conformity [cc]
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
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English subtitles supplied anonymously - cheers to that person!
Dutch subtitles: kedrednael
Spanish: Martin Gonzalez
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references
Sherif, M. (1935). A study of some social factors in perception. Archives of Psychology, 27 (187), pp.17-22.
Asch, S.E. (1951). Effects of group pressure upon the modification and distortion of judgment. In H. Guetzkow (ed.) Groups, leadership and men. Pittsburgh, PA: Carnegie Press.
Asch, S.E. (1955). Opinions and social pressure. Scientific American, 193 (5), pp.31-35.
Berns, G.S., Chappelow, J., Zink, C.F., Pagnoni, G., Martin-Skurski, M.E., and Richards, J. (2005) Neurobiological Correlates of Social Conformity and Independence During Mental Rotation. Biological Psychiatry, 58 (3), pp.245-253.
Weaver, K., Garcia, S.M., Schwarz, N., & Miller, D.T. (2007) Inferring the popularity of an opinion from its familiarity: A repetitive voice can sound like a chorus. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 92 (5), pp.821-833.
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"We're all individuals!"
"I'm not."
- Life of Brain, Monthy Python
Great vid as usual.
@stevenstrumpf7 no it’s life of Brian.
So little words, so many humour. Omg one would almost wish to switch timelines in which this was the standard 😂
Look, this isn't even an argument!
Hello, commenter from 14 years ago. How are you?
In first grade (I was 6 years old) my teacher wrote 1x1 on the board and asked the class "What is one times one?" The first kid said "two", and so did the next kid, and the next and all the kids before me. When it was my turn to answer, being the naive child I was I proudly said "ONE". All the kids looked at me as if I had gone mad. The kid after me thought for a while and answered "two", and so did the rest.
I'll never forget that moment. At first I was very pleased with myself, but as I grew older I started feeling as if there was something I had missed, some unspoken rule I had broken. There apparently was something which all the other kids understood, but I didn't. It didn't seem to matter to them if they were wrong, what was more important was this:
"If I'm wrong, at least everyone else is also wrong."
I broke this spell. I had made them all look like idiots.
Sadly I have spent most of my life trying to solve this riddle of conformity, and I have attributed much of my suffering in life to my inability to conform. I've really, really tried my best, but it is as if there have been some hidden dimension to which I'm not privy. I've been labeled arrogant and rebellious for not complying to social conventions; for wearing strange clothes, using difficult words, not maintaining eye contact and so on. And it has puzzled me to no end how these details could be so very important to others.
Turning this mindset around and instead starting to embrace my peculiar nature is very distressing. What I find most difficult is having to tell people again and again that their well meaning advice to me is completely useless and unhelpful. It's a very alienating experience, but I hope ultimately worth it.
+Mattias Sollerman What an eerie real-life echo of the Asch experiment. Curious isn't it. Is it an evolved aversion to group disharmony? Fear of standing out? A reflex instinct to follow the path of the person ahead - I can imagine that having some value: it's the person ahead who steps into the trap, and the person behind who avoids it .... although the person behind must then take the a new unknown path. Clearly it would be a misapplied instinct in a classroom situation where everyone can step into the same trap. But I remember a couple of group interviews many years ago where this 'follow the safe path' feeling came into play.
In the first, six of us were invited to discuss what we'd like to eat in a group meal together, where no expense was spared. I reflected that there seemed no reason to come to a group consensus - we might as well each have what we wanted. I then mentioned my fondness for zabaglione. The dessert chosen by the next four speakers was zabaglione. The last speaker went off on a self-righteous lecture about the self-indulgence of the West and how he's be happy with a baked potato. But 'zabaglione moment' has since become shorthand within my circles for these kinds of experiences.
SImilar thing happened in a group interview for a psychology diploma - we were invited to speak about our experience of psychological difficulties and how we'd overcome them. I spoke about a previous episode of depression and distancing techniques I'd used which stopped me 'being' the depression and allowed me to see the thought processes with critical detachment. Again, it was a group of six. And every one of the others spoke about experiencing depression and how it was important to stop 'being' the depression. Almost felt like asking to change my answer - far from feeling 'validated'/affirmed, etc, I felt leeched. Like that draining feeling when you're with people who always wait for you to choose first.
+Mattias Sollerman Plot Twist: The teacher actually wrote 1+1 and you were reading her handwriting wrong.
+Mattias Sollerman Are you by any chance an INTP?
Zeph Bowler I assume you are talking about Meyer-Briggs? In that case it depends really. INTP would be a fair assessment in many cases, although I remember getting INTJ last time I did one of those tests some ten years ago.
I must admit that I have great difficulty relating to many personality tests. It's not that I object to putting so called labels on people, as this often can be very helpful indeed, but at times they can obfuscate just as much as they can explain.
My self awareness appears to be somewhat detached and erratic. I very much envy those who honestly can claim to just _know_ what they are; those who talk about "being yourself" and "following your heart". Such notions have to me always seemed utterly incomprehensible.
There are actually many labels which give my life meaning, but I've somehow grown increasingly unwilling to share those with people who only know me superficially.
+Mattias Sollerman I am diagnosed as autistic and identify with this, and know many such people who have recounted similar sentiments and events. It might help you to ask a mental health serviceperson about it, but Internet discussions are unreliable in the absence of professional influence.
That was fantastic. I'm gonna need to watch that one again.
Love your videos :)
You two are the best
POV: you've found a comment from the golden age of CZcams
I remember you @nonstampcollector
I couldn't even tell you how long I tried to be straight. I told people I was, I acted like the stereotypical straight girl, and even managed to convince myself that I wasn't gay for years simply because I wanted to fit in. Then I started watching your videos, I took a philosophhy class, and I started questioning my actions more - all of which helped me to become more independant and feel more confident and just, overall, better about myself.
It's been 10 years, how are you doing now?
And we lean what true friendship is 🏳🌈
Anti-conformists are just as much slaves to convention as conformists - both groups have to look to convention before knowing how to act. Which kind of takes the rebellious wind out of anti-conformists' sails a bit. The position the video is promoting is the middle path - the independent path.
@Michael Freed hell yeah, imagine having actual helpful climate change policies instead of a FUCKING TAX ON A CHEMICAL THAT COMES FROM BREATHING!
Gr3nadgr3gory Yeah it comes from breathing but that’s not exactly what produces the most of that gas -_-
Seriously, wether you are for or against this kind of tax (undecided myself), this isn’t exactly a good argument :/
Hello, i don't think you'd reply anymore cause this is a really old video but.. ill write it anyway. I did a presentation about conformity, and i knew some stuff (not expert level of course) and one of the things i had to mention was anticonformity. I think anti conformity is the independent path you're talking about because it means going against conformity: you choose to do things their way but you also do it your way if it's needed (sometimes you think they're right, sometimes you think they dont so you do what you think is right). What i think you're saying with the phrase ".. are just as much slaves to convention as conformists" is the "false" anticonformity as they just think they they can be independent but they just conform to a smaller group while real anticonformity is actually being independent from both sides, and it is the middle path between the two
@@FuzzyWuzzy132001 If your stance is « I’m going to take what those people do, and do the opposite », you aren’t following a smaller group, although you might belong to one, you’re just confirming yourself to the same group but in a different manner.
That’s what « anticonformity » generally refers to, not in principle but in fact (meaning that although it’s not in the definition of anticonformity, many people who declare themselves or want to be anticonformist will just take it as doing the opposite of whatever some other group is doing)
Treading the middle path between two extremes is also not « true » anticonformity, though, because it’s still trying to conform your path to another.
« True » anti conformity would be doing whatever the heck you want, wether « what you want » is the things you judge necessary, or good, or whatever else. True anti-conformity can lead you to completely join a side on an issue, and not be in the middle at all, as long as you aren’t doing it out of conformity but for the sake of your own goal(s), it’s anti-conformist. Or maybe a-conformist would be better.
@@nathanjora7627 oh wow I didnt think someone would reply to this in an elaborate manner hahah!
I appreciate the thought though, I didn't see it this way! anticonformism or "a conformism" as you said being able to be everywhere, middle, extreme, another extreme or whatever when you feel like it but not because you're peer pressured.
I guess something like this is such a grey zone. In the end, we live in society and we grow up with other so their influence will always be there. Even if you were born in the jungle and only lived with animals the whole time, you're still gonna adapt and influenced by the people or animals (just for the sake of argument) around you.
That's a nice argument. A new way of seeing this. Thank you for your time replying to this. I wish you a merry christmas!
'If i wear certain clothes and my friend starts copying me, should i be mad or pass it offf?'
-How can anyone else decide how you 'should' react to that - what would make their opinion right? You react how you react - the question then is why did you react that way?
TheraminTrees you hurt my brain with your good think
As an infiltrated member of a very powerful cult similar to the cult of scientology, I can definitely confirm everything in this video.
I also noticed that they use a tactic of incremental (really slow) introduction of new, ridiculous concepts and slowly tiptoe around the individual groups of 10-20 people to find the first member to confirm it. In as little as 5 sessions spread through 2-3 weeks people can accept a ridiculous amount of bullshit. It is very costly to be in that cult, and they are an official firm, working as Energy Rejuvenation centre. New members only come for a massage with a so called "expert" who is sitting in front of them and talking some vague nonsence while they're relaxing.
When a client becomes a regular and is there for a year or two, they will proceed to convince him to other kinds of treatments. Less massage, more indoctrination. Then they separate clients into groups (probably on a basis of their conformity).
This group managed to gather many rich and powerful people and politicians in my country, and I've been brought there as a child by my mom.
I'm having a great difficulty getting her out of there, and I think that her mental health is slowly but surely deteriorating. She is a very intelligent person with tested Mensa IQ of 170, she also finished 3 faculty's, but never worked a day in her life.
The cult leader is chinese lady Aiping Wang (age around 50), and her dad was a rich banker. She can't enter Slovenia anymore as 2 people died because of her promises of curing cancer that denied them from taking the medicine. Even secret service of Slovenia and New Zeeland was involved (they have a resort in the middle of the jungle, where they bring some of their loyal members), yet the cult is still operating almost like nothing happened and is fully legal.
My mom wanted to bring me to New Zeeland as a baby (23 years ago), when her and my dad got divorced. At a time, a very powerful lawyer was running things, and my dad got to him, punched him in a face and denied my mom to leave the country with me and my brother. That was the only language he could understand.
The cult operates on a principle of franchises all around the world and they are really hard to notice. They often sell their franchise to a local mogul they indoctrinated, for many millions of dollars, and on top of that, they send their "experts" who run things.
On the territory of Ex Yugoslavia (Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia) I think that there are only 2 or 3 people running things, who really know what this is about and they're sociopaths.
Most of their workers (about 100) and other "presenters" (about 20) are indoctrinated and actually unaware of who they're working for and what they're doing. Most of lower workers work for little to no pay, but receive compensation in "energy".
Their total wealth that I could dig after some research is in the range of about $100M which in USA would be about $500M.
On top of that, some of their loyal members are local billionares, and many many millionares.
I don't know what the fuck is going on, but to me this is worse than any conspiracy theory on the internet, as this shit is real, It's ridiculous yet so powerful, and even I am a part of that. If they did it, I can only imagine how many even more powerful cults are there, manipulating people in power.
I'm sorry for the long text, but this is extremely condensed and I thought that maybe you want to know about this.
I also need help getting my mom out of there.
@My Brand The problem is that few of our richest people are members, as well as many politicians.
@@DataLog Could you start warning people who aren't in the cult about it in advance before they manipulate them into it?
@@larsswig912 Yes, but it's completely ineffective. Plus, I will rarely meet new people. As I mentioned above, they always introduce new members slowly. By the time I meet a new member, he has been there for at least a year or two.
In college, I am the only one who will continuously disagrees with my professor and classmates on arguments that I find logically incorrect. Yet by the end of our period, everyone has agreed to come to some conclusion that fits in a nice little box... and they shun me for being closed minded and over-arguing my point. We get taught WHAT to think, not HOW to think, and I feel like I'm the only one who realizes this. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!! I feel stuck. :(
Tummyboxx , this is why I dropped out of college and took a single trade school course for security .
Sorry to say bub but College is EXACTLY about teaching you what to think, it's instructional learning and then throw you out to the work field like a factory. Learning HOW to think is something you only learn on your own from outside sources, we have the internet for that now
@@islandboy9381 thank God for the internet too. It's about time millennials continue memeing and use the internet to better themselves as well.
Island Boy Hem... No ?
Teaching you what to think is a thing college do, but they also teach you how to think of they are worth their salt.
If only because it’s often necessary in the discipline taught by colleges.
Same about my school, especially during Islam class. I don't argue with my teacher because he's also my relative and he can talk about me acting like an infidel with my parents. My classmates would also be horrified.
'I was once told, and I will quote, that if I didn't like people abusing my free opinion or inquiring mind: 'You can always leave Thailand'.'
-It's really the most despicable sentiment isn't it - 'if you don't agree with us, then you can leave the country'. Rude, entitled and ignorant. I don't know when individuals get comfortable speaking to others that way, but it arises with so many issues. Some people were saying it about UK folks who don't subscribe to the cringeworthy spectacle of royalty.
Why do you dislike royalty?
I'm from a country that used to be a monarchy (or rather, a sultanate) and is now a republic. Because of the political unrest that began when we became a republic, lots of older people want the sultanate back.
Because the "king" "queen" titles are passed on by family, sometimes people who rule can be very, very incompetent as a ruler, and that's one reason why I don't want the monarchy back. But then again, after we became a republic, the general public still votes for incompetent people as presidents. I don't trust anyone in power in my country.
@@larsswig912 you answered your own question
@@FKAAYA I said why _I_ don't like monarchy. Theramin hasn't answered yet, and I asked him.
I had a converse to this situation.
I lived in Europe for a decade, because for a ton of reasons it suited me and I could. When it no longer did, in part because of my own changing perspectives, I moved back to the United States.
At a job I subsequently had in Texas, one of the HR ladies was rather loud and opinionated in a way that seemed ignorant and obnoxious to me, but I generally held my tongue around her.
For example once she said that "racists shouldn't be allowed to eat other cultures food, because food WAS culture." In my head I thought 2 things:
1) She means whomever she deems "racist" in her loud obnoxious and ignorant opinions, not who actually is, and
2) What about Music? Architecture? Philosophy? Politics? Or even religion? Etc etc? Leave it to the loud massively overweight privileged middle class white lady who thinks everyone with a different opinion to her is a racist to reduce everyone else's culture to just food.
...
But I held my tongue and didn't say it.
Now this woman had lived in the UK for some years, and then had moved back, and I knew that. So one day she was complaining for about the dozenth time about how we didn't have "free" Healthcare and as much paid maternity leave (in Texas) like they did when she lived in the UK.
Having listened to an endless number of her rants before, including this one on a number of previous occasions already, I asked her sincerely, and as politely as I could, that since she obviously preferred the UK so much, why did she choose to live in Texas where she obviously wasn't very happy? I continued by pointing out that when I was unhappy with many US policies (including Healthcare) I moved abroad, and when I grew to prefer the policies and other things back here I moved again.
She, for once seeming less aggressive and confident than usual, replied that it was too expensive to live in the UK compared to Texas.
I considered replying that no doubt the cost of living was higher in the UK in part because of always having to pay for all the "free" services offered there that she was missing, all the time for everyone, and not only for herself when she needed it, including the massive waves of people moving there every year who had never paid into the system but immediately drew on them, and that she perhaps SHOULD be paying a higher cost of living to help the less fortunate newcomers in such a system due to her "huwhite privilege" as would be consistent with her political views. But instead, I politely held my tongue knowing that would step on one of her many loud self righteous positions and make her look a hypocrite.
I later regretted not saying that follow up however, because apparently the office gossip rumor mill transformed my sincere (and from my pov polite) question into a belligerent rant of "if ya dunt like thisen here country then huwhy dunt yuh leave?", which was neither my intention nor feeling on the matter, nor how it was delivered at all from my pov. If I was going to be crucified for a misrepresentation of my view anyways behind my back, I might as well have just said what crossed my mind, even if it actually had became a rude retort.
I'm not the sort who is necessarily against change, but I do believe it's often a valid strategy to vote with one's feet. I've done it. She had done it. I was sincerely thinking about what would make her happier in asking. Yet somehow that was twisted into being a rude entitled and arrogant rant, when at least from my POV it was exactly the other way around.
Maybe this is one of a billion example reasons I don't care for being around people all that much.
[from PM] 'If u stroke it, it will come. Do u spose that's bisexuality?'
-Nope. But then I also don't agree that if you stroke it, it will come.
'Do u deeply lust for women in the same way as men?'
-What arouses me is how a person is, how they behave, how they think. The turn-on is the connection I feel. Empathy, generosity, an enquiring mind, an un-jaded mind, etc. That's what's sexy to me.
'To the same degree?'
-Absolutely.
'Do u have love relationships both ways?'
-I have had, yes.
TheraminTrees , that sounds like a uncomfortable conversation .
@@Mikewee777 only if you let it be.
the problem is that is very hard to survive outside groups. if you have different values,aspirations etc, you may not fit in any group. you may not have friendly acquaintances (social friends), and also not being integrated in society is the opposite of attraction, so you may not have a life partner/lover. that's why people choose to conform.
otherwise you're kind of a martyr.
Well said. Not fitting in certainly has its downsides, and dying alone is probably one of them :\
I never conformed and yet I don't see myself as martyr. Why would I when all of my life I did what I wanted?
Emiliapocalypse. everyone dies alone. no one goes with you even if they are present at your death. living is the important factor and living an inauthentic life is its own kind of death.
You might not fit in with the original group, or any group. The question is "Is that okay with you?" For many people it is unthinkable that the group would reject them. For a few, they really don't care what any group thinks of them or whether it accepts them. This is one reason that it's controversial to discuss "schizoid personality disorder" (e.g., LONERS) Some see it as a personality disorder while others see it as a lifestyle choice.
"Is it more important to you to be loved or to be right?" That is the question that each person must answer for themselves. Most people prefer to be loved.
Maslow's table of human needs specifies that you need to be respected / loved / have intimate relationships, thus, this is a problem. Not to mention that happiness comes from optimism and usually its the people around you (how you relate to them) who can give you this secure feeling of "they'll be there when i need them". (you will even see people with grave illnesses which are happy, if they are surrounded with loving people).
Imho, before you try to comply with the current people around you, you should see if other communities (social groups/neighborhoods/cities/towns/countries/continents) are better suited for you (then you can gradually raise the level compromises). Especially when children are raised more in the "internet neighborhood" than the physical neighborhood.
" Mindless conformity! It's cool, it's fun! Be just like everyone else! Individuality only causes pain!" I suppose that could be the motto for many institutions out there.
Great video ThermaminTrees.
Hello, commenter from 14 years ago. How are you?
My mother and siblings are sorely disappointed in my becoming unmoored from the Mormon church. Yet, it was my mother's phrase, "Just be yourself" that's always meant more to me than "I love you". I waited until my grandmother passed away to start telling people that I'm an atheist. Silly me. Thanks for the fine video output.
"Where's your will to be weird?" - Morrison
+BAwesomeDesign Great quote.
@@TheraminTrees It so often turns into an imperative to be weird. It's just sides of a coin.
now lets take a look at for example punks, or the now dead subculture emo.
Socialist-ish/communist ideas and weirdness become the norm, and especially in case of punk, you get a massively homogenous echo chamber
EDIT; Communism and socialism in punk and weirdness in emo
@@catriona_drummond exactly
@@catriona_drummond in movies we see a trendy form of weird. But when people are actually weird in real life, they're shunned, or even killed.
There is also the objectively bad weird, like desiring to murder people.
"The emperor has no cloths" springs do mind.
Don't ask him to do the dusting.
*clothes
The time hast come. Thy mus eddit the thine comment
With each video I watch, I step one step closer to sanity. Thank you.
This is excellent! And the whole presentation is very, very professional. An added bonus are the references given under the clip which also means that this can be extremely useful for students.
I didn't know you've been making content on CZcams for this long. You greatly improved on visuals and as always I appreciate the effort you put on the information you present :))
Conformity means group cohesion. Being an individual often means making enemies. I personally conform very little, but I also have very few friends. Obviously I saw the tradeoff of friendship for rationality as preferable, but I can understand why so many don't.
Indeed. I must be cruel, only to be kind. I think being honest with people is being kind to them and respecting them. Not telling them something, or telling them what they want to hear instead of my honest opinion and facts goes against my values and I think it does violence to human relationships. It certainly is not how I want other people to treat me. However, the vast majority of people can't handle this view.
dcacnc
I don't understand your point. There is no "industrial waste in our water supply", nor would that have anything to do with either being rational or conforming.
dcacnc Yeah, but "Google' is not an objective, unbiased source. It's quite easy enough to find plenty of crackpot theories through a search engine, while Wickipedia is also "available to me" and much less likely to lie. But in either case, it still wouldn't be relevant to a conversation about rationality or conformity.
dcacnc Just saying "in reality" doesn't make it true -- it's still only an assertion until you provide evidence. And the evidence (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy) doesn't suggest a conspiracy here.
It's okay to go against the consensus sometimes -- people often act irrationally, especially when they're trying to belong to a group. However, consensus typically arises because what the majority agrees upon happens to be true. Being part of the non-conformists isn't something to be proud of when denying unbiased evidence is what got you into that group. Nor is this necessarily non-conformity, as such beliefs do find a consensus among a group (that just happens to be a smaller group than the main one).
dcacnc
Did you even read the link? It's not just about what's in water, but dosage -- apparently these things are in such small amounts that they don't cause harm (although they do reduce cavities according to a 2000 statistical survey). The corrosive effects of sodium silicofluoride are negated by adjustment of the water's pH. Experts who understand how to make water safe have done so, and non-experts armed with only a little information (such as "sodium silicofluoride is dangerous") draw poor conclusions.
For another good unbiased source, check out this article from the World Health Organization: www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/naturalhazards/en/index2.html about how much fluoride is dangerous and compare that to typical American levels. Were you aware that fluoride occurs naturally? We add some because American water doesn't have enough to be at a preferably healthy range, but there is a "belt" in America of water that naturally has too much, and there's also a "belt" where conspiracy theorists gather their examples from to try to prove that fluoridation is risky. Stop getting your data from biased sources!
I might react in any number of ways - it would depend on my mood, my relationship with the person, the whole context. I wouldn't have a stock reaction.
Order=Conformity, Freedom=Chaos. It is there where the conundrum of our existence lies.
Except that conformity is at the core of the greatest causes of chaos.
MrARKY89 You’re very wrong.
Some level of conformity might be necessary to attain order, but that’s just a practical truth, not a mathematical one. Given enough time, at least some groups of independent non conforming agents will have an orderly structure.
In practice, some conformity is needed, but that’s only to speed up the process, and isn’t necessary at all levels.
Free agents whose conformity is only at very basic levels like some values and langage, will very much be able to create orderly structures. That’s why economy can work at all.
And opposite, total conformity will necessary lead to either stagnation, if the objects can be stagnant, or to chaos, if they can’t (humans and their societies are very much objects that can’t be absolutely stagnant for ever), as new situations will arise that the order can’t adapt too without changing, and can’t change without breaking conformity.
Conformity can lead to a fleeting period of order, but it will inevitably lead to a chaotic end in a dynamic system.
'have you ever questioned your diet?'
-Oh all the time. Thinking about what I'm eating is, for me, part of the process of eating.
'How much to you abide and value things you realize are just cultural values?'
-Really depends on what those cultural values are. As long as they don't impinge on folks, I don't feel the need to go round challenging everything, nor to provoke. But I generally participate only in what feels valuable and what feels 'me'. And I respect other folks' right to do the same.
People are afraid to be left out or ridiculed for having their own opinion ...same difference i suppose ...but overall this leads to them following the noise just for the sake of not being left out out of fear of being alone regardless of what they believe in.
People need to understand that yes, we are all special snowflakes but that also means that were all just a bunch of white powder in a snow drift too. Difference is ok, just dont make a big deal out of it.
Is it really true that it gets easier to speak out against the majority opinion? I'm a naturally pretty outspoken person but in recent years I've found it more and more difficult and anxiety-inducing to speak out on controversial matters when I know I'm going against what my friends think...
Suzy Lightning i think experience helps. I view myself as being on the political fringe, meaning i am often arguing against the majority. due to this i am less hesitant to speak out against a group and less likely to conform.
However that often changes when arguing with someone i have a personal relationship with. while i will still disagree with them, i often find my arguments and policies become less extreme, to prevent damaging the relationship.
@@Gregorsnek I also do the same with close relationships, or people I'm becoming acquaintances with. I do criticise, because I think that's important, but not as harshly.
@@Gregorsnek That's normal though, it doesn't mean you aren't being authentic. I think everyone should listen carefully to a new acquaintances views so that you can weigh how to engage them. Especially if it's someone you have to work with and see every day. But knowing that people do this also makes me suspicious of people, because it means most people are presenting more moderate views than they actually hold.
'Memoirs of a defrocked psychoanalyst' - Martin Shepard; 'Love's Executioner' - Irvin Yalom; 'On becoming a person' - Carl Rogers. These are three I've mentioned in the threads for this video - books that invite us to reassess the dubious boundaries we've been happy to yield to.
Been watching a lot of your and Qualia's videos recently, and I've been recommending them to some friends. I appreciate deeply your love of knowledge and your skeptic approach. The accessible format of the videos you and Q do readily lend themselves to sharing. What's more, your dedication to citation, to giving credit where it's due, is admirable. Thanks from the west coast of the US!
14 years later I can safely say that this video had a profound impact on my life.
You sir are an academic badass. I greatly enjoy your ability to present the academic literature clearly and comprehensively.
Wow! Powerful message…can’t get any clear then this…thank you!❤️
I LOVE the deft use of social psychological studies in your work. Thank you so much!
I remember in school on occasion being the only one who disagreed on a answer, but be correct. I think this reinforced my awareness that people can conform and made me more willing to make sure my answers were genuine to my opinion. Perhaps that helped me to be as critically minded as I am today.
Yep. Had a wonderful chat with a friend way into the early hours when I was up in Edinburgh last week - fluid, unselfconscious, uninhibited. No jarring moments of false etiquette or acquiescence. So much more is experienced - and learned - in those kinds of exchanges.
lol i can only think of goth kids from south park now
Me too haha
"will you help me?" "no, if i would do that i would be conformist" , "will you help me?" "no, if i would do that i would be conformist" , "will you help me?" "yes, because if i would said no, i would be same as the others".
Conformist nazi cheerleaders yah
I know how you feel. I grew my hair out for Locks of Love. Over the past two years, I've been called a hippie, a rebel, a biker, a drummer in a rock band, a girl, and so on. It's definitely interesting to see people's reactions and why, if you don't mind using yourself in a sociological experiment.
As always, I click your video not knowing if I will want to see the content, and leave feeling intrigued and enlightened.
Your videos are ones that are always enjoyable to watch no matter what its about. Its very rare to find this quality in a channel.
@C0nc0rdance Yep, it does tend to be college students. I remember when I was at uni, doing other people's experiments was virtually a full-time occupation. Which was often a lot more interesting than the lectures.
Another brilliant video, TT! I'm not excluding myself when I say this, but It seems that so many people are clouded by the invisible pressure of conformity, and never get to see it. It's great when people make videos/arguments like this, step outside things and see/show the constraints put on us by ourselves, other people and society.
As someone simply made (born, whatever) radically different (ADHD-PI autistic twice-exceptional southpaw female), I CAN’T conform, and I can tell you, society horrifically punishes those who don’t conform, regardless of reason. The self-ending rate for people like me is scary high, as a result of routes to safety being systematically cut off. 😞
Wow, everyone should watch this video these days. So needed in today’s society
This seems very apropos right now given recent events on social media.
Like my dad told me the other day, "We're not gonna agree, so we're just not gonna talk about it."
I looked him right in the eye and said, "Shouldn't that be more of a reason to discuss it?"
"No. Because we're not gonna agree!"
Alright... your loss.
This is by far the best channel that have subscribed to 😊👍👌👏
Cheers!
Very inspiring and eye-opening! I consider myself to be a person who stand firmly by my beliefs and views, but this video certainly forced me to reassess the situation.. I guess, after a while, conformity turns into a habit and passes without second thought
Been having a lot of problem with this in the lgbt community. Thank you for this video.
I will keep this lesson in mind the next time I am sitting in court on a jury. Actually I will just keep this in mind in general. Thanks for taking the time to produce and post this video. Very enlightening information. Keep up the good work. I appreciate your efforts. You are a great teacher.
@MrLawrenceV "simply because they're afraid of what might happen."
-It' so interesting to push beyond that fear and see what actually happens, isn't it - often bears no resemblance to what's imagined.
As JLP says, the thoughts in your head are not your own. Just watch them come and go without entertaining. And live in present.
This video is timeless. Can't believe I'm just seeing this.
Yes, I'm the type that leaves groups because they get to popular. Oh boy I made a lot of enemys and sometimes it's dangerous to be in the minority. You won't get near what you want without conforming a bit to others that may help. You need zeros to make a million...
didnt know you made so much videos after "instruction manual for life".. (wonderful one!!)
and now the rest..
watching your work helps me to put my thoughts in order by the way how you represent your ideas, observations and personal experience in videos!
thank you for simplicity! :)
When I started offering what I considered valid criticisms on atheist channels, they actually treated me just as bad, if not worse, than Christians have treated me for not believing in their god. It almost makes me want to pretend I'm a Christian again. If I have to be inauthentic, at least I can be inauthentic among family members who care about me. Random atheists certainly don't care.
***** How you treat people on the Internet is in the spectrum of how you treat people in general. In fact, it's quite telling. How you treat someone when you are anonymous and there are no consequences says quite a bit about you.
Saying "it's just the Internet" is a cop-out.
I think you're confusing "groups" with the "internet." Big difference :)
You may have missed the point of the video, though. Be who you are, don't simply conform and pretend to be something you're not, just to get people to like you.
LadyhawksLairDotCom "Character is who you are in the dark."
Mike Richard nobody worships Darwin and few people worship dawkins.
Will you share specifics?
Outstanding - thanks. As a student of business behaviour and marketing, this is very thought provoking, and I can see how I can put this into more conscious action.
Just like the story of "the king's new robe"
Do you mean "the Emperor's New Clothes"?
Sounds like someone's conforming to the title name most commonly used for the tale of that monarch's noval attire.
I think the essentially same story has different names in different cultures.
Your videos are seriously some of the highest quality writing and minimalist illustrative animation I have seen anywhere, in any medium or forum. Thank you so much! Inspiring, insightful, and intellectually nourishing. I would take a handful of these videos over an (even Unitarian) church sermon any day!
This reminds me of prom. I LOATHE dancing. Then the music began to play and the lights dimmed and everyone started grinding. I asked this guy whom I always suspected to be gay too to go "chill" with me for awhile. We ended up making out outside. I'll never forget that. Double non-conformity felt good. =D
This video is a great example of the way we should be.
I love Theramin and his brothers videos. Insightful, intellectual, informed, and laced with common sense.
I work in Thailand and I, being English, stand out from the other people I work with who agree with the management under the fallacy of authority. Our old head of English Program once made a comment about children brushing their teeth immediately after their dinner
I read something before the meeting this was aired in to the contrary
Well done presentation!!
Being autistic I lack the ability to conform (as easily), and I know how vital a role this ability plays to social interactions; I struggle to cooperate in a group of people, to adjust to the needs of others, or modify my behavior in a way that makes other people comfortable around me. Lacking this intrinsic ability to conform with a group sets me apart, always an outsider, someone that cannot be trusted, nor can I trust those around me.
It is a very lonely and very difficult way to live. I think a compromise of conforming just enough to fit in with a group, while not allowing peer pressure to distort your perceptions is the preferable option.
Shall I tell you one of the quickest ways to grind a conversation to a halt - start talking about determinism. You kill the butterfly. I know what determinism is and implies. And yep - you could go round every CZcams video, or interrupt every conversation where 'choice' is mentioned, and comment that it's an illusion because of determinism. Then what? Discussion has its own deterministic influence - without consciousness-raising conversation, people don't even get the *illusion* of choice.
This, as all videos from theramintrees, is ridiculously well produced, insightful and interesting. Thanks for another 10 minutes of brilliance!
4:00 my jaw dropped to the floor.
I love this! You make human behavior and psychology topics sound so easy.
On this topic: I am generally against inauthentic behavior for fear of being unconformist, however I do realize the advantages of conforming within certain structures like organizational and business structures. So it's best to only conform when it's for the greater good or a future benefit rather than just the positive feeling of not submitting to conformity!
Think about it, though. If everyone around you sees X and you see Y, it's probably your _own_ vision that's wrong. Some of the people who "conform" in Asch's experiment might be thinking more, not less, because they are using not just their eyes, but the opinions of the other people, as _sources of information_ in making their best guess as to the correct answer. It depends on the wording of the question: "Which line do you _think_ is longest?" vs. "Which line do you _perceive_ to be longest?"
+Simon Björkman Of course, but in the Asch experiment the expectation is set up that the others are simply other participants. The real participant is given no reason to believe they would lie, so it comes down to whether you think your eyes deceive you, or 3 other people's eyes all deceive them.
Of course, it's a bit more complicated since you can also factor in that the others are factoring in the other's responses as well. Then each participant's response contributes less evidence than the previous one, since the responses are not independent.
***** Well it comes down to what the questioner is asking. If they ask how the line appears to you, conforming would be dishonest and an attempt to save face socially. However, if the questioner asks what each person believes is the _correct_ answer, in this case it is rational to use the opinions of the other participants as a source of information.
Be careful when you say things like "there is a mass delusion and I am awake". A large portion of the masses currently believes that there is a mass delusion, each believing they are one of the few awake. It is a popular state of mind.usually coupled with irrational beliefs like conspiracy theories.
You haven't said anything crazy though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Self-awareness is one of the most difficult things you can possibly accomplish, so more power to you. The thing to look into are cognitive biases, I'm sure there are several books on them. Memory biases are my favorite.
Ever hear of libet's experiments on free will? Or "free won't" as he called it, because he found that we initiate most of our actions a half-second _before_ we're consciously aware of deciding to act, which is another way of saying most of our decisions are unconscious. We are under the illusion that we control ourselves, when really we're running on autopilot by way of old algorithms.
Since we spend so much of our time running old algorithms, true changes in our life have to happen by a concerted effort to develop new habits and patterns of behavior: to write oneself, like a program writing its own code. I've heard that the way to be confident, for example, is to fake it until it becomes natural. So it's a matter of deciding what kind of person to be, and faking it until a habit forms such that the unconscious will automatically run that pattern when you're not trying.
Self-awareness on that level requires near constant vigilance. Before everything one does, one must ask "is this rational? Is this in the best interest of my values? Is there something else I ought to be doing now? Am I acting on my emotions? Am I acting by habit or have I truly decided to do this? Is it possible I am suffering from a bias? Are my memories accurate enough? Did I really come to that conclusion on the basis of evidence, or did I first conclude and then look for supporting evidence?"
That last one is common. In an argument there's a part of your brain that automatically denies the opponent's claim, then finds evidence to justify the denial, then makes it look like the denial came after and because of the evidence, so you're given the illusion that you are reasoning when you're actually rationalizing. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective, because it's useful to win an argument even when you're wrong, and the best way to win when you're wrong is to really believe you're right. So we're programmed to be stupid and stubborn when we argue.
You are assuming that people who don't conform are not processing other people's opinions as sources of information. It takes more thought to look at other opinions, process them and evaluate them, and form ones own opinion. It takes less thought to look at other opinions and simply subscribe to them.
greenjelly01
You do not describe in a comprehensible form.
I understand though and it is true. For example how does an opinion based systematically on what others of Similar strategies that work for them really have to do with what is supposed to be viewed from a perception identifying the observance of the same or similar really have to do with the fact of what something should be or seems to be according to all other alikeness to work as strategy have to do with the actual difference of what something that only appears to have to be because it relates like this or that with all those or them so odds are the same applys to this person too. This is assuming and not a fit bases of how it works u less we. Conjoin ourselves with misperceived inadequately by cutting short a perceived acknowledgement; not that , "what we see, is what? we are told -to see" and "not what the truth of it really is?".
+Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨Ʒ fucking conformist
5:48 This is the way I've been feeling lately. It seems like every "cause" I've allied myself became infested with fanatics. After awhile I realize I'm behaving like a fanatic and leave, only to find the same pattern elsewhere.
Maybe Billy Joel was right: "Now with the wisdom of years, I try to reason things out. And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts. Save us all from arrogant men and all the causes they're for. I won't be righteous again. I'm not that sure anymore." - Shades of Grey
That's why theres only one thing I really worship and trust with my whole being. And that is intuition. After all what else lead you to realize that the groups we find ourselves allied with are no better than the enemies we try to destroy?
This video is more important now than ever.
Just look at the ideological group think pouring through, and being taught in classes at Uni's in the west today.
This is a very good video, even 11 years later. I remember going through similar theory in my college psychology classes, thank you for bringing me back.
Humans amuse me... *Chuckles* I never conform, I simply do not understand why I should. Unless I gain something specific by pretending to do so of course, or risk some rather unpleasant consequences for not doing so, but I do not delude myself and believe in it. I keep studying psychology, but I don't think I will ever truly understand you humans...
Also, why would anyone want acceptance that badly? I have a friend that hates my guts but sticks around because I never directly lie. You just need to find an angle to make people stick, make it worth their while, and there is no need to conform at all. Especially when you are someone who's likable deep down. (Unlike me, which, in all likelihood, deserves to burn in Hell for all eternity. *Chuckles*)
I like you. ^^
You seem to conform to the English spelling, structure and grammar, but maybe it seems like English and the comment you made is actually saying something else.
Even your chuckle is something someone who thinks they are superior would do before patting the young un on its head and sending them back into the crowd.
It nether hell or heaven for me. I've a special place I am sailing to
Yeah, they're a strange bunch but at least there are a few diamonds in the rough out there. Important to encourage the few that you do see so the bastards around them dont grind them down.
@VictorLepanto Did you see the point I made in the video about where conformity can be constructive? This video doesn't ignore the occasional benefits of conformity - it explicitly refers to them. But it also makes a case against negative conformity. We don't just conform because we reasonably 'trust' each other. We often conform out of fear - and that can snowball into hazardous social problems.
Majority are led by minorities as majority do not think and lead , but majority obey and follow whilst minority thinks and leads .............. Hence one leader and many followers ........ Minorities are inovators and developers.
I wanna be the minority, I dont need your authority...
There is so much that's so quotable here! And applicable - immediately applicable - to so much of my life.
This time watching, the image of the one person expressing an opinion 3 times (juxtaposed with three people expressing the same opinion one time each) was very powerful. Normally, I use youtube on the go from my phone, and I can't see the graphics and writing in some of your videos. But this time I'm at my computer, and WOW do your graphics add to your already fantastic narrating.
You explained the dynamics of cancel culture 10 years in advance
Collectivism = Conformity
What do you mean?
@TheraminTrees Thank u, I see ur point more clearly now. I asked some questions just to get a different perspective. Also asking questions esp. fr knowledgeable ppl is one of my favorite ways of learning. I did think it was a tiny bit facetious but I can only imagine all the pms u get wanting to be their 'agony aunt'. I know it must be draining at times but it's the exchange of being awesome! So thank u thank u & Ur still my favorite that didn't change.
Excellent video Link...very well presented as usual.
I recall times growing up in the church where I felt pressure to react to certain events in a particular way. Many times I played along. People would be happy and maybe even impressed, but I ultimately felt sick and empty inside.
Your encouragement to question things is spot on. But, this ability to stand against the crowd has to do, somewhat, with self-image. Positive self-esteem isn't something religion promotes, so we need to.
A great study on the humans natural (and phenomenal) fear of being received as a wrong individual in a social group. Good video.
Brilliant... I love it. This has been the thing that I have found very difficult to deal with lately. Bystander syndrome. I am sick of the world being bystanders and conforming with public opinion, simply because its the majority (or perceived majority) decision. I asked my mum today "How can the world save itself, if it can't even help one man" after I saw a disabled man crying in the street and everybody just walking past. I think we have lost our humanity and are just bystanders.
I've seen this video, and your series on transactional analysis. You've helped fine tune my perspectives and understandings very much. The way you present the matter tells me that you have a very thorough understanding of what you speak about. The visual representations also helped immensely. Looking forward to more!
Fascinating. I never knew about the three for one = one three times statistic. We see how people believe the world is getting more violent when actually it is getting safer - but the media repeats bad news continuously. It also shows how much power is in the media's hands. That is something worth being scared about.
Thankyou for continuing your output of videos. All are very intelligent. All your videos build a case to move away from established ideas when outdated.
as a serial contrarian on impulse i can say that conformity is not all bad. i reject the group and am outspoken but that can cause isolation, depression and a feeling of paranoia when you try and try to be authentic but seem to push yourself farther from the group. i would posit that there are correlations with increased isolation and group rejection that lead to bad outcomes just as often as conforming all the time. i think you’re right when you say develop a healthy skepticism instead of just “don’t conform and be yourself”
@spiderfingers86 I think 'the closet' can be an invaluable temporary position in which to amass ideas, thoughts, boundaries, etc., and build courage before taking that step outside. I remember I used my time inside the closet to anticipate responses and think through what I was prepared to accept. Some folks seem to think the closet's always bad - but I think there's no reason to go out unprepared.
The three fold repetition reminded me of a line from Carroll's "The Hunting of the Snark", "What I tell you once, what I tell you twice, what I tell you three times is true." As a lecturer I was trained to repeat the information I was presenting three times, first to give an introductory summary of the main points, then the lecture, then a concluding summary. Three also plays a part in our perception of number, many pre-numerate societies have the words "one", "two" and "many".
Thank you. In your comments, you talk about 'feeling' this apologetic guy's dissonance. I recall feeling something similar when I first started working through the arguments. With my more limited early-teen vocabulary, I called it a 'dead zone'. When I experienced a dead zone in what someone was presenting me, I would be driven on to pinpoint its source - which would turn out to be some fatal contradiction. I think of those dead zone experiences as my religion-drugged rationality awakening.
9:29 I don’t like hugs. Not by my mother, not by my aunt, not even by a potential girlfriend. And so far, I’ve always told people that I don’t like hugs and nobody called me antisocial for it.
@1RationalMind Thanks! I think so many psychology studies can really provide a healthy shake-up to social processes, and I like the implicit invitation these offer to try out different behaviours.
Best video I've seen on youtube. I refused to conform to any group for most of High School and was heavily ostracised as a result - but I wouldn't change my approach; eventually I moved to a High School of more sensible people where I found like minded people who became friends :)
Good to hear from you again. Excellent video. As usual you have me thinking. Always something interesting. Thanks.
Great video. The problem is that almost anyone will agree with these concepts, yet very few will actually act on them. Goes back to the 'knowing vs acting' point.
@TheraminTrees, I would like to thank you for all your videos. I think you are doing a great job in increasing psychological awareness in a very accessible and clearly presented fashion. I appreciate all the time & effort you put into it. It has been very helpful personally. Thanks a lot. :)
@airandfingers What a great quote - yes, those questions really bring a lot of valuable stuff into awareness. Maybe some of it will eventually settle back down into unawareness, more or less where it was before. But maybe some will prompt identifiable developments in our thoughts and behaviour. Love the title too - kind of the reverse of S&M.
This is sure to help me remember the Asch study for my A level psychology, thanks!
A level psychology was so much fun. Good luck!
Once again TheraminTrees you've produced a video that I will come back to again and again in the future. Well done.
This is a subject close to my awareness. I have had trouble articulating these concepts in the past. Thank you for being so articulate in your delivery. It is now much clearer in my mind.
Although most people find it very uncomfortable to stand out and risk looking foolish, it is my greatest fear to appear normal and risk just fitting in...and my greatest joy is to stand out and look foolish.
This is the single scariest video I have ever seen. Thanks for opening my eyes during a convenient time. You have finally changed my life.
Thanks Thanks Thanks Thanks Thanks Thanks Thanks Thanks Thanks Thanks .
I don’t want to be married but the social pressures are so strong it is hard to avoid the spoken and unspoken messages of society. Excellent presentation. Thank you
If you don’t want to get married then don’t get married.
brilliant, knew the studies, knew and agree with your arguments a long time, but the world needed this video :)
Every time after I have watched a new video of yours, I feel much smarter. :D
Thanks for sharing! Keep it up!
@karolis685 'but how should one decide when he is unsure?'
-If someone's undecided, they don't have a fixed view - this video is talking about people persistently going against their conscious inclinations because of social pressure, not people who are undecided. If someone tries something new and likes it, they're not conforming. If they try it, don't like it, so don't do it again, they're not conforming. But if try try it and don't like it, but continue to do it, then they're conforming.
seriously...thank you for this video. Your videos are VERY important. Your doing a wonderful job, i can't express this enough. Your very clear and concise that no one i feel is able to replicate
I think in the long run being inauthentic for the sake of ease and safety is the harder road. It wears you down! Great video.
Wow! I've been looking for this and I'm so happy I found it! So nicely put and explained. I agree completely. Thank you for sharing!
The rules behind CZcams's automatic assignment of some comments as 'spam' are not known to me - perhaps you should direct your comment to them as I never flag any comments as spam. Personally, when I see spam, I delete it.