We DEBUNKED Medieval Armor MYTHS, Can You STAB Through Breastplate?!
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- čas přidán 6. 12. 2023
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I'm so glad that I could help. This is my way of saying thank you for all the years of great videos. I will watch it when I get home but if Tyranth can cut it in half with one cut from a Katana I will make him Japanese arm armour.
Beautiful work mate. Thank you for your contribution to everyone's understanding of history
Hey ya'll, to help with determining which hits are which...buy a white/black wax pen and circle/label each hit so you will know which is which. Thanks for your videos btw, I am writing a fantasy novel and the weapon/armor/camping (Kramer) stuff has helped a lot.
How the hell did they roll armor with a consistent thickness back then?
@@CardinalBiggles01 Your welcome.
@@johnwolf2829 That is a very good question, but I don't think they did. In around the period this style is based on the steel smelting industry was producing sheet stock. I don't know how good their quality control on thickness would have been, but I don't think they would care too much as customers would just buy what was close and start from there. The smith would then start with a piece of the desired thickness and then stretch it away from the center so that it was thickest in the middle and thinner at the sides. So a breastplate could be thicker in the middle where you are more likely to take a solid hit and thinner on the sides where a blow is more likely to glance off.
Finally a medieval armor video that isn't using crappy aluminum cosplay garbage.
Ain't that for true
@@Mygg_Jeager *Ain't that the truth*
69 likes.
Nice
search for Arrows vs armour 2.
@@Hesselgrenify I believe, Tod is using hardened armor (basically, similar to what the nobility would use) and armor in this video would be much more common
There's nothing more immersion breaking for me in a movie than when someone slashes a sword across someone's breastplate and they kill over. It happens surprisingly alot.
That is true. However, I've bounced a thought in my head, that if you set up in the story to be realistic and someone does things that you shouldn't be able to do, it would make it more awesome.
Take cutting a spear shaft with a sword for example. We know you can't actually do it. However, if I write a story where someone does it, and everyone in the story reacts to it in an appropriate way, like "holy shit, how did he do that?" I think that would enhance the story.
@@RoutaAskel yeah I agree! It's like a sort of internal realism.
The Outpost - in the back plate, out the front plate. Last episode I watched.
I used to dislike it, now I like it, it is a reminder of how dumb movies are.
In movies the toughness of the armor depends on how important the character is. If it's a main character then their armor will withstand armor piercing tank rounds. But for side characters the sword is cutting through their armor like a hot knife through melted butter.
When aiming for the gaps, the problem I see is that the dummy isn't running around _(perhaps with a shield)_ trying to kill you in return. That would make things a hudred times more difficult.
You would never aim for the gaps with an opponent that is armed and on their feet. Manuscripts showed that the time to go for the gaps, is when a knight is knocked on the ground and without his main weapon, you jump on top of him and just beat him to unconscious/death or aim for the big gaps with your dagger, usually you'd go for the gaps in the armpits, neck, or in the gaps of a helmet, even could try ripping their face shield up if you can. Now "aiming for the gaps" between the panels, that is completely useless on body armor, you could do it with some helmets maybe like a face shield, but that's it. It'd be much more effective to go for the gaps where there is no armor than the gaps between armor plates, except for some specific face shields you could maybe do like I said.
@@Kratos-eg7ez
Very good points, I completely agree. I was addressing the potentially misleading outcome from this test. Just because you can do it on Boromir, doesn't mean it can work in real life.
🤺 _-You can't get me now, you pig-dog kniggit!_
@@Kratos-eg7ez Yeah but the Black Knight did it in the totally 110% historically accurate Monty Python and the Holy Grail tho… 😉
@@haravikk *NONE SHALL PASS!!*
@@classifiedveteran9879It
I love that Kramer is just there. Like it's a completely normal thing lmao
It would be nice to see them visit Kramer at some point in the future and help him film more of his videos. This group has a great chemistry.
well, he DID learn to live up in those trees, right? had plenty of time to watch and learn. :)
I just love that there's actually someone named Kramer in the world.
wrg , outx, can outx etc any nmw s perfx
@@andrews.7754 Kramer from Seinfeld was actually based on Kenny Kramer who was Larry David's ex-neighbor so the name wasn't made up, there's actually people named Kramer in the world
I must admit this really showcases how effective was good quality armor... it was incredibly difficult to pierce or slash thru plate armor - not totally impossible, with aimed or lucky hit into weak point - but very difficult indeed
Well, I wouldn't exactly call a Cavalryman charging headlong into a forest of pikes a "lucky shot." More like entirely unlucky. XD
But yeah, it's far easier to puncture a beat plate with a spearhead if it's firmly planted in the ground, and the target is moving towards you with mass and speed.
I'd hazard an educated guess that nearly all breastplates recovered by battlefield archeologists with puncture and piecing damage, was incurred under just such circumstances. Aside from of course, all the obvious instances of projectile/missile damage from longbows and crossbows.
There's quite a lot of documentation and first hand accounts however, implying that riders were not killed by the spears but rather the horses were, and they were either crippled or maimed by the horse as it fell upon them. This was preferable too, as knights were wanted alive for ransome. And in cases where Ransom was not the priority, such as the battle of agincourt, it's very clearly stated that knights were beaten, bludgeoned, and stabbed to death only while flattened on the ground and bogged down by the mud. The misericordiam was a stiletto dagger developed precisely for this purpose, killing blows on a downed opponent.
Knowing all of that, there seems to be validity in Shads findings here.
@@Mygg_JeagerSpearmen didn't actually plant their spears in the ground
@@sakesaurus1706 Pikemen did.
As I said, "a Forrest of pikes."
Even if you hit the weak point, you still are not guaranteed to get throught. Depends on the force but at the same time you stil have the person moving not to mention it is not only the armor you need to get through but also some layers under it (try to stab through fat gambeson), there is also the factor of the steel bending and basically making your weapon stuck between the plates... All in all it is really not good idea to try punch through the plate if you have any other possible and more exposed targer.
But I think the stick test also showed that number superiority is a big thing even to the most armored person. Yes, it didn't hurt much but he was also bracing.
In a fight against several enemies you will get a hit and likely when you are not bracing. That means you will be knocked off your balance and likely to the ground.
And while it might be a lot easier to get up in armor than most people think, it's likely impossible if 3 peasants used to flail grain are doing the same thing to you.
Quantity is a quality of it's own.
Tyrinth doing that one handed "Achilles" jump is worth the price of admission....
By using his legs for counter rotation in mid air he was able to deliver a much more devastating strike. It also looked as cool as it was effective.
I love how thinking back on this channel years on how this channel has evolved from subjective nerd discussions to full high quality production objective nerd science entertainment. It's like random 'nerd bro talk' put into motion.
I do miss those theoretical videos tho. Fantasy Rearmed was Shad's best series be far
daily reminder, matt easton is a punk who sold out and betrayed his friends over the threat of the cancel mob
wrg, some techx s k, doens tmatter, no nerdx etc nmw
As much as i enjoyed this video and the entertainment value is through the roof, i still hope we get more epic adventure quest now that Kramer has arrived to the mythical Shadlands.
😁😎
The number of times in fiction where some "speedy" rogue has moved faster than the eye can see and stabbed right through the chest plate with a dagger made of the same materials is way too many times. Just too many. My blankets take stabs better than fictional armor seems to.
When did armor stop being cool? Like I get not wearing a helmet so you can see the person, but what about the rest of them?
same reasons cloaks fell out of favorability despite how cool they are, functionally weren't needed anymore or better alternatives came about
Plot twist, that's on purpose. You are most vulnerable when you are sleeping. No joke.
The Rising of Shield Hero?
That anime is basically about how awesome his armor is.
Also Goblin Slayer did really well on armor representation
@@ShrockWPS
Although I don't think goblin slayer should have survived the hit from that massive goblin champion.
Otherwise his armor protecting from those small goblin weapons is pretty accurate.
It's so stupid. If you want your rogue to appear cool and epic, have him dart in and jab his dagger through a weak spot, _between_ the plates. Isn't that _far_ more appropriate for a "fast, dextrous" rogue rather than just cave-manning through the solid armour? That's what you'd expect to have a _barbarian_ type character doing to show off his immense strength.
(The rogue yelling "Sneak Attack, Bitch!" optional 😛)
shadiversity: makes a video proving that jumping attacks reduce overall force
also shadiversity: lets all jump while using this spear
Yea, I was wincing a bit during that part. Seemed like very bad/ineffective form. They need to study how athletes translate force from their legs up through their hips, body, & arms. Like baseball players translating leg power into swinging a bat or a QB throwing a football. Leaving the ground really handicaps the force.
I thought so too when I saw that. At least they redeemed it with the throw.
Regarding the penetration difference at 18:30 or so, acceleration beats mass for getting through armor, even in modern ballistics. That fact was part of the basis for NATO switching from the 7.62/.308 to 5.56/.223 as a main rifle round.
The thrown spear is simply faster than a charge, and with roughly the same mass, the acceleration becomes key to delivering the force needed to penetrate the armor.
Thanks for the explanation.
Well, basic physics, kinetic energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity ^2
Right. Think of a baseball. Would you rather have someone who can throw say, 80mph hit you with a baseball they're holding... Or throw it at you as hard as they can? 😂
* A better example would be a powerful pistol round - .44 Magnum for example - and a relatively weak rifle round - .223/5.56x45mm for example. .44 Magnum has a projectile 4-5 times heavier than .223 but at ~1/2 the velocity. On soft tissue .44 does more damage than .223. But .223 can defeat body armour that can stop .44 magnum.
The Story might be a different one when the target would be a lot heavier like a human body would be. Than the much higher mass of the charge would have a chance to actually apply its force. And its true the formula for kinetic energy is more influenced by speed than by force. But in some cases double the mass is way more easy to achieve than double the speed especially for the human body. I mean im pretty sure that a welterweight hits you with more speed than a heavyweight but i recon you would prefer beeing hit by the first one rather then the latter i guess.
I was confused by the intro having no sound. Am I alone?
I heard nothing.
I don't have in the intro
Yeah they don't have sound in the intro for some reason
Maybe youtube has been striking them with copyright for their own music. It happens sometimes. ... What? Why are you looking at me like that?
You’re supposed to sing it yourself, it’s built in audience participation!
It's always a cheerful occasion when there's a new Shadiversity video to watch.
I was expecting the armor to stand up well against the arrows but I didn't expect it to work that well.
That was very impressive.
I was hoping shad would have used his 130 pound bow to see how the armor stood up to that.
Arrows killed through rate of fire more then direct hits
Wow, Its almost like armor does exactly what its supposed to do, who'd have thunk it? Could that be why it was used for several millennia in some form or another. There is a reason that main battle field weapons were things like polearms, pikes, war axes and flails that were specifically designed to deal with armored opponents, either knocking them down or bludgeoning them through the armor to the point where they injure limbs or disorientate.
Yes, if you think about it, there was only a brief window where soldiers stopped wearing armour due to the power of firearms at the time. Soldiers are now back to wearing it again; even if it's not 'perfect' protection, it's often just _good enough_ to save one's bacon.
Movies are not dumb. Armor did not work. This is magic.
Haha your comment had me absolutely dying yes bludgeoning weapons have always been the meta. It pisses me off to see almost every anime in existence the main character always uses a fucking sword when there are so many much cooler weapons, like flail halberd morningstar, kusarigama, Naginata and way more.
Kinda obvious that you're trolling there, smh.@@mohammadtausifrafi8277
@@VictorSanchez-dt4vzmain battlefield weapons was always long pointy stick in some forms. Because reach in battle is the best advantage. Even one one it's pretty impossible to deal with a guy with spear when you have sword. Even pure height advantage in hema is huge.
You and Tod attacking armor for fun is so thrilling. I'm really happy that there are guys like you out there able to not only ask the question, but find the answer as well. Getting feed back from how it felt to be hit... all I could think of was Heath Ledger in "A Knights Tale".
wow! such a great seamless edit!
it's like Kramer is standing right there
Kramer has really fit in well with the gang. I look forward to future videos with him.
As for gaps in armor, if the opponent is not moving you have a chance. But an aware enemy, good luck with that one.
Kramer is a gem! I hope to see him in even more videos!
Having fought in Buhurt style armored combat I can say that plate armor and helmets are quite effective at mitigating blunt damage. I have taken a full force strike to the helmet from a blunted dane axe. I wouldnt willingly stand still and take a hit like that without trying to roll with the strike, but as long as you arent imobilised the helmet gives you the protection you need to handle a hit like that if you fail to block it and roll with the incoming strike. Blunt strikes to the torso can definitely knock the wind out of you, especially when you are grappling one opponent and their teammate hits you while your mobility is reduced.
Thats what I've always thought. Everything i know about physics says that if you took the exact same hit but the head of the hammer was pointed instead of blunt, it should hit "harder". But they do have flat heads, so theres got to be some benefit to it. But what exactly is the benefit?
@@ASpaceOstrich I could assume it might be how armour is designed to deflect pointy things. Maybe a flat head transfers more power into the right spot since it covers more area and thus doesn't get deflected, and a pointy head gets deflected and looses a lot of power? My only other thought is it could just be durability, a flat head might put less stress through other parts of the weapon compared to a pointy head. And I think we've seen how much you need to hit armour to actually get through so it could be that.
@@superdude8266 Probably you are right about impulse transferring, but from physics point of view there is one more thing: beak spends energy on tearing, hammer spends energy on denting - which one is less depends on properites of steel. Also, it's not impulse that hurts - it is the dent itself. This buldge squishes your organs with damage proportional to velocity of denting squared.
I'd imagine it's probably also partly due to rounded gear just typically being more comfortable and form fitting by comparison. While some gaps between the body and armor are tactical (primarily thinking of the space between the upper chest and the plate), it'd be a bit of a waste to use extra materials in making it boxy.
Also, imagine trying to carry or support a rectangle shaped ally. That'd be kinda rough.@@superdude8266
Very cool tests. That breast plate held up even better than I expected.
Thanks for the videos going through so many armor types and hitting them with real weapons. Keep up the great work.
I've watched Adrian's original videos, and you wouldn't believe how far he's advanced since then. I mean his forging was quite primitive, and that's not an insult, it's just amazing how much better his work is now.
Thank you. Primitive is probably putting it nicely. I still think I have a long way to go but I will get there.
"It's the hair, it makes him look majestic."
Yep.
I'm glad Kramer is with you in person in the videos now, he is really great
I love how it went from armor video to fangirling over a spear - not that I blame you, sticks and stones might break my bones but words can't hurt me because sharp stick already killed me.
Great job Kramer on being willing to take the hits.
I would have liked to see a clip of Shad hitting a water bottle or melon or something as hard as he was hitting Kramer as a visual of how hard he was hitting.
That's actually a very good idea.
2:37 just a complement, this is an invention of the Netflix series, because in the original books, Sapkowski describes Geralt attacking the gaps in the armor, on the shoulders and neck whenever he fights an armored opponent. (the story "is a matter of price" in the first book, we see this clearly). In games, although through gameplay, we can normally deal damage to armored opponents, in cutscenes, we see the armor deflecting blows and projectiles, in some scenes. Netflix doesn't understand armor
That's not Netflix, that's the witcher. In lore witchers blades are stupidly sharp and compared to higher vampires blades, their almost legendary so compared to the other magical things in the witcher, cutting through armor is what you chose to have a problem with?....
Witchers also have supernatural physical agility and strength that would make time and accuracy less of a hindrance towards landing those blows
@@dirge44 did you even read the comment
Awesome video love seeing the abuse that armor can take. Really wanna see yall hit it with some maces next
I also wonder how Indo Persian weapons like the katar would do against the breastplate.🤔
It would be interesting to see how it stands up after being repaired.
Thank you Shad for another great episode! You are a true Artist!!! 😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
I love Kramers reaction to getting hit with a stick, "I'm not even gonna pretend to be concerned; this is gonna be epic!" 😅
I wasn't expecting such resistance! Thank you for your video.
Love the videos shad though a breakdown of the imperial light and heavy armour in Skyrim would be interesting it has more viability than a lot of armours in fantasy titles.
Dude, I love Kramer's videos, so happy that he is able to be there with you guys. How long is he staying?
Until he’s canceled for associating with Shad
@@Robli231 honestly wouldn’t surprise me these days
What did he do recently?
@@bluephreakr not much, but as long as shad has an option on something, he is instantly wrong. Does not matter if he has a strong argument
@@Robli231wouldnt shad have to be canceled first? And shad doesnt look like hes canceled. Nor should he be.
the main reason for blunt force is actually mangling the armor so moving becomes difficult, and maybe make it cave into your body. you don't need to kill someone to disable him
And then ransom them back
It really is awesome seeing Kramer there with you guys, such a great freaking combo 🎉
Kramer is a good fit! Great video as always
Fairly sure you guys have worked with him before but Tod from Tod's Workshop has done a ton of videos on armors and period accurate ones easily withstood an arrow from a 160 pound bow shot by a professional. Generally his work focuses on period to period so this overlap with more modern weapons is a nice difference. You guys have some of his weapons already but maybe talking to him, getting some of his work, or insight would be nice if you ever do a followup. Was his channel that showed me just how big a myth the armor piercing stuff in fantasy is and it makes sense: of course armor would be built and changed to tank these strikes. That's why it's *armor.* They weren't stupid or going to just give up if an arrow went through, blacksmiths would find ways to perfect the defense because that's literally the job.
Tod tested a breastplate made of AISI1050 steel with a fracture toughness of 303 kJ/m2 in the first film. In the second film he tested mild steel with 0.2% C and a fracture toughness of 246 kJ/m2. This was then *work hardened.* This increased the fracture toughness to about 295 kJ/m2 or more.
In the comparable test he put together as an attempt to justify the choice of material for the armour in the AvA2 film, he *ignored* his own test results against bloomery steel. The top quality cross-laminated wrought iron produced using an adjustable fan and a thermometer was comparable to mild steel with 0.1% C and a fracture toughness of 229 kJ/m2. This indicated that he should go down in quality, but he went up to 0.2% C instead. It was not justified at all. Tod did not test a mid range steel quality. The armour was over 50% better than what it should be. Bloomery steel have a fracture toughness from 180-210 kJ/m2. The helmet, WC A69, was made of bloomery steel.
Tod deleted a photo of him and Shad together because people complained about Shads political views. Matt Easton who is very close with Tod wrote a huge Facebook post disavowing shad and how he will distance himself from Shad and not associate with him. A Shad and Tod collab will not happen
@@sowianskizonierz2693 I knew about Easton (aka Schola Gladiatoria) because people roasted him for acting like a b!tch and I was able to see his post. Tod I had not heard about and would appreciate any links you can provide.
@sowianskizonierz2693 I find this hilarious because I have no idea what Shad's political views are and I have been watching his videos for years. Even if I did disagree, I am an adult. I have learned (for the most part) to get along with people who aren't clones of myself. Oh well. To each his own.
@@sowianskizonierz2693 Hmm... that's too bad, I admire the work of both men.
Kramer is a real nice addition to the team ! the videos are great keep it up !!!!
So glad you're in Australia Kramer I love you so much
On the penetration front, think of it less in terms of force being imparted and how much kinetic energy can be transferred to the spear. It would be interesting to see the speed difference at the point of the spear tip in a thrust vs throw (I think this will likely explain the different in penetration). remember K.E = 0.5 m v^2 (so speed is a big factor in K.E!)
I think it's about speed. When throwing, the leverage of whole arm is very significant.
definitely about speed. For every time you double speed the kinetic energy is quadrupled. When you double mass the energy is doubled. I think that explains why having your body weight behind the weapon wasn't the answer here especially when you factor in it's on a small part of your body weight.
Yeah speed plays a large role as well the seize of the area where the force is transfered.
Kramer being there with Shad is the multiverse crossover I didn't know I needed!
Such a blast with these tests, glad Kramer could join for these :)
Tyr's form in 16:00 was so beautiful. Well done sir.
The no sound intro scared me.
Turns out theres a good reason why people spent literal fortunes on armor - because it worked.
Yup. Medieval war was largely "pay to win", everyone knew it was, got pissed off even more when it didn't work (e.g. The Battle of Crécy). And even there it's likely that most of the heavy armoured knights weren't killed by the arrows, or at least by the arrows penetrating the armor immediately. Their mounts were killed, they were stuck in the mud and exhausted, and the arrows just kept coming.
And that's why we love reenacting those battles. We can afford the armor and can do it reasonably safely even using steel swords (not sharpened however).
Best video in a while, love to see kramer join in, thanks as always!
I would recommend Todd's workshop, he's done a LOT of work on Arrows vs Armour with the Royal armouries and realistic arrows. Its fascinating
K.E. = 1/2 m v^2
M= mass
V= velocity
Speed effects Kinetic energy more than mass does since it's squared.
When you throw vs. stab a spear, you're likely throwing it faster than you might stab it. And if you arch the spear, the spear will gain velocity from gravity as it moves downward.
yes, but the increase in velocity in this case would not compensate enough for the extreme loss of mass
Probably not, there might be more velocity but even squared the increase in mass is far more substantial. Most likely their thrusts just weren't that strong, the jumps they were doing looked cool but you would be better off keeping your feet firmly planted.
Even on hits with a lot of mass they aren't necessarily going to impart it to the target well. If you hit something, you stop imparting energy when the target moves at the same speed you do, so high mass low velocity strikes are great for pushing a target, but not so great for piercing them.
In this case, I would bet that the thrusts weren't doing as well because the target isn't braced. If it were braced and none of the energy was wasted, the results should be much more impressive.
Also, arching something on a throw doesn't actually make it any stronger. All the energy you "gain" on the way down, is countered by the energy lost on the way up, plus whatever you lose from drag.
... Oi, yeah, we alls gout places ta go and peoples ta clomp. Try ta simplify it like tis.
Have ya tried hitten et hardar?
@calsalitra4689 If mass is doubled, kinetic energy is doubled. If speed is doubled, kinetic energy is multiplied by four. Speed is generally speaking more important for kinetic energy and penetration.
The problem with archery is that arrows can only be loaded with so much energy before they break apart. Heavier arrows can generally hold more energy before breaking apart, but this doesn't mean speed is less important than mass.
In all things, there is a balancing point. Evidence to this is the fact that nobody is hunting with 100 grain arrows. maximize speed because
@@IndexKingOfC Yeah, and what does that have to do with what I said? A maybe 20-30% increase in speed when thrown, even squared, is irrelevant next to the upwards of 500-1000% increase in effective mass when thrusted.
The more likely issue, as I said, is that the target isn't braced. Therefore, most of the increased energy from mass isn't used.
Regarding the debate about left-sided, versus right-sided shoting. I think that a major point that I have never heard mentioned before is, if you have the arrow knocked on the left, you can way more easily hold it in a resting position if you are for example hunting and walking for maybe 1 or 2 hours. The arrow would naturally sit on top of the bow if you hold it in your left hand. If the arrow was on the right, you would either have to hold the bow way more unnaturally, or keep it from falling with your thumb the whole time.
Yeah, though that would only be beneficial for the very first shot and if you then needed a higher rate of fire, shooting on the right side would be more beneficial.
It’s possible the first shot from resting was shot from the left and then subsequent shots for a faster fire rate would be shot from the right.
Military archery tended to be very different from hunting archery. The hunter needs to stay ready to shoot for far longer than the soldier waiting in an organized battle does. The poundage of those war bows also means that trying to stay ready to shoot would get tiring fast too.
Another great video! Kudos to Kramer for taking those hits. BTW, Kramer does have epic hair...and Tyranth too. 😁
I missed your videos! Well done and what a good sport Kramer was.
I do like that you're using a more common soldiers armour compared to the fairly high quality plate in Todd's series.
How do you know that modern mild steel is a good analog for a mid range medieval steel? The lowest grades of mild steel have a fracture toughness of 220 kJ/m2. Bloomery steel have a fracture toughness from 180-210 kJ/m2, with 210 being an outlier. Modern made armour on the market made of mild steel is usually made of steel with 0.1% C, 0.17% C, 0.2% C, and 0.3% C. The fracture Toughness of these grades are 229, 237 and 246 and 256 kJ/m2, respectively. Those 3 last are analogs for air-cooled medieval medium carbon steel produced in a blast furnace. This would then go through finery to reduce carbon content. It was only produced in Milan. By the middle of the 15th century, armour of this quality started to be produced in the German lands. If we take a look at armour from the 14th and early 15th Century, bloomery steel and wrought iron make up almost 2/3 of surviving samples of armour examined by Williams. Air-cooled medium carbon steel or better make up slightly more than 1/3. So I do not understand how this supposedly represents a mid range quality? It might be so in the late 15th century, but not in the 14th and early 15th century. The lowest grade of mild steel is even better than average medieval steel in that regard.
Edit: I watched the video on how this breastplate was made. It is also *work hardened* mild steel. This will increase the fracture toughness by about 20% or more.
Tod's Workshop has a great video about arrows vs armor where he together with a few people did come rather serious deep dive testing with 150-160 pound bow against professionally made armor, helmet, arm guards, shoulder guards with padding.
Wow the armor even survived the mighty Stick.
As to why the thrown weapons seem to have more energy, they do. The physics momentum equation is P=m*(V**2) so one more m/s of velocity will have a far greater influence on the force of the weapon than an additional kg of weight put behind the weapon. It would be interesting to calculate the momentum of thrusts vs the momentum of a thrown spear. You would have to measure the speed of the thrust and throw somehow… maybe frame counting to find the time to find the time it takes to cross a set distance (like painted black and yellow stripes on a plank of wood and watch the tip as it crosses from the start of a stripe to the end of a stripe.) then you could get the mass by measuring the mass of the weapon and the mass of the wielder. Then plug those into the momentum equation. For the thrown spear, the mass of the spear by itself and the speed measured as it flies through the air. For the thrust/stab, the mass of the spear plus the mass of the person using the spear and the speed measured as it is thrust.
Oh! There is another interesting question for you! I’m curious: do you think that when you stab with a spear your whole weight is put into the stab or is it part of your weight?
Either way, I love what you guys do! Love the chemistry y’all have. It is so epic. Your videos have only gotten better and better. Can’t wait to see what you are doing next!
Except the equation is actually Ke=1/2 MV for calculating the impact force. Weight and speed are proportional.
When you stab, you most likely have less force near full extension because of balance hesitations. When you throw something, you don't have to worry about balance so much. You launch the item before you reach full extension. So you're not holding the object back, therefore giving it moar velocity.
There's also the shifting of your body weight which slows down once you reach full extension (which also kinda ties into keeping your balance). This is why thrusting when closer to your target tends to do moar damage.
This was an excellent video❤. I would definitely like to see more armor tests.
That was a great surprise to see Kramer here in person!
Also great he didn't get hit with a bec :D
The POINT of Achilles stabbing through Hector's armor so easily is simple, HE IS ACHILLES. He also made frozen rope, headshot, javelin throws from 100 meters away, too, being the son of a god has perks (except for the heel thing).
Yeah, better example would be Ezio punching through breastplates with throwing knifes in brotherhood trailer.
@@Oriaks I think that the reason we see so many stabs through armor in movies has to with it being easier to fake a puncture through metal than it is to make one through flesh not look fake as a practical effect.
@@randlebrowne2048 If you can't make it convincing, don't write yourself in situation where you have to fake it. Honestly, plate armor being pierced with tiny knife ruins my immersion far more than bad practical effect.
@@Oriaks Agreed. I was just presenting the rational for why they do it.
Armor is called armor for a reason. It is not called costume, it is not called good-for-nothing-crap. It is armor. It protects you. And as somebody who actually wears some of it, I can tell you that it is the best thing you can have on medieval battlefield. You can be the most skilled swordsman on planet Earth and you still cannot prevent random blow or arrow bypassing your defences in the chaos. They wore it for a damn good reason.
Kramer's hair rocks with the Rapier. We should see him with a full set of clothing to match it. I bet it would look awesome.
21:22 That slap was personal 🤣
It made me laugh much more than it should have been
17:59 With modern body armor vs bullets, the main factor after projectile hardness, is how fast it is moving. doesn't really matter how much power is behind it if it isnt fast (and hard) enough. The firearms channel TAOFLEDERMAUS, best known for testing weird custom shotgun rounds, has some great examples of this. Compare a standard lead 12g foster slug vs body armor, vs something like what they uploaded today, a nylon (discarding sabot) projectile with a tiny tungsten penetrator core. All the nylon does is get the tiny core there FAST. A lead foster slug would have zero chance of going through an ar500 armor plate. its softer and slower, yet the nylon with core punches straight through, despite having a fraction of the mass.
A big, fat, shotgun slug also has more of it's own surface area compared to the sabot. That mean more drag when trying to push through the target as well.
No sound for intro?
Very informative video. Greatly appreciated and good job all around. I was recently rewatching Game of Thrones, and my god, but either they had taken a lot of liberties, or every swordsman in Westeros was as strong as Superman. Just crazy!
Yay! A video finally with Kramer!
Only Tyranth did the jump stabs correctly: You need to have the spear hit the target before your foot hits the ground, otherwise no force transfer and the jump is useless.
Great video guys! It is videos like this that fantasy/medieval writers need to watch. One thing I liked about this is how you are using average armor. I have seen documentaries on Agincourt where they do a test to see if an English longbow could penetrate armor, and they always use Milanese Armor. AKA, the Rolls-Royce of medieval armor at the time. While it is interesting to see if the richest knights could survive a longbow, I want to know about the average armor that most knights and men-at-arms would be wearing.
Historical fiction writer G. A. Henty, did get armor right in his books that took place in the medieval period. In his book "At Agincourt, the White Hoods of Paris" the MC and 5 English longbowmen are besieged in a house by a mob. Even though the character Long Tom has an extremely powerful bow, he has to aim for unarmored parts (like the throat) on the armored leaders of the mob.
I was disappointed that you didn't use a battleax against the armor.
One thing to note, even if Stick can't do an incapacitating hit on the breastplate, it could stun the recipient for a second or two, which could give Stick wielder the chance to hit the head or hand and do more damage.
You guys are great - thanks for this video - and you made me laugh multiple times, but Shad's "Maybe Kramer is just stronger than you..." - and Tyranth's reaction - fantastic
Yoooo I love the Living Anachronism! very cool colab
So a wild suggestion for Functional Fandom, coming from both mythology and anime.
It's said (at least in some versions) that the legendary Irish warrior Cu Chulainn's most deadly technique using his spear, Gáe Bolg, was to kick/launch it with his feet.
Perhaps you all could try that? Or maybe just experimenting with throwing spears/javelins in general.
I took a few lessons with the Thai spear and the instructor claimed that horsemen used to have the spears suspended horizontally from the saddle so they could kick them, launching them like missiles at the enemy. I'm very skeptical, but I'd love to see someone try it out.
I watch a lot of Tod's Workshop and anyone interested it a deep dive of arrows vs armor could check out his video series on that. They go in very deep detail using a professional archer and real armor, testing penetration and all that. Very good video series that shows how that worked with plenty of slow motion shots. Even gets a perfect "mail slot" hit on the eye slit of a helm and you get to see how that would play out.
I also love Todd's videos
this video also lowkey showed how slow paced medieval battles must been with armored soldiers, which leads to the point that later in medieval battle it must been looked like a zombies battle due to exhaustion
Correct me if I’m wrong: archers were essentially never used in close quarters Medieval combat, and would fire from relative safety at targets just within their effective range. So their arrows would trace a parabolic arc being fired upwards and falling downwards on the enemy in large numbers. I can’t tell how far Shad is to the breastplate but it seems awfully close to me - if a line of archers and a line of infantry were that close, the archers probably wouldn’t even bother nocking an arrow and would be routed and scattered or the infantry would close the distance and cut them down with ease.
How's the titan sword coming along?
Todds workshop did a great series of videos about arrows vs armor. Check it out for a war bow vs medieval armor
It's the hair... it makes him look majestic! 😂😂 so true!
By you hypotheses about the transfer of force with the spear thrown versus holding it the nunchucks would be amazing. Something is of here
Its a shame that modern ballistic armor is restricted in Australia as I'd love to see how kevlar and ceramic plates would do against combat grade medieval weaponry. I've seen some videos done here in the US, but usually by those who have little to no expertise on such weapons and thus use pretty much display pieces in their videos.
Also I'd love to see how a Bodkin arrowhead does against this armor in this video. Especially from the 110lbs warbow. I think it might have a shot of getting some penetration on the mid-grade steel, maybe.
Kevlar is basically just a modern take on the gambeson (usually with less coverage). Kevlar (and similar materials) mostly use their elasticity to prevent punctures. Any weapon that relies on cutting (rather than kinetic impact) would probably be able to defeat it (depending on thickness).
Modern metal or ceramic plate inserts seem like the equivalent of brigandine. The ceramic plates would probably stop a single hit from a war hammer or bec de corbin; but, that stuff crumbles to dissipate kinetic shock. It probably wouldn't provide much protection for a second hit.
Modern military body armor is designed with the idea that the soldier is going to avoid being hit almost always; but, needs to take just a few *very* hard hits in an emergency! More like a car's (single-use) airbags.
I think Shad mentioned this if a previous video , but I’m wondering if medieval battlefield injuries would be survivable if they had our current understanding of medicine and human anatomy?
People survive modern war injuries (gunshots and shrapnel) in low tech/low mean setting (poor country/ frontline)so i think yes?
King Henry 2 had a joust spear go through his eye and died of septicemia 11 days later, if modern understanding of medecin imply antiseptic capabilities i would greatly increase survivability.
Some injuries and deaths would still occur but rates of survival would most certainly increase
Nice to meet you kraken, hopefully not a dummy for this guys 😂. Love your videos 😊
Holy cow was I surprised to see Kramer here!
As much as I would want a breastplate can we talk about how each part of armor was but a small part of a larger cohesive system? Those arrows were either deflecting into what would have been vital body systems or outright missing the plate and striking them with full force.
There are some parts you can only armor so much though.
Like you can't move your neck if you armor it up too much, so the spear throw would've still likely gotten you even with the whole system
One issue with the test could be the dummy itself not providing enough resistance. If there was a more solid stance bracing the armor the power transfer would be better.
Might also be why the thrown spear goes deeper than the jabbed spear.
No, that's actually accurate. A human is not 'solid' either. Humans most certainly wouldn't be trying much to brace against an impact from a weapon. You can see how Kramer was being pushed back from significantly weaker strikes.
Humans bodies are literally made to deal with impacts. All your bones, joints and ligaments are purposed to spread force across a larger section, and with the center of mass being around the pelvic area for women and middle/upper part of torso on men, strikes on the upper body will be even further make the body go back as there's a lot of mass moving on top of the legs.
@@kikixchannel I remember seeing armor tests where this was an issue.
You want a base that won't topple but will buckle.
I've seen tests with a full support behind and the weapons (for the most part) didn't get through even chain mail.
But the weapons specifically designed to destroy armor did so.
It was what the arrows vs armor by Todd's workshops did was make sure the base was a lot more representative of the human body with the idea that humans don't want to fall over or give ground. (They angled the armor by having the dummy lean forward).
It is interesting though when a specific dagger was used by one channel and would go through steel no problem and another channel couldn't pierce the armor at all. So many variables to these kind of tests.
The base of a dummy part is just a simple correction that can be made.
@@ethanatkins1973 A human doesn't need to fall though...A human would actively move their torso back, but would also move their legs and manipulate their center of gravity to stay standing.
Using any support behind is going to falsify the test 100% of the time, giving completely useless result. It allows to achieve literally impossible level of force transfer.
Angling the dummy to make it harder to fall back will likewise falsify the results. In part because the armors angle will be obviously different than it was designed for (note that bending the plates in-between the 'gaps' will be much easier if you can put in more force and aim at them easier...but in normal fight that would be a horrid angle to strike at with any real force), but the dummy is also much stiffer than the human body. There are literally dozens of joints that all work to disperse any strike on the torso. Dozens. Yes, most of those would work to disperse force to the body without actually helping much for the armor, but there are minimum four that will (where spine connects to pelvis, hip, knee and ankle, in one leg) You won't find even one in a dummy.
There is no simple fix to represent a complex mechanism.
As for the argumentation that humans 'don't want to give ground'...that is a weird assumption that was made for explaining why they stiffened the dummy. You aren't giving ground by mitigating damage. If you twist to side while moving your torso and one leg back, you end up primed to thrust back with more force than normally, thus negating any 'ground given' instantly.
In fact, that's why it's dangerous to overreach when attacking somebody. If you don't debilitate them (and you won't against armor), you are in a weaker position. That's why no one that values their life would actually try to push into the space you momentarily 'neglected'. Because they risk opening themselves up. People will only close in on you in three circumstances. To get into the more effective range of their weapon, to chase you when you dodge backwards, or when you are actually momentarily neutralized, like if you do trip, lose your grip, get distracted etc. Not when you are more than capable of swinging/thrusting back at them right away.
Welcome home Kramer
cool to see u having guests on the show :D
At Agincourt, the French were not all plate armored, it's a common error due to the fact that it is said that the French Knights were defeated by arrows, but it is just forgetting a crucial thing, there was not just knights in the army.
Actually knights is a cavalry unit, in French the word for "knight" is "Chevalier", and the word for "horse" is "Cheval", but that day at Agincourt, the land was so muddy cavalry was not used.
Most Franch units were wearing partially plated protections, a lot were wearing gambisons and mails, so if you saw a representation of Agincourt armies that looks like the movie "excalibur", it is pure cinema.
what happened, is what often happens when an army stay on a defensive stance against an army that goes on assault, it is always way more costly in human lives to attack than to defend.
specially if you have time to prepare some positions with pikes and covers up hills, as the English did that day, if you add the muddy land, attacking those hills is a whole adventure.
And it is now well accepted that Henry V actually was aware of the French plans to send a sneaky attack while faking full rush.
This is incorrect. Knights in France had full plate armour by 1380, judging by 300 effigies. By 1415 the vast majority of men-at-arms, had full plate armour. The gros valets in the second division had been chosen specifically because they were the best armoured valets. However, they numbered only 1,600. The men-at-arms numbered 10,000. Each one of those had at least 1 gros valet, but the majority were in the 3rd division and didn't participate in the battle. The French archers participated, but they routed after one volley. Full plate doesn't mean top quality plate armour produced in Milan. Most of it was made of bloomery steel and wrought iron, judging by surviving samples.
If "Well, ackshually" was a person...
The English didn't win at Agincourt with archery. The French knights did initially try to charge the English line on horseback. The mud bogged them down and they began to lose horses. They regrouped and went in on foot, in two waves. The first wave hit the English line and the fighting was about even. Then the second wave hit and the weight of their numbers began to push the line back. That is when the bowmen put down their bows and charged the French in the flanks in melee combat which decided the battle for the English. I will repeat it again, the English bowmen PUT DOWN THEIR BOWS AND ENGAGED THE FRENCH IN HAND TO HAND COMBAT, that is what won the day. They did not do it with archery.
@@robo5013 This is incorrect. The Religieux wrote “In the opinion of the French, it was precisely what injured the most their enemies which assured the English of victory, especially the continuous way in which they had rained down on our men a terrifying hail of arrow shot.”
The cavalry was made up of 1,200 of the best men-at-arms on armoured horses, but only about 420-800 attacked, depending on which sources you read. This happened simultaneously with the attack on foot, but the men on horses moved faster. The first division on foot was made up of 4,800 of the best men-at-arms. It was this division that reached the English lines and pushed it back, but only because most of the men-at-arms with the best armour and highest social status was at the front. That's why a portion of these survived and reached the English lines. The two wedges of archers and the archers on the flanks, according to Gesta Henrici Quintie, redirected the men-at arms into the three battles of English men-at-arms by *"missiles which by their very force pierced the sides and visors of their helmets …"* In other words, this happened at long to medium range. When the French men-at-arms had reached the English lines, he can tell us that the *"... archers notched their sharp-pointed arrows and loosed them into the enemy's flanks, keeping up the fight without pause."* This is the main reason for why the English won the battle. If they were able to pierced the sides and visors of their helmets at medium to long range, they could do worse at close range. This is supported by several other sources. When the French men-at-arms tried to close the distance between them and the archers, the archers killed several of them. In the words of Thomas Walsingham: *"... arrows flew again from all directions, and iron sounded on iron, while volleys of arrows struck helmets, plates and cuirasses. Many of the French fell, pierced with arrows, here fifty, there sixty."* He is talking about groups of men on foot bunching up to get away from the arrows. The Religieux wrote that they were: *"... forced to retreat in the face of the enemy archers after they had lost several of the braves of their men.”* Lydigate wrote that: *"through bascinet, habergeon and breastplate they went."* The sides of breastplates and helmets could be pierced since these parts are thinner and the arrows came in from the flanks. For the most part the sources does not go into detail on what the arrows did. Elmham, for example, simply wrote: *"Their nobility in the front, divided into three groups, advanced towards the banners in the three positions. Our arrows were carried and penetrated..."*
Arrows penetrating the sides of helmets and armour is supported by sources from other battles. According to Walsingham, the bailiff of the town during the siege of Pontevedra in 1386, was struck by an English arrow *“which pierced his bascinet and his head also.”* At the battle of Homidol Hill in 1402 the bowmen: *“pierced entirely through these armored men, drilling through their helmets …"* Walsingham can also tell us that at a battle in 1383 the English archers: *"surpassed all others... for they so struck the enemy with their flying arrows that of their armored men no more remained, than if they had been unarmored... Bodies were perforated, their armor [lorica] notwithstanding; breasts were wounded, the plates [lamina] not resisting; heads were shot through [transfigebantur], the helmets not helping."*
Arrows penetrated the sides of their helmets, aventails, voiders protecting armpits and plate armour on the limbs and killed a large number of them and severely wounded the vast majority. The wounded and disabled had to be killed with the use of melee weapons, including those who wanted to surrender. So when the arrows were used up, they moved in and killed and surrounded the remaining men-at-arms, but only when the archers had done their job. The survivors with good Milanese armour surrendered, and even these were wounded when they reached Calais, according to The Religieux. The sources can tell us that the English took 1,600 noble prisoners and killed 5,600-6,600. That is 8,200 altogether, the same as the first division (4,800 men-at-arms) and second division (3,400 men-at-arms) combined. In addition came 1,600-1,800 killed gros valets from the second division, and 1,600 archers and crossbowmen. That is a total of about 10,000 being killed, mentioned by several sources. Some of the sources count half or more of the gros valets as nobles. Had it not been for the arrows shot from the flanks, the English would not have won the day. You are not giving French men-at-arms much credit when 8,200 men-at-arms and 1,600 well armoured gros valets on foot couldn't defeat 5,000 archers and 1,000 English men-at-arms during the melee.
@@eirikronaldfossheim Did you read?
There was not just knights in the French armies, à full plate armor was an expensive unique gear, used by nobles, rich people.
We talk about a time when even having à whole set of metal tools was uncommon to peasants, these were precious stuff, transmitted from generations, forged stuff was expensive. So imagin a plate armour, with articulations, this is such à complex blacksmith job far more expensive than tools, way to much for most footmen.
To be fair, you could go into the gaps of a breastplate, BUT no enemy will stay still waiting you to aim for that. About the arrows, Todd already tested that, but i think there is still a chance of happening. From what i remember, its said that in the Battle of Agincourt the most archers were put on the sides, shooting in an angle. So, it would more easly hit arms and the gap of the armpit. Also, breastplates are usually thicker in the middle and thinner on the sides, so an arrow maybe could penetrate there. That being said, maybe a high end warbow against a very low quality breastplate could penetrate. We have to remember that we are not soldiers that trained since we were, i dont know, 10 or 12, to use bows every single day and we are not shooting bows the entire day to save our lives until our hands bleed. There were a reason for the french to hate english archers so much that every single one of them that were captured would have their fingers cut off. The reason was simple: common peasants were killing rich, full armored knights everywhere using bows.
The longbowmen at the battle of Agincourt didn't really kill many knights or men-at-arms though. The vast majority were killed in the melee or after the fighting. There's a reason why longbowmen got fucked up by armoured opponents in nearly every other battle during the later stages of the 100 years war.
They fired 125-500k arrows at Agincourt to kill 6000 men at arms in partial plate. Its all about volume lol
One on one becomes a matter of skill being able to exploit a weakness - on a battlefield where anyone can attack you while engaged in another direction is the most frightening.
Lol that last bit reminded me of that scene in A Knights Tale where they smack him with that giant log to test the armor and he gets up and says "I barely felt it" :D
I think it is mostly a biomechanical thing. If you braced your feet on something (like a big rock) and trained your grip with the correct weight weapon it will penetrate more. Your arm out at a distance jumping isnt going to transfer much of your bodys momentum. Look at how little your body slows down after contact (even detectable?) compared to how quickly the thrown spear slows down.
Also consider that opponents would be moving around and instinctively reacting to incoming blows (sinking, rotating, re-directing force, etc). Even a punch-drunk opponent is just going to flop like a sack of beans. I think it's reasonable to assume these aspects might cancel each other out; especially considering it's probably not something that could be tested safely.
The main problem for charging French Knights at Agincourt and Crecy was that if you fire enough longbows at the charging mass you hit a lot of horses and once they start tumbling other following ranks start to crash into them too, causing total chaos. And if you fire massed volleys some will find the weak spots in the armour.
Except they weren't on horseback because it was too muddy. They were literally walking into the hail of arrows.
Actually read an account of the battle. The English didn't win it with archery. The French knights did initially try to charge the English line on horseback. The mud bogged them down and they began to lose horses. They regrouped and went in on foot, in two waves. The first wave hit the English line and the fighting was about even. Then the second wave hit and the weight of their numbers began to push the line back. That is when the bowmen put down their bows and charged the French in the flanks in melee combat which decided the battle for the English. I will repeat it again, the English bowmen PUT DOWN THEIR BOWS AND ENGAGED THE FRENCH IN HAND TO HAND COMBAT, that is what won the day. They did not do it with archery.
@@robo5013 well, it was actually the same at every significant battle - Morlaix, Cresy, Poitiers, Najera, Agincourt - every and one of those english victories were not achieved with arrows alone, and most of them had archers joining in as light infantry.
Thank you very much, that explains a lot of things. I imagine the French knights were exhausted from trudging through the mud and the impact of arrows, and as far as I know, the English had maces etc. to deal with armor.@@robo5013
Hey, you guys finally found Kramer. Good job.😂
slow-mo arrows to the groin are a thing i didn't know i'd find hilarious until now XD
"The gaps in the armour", pretty sure you demonstrated that VERY well with that spear going through the throat! ;) Normally, a fellow would be wearing a helmet and try to have some neck protections, but I'm pretty sure some piddly mail would not help there.
Introdosent have sound
Shad and his big stick is always entertaining if you know what I mean 😂
Awesome video, after reading books like GoT where you hear of characters caving in chests with giant hammer blows its awesome to see what could and wouldn't work!