resistor. From that you can calculate the effective resistance of the speaker. Note that this is all VERY dynamic so constant tones causes heating in the speaker coil which will change it's impedience. There are some pretty expensive test setups to do this correctly.
Bill Kenney thanks for the explanation. From Paul’s reply it seems the would “look” at your speaker by reading the specs. So basically you either ship the speakers to PS Audio or know someone with some electronic engineering background.
Contact the manufacturer
or do a google search on the forums
The guy's question was not answered in this video.
Yes, it was, it's just not a simple answer.
@@mydogskips2 So, what is the simple answer?
People have a hard time comparing voltage to pressure. For this people use the analogue of maximum distance of cone travel at a higher drive impedance 8 ohms that distance should I be the same at lower impedance this requires a lot of current on some speakers a class a amp can drive any thing like the step up transformer in electrostatics low impedance and inductance
Pushing current back into a amp !
Denon pma 2500ne is pretty much a high current amp
At 5:14 say's he "doesn't want it to sound salesy" and then "recommends" his amps near the end,
primarily he's doing this to flog his stuff. the questions are just a vehicle to do it with.
I recommend 22,000 dollars worth of mono amps. Now that the sales pitch. Lol
Current is the motive force? That sounds like what they talk about with "conventional current." Ben Franklin would be proud. You kept his incorrect theory of positive to negative alive. "Charge carriers" is another one of these "definitions" for the conventional current crowd (Ben is smiling.) For those of us who prefer a bit more physics in our explanation, current refers to electron flow (Yes, Thompson proved that it was negative to positive.) Current relates to the amount of electrons flowing past a given point in one second. From the Oxford Languages dictionary, here is the definition of a coulomb, which is a unit of current. "...the SI unit of electric charge, equal to the quantity of electricity conveyed in one second by a current of one ampere.... " To those of us who prefer to picture electons flowing, rather than "hole flow" (an ion created by an electron that has vacated) an amp is 6.24 times ten to the eighteenth, electrons, flowing past a given point in one second.
Munich is Bavaria not Swabia just to correct you a bit, love your videos!
NO. Volts = pressure, current = FLOW.
Current = SquareRoot(Power/Impedance), for example, for 400 Watts in 4 Ohms you need 10 Amps as SquareRoot(400/4) = 10.
cheers for this info, but is the amps output of an amplifier mentioned in the specs of an amplifier?
ozzy aquanut No, the max output current is not usually mentioned. Power and impedance are the two numbers you usually see in amp specifications. But as expressed above, the power and impedance can easily be calculated to a particular current. With the above example, you can look at a 10 Amps fuse and it will blow if you put it in series with your speaker cable and play at more than 400 Watts in a 4 Ohms speaker.
@@ThinkingBetter for all us non engineers, we just need it in a simple explanation. something written in the specs that is easy for us to understand. the trouble with engineers is that they talk in terms that they think we will all understand......
@@ThinkingBetter for example, i do understand that a manufactures specs stating that the amp outputs 400 watts into 4 ohms. but as Paul said, the speaker may drop to 3 ohms or below.... so how do i tell if an amplifier is safe to play below the nominated 4 ohms? how can i tell from the specs of a given amplifier that it has enough current to play at below 4 ohms??
ozzy aquanut Yes, but unfortunately, too often it’s better to understand the true nature than some false narrative. If you understand what an electron is (subatomic electrically charged particle) and how motion of electrons can be described as current (charge per time), you are at a good start.
Het,Paul,you should have thron that new fangled formula at them for Watts to horsepower. I bet the kidz out there never heard of what horsepower actually means,stay well aft you. DocBC
P=I*V
This is physics II basic circuit stuff. C'mon, Paul, we can handle a lil math. Also, maybe throw up a impedance graph.
You design one yourself, thats what i did
Class H ?? is high current??
Class H and G are pretty much the same thing. For majority of amplifier operations the output power is not more than 20 to 30 watts. For class AB amplifiers only The output stage will generate heat as a function of the voltage rails and the current driving the speakers. To reduce the heat wastage it only requires the voltage rails be sufficient to output the 30 watts, from my experience 25V to 30V plus and minus will be OK. However the output of the amplifier is rated at 100W, and this requires 55V plus and minus voltage rails. There are 2 ways to make the output stage use higher voltage when the input stage sees the prediction of output requirement exceeding the 30W availability.
1. Switch the output voltage rails to the 55V next level.
2. Provide a second output stage in parallel with the primary, and only turn the voltage on when required.
After the peak has passed, it will drop back to the primary voltage after a time period has passed, just set it long enough to prevent frequent triggers.
This is simplistic but has the basics covered. Cheers Bruce.
@@brucemibus9523 thank you
soooo when are u gonna release a budget power amplifier for those that just want a stereo amp that can drive a 12inch sub at 300 watts and coast less than 200 dollars u and me both know there is NO ONE making an amp that i can put on my desk like that im so god damn sick of seeing far overpriced crap and it can only do 300 watts or even 150watts u and me both know u can do far better for 3 thousand dollars
I'm afraid you are getting watts mixed up with amps, so quite a mess really 🙀
You're confused.
Oh shit, I have the older 7kappas. I run a Yamaha R9. I've noticed they sound like shit lately but amp drives other speakers fine.
High current is just a buzzphrase for power amps that are stable below 4 ohms...How far below depends on damping factor and speaker reactance.
A good high power stereo amplifier will have either a massive toroidal transformer with dual power supply's. Or two oversize or two massive toroidal transformers with duel power supply's.
If you do any of the above then it's a proper high power amplifier. And even if it's only 35 watts per channel it will be a clean with plenty of headroom high power 2 x 35 watt's amplifier.
As for SMPS switch mode power supply's they can also be made high power. But a lot of special care needs to be done in the implementation.
You didn't answer high current at all
I have 47 A amp. I guess its enough
A single number tells you very little.
How much current can it deliver when the output voltage is slewing near zero, or of opposite sign as the output current? That matters to speakers.
And Don't forget about fake news on hi end audio
Trump has a high end audio channel ?
@@michaelw3090 Is it great, huge and tremendous, is it the highest end that anyone has ever seen and heard. :¬}
Oh! and does everyone tell him that.
SO who would wathch this and playz amang us and has bad grammer?
ANSWER: me
Man you audiophiles.. Skar audio makes a 1 to 2 ohm stable power amp for 400 bucks..its class a/b. But because its not some "audiophile brand" you wont even look at it.. SMH
@ Julian Ayala, " who says ? " I'd be willing. Thanks for the suggestion.
Man you car audio guys. Thud thud boom boom at 160db is not music.
@@eddiehowey2476 hahaha im not a car audio guy but i get the joke :-)
www.skaraudio.com/products/skv2-1300-2ab-2-channel-high-power-car-amplifier
www.trcelectronics.com/View/Mean-Well/SE-1500-15.shtml?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtf_tBRDtARIsAIbAKe0m4MVMMJ4uG7E-1r63IDkV-CskhwE_TCHJIf9_A3l4XCmljTjj-AUaArsCEALw_wcB
terrible explanation of voltage, current and ohms law. Just wrong. YOU are disseminating the "internet wisdom:" you scathingly refer to
didnt you write a book or something? You SHOULD be a good communicator