35. When did Judaism become Matrilineal? (Jewish History Lab)
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Henry is an outstanding educator and gifted speaker. So glad I found his lectures
Y'know, the actual verse from Deuteronomy sounds more like a descriptive caution about the risks to the children of inter-marraige, rather than a prescriptive declaration that you have to kick children from inter-marriages out of the community.
So "don't inter-marry because your kids will probably turn away from the covenant." Not "Kids from inter-marriages are to be kicked out of the covenant".
Moses married outside the faith!
@virginiahansen320
*It's pretty clear Jews make good bankers and lawyers but they're lousy theologians, their inability to understand scripture sometimes baffles me. This whole matrilineal and patrilineal debate isn't even that hard, it's about the adhering to the Covenant and the ways of GOD which identifies a people as his people and not deferring from it which identifies a people belonging to another god.*
*Patrilineal or Matrilineal doesn't determine Jewishness, intermarriages only increases the possibility and introduction of foreign gods to the other spouse and the child or children of that union to worship and deviate from the True GOD that's why intermarriage wasn't recommended; example #1- Solomon building altars to the pagan gods of his wives was his ultimate downfall; example #2- Elijah had to flee for his life from Jezebel the Phoenician wife of Ahab who introduced worship of the pagan god Baal to Israel which forced a showdown between Elijah and the Prophets of Baal who the nation of Israel had gone astray over. Eventually through Elijah GOD stepped in to prove his superiority over Baal and Jezebel's Baal prophets were put to death and the nation of Israel returned to True GOD worship. Jewishness Is Based True GOD Worship Over Patrilineal or Matrilineal descent.*
Dr. Abramson, I must say, you have some VERY interesting commenters on your videos. Hats off to you for your patience and diligent responses!
Sigh.
I agree! He definitely impresses me!
@@HenryAbramsonPhD you are very helpful to those who want to gain knowledge. God be with you.
@@Benjamin-jo4rf I wondered about this practice as well. OT text list patrilineal descent although it occasionally mentions mothers and wives. But Judaism emphasizes the matrilineal descent. The patrilineal I associated with the Y-chromosome, which is passed on from father to son. From the mother one of the X-chromosomes is passed on.
Thank you Dr. Abramson! I hope you are well in these difficult times, Shalom!
Same to you!
@@HenryAbramsonPhD Just one question Dr. Abramson. Why didn't you mention the episode in Vayikra 24:10-14? The story of the Israelite woman and the Egyptian man's son? While this story is really about misusing the name of HaShem it also clearly shows that the son of an Egyptian man, who is not a Jew and an Israelite woman was considered a member of the nation.
@@AvnerRosenstein-ULTRA-LXV That's revisionist Rabbinic interpretation. In point of fact, the Egyptian man's son was deemed non-Israelite and considered a foreigner.
@@ZviJ1 if he was a foreigner he would've been expelled, not held to the same law as native Israelites.
@@AvnerRosenstein-ULTRA-LXV What's going on is that this gentile is being held to the same standard because he was sojourning among the Israelites.
For those who know Hebrew and do not depend on rabbis for "translation", they can see from the Text that the Egyptian man's son is not an Israelite: he is labelled "Ben HaYisra'elit" (son of the Israelite woman), whereas the man he scuffled with is labelled "Ish haYisra'eli" (the Israelite man).
First, of all thank you as always Dr. Abramson for your historical enlightenment, research, time, passion, and easily consumable lectures. I see you made a video to fill in where I had questioned you on lineal descent. Thank you for filling us in on where you were coming from with your statements.
While I still do not agree that the biblical record, demonstrates a solid case for Matrilineal society(except perhaps from a secular liberal historians POV for simple mention of some of the women in the historical text), I now see where you were coming from.
When I think Matrilineal, I think about more than only definitions within a culture debating what makes up their own culture. I think about Fathers and Sons and Family/Tribe names. I think about headship, chiefs, and authority. I think of Fatherly and firstborn blessings. I think of descent and carrying the name. I think about Fathers giving their daughters in marriage. I think of geologies and names of nations and peoples taken from ____. In many way, I can feel the agenda and then the circular justifications, stretching and twisting, to try to prove the case. I can also witness in the comments, my own included, the zeal for truth and godly ways (or ungodly ways) to take root in the culture. I understand your lectures are strictly historical in examining judaism's take here.. So again, thank you for all the great input.
I now understand the modern Jewish society(and some of it historically) views Judaism as a matrilineal subject to some degree. I now understand some of their history and justifications for how that idea was formed. (I still disagree on many points and justifications..Oh Well...) I also think there are religious and social and historical problems in holding tightly to such a creed.
That said, this weeks Torah Portion reminds us of the vital role of Jewish women, as Puah and Shiprah preserved the Israelites in Egypt, avoidiing disaster with strength and faithfulness to God. Shalom.
I'm glad you found the video useful!
Concise yet exhaustive, great work...
Karaites and Samaritans practice patrilineal descent, and Ashkenazim DNA shows that there was widespread intermarriage in that group betwixt Jews whose ancestors were from the Middle East and other residents of the Roman Empire. The DNA evidence for these European Jews, also, demonstrates that there is more Jewish ancestry on the male side than the female. This indicates that patrilineal descent was quite common during much of Jewish history. 'Tis likely that once the insistence on matrilineal descent was established, the religious authorities, as authorities ofttimes do, chose to rewrite history and insist that it had always been the case.
Pretty much this.
I'm sephardic Samaritan, followed patrilineality. But as for my view, intermarriage is not a good idea and it's a period. From my entire family that came to South America around 1800 to 1870, I was the only tho desired to go back to the Faith of HaShem. I had a christian mother, may she rest in peace, and she told about the ten commandments and old testament and jesus, but I only adopted the old testament and I felt that something was wrong with NT. I was asking others and it seems that generally many descendants of Israel started to return because of a mother who was a christian. But hold on! Rarely I also heard cases of women that returned to Judaism because of their father was observant and her mother was liberal xtian. So it seems at a spiritual level most of the time the sparks are going through matrilineal descent but sometimes there is an exception. Another possibility is that is matrilineal mother to daughter only and patrilineal father to son only. What is for sure is that tribal affiliation goes by father so if there is a patriarch from some tribe he could have been turning tribe members from Yehuda to his tribe, for example Ephraim.
The groups of Jews that follow partiacial side would also be mixed and have as much non Jews dna and ashkenazi Jews that follow the mother. DNS works both ways.
You're videos are so amazing. Thankyou.
I enjoyed the lecture and artwork merged to convey your points.
Wonderful! I'm glad that you enjoyed it!
Thank you for being a Member!
thanks also for the nice shabbat painting i remember watching bonanza,and seeing a girl called rebeeca praticing the shabbat blessing and the famous priestly sermon in numbers 6 the lord bless you and keep you etc,thank you
That's the one
I thought painting art was discouraged ? But I guess if it promotes matriarchy the opposites true . Is this a paradox?
First and far most, thank you as always for your explanation.
I am not at all convinced of exclusive matrilinear descendancy, yet I appreciate your willingness to offer insight.
The one note I have is that Karaites have always practiced patrilinear descendancy.
Thank you, Professor
I am glad you found the video useful
I have heard the same thing about the Karaites, but don't think there's any 'should' about it.
@mariannehancock8282
👋 I'm not sure I understand your point.
Do you mind expanding on it?
Genesis 17: 7 God clearly tells you its from Abraham or man and by birth. You can't change the truth with a man made law just like God puts the spirit of a man in him at conception of pregnancy.
Absolutely informative and Fasinating.
Back in my grandparent's day (1917 in Georgia) an Ashkenaz was marrying out if he chose to marry a Sefardita. The rabbi refused to marry my grandparents. So they became way less Jewish. That passed down to my mother. I had to grab any shred of Judaism with both hands.
What can we learn from this story? Rabbis can be idiots too? Did they go to the Sephardic Rabbi then?
I’m genuinely interested in knowing why they were being denied?
Can you or someone in the chat explain?
Thank you.
@@HalifaxPeacock racism. There’s a lot of examples of ashkenaz racism towards other Sephardic Jews
Never thought about it but it sure is fascinating.
Yup
i also will like to say that you stay safe during these turbalant times cause not only youre dealing with the covid situation ,but also real trouble with peace in the sates cause man what i saw lst night i never saw before in the US so you be well abram and i wish you and youre family protection
Same to you
God Bless You Sir. You are a treasure.
thanks for the video. Another point to consider is taking into account an event when at some point all residents of roman Palestine province were given roman citizenship; and in roman law, the citizenship was transferred through the status of the mother. That is a child would be considered a roman citizen if his/her mother is a roman citizen. this event of spreading roman citizenship on remaining Jewish population strongly correlates with adoption in Jewish law matrilineal descent in Judaism.
I believe Dr. Cohen discusses this as well in his book.
Is there a way to posit a fourth option, which is that "conversion" looked vastly different before and after the revelation of the Torah at Sinai? In other words, "post-revelation conversion" required accepting the _taryag mitzvos,_ while "pre-revelation" would have required something more "organic," but less structured, perhaps like accepting the existence of the One God and/or the Sheva Mitzvos? We know that Moshe Rabbeinu married Tzipora before the Torah was given, which would have put her in the second category.
Dr. Cohen would probably agree.
Thank you for a very good video
Thank you too
Glad to see Dr Henry back🙂 Sir please make a video on Nephilim the Giants and what jewish belief is about their origin...Thank you for your time...
Sorry, not on my research agenda.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD no problem
does the matrilinear system accumulate nephilim genetics that remained in the wives of noah?
@@HenryAbramsonPhD in the Hebrew Bible never says the words Giants that is just miss translation
Hnak is a type of necklace
Would you be able to do a video on Jewish prospective and history relating to conversation?
Not really my specialization.
You can't become Jewish after being born a gentile but only change a religion.
Interesting video Dr. Abramson, I find this topic very interesting because I’ve got a Jewish mother and non Jewish father.
Glad you found it useful!
Then u r an Gentile.
@@nukapuka you are correct. This law made by man has no authority from God. The Torah or word of God only talks about the father's lineage, and you can know by example from all the patriarchs, leaders, and kings that it's from the father.
If your mother is Jewish you are a member of the Jewish people and Jewish religion.
Genesis 17:7
God clearly tells Abraham and all who reads this verse in God's word that Abraham seed comes from Abraham / man. God said it twice, so Jewish leaders could understand if they go by God's word, but they rather listen to man instead, like this law made by man.
Hi Dr. Abramson, do you happen to have a lecture on Karaite Jews? It’s my understanding that they recognize patrimonial descent. Is this correct? Would love to know more about the history of Karaites.
Yes, please poke around and you'll find it. Check on Sa'adia Gaon as well.
It's correct that this Jewish sect does believe in patriarchal lineage. At least one thing, these Jewish people believe that comes from God. Genesis 17 : 7 is all you need to know this, if only that they believe in the Jewish Messiah, which is the only way to God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
@@kevin-oe3ti There’s nothing written about a Jewish messiah in Torah. YHWH is jealous and He won’t share his glory with a messiah. There is no greater prophet than Moses. It is a sin to add or take away from Torah. This idea of needing a messiah came about much later. Many put their hope in “the” messiah, but they should focus on circumcising their heart to obey the Torah.
@@AbrahamsBridges There is only one God, but God is three persons the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. God made man in His likeness. Man is three parts too. Man has a body, soul, and spirit. Even satan knows this truth. In the 7 year great tribulation or new world order, satan imitates God by creating his own three persons, which satan the father, antichrist the son, and false prophet the holy spirit. Jews and gentiles, who believe in the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, or Son of God are not worshipping more than one God. Both Jew and gentile are born again or circumcision of the heart. There will be neither Jewish or gentile but a new creation.
You dont have wisdom
from God, so you can't understand how this is possible, even satan being evil understands this, because he wants to be god.
Yes, God is a jealous God. Israel is the wife of God. Israel was exiled from their land because they worship false gods, but God restored Israel so the Jewish people will repent. There are Jewish people coming to Christ now and before that are one in Christ with the gentiles. The tribulation is not just about God bringing His judgment and wrath against this world but also bringing His wife back. Unfortunately, God foretold that only 1/3 of Jewish people, who are the wife and chosen people of God will be protected by God to start the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Your totally wrong about the Jewish Messiah or Jesus Christ not being mention in the Torah or the Holy scriptures.
First Jesus Christ did say this in John 5:46 (niv). If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about Me.
This law that mainline Jewish people believe that jewishness comes from the mother is a perfect example of not believing God's word and Moses. Genesis 17:7 makes it crystal clear that Abraham seed comes from Abraham/man.
Here are few examples:
Genesis 22:8
When God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son (Isaac ), Abraham obeyed and believed that God can raise Isaac from the dead. Abraham knew that many descendants come from him, so Isaac had to live. Abraham responds to Isaac by saying " God himself will provide the lamb" Abraham knew that the Lamb of God or Jewish Messiah will come from God.
This was prophetic reenactment.
God asked Abraham to play the part of God in the sacrifice of His own Son. This passage points to Jesus Christ coming in the future to atone for our sins on the cross.
Leviticus 17:11 (nkjv) points to Christ or the Jewish Messiah. Only perfect and unblemish blood can cover the sins of the world. Animals cannot atone for sins, but it represented the future coming of the Lamb of God. Old testament Jewish people that believe in the lamb of God were credited to righteousness and we're saved.
Exodus 12
It's also prophetic. When Hebrew people in Egypt put the blood around the door commanded by God, so death will pass. ThIs represented the Lamb of God or Jewish Messiah blood covering our sins on the cross so the second death that leads to damnation passes, so all who believe we're saved. This points to Christ.
In Genesis 17, God's saids about Abraham and Sarah that many nations will come from them.
This points to the Jewish Messiah too. He is the only One that can fulfill this. Without Christ, then Abraham will be the father of Israel and Arab countries only. This word of God is talking about all gentiles in the body of Christ are adopted into Abraham seed. The Jewish Messiah or Christ is the head and the husband, and the body of Christ is the wife. This is the only way possible to fulfill this prophecy or word of God of many nations, because gentile believers are all over the world
Jewish believers are already in Abraham seed. I heard that Jewish leaders excuse is that Abraham slept with many women to form all these nations. First of all, Abraham was almost 100 years old when God told him this, which makes it impossible. Secondly, this was future prophecy, and there's no mention of Abraham having sex with no other women, besides his wife and Egyptian woman.in the Torah, besides how do you explain Sarah, who was baren. God was the one, who made it possible for Isaac to be born. There is no other way to explain this passage, unless the Jewish leaders believe in the Messiah.
The passages of the Jewish Messiah or Jesus Christ always talks about the future coming of the Lamb of God in the Torah, Hebrew scriptures, or Old testament. Of course, your not gong to see the name of Jesus Christ in writings, because what is hidden is revealed in the New testament., but many Jewish people believe in the Messiah from the teachings of Moses. Every generation, there's a remnant of Jews that are the true wife and chosen people of God, even if all Jewish people are Abraham seed.
Because of harden hearts, many Jewish people will deny the Jewish Messiah no matter if the truth is right in front of their faces.
Rabbi Abramson, I have it on both my Matrilineal and Patrilineal line. Even though no one told me, I always knew. I don't know how I knew, but I knew. My Dad's little sister's named is Lamed. It's part of the Hebrew alphabet. We just didn't talk about it the way people do now. We went to church and listened to our parents. I got great grades, was at the top of my classes and was an unmarried virgin when I went to college. Despite the fact that I was offered a full scholarship to Harvard, along with some other schools, I was redirected to go to FAMU at the last minute. My teachers actually wanted me to graduate as Salutitorian at 16 and go to college then, but I waited until I was 17, where I graduated Valedictorian. I don't have HIV or AIDS, nor do my sons, no STI'S or STD'S, no HPV or Herpes, no Cancer and are not Diabetic, our hearts seen to be doing okay also. I had both of my sons circumcised at birth. Thank you for visiting my page. Good day.
Can you help me understand your statement? What is it that you have on both sides? What is the significance of the listed diseases?
Genetic data is very relevant to this question as well. For Ashkenazim, paternal lineages have more of a Middle Eastern genetic origin then maternal lineages which have a large European genetic component.
William Stone
Yes, it is very clear from DNA evidence that non-Jewish women in the Roman Empire were marrying Jewish men and that these families were becoming part of the Jewish community.
@@RCSVirginia This may be true, but DNA cannot indicate that the wife was properly converted.
@@sandergoldberg4508 Yes, but Rabbinical Jews can't have this both ways. If we won't give these women the benefit of doubt that they were properly converted according to the standards of the respective Jewish communities that they effectively joined in those periods, Rabbinical Jews might as well write off all Ashkenazim as gentile.
@@BonusHole Christian, heathen, butt out - this is none of your business. Go worry about a cause much closer to your religious home, such as the Vatican. Observing the Torah (Law) doesn't suffice for one to be considered Jewish and it's far from conversion. Our standards are not those of your pagan Christinsanity.
Now please don't kid yourself. You believe that all your sins have been "forgiven" because you believe that Jesus Christ "the savior" died for, and instead of you!
But you are in real trouble! Not only are you still sin-laden, you have added a new, terrible sin to the old batch! You are guilty of idolatry for worshiping a false "savior" and god. The word of YHWH plainly states that He (YHWH) alone is Savior; (Isaiah 43:11). He alone can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25). He alone is the True Deity (Isaiah 43:10)!!
Moreover, you cannot "believe away" sin! Magic plays absolutely no role in the system of sin and atonement established by YHWH, the sole Creator of this universe and pure God of Israel. Atonement by "faith" is not part of YHWH's setup. The only way a sinner can get his sins forgiven is by repenting and; by doing and fulfilling what YHWH wants him to do!! YHWH says: "Again, when I say to the wicked, you shall surely die; if he turn from his sin (repents) and do that which lawful and right ("good works")... he shall surely live, he shall NOT die!! NONE of his sins which he had committed shall be remembered against him! He has done that which is lawful and right! He shall surely LIVE!" (Ezekiel 33:14-16).
Ezekiel was a prophet of YHWH. He wasn't a Christian preacher!
In Moses' day, the repentant sinner usually (NOT ALWAYS) offered an animal sacrifice to symbolize his "giving" and YHWH's "accepting".
Later prophets elaborated on how animal sacrifices are worthless without obedience:
"Behold, to OBEY is BETTER than sacrifice!" (1 Samuel 15:22). "Do I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?" (Psalms 50:13).
"By practicing mercy and truth is sin atoned for!" (Proverbs 16:6).
HOW can you come to YHWH? YHWH provides the answer: "Return, O Israel, to YHWH your almighty, for you have stumbled in your iniquity! Take with you WORDS and return to YHWH! (WHAT words?) Say to Him: forgive all iniquity and accept GOODNESS (good works). Thus, will we offer, INSTEAD of bullocks (blood) the offerings of our LIPS!" (Hosea 14:2-3).
According to the word of YHWH, NO ONE can die for you! If you don't believe me, read Exodus 33:31-33; Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:3-4. But YHWH's demands can be met by you, if only you will know the truth. You can come to YHWH on your own! Read YHWH's word! "With what offering can I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the Mighty One on high? Should I come to him with burnt offerings, with year-old calves? Will YHWH be pleased by thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Should I give my first-born for my transgression (human sacrifice, like the crucifixion!), the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? It has been told you, O man, what is good, and what YHWH (not religious doctrine but YHWH!) requires of you: ONLY to DO what is just (YHWH's COMMANDMENTS) and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your Almighty!" (Micah 6:6-8).
Hallelu-Yahh, praise YHWH! His Salvation is open to all! No believing in fairy-stories, no bloody crucifixions! No "divine suicide" on a Roman Cross! Plain and simple is the Way of YHWH! Will you take Him at His Word today?
Circumcise your heart, loosen your stiff neck and remove the JC scales from your eyes.
Read at leisure with an open mind through faithstrengthened.karaitejudaism.org/FS_TOC.html
@@BonusHole Stop your nonsense, God chose a People with History sons of their forefathers, a bloodline for people and prisethood, the Jewish people.
Great video and great beard. Very stylish...
Glad you like it!
@@HenryAbramsonPhD Slicha. Dis it never occur to anyone that in patriarchichal times the woman JOINED the family of her husband entering his household and thus FOLLOWING HER HUSBAND'S FAMILY'S LAW much like we have the wife go after the minchag of her husband today. THUS it was not even mentioned, since the child WILL NOT BE TURNED AWAY FROM G-D. The issue does not arise.
P.S. HOW ABOUT THE VERSE WHERE THE SON OF AN ISRAELITE WOMAN AND AN EGYPTIAN IS CALLED THE SON OF AN EGYPTIAN AND IS NOT REFERRED TO AS BEN ISRAEL.
ZZ Top
That was very interesting
Thanks!
I wish you would have emphasized that this matter is one of the factors that turned reformism among Jews into a completely new religion. The cord was cut many times so now reformism is akin to Christianity . It was derived from and influenced by Judaism. The same is true for all of the modern groups invented by Ashkenazi Jewry.
Another 💣 "BOMB" dropped by Dr. Abramson.......I Love it!!!!
Yikes
An Orthodox Jew who demonstrates immense historical honesty. That's what I *love* about Dr. Abramson, thanks so much! I'd also like to add that to this day, the conversion process for men is typically much more difficult than it is for women, yes? Since the former have more mitzvot to observe.
Thanks for the kind words. Hard for me to quantify the relative experience of conversion for men and women.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD Makes sense. Also, wasn't Moses not even allowed into the Holy Land ultimately? Clearly even in spite of his enormous stature, he was far from perfect.
@@fiddlerontheroof4099 why don’t you learn from the paradox instead of jump to conclusions. There’s endless commentary that will show you the beauty of the Torah. It’s the most important thing you can do for yourself
@@fiddlerontheroof4099 Moses wasn't able to enter the holy land, because he disobey God by hitting the rock, instead of commanding the rock to bring forth water by God's power. If Moses commanded the rock to bring forth water in the Lord's name, then he is bringing glory, praise, and worship to the Lord God Almighty. God allowed Moses to see the land that God promise to Abraham descendants from far off.
Matrilineal descent is of late invention and could not possibly have been honored until the tribes of Israel existed.
Ruth the Moabite is an interesting example, as her offspring would be cursed for 10 generations according to prohibitions against marrying Moabites.
What about Numbers 36:6-10 commanding inbreeding within the tribes in order to not cross-contaminate tribal inheritance?
Has it occurred to anyone that Deuteronomy 7 was a recommendation, not a basis for excluding anyone from being Jewish...?There is no punishment prescribed for marrying a non-Jew so why would the clergy impose one?
I found the video useful!
The ban on intermarriage came from Ezra, and it was about surviving as a people in diaspora (making sure someone continues our traditions). There's nothing in Judaism which "always was". We mythologise whatever Judaism currently is, what it has become, and cast this back onto history.
(The oral tradition very clearly evolved before it was written down, and our culture has always branched out into different camps. Rabbinic Judaism is not all we've ever had.)
Incorrect. It’s Israelite law from the time of Moses has found in the Torah Deuteronomy 7:3/4 don’t marry your daughter to Gentile son and don’t take gentile daughters for your son because he will remove your son from worshiping me to worshiping idols.
Pay attention closely to the words.
God Almighty very smart every word every letter counts don’t come to your conclusions of your week understanding of the text
@@yosefgreen3130 Yes. This was the reason. Some people who agree and twist thos very verse for a racist agenda but it was because of religion and being equally yoked.
@@brittanyhayes1043 Israelite are a culture not a religion
Why the Mishnah Kiddushin 3:12 wasn't used to clarify more in depth?
Thank you for the explanation. As a Gentile, I find your lectures always enlightening!
Is there another lecture explaining the only exception to the "matrilineal" rule which I know of? Specifically, I am referring to the "patrilenial" requirement for the preistly group of "Cohanim". It is my understanding that the Cohanim are required to be patrilinally descended from the tribe of Levi through Aaron.
Thank you.
Or they can be adopted like samuel was
Yeah Cohen goes through father but only if he marries a Jewish virgin. Is he marries someone widowed or divorced, his children can’t be Cohen.
@@Sherbakova2009 Many thanks! "Zay Gesunt." (Please forgive my English adaptation of "be well.")
My Great, Great, Great Father was 100% Jewish. But the next generation converted to Catholicism. So, I was raised Catholic. Rabbi, what is my situation with relation to the Jewish in the present?
Who’s your favorite Torah scholar @Henry Abramson? My is the Rambam
Good choice
Very interesting video, and something that is very relevant today with the actions of the Ultra-orthodox in Israel.
I do have a question off this topic, which I don't see covered in your other videos. It looks to me that in the early periods, at least up to the Babylonian period, that Jews did recognize that there were other Gods, not just the God of Israel. This would have been common in that era and in that tribal structure, where people would recognize the existence of multiple Gods, but the family may only worship one of those Gods.
So my question is, what is the history of Jewish monotheism, and the rejection of multiple Gods.
Polytheism was the norm at that time. Moses transmit a deeper knowledge of what's happening in Deuteronomy: "YKVK is Haelokim, there is no more but His soleness". "Elokim" means God and it seems to be a plural word, but it's almost always conjugated in singular. It's often use when we're talking about God as pure Power. "Haelokim" means The God, still with that plural suffix and still conjugated in singular, and suggest unity in the action of God, despite apparent taking part with this or that people. YKVK is the name of the God of Israel, it's often used when God gets personal with Israel, for example when He forgives.
So what Moses is trying to explain to the ancient Hebrews is that YKVK includes and supersedes the gods of other nations, their apparent differences is an illusion. At some point people stopped worshipping other gods, so we forgot how present those gods were in the life of people, and thus we took their mention in the bible as a sign of their existence, when in fact it's more of an aknowledgement of ancient people's belief.
Would you please answer a question about the expulsion of Jews from England in 1290. How complete was the expulsion, because Shakespeare in wrote about Jews in the Merchant of Venice. How would he have even met Jews? Jews didn’t return until Cromwell’s time.
Good, relevant material in a relatively short video, Dr. Abramson! Always thoroughly enjoy all your videos! :)
Regarding the NT, I think Paul (in Acts 16:3) did the bris on the Jewish fellow Timothy (of who it was known by "all" the Jews of that particular region that he did have a Greek/non-jewish father), because obviously his mother was Jewish, so he was obligated to have this done. And apparently it right away shows an example that this Timothy's non-jewish father didn't care about a bris milah, so Paul still had to do it with him at a much later stage in life than the regular 8th day. So this piece might have been included to show that the matrilineal principle was the accepted way and with good reason too. It's at least interesting to me. Not sure if among the hundreds of comments this was already treated, but I am, I admit it, too lazy too go through all of them. ;-) Hashem bless you and your work!
We don't pay any attention to the xtian's so called NT.
thanks for the lecture henry about jews marrying foriengners ,i havent been feeling so well the last few days probaly due to the covid retrictions in barbados and the stress that can put on your mind,you did a good job explaining the original language in deuteronomy 7,showing how different hebrew is from english,some people say that the wonderful story of the book of ruth ,was written during the post exile period to defend against ezras prohibtion on marrying foreighn wives,due to the fact that ruth stayed with naiomi,no matter what she being a moabites,and the story reveals she being the great grandmother of king david,esther the heroine of the jews married ahasurais of persia/xereses,and saved her people from genocide,i would like to hear your lecture on women of the bible,i wonder who saul and davids mothers where we dont know cause they identify david as ben jessie saul ben kish,i know they found evidence of davids existence in 1993 tel dan stella anyhow i wish you the best and stay safe
Hope you have a speedy recovery
Josephus/Paul/Saul? probably was related to Herod in some way, possibly Saulus the Younger? If that's the case, he would have been looking for any reason to present himself as a Jew to make himself look more valid in the eyes of the Romans and the priests at the temple, hence no emphasis of the matriarchal lines. Great work as always!
Glad you found the video useful! Not aware of any relationship, sorry.
I like this guy.
Me too.
Dr. Abramson...I read recently as I was learning (can't remember the source, unfortunately)...that Yosef's wife, Osnat, was actually Dina's daughter from her rape of Shchem...so she was, in fact, a Jewess from a Jewess mother. Can't figure out how Osnot got to be raised by Potipher and his wife in Egypt. This may be a midrash. Have you ever read this?
Well known Medrash, presumably based on the counting in the beginning of Exodus. According to it, she was given a sort of a locket with her identity and sent down to egypt.
@@zvi303 After I commented above, a rabbi wrote in below and confirmed what I said but greatly expanded on the subject.
If it's not in the Torah, word of God, and the law of God, then it's not true. I'm sorry to tell you this but Abraham seed, sinful nature, being a gentile is carry in the gene of man from God.
HaShem Created man to have free will. The only way we can have free will is to have to choose right from wrong, good from evil. Therefore, there is the yetzer hara/bad inclination or the sahtan and the yetzer tov/good inclination. Of course, man sins…HaShem Created us and He Is Well Aware of this…that is why He Allows us and WANTS us to repent…sincerely…when we do sin.
First:
Thank you to Dr. Abramson for another fascinating lecture.
Related question:
Has anyone else compared their DNA against a 10,000 year old database, such as available on GEDmatch?
With a 100% Ashkenazi Jewish mother, and non-Jewish father, mostly Iberian,
42% of my DNA matched Natufian when compared against data from 10K years ago.
Natufian was the pre-historic/pre-written records culture of the Levant.
I've seen time ranges from 15,000 to 10,000 years ago.
Curious if present European groups such as English, French, etc, also have Natufian DNA when compared against a 10,000 old data base.
My DNA compared against present data:
52% Ashkenazi
My father has a Convervso somewhere in the past from Spain or Portugal, as he has 2% Jewish DNA.
Glad you found the video useful!
Have you done your dad's line back to the 1400s or 1500s? Where in Iberia is he from? I am doing Portuguese genealogy from Madeira Island.
@@sr2291
I've traced back to 1590 in Spain, but it's not reliable.
After great grandparents, I have no info, but Ancestry gives "suggestions" for one's family tree.
Nothing traced family tree to Portugal, sorry...even with Ancestry suggestions.
Odd, because my father's updated 2022 DNA is 28% Portugal (I'm 9%), 31% Spain, and 7% Basque,
with a small but wide mix from other European countries.
On the Jewish side
with multiple spellings of the names of Jews in Poland, it's real detective work
...but, I have traced to some of my 3rd great grandparents
Dear Dr. Abramson! I enjoyed your informative enlightening discussion. On one point, I beg to respectably differ with your historical account. Joseph's wife was not an Egyptian. Indeed, she was Joseph's cousin, being Dina's daughter, resulting from the rape that Dina suffered at the hands of Shechem's son. In fact, she was Yaakov's granddaughter. Yaakov had sent her down to Egypt, having put an amulet around her neck, with God's name included in it among other Hebrew scriptural writings, so that she would always be associated with the house of Yaakov's family. As to why Yaakov would send her down to such a defiled immoral land has its own discussion. The bottom line is that she was not a gentile girl, but from Joseph's own family. Potophar adopted and reared her as his own. The brothers of Joseph did marry girls from outside their household because there were not as yet, Hebrew women around. Though there is a medrash that states that each brother was born with a twin sister and that the other brother would marry his half sister because before the Torah was given, you were permitted to marry a half sister, but not a full sister. We can see this, when Avimelech caught Yitzchock cohabiting with Rivka and accusing him of lying to him that Rivka was his sister. The medrash opines that it meant a full sister, because that was taboo From the time of the flood. As for Moshe, indeed Zimri accused him of that very sin, when mocking Moshe by saying, " who permitted the daughter of Yisro to you? But as we can see later on that Yisro's whole family, he included converted. Indeed Moshe's two sons were reared by him. The medrash says that he already gave up idolotry by the time Moshe left his household, having been the chief priest of Midian. So, before the Torah was given, all Tzipora had to do was to state that she believes in the one God of Israel. There were no formal Jewish, Laws, statutes or commandments yet handed down to the people. They all became gerim at Har Sinai. Even Rochov, who later married Yehoshua from whom Yechezkel emanated from had to be megayer according to the medrash. As far as Solomon is concerned, the Tanach emphatically states in Kings that Hashem was furious with Shlomo for taking foreign women and he indeed was held accountable later on. As far as his children's status as Jews is concerned, text does state that the women were megayer, even though later on we see that they brought their paganism into the holy temple. At the time of their conversion, though for ulterior motives, it was considered legitimate and their children were reared in the Jewish way. Rabbi Yaakov Feller
Hello Rabbi Feller: I don't think we are in disagreement--as I mentioned in the video, one of the ways to understand the strange omission of descriptions of conversions in the text (with Joseph's wife and others) is to rely on Midrash, as you have.
@davidcohen
Is there not a more pragmatic issue here in that there is far more certainty of who the mother of the child is, than who the father is. Much like the Jewish dietary laws which are eminently sensible for the eras before refrigeration, and also that pork and shellfish are always risky foods to eat.
What are the Paul and Philo examples?
Too detailed for a brief video. Have a look at Dr. Cohen's book.
Is there a Richard Katz that's a hebrew Linguistic professor at Tel Aviv University? It's a group claiming there is
I don't know. Try google?
He is a history teacher there.
www.encyclopedia.com/arts/educational-magazines/katz-david-s-1953
Ok
In the example - perhaps the reason there is no mention of the son of the non-Jewish mother is because in those times there was no question that men were the masters of their household. There would be no question that the religious practices of the household would be how the father dictated them, and therefore with a Jewish father there was not the threat of a child being turned from worshiping G-d as there would be in the example of the child with the non-Jewish father.
How does Hebrew handle "person" (no sex specified)? Latin-derived languages presume the masculine gender in such cases.
Point being that they could have used a masculine word to mean _any_ person, male or female.
From Abraham to Moses through entire Torah period it was patriarchal. Many married non -Jewish women. As you pointed out the earliest note is post Torah and found in Talmud which were man made Rabbinical interpretations and not divine from G-d
After the giving of the Tora, marrying a non-Jewish women🚷 without conversion was forbidden. You see that in the Book of Ezra that Jewish men had married non-Jewish women, and Ezra arranged a mass divorce, and sent the children with their mothers.
fokana1: From Avraham, already he knew not to marry his son to Cananites, then Yaacov had to go back to Haran to choose a wife from his mother's relatives.
The 3 forefathers were chosen the legacy of Monotheism with strict rules who to marry even without the giving of the TORAH. Those 3 couples also understood their mission.
As With Moses, Tzipora his wife was a convert and therefore considered full pledge JEW. She also knew her mission being married to a great prophet and leader of the Jewish nation.
As he also mentioned: The conversion for women was very easy compared to men. Men have to keep much more laws and get circumcised, women don't. In fact in the old world women took over the religion of their husband. So a non-jewish woman got jewish though engagement. So there was no problem to marry "non-jewish" women. But this rule changed in the mishnaic era because of changes in the marital and conversion laws. So they seperated conversion from marriage so that a woman has to go through a conversion process and after it she can get engaged with a jew.
So technically yes, the law was always in power AND yes, there was a change in the mishnaic era, but not in belonging to judaism but in marriage and conversion processes.
@@pardes7342 Interesting points. I think Abraham and marrying within the family was common cultural thing in many cultures for thousands of years and even today in some cultures. As for Moses wife, she rightly took on all Jewish customs once marrying Moses but there was no official conversion process at the time. My simple marrying Moses and raising kids in tradition she became "Jewish". That's all it seemed G-d required was the heart to follow him and not any external man made requirements
@@benavraham4397 yes, that event happened but it wasn't "prescribed" by G-d. My assumption was they wanted to keep Israel pure after years of mixing. But in other Torah examples any spouse who followed accepted G-d and followed Jewish traditions seemed to satisfy requirements
How it it possible to separate Halacha and it’s process from thus subject at all!!!!????
Does Messianic expectation play into matrilineal doctrine?
Not aware of that.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD The "Orthodox" Rabbinical position is that the Messiah would be of the loins of King David (patrilineal descent) but also have a Halachically Jewish mother. Therefore, the Messiah would have a matrilineal connection to Judaism as well as patrilineal descent from King David.
Fascinating video! I've long wanted to see a good discussion of this question! For what it's worth, a few thoughts:
1) The passages from Deuteronomy and Ezra are subject to other interpretations (your grandson is still your grandson regardless of whether he's identified as a Jew or not, the inclusive use of "he" and "son" can implicitly cover the case of non-Israelite daughters turning children to other gods, and non-Jewish men probably did not migrate back to Judea just to please their Jewish wives, which is why they're absent from Ezra),
2) The patriarchal nature of Israelite society and the fact that ALL of the genealogies in the Hebrew Bible are reckoned patrilineally strongly argues that this was the dominant principle of ethnic identity in the period (with the stipulation that a male child had to be circumcised to belong to the people).
3) The juxtaposition of our patrilineal 1st century BCE/CE sources (Philo, Josephus, Paul) with a clear matrilineal principle in the Mishnah suggests a likely co-existence of the two traditions, the latter of which became firmly established in rabbinic Judaism. It would be fascinating to know more about how the two traditions intertwined.
4) The question may not have been as sharply posed in the ancient world as it came to be by the time of the Mishnah. It would be a human tendency for every parent or grandparent to want to see their descendants identified as fellow Israelites/Jews, and so a default position may have been "If you're descended from me, you belong to my group, unless something unusual takes place," regardless of the gender of the child or parent (with the male parent's view normally prevailing in cases of conflict, as with Timothy's father in Acts). Only when the community was under threat through widespread intermarriage would the question become acute, and the sages favored by Judah ha-Nasi came down on the matrilineal side.
5) Both the patrilineal and matrilineal traditions have a rationale in evolutionary psychology. Since males have historically been dominant in society, inclusion in the father's group would tend to favor survival and success (leading to the patrilineal principle). On the other hand, one can be sure who a child's mother is in a way one can't always be sure of who its father is, providing a rationale for the matrilineal principle.
Thanks again for a fascinating discussion!
Glad you found the video useful!
Other than the mention of Timothy, valid points; we deserve a better answer
The conversions of 2-3000 years ago I don’t believe they were as strict as today. I converted 15 years ago, and it’s a lengthy process people. My guess is then it was more like that of Islam. Maybe not it’s not stated in the Tanakh.
Also the “seed of Abraham” is prophetic I think that the Y chromosome remains relatively unchanged thru millennia.
Rabbinic Judaism was born as antithesis to Old and New Testament Judaism. This is one of the consequence/proof of it, throughout the Tanakh and New Testament children’s lineage was always based on father’s lineage and never, even once, on mother.
😂 lol @"New Testament Judaism". JC\Yeshu`a (or whichever other name you prefer to call him by) would never approve of a solid majority of the NT's content. But I realize that Christians, Messianic "Jews", Hebrew Roots people or whatever other label JC followers opt to use for themselves need such a delusion to cope better.
Yes I've always been curious about that being that being that Zoroastrianism is the other way around and sometimes when no one can see or hear me I start wimpering and sniveling because my parents are not Jewish 😓 All eight of my great grandparents are Roman Catholic Italians.
Sorry about that.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD Well whether or not you realize it hearing that from someone like you means a whole lot more than you might think and it makes me want to do better, help people, and not have a bad attitude.
@Alison Friedson Well it didn't all happen at once it just slowly came over the course of about 8 years. And for the same reason why a lot of other people decide to convert to such, because it makes sense.
Oh Sefaria! They have multiple translations but I totally understand the issue with the primary one's translations. Now you know since I am a Jew I am going to argue with the interpretation of the translation you gave. Lol
The masculine version is used when the gender is unknown or when it concerns both genders. So the use of את would be understood as "they" and not just "he" in the quoted section. The same goes with children. So the verse is meant to apply to both sexes.
Ezra was just a priest and not a prophet so his book is understood to be considered more of a historical account, not Law or Prophecy. The schism he introduced also divided the house of Israel leading to a Civil War and the dissolution of Israel. Ezra would have lived in the mid-3200s (late 3rd century BCE by the Christian Calendar) and Hellenist took control in the late-3200s (early 4th century BCE by the Christian Calendar) it was believed by some mainly because Ezra drove the nation into that. This is why yhe Book of Ezra was initially combined with Nehemiah until the early 4800s (late 1700s CE by the Christian Calendar). The reason they were initially combined was because what Ezra dictated was to be remembered but not to be imposed so extremely due to it resulting in birth of Hellenistic "Judaism".
The Jews outside the Ashkenaz in the Pale decided to split the book of Ezra off from Nehemiah and asked the Jewish publishers in Ashkenaz (Austria specifically) to print to division. The publishers in the Ashkenaz refused. This I believe eventually gave way to the Reformers in the Ashkenaz who mistook this to allow for mixed marriages but the initial reasoning and argument was that both parents should be Jewish or converted to Judaism thus Jewishness was determined by both paternal and maternal lines instead of just maternal or just paternal.
I had thought the maternal relationship was more of a modern and Rabbinical interpretation as for example Baal Shem Tov was born to a gentile non-converted mother who orphand him resulting in his being adopted by the Jewish community.
Anyway I recall reading this in a Jewish history book my Uncle has and it was mentioned in passing in some of the letters my cousins in Israel have from the family in the Pale. The letters are all in Yiddish and we've been slowly translating them. If I can find the one that mentioned it I'll scan it over to you in an email but there are several of them. The letters date as far back as 5640 (1880CE by the Christian Calendar) and span unto 5692 (1932CE by the Christian Calendar). They were written from our family in the area of Belarus to our family in Israel who migrated to resurrect Israel with the Zionist. They document part of my families migration to Israel. If you know anyone willing to help us translate the letters that would be awesome! My cousins don't speak Yiddish at all and my Yiddish is really horrible. So progress has been slow.
I got really into this question when I kept meeting women while dating who claimed to be Jews because their mother's were but then practiced Atheism or another religious ideology. I still haven't found a Jewish women for me. For me I am more concerned with just finding one who loves me and I put my faith in G-D, believing that HaShem will either convert the one who loves me or bring me one who is actually Jewish, but I know a lot of Jewish men who only care that she is Jewish and not whether or not she loves them. Then they get divorced etc. So I focus on love. I mean "love" is literally written in Jerusalem. (If you've been there then you know what I mean.. if I recall correctly the sign is outside Jaffa Gate) So that is my deal, my knowledge on the subject, and my single man woes.
Good video though! We could discuss this for hours no doubt. Happy Shavout!
Focus on love and not on the person you are marrying and your life will be dreck.
@@michaelmelamed9103 I understand that you do not have any kindness in your soul for Ruth nor Rachel who sat on her father's idols whom she had taken with her as well? What of the converted daughters of Midianites or those former exiles of Babylonian or the Khazarians or countless more?
There is no fault in blood as there is but one G-D from whom we are imaged from and thus are all equally human, but a house divided by ideologies is not a house of love because it means that the couple inherently have no faith in the other's thoughts and beliefs. As such it is my belief that a person should seek love because love is inherently built on shared faith whether the are coming to the same faith that person has or are already steadfast believers of it. Again: Ruth, Zipporah, Rachel, and if you want to get right down to it Sara I mean Sarah.
We have a saying in Cuba, which I’m not sure I can do a good job translating. It says “The sons of my daughter, my grandchildren they are, the sons of my son, doubtful they’ll be.
Interesting
Yudith Yu Does this refer to the son having children outside of his marriage?
Sephardics from Mexico have a similar teaching / mindset. As a male I find it extremely offensive. One one hand it says we are not faithful to our marriage, and on the other it says we are fools that have an unfaithful wife. This says that only the DNA from mother to daughter can be trusted.
@@padillas4357 Really? I always thought Mexico and most Latin American countries were patriarchs, so it would be the opposite right?
That’s very interesting coming from a Latin American country. I’m Dominican and we’re pretty much the opposite. In the Dominican Republic, most things are passed down through the male line, not the female line.
So, what is the final answer?
What about Roman influence? Roman citizenship was matrilineal, under the principle “pater semper incertus” (the father is always uncertain).
Interesting, I didn't know that.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD This may also have been motivated by a desire to ensure that the offspring of Roman patricians and their ancillae (female slaves) would not (automatically) be citizens
@@ancienbelge Kudos for bringing up the matter of Roman influence. I agree; in fact, Rome demanded the rabbis make the shift to matrilineal in order to align Rabbinism with Roman law. Rabbinism had become the dominant form of Judaism through the cooperation of the Hillelite Pharisees and early Rabbanites with Rome.
At any rate, I doubt Mr. Abramson just forgot to research this angle. It renders the Rabbinic narrative a tad too ridiculous to maintain with a straight face in front of impartial viewers.
I've always found patrilineal descent, usual in most societies, a pain. But exclusively matrilineal descent is equally unfair, and apparently uncalled for in these days of DNA tests. I've heard of an upsetting case where a boy was refused admission to the Jews' Free School in London because he was Jewish on the wrong side. We also hear of such people being called 'mamzers', a derogatory word with connotations like 'bastard' in the original sense.
Dr. Abramson, while this is certainly a late response, (I'm going through a backlog), the video brings to mind that Judaism retains a kind of patrilineal status in terms of tribal identity, in the sense that a son of a Cohen and a non-Cohen is a Cohen, for instance, while the son of the daughter of a Cohen and a non-Cohen is a non-Cohen, but has his father's status of Levi or Israel. Likewise, the Messiah will be the son of David in the male line. So there's still that patrilineal "residue" there, even among people who accept the principle of matrilineal descent.
I doubt that in a patriarchal a woman could transmit her religion or heritage to her children without the consent of her husband. One should expect that in general the children of a woman married outside her religion will follow the husband's religion.
Judaism is determined by the mother tribe by the father
@@yosefgreen3130 This is true now, yes.
@@epicurius1 This was always true from the time of delivering the Torah on Mount Sinai if you understand Deuteronomy 7:3-4
@@yosefgreen3130 That's certainly Rashbi's reading of the passage!
Dr. Abramson, I happen to be a big fan of yours and I reside right near your Ave J campus. I would like to cut to the chase regarding matrilinial descent issues. First of all let's take Joseph out of the equation. Menashe and Ephraim were fully Jewish on both sides of the family. On Joseph's side, Yaakov was their grandfather. On Osnas bas Potifera's side, Yaakov was their great grandfather. Don't forget Dina's ravaging by Chamor(A fitting name), the son of Schechem. Osnas was the daughter of Dina, the product of that rape. As per the Medrash Rabbau, Yaakov put an amulet around her neck to always identify her as from the house of Jacob and because of the family embarrassment sent her down to Egypt to be adopted by Potifar. When it came time to get married, she showed Joseph the contents.of the amulet identifying her as his niece, whom he proceded to marry. The medrash also says that Batya came down to the Nile for a ritual dip in order to join the Jewish people, when she came upon Moshe. She later left with the Jews into the wilderness, married the head of the tribe, Nacshon Ben Aminodov and ascended to heaven alive. As far as Tziporah is concerned, we see that she circumcised her son with a stone. How an infection was avoided from a dirty stone was certainly a miracle. However, we see that she knew the laws of bris Milan and it was accepted by heaven and earth. If she was a Shiksa at that time, it would never have been acceptable, because a shiksa's act within Judaism is null, void and invalid. That, in of and by itself is proof that Moshe was her teacher and had her go thru the proper ritual to enter under the wings of the Shechina. On top of that Aaron urged Moshe to send her back to Midian on the way to Egypt, by declaring, "don't we have enough slaves in Egypt? Do you want to add even more?". That is proof that she was already a Jew, if not, slavery would not apply to her. In fact later on when Zimri cohabited with Cozbi, he argued that who permitted Moshe to marry Tziporah, therefore he can also be intimate with Cozbi basTzur. We know how that ended with Pinchas killing them both. Apparently, Zimri did not know that Tziporah was Megayer. In Melochim, it states that God was furious with Shlomo because he took Gentile women whom he allowed to bring their idols into the temple. The queen of Sheba returned, thing her goyishe offspring with her. That is why we say malchus bais Dovid and not Shlomo, who was cut off at the young age of 52. Even though Moshiach will come out of his one Jewish wife, we only acknowledge Moshiach as Ben Dovid, not Shlomo, because of his lifestyle. Samson too, sinned a great sin. When his father asked him, if ther are not enough Jewish women around, he answered that the Shijsa found favor in his eyes. Therefore, his eyes were gouged out as punishment for that impertinent. In the 5 books of Moses it explicitly states that the son of the Egyotian father and Israelite mother, who was raped by the Egyption, who Moshe later killed, cursed God publicly, because he set up tent at Shevet Dan, where his mother hailed from, but they shooed him away because he had no Shevet, because only his mother was Jewish and the Shevet belongs to a Jewish father. From all the above and many more proofs, we see that matrimonial descent even preceded Matan Torah.
Thanks for the kind words, glad you enjoy the videos. See Dr. Cohen's work for the larger discussion.
Amram married his aunt Yocheved, but that was before Mt. Sinai.
Dear Dr. Abramson, there is one Tzadik in the Torah mentioned in Genesis 14, called Malki-sedeq, who apparently was completely unfazed by this entire lineage discussion: “without father, without mother, without descent...” Hebrews 7:3
Could this “matrilineal” discussion just be a case of the rabbi community pandering to women, because, you know, ravs have to eat, new buildings have to be built, children have to travel, etc, etc?
I found Sefaria to be a troubling source since it’s not a Torah focused or Torah Observant in its focus…it’s like sourcing Wikipedia which is not interested in truth but rather agendas and specific causes.
In another video you described how the majority of Ashkenazi Jews ended up in Central Europe by way of migrating up the Italian peninsula. You mentioned that along the way they must have intermarried with the native Italians due to the genetic evidence. How can any Ashkenazi Jew today know for certain that he/she has a matrilineal line that goes back to the time when the Jews were first brought to the Italian peninsula as slaves? I can see where they could be fairly certain that they can trace their heritage back along a continuous line of religiously Jewish ancestry, but I can't see how they would know for sure that all of their great-great-great-...-great-grandmothers were ethnically Jewish.
If an Ashkenazi Jew finds out he or she belongs to one of the Middle Eastern maternal haplogroups called K1a9, U1b1a1, R0a2m, HV1b2, or H6a1a1a, as described in the book "The Maternal Genetic Lineages of Ashkenazic Jews", that would be a reliable way to ascertain the high likelihood that their maternal line goes all the way back to ancient Israel/Judea. Those didn't come from Italians or any other European for that matter.
Rabbi-I can't see your responses; any suggestions?
Interesting, according to Rashi, Deuteronomy 7 did not refer to the grandchild born to the non-jew daughter-in-law because according to Talmud that child is not a Jew. But isn't Deuteronomy the source scripture for the matrilineal concept of Talmud, in which case Rashi's logic is circular, B means A because of B? Since women entered the tribe or clan of the man she married, would it not be that the child born to the non-jew daughter-in-law was not mentioned because through the father that child would be reckoned a Jew and raised as a Jew by his Jewish father. Thus, lineage comes through the father?
@Henry Abramson ... My question is, within Christianity the New Testament of Luke 3 gives Jesus' Jewish Lineage from Mary ( Mariam).. that she was a direct descendant of King, through the lineage of Absolam which was cut off from taking the thrown due to his attempt to usurp the thrown. Luke 3 starts out that Jesus was the son of Joseph ( the thought intended was that this was actually the lineage of Mary and Jesus is Joseph's Son by adoption) & Matthew is Jesus's lineage through Joseph.. it gives Jesus's lineage by Joseph and shows that Joseph was a direct descendant of David & would have been able to take the thrown..
However, as you know within Christian theology It is believed that according to the account of Mary's miraculous given in Luke.. that Jesus was not the son of Joseph, But the Son of God ( Hashem)...that Joseph adopted Jesus as his son.... Given that explanation, that I have just presented.. my questions would have to be.. 1. Does Judaism have a concept of adoption? & could this adoption show Jesus as the waited for Messiah in this sense? could he ( Jesus) still be considered the direct descendant of David despite the fact that he was adopted by Joseph?
Considering,both ofJesus paternity were not only both Jewish, but both are direct descendants of King?
My father is Jewish and my mother isn’t. I am in the process of converting through an orthodox beis din. It is hard but reality.
Oh my god. You will be miserable. Good luck!
@@hadasah6309 why will I be miserable?
Elijah Deutsch First of all, you will have no idea how the progress is or in how many years you might finish. You will also have all the Jews you are supposed to integrate with play mind games with you, play tricks, set up silly situations to “test” you over the most ridiculous things. You will be alone. And you will feel the negative tension around you. Very nasty, sarcastic comments, etc. It’s very challenging psychologically. But I can recommend great learning material, videos, books that you might enjoy :)
@@hadasah6309 gotcha. I’ve been in the process since March. I love this stuff. I am alone, and some people may disrespect me, but it’s worth it to be a Jew. If you are a convert, I would encourage you to be proud of who you are, and not let those certain people bother you.
Elijah Deutsch Oh and they will hack your Facebook and possibly hack your smartphone (most easily through not secure wifi network) and live stream your phone screen to their computer. But you will get used to that. Don’t say anything personal or private to anyone because it will become public.
It doesn't make much sense to me that Rashi would think that the text in Deuteronomy 7:4 is specifically referring to grandchildren. The primary prohibition is simply YOU should not intermarry with them" and saying "do not give your daughters or sons to intermarry" seems to me to be simply a further explanation of the idea, that by "You" the author means not only you personally but your family as well. Rashis' commentary appears convoluted to me and ignores a plain reading of the text which is simply saying that the male father figures will exert and undue influence on their children in religious issues. In other words, if you or your daughter or your granddaughter marry a non-jewish man, that man will teach their children to worship other gods. To me it sounds as Rashi is trying to rationalize why the text appears to contradict something that he already holds as religious doctrine.
The saduccees and the samaritans for example didn't hold to matrelinial descent from what I understand and if I remember correctly the Jews from Ethiopia also hold to Patrilinial descent as well. I personally believe that there are certain practices and beliefs of these groups that represent an older and simpler form of Judaism. Contrary to what some people think, judaism has evolved a tremendous amount in the last 2 thousand years, especially because of the expulsion by Rom and was strongly affected by Hellenization.
Rashi there (following the Talmud) is convoluted but logically consistent, I think.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD Even if it is logically consistent, so what? Imagine if you had kids and left a note to your kids saying something like "please don't eat the cookies" and you came back to your house only to find that the cookies were gone. You ask your kids "what happened to the cookies" and they said "well, we read the note that said "don't eat the cookies but we thought that by "the cookies" you were referring to the cookies that you planning on buying next week, not these cookies so we ate these cookies and we won't eat the cookies that you are going to get next week". Ok, fine, it's logically consistent but wouldn't you say "no, I meant these cookies and if I wanted to say next weeks cookies I would have made that obvious. The plain meaning of the text was obvious but you ignored the plain meaning and came up with a convoluted interpretation of the text that suited what you wanted".
@@joachimwest3217 It's a tradition that arose to meet specific needs of people under bad circumstances at the time which is down to be so in that it's found nowhere else among those who weren't under those specific circumstances, if addressed honestly, would become "a painful topic for many of them"--better to let it be so for those they impact with their tradition rather than to give weight to the plain words of God. ;)
And yes, that's the simple story of it all. And sad too as it causes not just unnecessary rifts and sectarianism and unequal treatments (forbidden by the Torah among Israelis) but it's the reason for the stereotypes about dishonesty etc and is used as evidence (because it's sound, valid, and demonstrable) not merely by hurt outcasts who are more sincere, but by real antisemites. And those antisemites' rhetorical efforts ARE WINNING, globally and in the lands and nations that have in history notes recently been havens and protectors for Jewish people.
To say Joseph is Jewish ; then you are saying Joseph the son of Jacob is the son of Judah his brother ; and Ephraim and Manasseh are the grandsons of Judah.
Herod's father was the patriarch of the Edumians. So, who is going to stop him from marrying whom he wants? In all likelihood, she did a little conversion, but her behavior was not Jewish.
Dr. Abramson seems to have forgotten some of the facts of Biblical personalities that he raised questions on. Before the Torah was accepted on Mt Sinai, there was no such thing as "Halachic Judaism". The forefathers and their descendants until the giving of the Torah were non-Jews, who individually accepted certain Mitzvos upon themselves (with exception of several Mitzvos that were given before Mt. Sinai), but when deemed necessary, they didn't maintain Mitzva observance (such as Jacob who married 2, sisters, and transferred the first born right from the less beloved wife's son to the more beloved wife's son). Therefore, there was no problem of Moses marrying a Midyanite woman (who happened to be a direct descendant of Abraham in any case). Joseph marrying and Egyptian woman, (whom chazal say was the daughter of Dina from Shchem) When the "Bene Yisrael" came to Mt. Sinai, they ALL converted, so that would include Moses' Midyanite wife and other non-Israelites who joined them. As for Solomon, it is explicit in Nach that he absolutely violated the Torah by marrying 1000 wives, nevertheless, they certainly converted before he married them. We also see that Ruth the Moabite was the paradigm of a convert, and probably, Machlon and Khilyon did violate the Torah by marrying non-Jewish women without them converting.
There isn't a shred of evidence that at any period after Matan Torah, "matrilineal" descent did not ALWAYS define "who is a Jew." Yet at the same time, a Jewish woman who had a child from a Jewish man, the man's "yichus" would define the "Yichus" of the child (Cohane, Levi, Yisrael, or the Tribe affiliation). Likewise, a non-Jewish woman who had a child from a non-Jewish man, the man's "Yichus" would pass down to his children (germane to a Mitzri, Edomi, Moavi, Amoni). A Jewish woman who had a child from a non-Jewish man, the child was 100% Jewish (thus obligated in Mitzvos) but had no "Yichus", with one exception, which was, if his mother was the daughter of a Levite, this status would impact on a son.
I'll remind Dr. Abramson next time I speak with him
This may have been a lttle too 'biblical' for History Lab, but I assure you "Herr Dean" could make your head spin if he was presenting this in a different setting.
Sender zeyv: Tzipporah was a direct descendant to Avraham? Details, please. RE: Ruth, are you saying she did not convert when marrying, but later, when returning with Naomi? "....your God is my God.....etc" .
@@joanroth8594 Tziporah daughter of Jethro the Midyanite. Midyan was a son of Abraham from Ketura. Correct Ruth only converted when she returned with Naomi. If she had converted before, Naomi would never have pleaded with her to return to her own people.
@@senderzeyv4292 Yes, I see in Chayah Sarah....good one...
Why I was raised Roman Catholic and not Jewish. As a Christian / Christ Follower we are told that we have been adopted into God's family. So was I kicked out because of mixed relations and or that Mom was a good Irish Catholic girl or was it just a matter of God not letting go of what belongs to him. It's kind of a theological Dog Chasing its tail question that several of my Friends who are of Mixed Jewish Descent ask each other. As Christians, the answer to that question does not matter to us we just find it curious.
It is indeed a complex situation.
It doesnt because it is not a theological word puzzle. A logic rubrics cube. It allows and demands personal creativity/ choice We also dont have 613 rules or whatever. We believe in a personal God. Also an priest will advise against such marriage arrangements, unless the children become catholic.
Simply take a peek at catholic cathedrals such as aachen or notre dame and compare them to a jewish temple and you will know the contrast in thought process
@@ripvanwinkle1819 I go to an Evangelical Church. I quit going to the RC church when I was 9 years old when I made a decision for Christ. I asked my dad if I could go to a local evangelical church and he said it was either the RC Church or nothing. I took him up on nothing. I joined that local Baptist church when I was 17 and I invited my whole family for my baptism. They were all so happy that I was in fact not a heathen. That being said: I personally don't delineate between old and new testament. I see the New Testament as a continuation of the same story, same faith, same God. That fact that I have a good amount of Ashkenazi lineage is just one more blessing from God. I do try and educate myself on Jewish traditions and culture because it tells me a bit about where a good part of me comes from. When Dad Married my mother that was probably the reason he converted to Catholicism. He's still a Roman Catholic and goes to church several times a week. My mother divorced him when I was 10 and she became a Presbyterian. Presbyterians are more in line with my theology but some of the "Reformers", were not right about everything. Calvin was too in line with Augustus in believing that Christians have replaced Jews as God's chosen people. I don't believe that lie for one bit. You are right Christians have had the 613 religious laws replaced with 3 commands or in effect those 3 commands cover the 613 laws. I do my best to live up to them.
Isn’t Levite an exception to the matrilineal rule?
Tribe is passed by the father, it always was. The child could only be a Levite if the child was considered as a Jew/Israelite.
Abraham seed is pass down by the father. You cannot be a jew if you don't belong to the 12 tribes of Israel.
Also back in ancient times the wife would have to convert to the husbands religion. Not the other way. Also after destruction of the second temple only few jewish men survived, so it was crucial to establish a matrilineal succesion , to ensure the survival of the genus
But if the women would convert as well as the children couldn’t they remain with the husband?
Time for Judaism to recognize EITHER parent!
Really more of an issue to discuss with a Rabbi. I'm just a regular guy.
The seed of Abraham is place in the man from God. The law made by man has no authority. Its in the man's genes not blood or womb. The sinful nature is in man too. Judaism and being jewish is actually two different things, because you can be a secular jewish person. Genesis 17:7, God clearly tells Abraham and all who read this verse that it comes from Abraham/man. God even said it twice in one verse, because He knew that in the future that Jewish leaders were going to make a man made law that goes against God's word. This verse shows that many Jewish people don't listen to God or Moses.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD the fathers drops the seed… NOT the mother … where does it mention that in the Bible ?? I’ll wait
@@infiniteg7852 interesting to see you here. You have been a busy boy. Ok. Deuteronomy chapter 7:3-4 in the Original Hebrew (or a Literal Translation” of the Hebrew, in English) will show in the writing of the 2 verses themselves that it can be no other way but matrilineal
“You shall not intermarry with them. You shall not give your daughter to his son, or take his daughter for your son. FOR HE will turn away your son from following Me”
Taking this literal translation of the Hebrew, if you closely investigate it, in the case of a woman marrying a non Jewish man, it is Still a Jewish Son. But her husband would turn the Son (it calls him your son, ergo, Jewish), from following Me.
But if you take the second situation: Your Son marrying a non Jewish girl, the “he will turn your Son” (the guy marrying the non Jewish girl), away from following me”
So either way it is Matrilineal. The Torah is perfect. There are no extra words or accidents. So there is something in the Torah that could be read in no other way.
And also you have Ezra 10:3. Im not going to go on and on. I believe it. And I gave an answer. Check out “Jews for Judaism, Rabbi Skobac taught me that.
If you don’t believe it than fine. This is what I believe is right.
@@noahroad6577 you should not give your daughter to his son””? Ok? That is not a valid scripture that states that mother determines Whether the child is Jew or not .. not even close .. it’s just simply saying , Do not pass your daughter(woman) to a Non-Jew.. you got nothing , man .. keep searching.. you’ll never find it.. it’s simply saying to not intermarry with them .. you gotta come correct
There’s 1 convert that has a Torah portion Ruth!
Ruth is considered the model for conversion.
That's impossible. ..God cannot lie, because our Lord said it's Abraham's seed and decedent, which means by birth .only.. why don't you Jewish people listen to God or even Moses who wrote Genesis. God never changes His mind, because He's the alpha and Omega.
Funny, my grandfather was biracial. His mother was Jewish and his father an African American. My mother is not Jewish but my DNA says different......🤔
Sephora went trough a conversion? I am doubtful.
I have Sephardic ancestors on my mother's side in the 1500's. Not sure when they converted to the Catholic Church.
To survive or 2 trick.
Even the Talmud omits a key verse in the Torah when it comes to intermarriage. Like Henry Abramson, the Talmud quotes Deut 7:3 " You shall not intermarry with them..." But who is 'them'? That is actually answered in Deut 7:1 "...the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, seven nations..." In other words, we can marry Gentiles, just not members of those tribes who are now extinct.
Hello, Dr. Abramson. Thank you for your lectures.
My wife is jewish. She has never really practiced judaism in any real way, but, her mother and grandparents did. I am eastern orthodox christian. Our son was baptized into the church at three months old. According to Orthodox Judaism, is he still jewish. Thank you.
Hello--you would do well to check with a Rabbi.
@@HenryAbramsonPhD
I have actually tried the rabbi here and no response. I know it is a very sensitive subject and I don't mean to offend anyone, but, I have not been able to find a straight answer. Are you able to recommend any literature on the subject that I can check out.
@@Ancalagon-iu4uq According to God & the Torah, your "son" is 100% Jewish
@@adamyitzhak9907
Thanks, Adam. That is my understanding as well. My wife's family is part of Reform Judaism and I guess for them because he is being raised in another faith that makes him not jewish.
@@adamyitzhak9907 : My husband, was the son of a mother & father who were Orthodox Jews. My husband practiced “Messianic Judaism”. I am descended from Sephardic Jews. Is our son considered to be a Jew?
BEING BORN A JEW , DOES NOT ALWAYS AUTOMATICALLY TAKE ONE TO HEAVEN = BELONGING TO A COMMUNITY DOES NOT EITHER = WE NEED TO BE AS HOLY AS THE PROPHETS AND THE PATRIARCHS - WE NEED TO BE HOLY AND PURE 🕊🕊🇮🇱🇮🇱🕊
What is a Jew ? Ethnicity , Culture , Religion , Conversion ? The answer is Yes 😂!! !!..
Don't forget Asian food.
consistently good and I am not a Jew, merely a Noahite.
Loved the video Henry!
You made no mention of it, however could it be that the actual covenant made between God and Abraham would be the deciding factor?
The pact passed down from Noah to Shem and eventually reached a point where Abraham, a Shemite, had Ishmael with a descendant of Ham (Hagar) and 5 children with a descendant of Yafeh (Keturah)... however only one Shemite (Isaac) with Sarah, who was also a descendant of Shem. It was when Islam confronted Judaism with the claim that the covenant was in fact passed to Ishmael that Judaism understood the value in discussing who inherited the covenant from Abraham. Anyways, this is my own theory based on conjecture which I share with you to hopefully glean wisdom from your reply, if at all possible.
Herr Dean - sounds plausible - topic for student #2
Interesting observation, but Dr. Cohen considerable pre-dates this with the Mishnah, some four centuries before Islam, not to mention earlier possibilities.
@@HenryAbramsonPhDis there validity in my point, that the study of the complete origin story of the covenant between God and man proves that it reached an inflection point through the first mother (sarah)? It was then that the Hebrews became the only Semitic peoples on both sides and not only through Abraham.
Do you think it's okay to be okay for a Jewish woman to be a Lawyer, because I am a member of The Bar Association? My ex husband and I didn't consimmate our marriage on our wedding day or night, but we already had a son. I believe he's also Jewish. His brother, who used to work for IBM (I haven't heard from any of them in a long time's) name is Aaron.
That being said:
9-7-2023 at 7:49 AM, EST USA. I am and have been completely abstinent for over seven years here in Philadelphia PA USA and have not been in New York in well over five almost six years or seven years. I am not The Whore of Babylon and neither are my sons. I am not Jezebel. I have not been to DC since the early 2000's, and didn't mess with anyone there. I haven't been to a club or partied in many years. My eldest son is still a virgin and my youngest son is married and expecting a baby with his wife. It has been four years since Cameron and I moved out of 2939 West Clementine Street as agreed, and over seven years since we moved out of 4605 Wayne Avenue, First Floor as agreed. I hope you all are not the one's who are trying to kill us.
Wow what a comment
In religion, women are easier to control than men. The reason for the switch from the man's seed to the woman's womb appears to be to limit the number of mamzurim that would otherwise lay claim to Jewish heritage.
With Sarah... her son was Jewish but the slave woman's son, from the same father, was kicked to the curb!
As a young person, I was taught the descent through the mother was to protect her and her children from the consequences of rape by conquers. Thinking as an adult now, I wonder at the answer.
Sarah never became Hebrew or Abraham seed. She stayed a gentile, but only Abraham became physically transform by God to become God's chosen people. There was no need to change Sarah, because it was Abraham seed by birth that your a Hebrew. God created two types of people in the human race. Genesis 17:7, God clearly said so. This halal law made by man is adding and subtracting from the Word of God, so those responsible will be under a curse with the plagues of Egypt when in hell and the lake of fire. Being Jewish or Hebrew isn't enough, you must believe and accept the Jewish Messiah or Jesus Christ to have eternal life. Messianic Jewish people are the only true wife of God.
I consider myself a secular Jewish person, I follow the Old Testament aka the Torah.
Father had all his sons circumcised, he had much respect for Jews and their ability to survive and thrive....as much as their impossible situation would allow.
Great to have you with us, Mr. O Donovan.
If you are indeed secular as you say and your mother was not Jewish, then you have to go thru a Kosher conversion, including mikva, a jab in your genitals, if you are already circumcized, otherwise the whole procedure. You also have to commit to observing Shabbos, kosher, family purity and about 250 or so rules and regulations that all Orthodox Jews have committed to uphold which are totally based on biblical laws.
@@jacobfeller7067 clearly his mother is Jewish.
10:16 can't help my skeptical nature here, I'm going to propose that your daughter's son is part of a house who's law is given by a heathen (father is the law giver) and your son's son is going be fine with a heathen wife because your son will impose the correct law. I will admit this argument is weakened by the preceding text that bans giving your son into a mixed marriage. Perhaps I will read some kings tonight since Jezebel and Ahab were an intermarriage right?
You seem to be giving attention to the actual conditions of the time rather than anachronistic post-Roman explications of tradition that must income evidence from silence... Bravo.
In antiquity the mother spent most of the time with the child, that would be a fact. As such the child's morals/ yiddishekeit would be bestowed by the mother. However, whilst all the patriarchs were of the monotheist faith; their wives/concubines were of good stature but not exactly monotheists.The pharisees won the argument since you can always tell the mother of the child but not always the father. This was especially true in the various occupations when rape was rampant. As Henry said its a third rail argument since in the shoah all persons of Jewish blood, be it father or mother or zaidi or bubbe were exterminated by the Nazis and their European helpers, there was no distinction.