Pro Tools 2019.5 issues & how to mix with hardware in parallel!
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2019
- A brief overview of my journey and troubles updating from ProTools 12, to ProTools 2019.5. And how to manually calculate delay compensation for hardware inserts.
Instagram / coltcapperrune
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It's almost 2020 and no HW delay compensation in Protools, absolutely amazing!
Yup. Thats why pro tools sucks.
Quick tip: If you set the timeline to samples and make a selection between the transients of both clips, it will show the selection size in samples next to the main counter at the top of your screen :)
Man,
Thanks so much for the explanation:
I’ve been struggling with phase issues for years with my Apollo rig.
The nudging with the samples is great for being precise on the calculation
Now I can parallel my distressor in real time!
Great video! What a pain. Fun fact almost unrelated. You used spotlight to open the calculator. If you open spotlight the way you did and just type in your calculation it will automatically do it without you having to open the calculator.
Dude life saver… I just started having this issue and this was a super easy solution
Dude! I can't thank you enough! Just getting into using hardware inserts on a PT11 Machine. This saved my A$$. Thanks!
Excellent information Colt.
When I disable "Host Engine: Ignore Errors" the delay compensation works perfectly. Using Mac mini 2018, Protools 2020.09.1 with an Apollo 8 black face.
Hey Colt, I have the Apollo 16 mkii as well and have NEVER had to compensate for hardware inserts. Different versions of pro tools would cause the phase so I always would revert to the version that worked. It's funny cause I knew it wasn't supposed to work but ran with it. Anyway AVID really need to add the ping feature that every other daw has to compensate for round trip latency.
Thanks for this video. I've read how to do the calculations but your video helped me make sense of it all.
My findings are... I had to do this after subscribing as well. Previously, I owned a copy of PT12 HD, but used non-HD interfaces...
Turns out, this is why it worked! Only "HD" version has the delay compensation, not the "HD hardware".
I upgraded to the new PT Studio, which includes all the PT HD features... heat, surround mixing, copy automation to send, AND HW DELAY COMPENSATION!!! WOOOOOOO! IT'S BACK!
Jumped to Studio One 4.5, and havent looked back. Great DAW, that was build from the ground up all over. Rebuilt by former employers of Avid, Logic, and other DAWs.
Yes but they still have issues with cpu consumption and plug-in latency
@@bighousemusic628 I don't have any issues. I run a Hybrid mixing rig. Your interface plays a role as well as some interface drivers can me more cpu intensive than others depending how well they are written. I use the MOTU AVB converters for my setup.
Nah was Studio One was originally developed by two former Steinberg developers that worked on Cubase and Nuendo. They left Steinberg and created a new start up company in 2004 which was known as Kristal Labs. Kristal Audio Engine was the predated Studio One software before Presonus purchased Kristal Labs assets. Kristal Audio Engine was later changed to Studio One with farther development under Presonus.
Pro tools needs to step their game up big time. All other DAWS blow pro tools away. This sad avid. Shame on you Avid
Read the Avid CEO Book "The Story Teller Dilemma" and you'll understand what are their priorities now : providing cloud services not products
They are fucking doom if they don't dump subscription and that filthy ilok trash
@@bighousemusic628 Luna is coming for them.
Colt you are the Man brotha
Thanks for the video. I ran into this problem last night after trying to use hardware inserts after doing the same upgrade that you did. Like you, I've been using hardware inserts for years on PT11 and never had to worry. Everything was coming back in sample accurate. I can't believe that we're being told that this was never a feature. I calculated the latency slightly differently: I put the main counter to samples and dragged a selection from peak to peak and used took the selection length from the main counter. Now, what was strange is that I measured 512 - which is what my buffer size is. When I saw you measure 1024, I guessed that you have your buffer size set to the same thing. Anyway, good luck out there!
Hah,
Good point; I measured 512 also with a buffer size of 512!
It should be slightly bigger than the buffer size, because the latency is the sum of the buffer and analog converter latency, which usually about 10 samples or so.
Even when you delay it the correct amount in software, there can still be inter-sample latency and phase shifts that are frequency dependent. For parallel processing, it is generally better to also route a stereo output back into the interface dry that you can blend with the wet signal from the compressor. This way, any phase shift is on both the dry and wet tracks and there is no comb filtering. The only disadvantage is that you use more hardware I/O
This may be a dumb suggestion but it works for me and super quick. With new protools 2022 and Apollo 8x latency is crazy.. I use a Bricasti and TC reverb 4000 as outboard gear. I typically record reverb onto a separate audio track. (I only use the reverbs on snare, vox and guitars) When time to mix, I can l match up the wave at bar 1 and locks in the entire song. If I need another verb I just repeat. I have go to verb plates so my process is fast.
Your vids are great but I so not at your math level. Wish I had you at a session. lol Thanks for posting!
Thank you man! worked great for me, you are a life saver!!
Guys! I want to follow up and clarify something:
Pro Tools DOES support hardware latency compensation with third-party audio interfaces. The manual approach shown in this video is ONLY necessary when there's something causing latency (e.g. a digital FX unit) in the signal path.
However, this latency compensation isn't always perfectly sample accurate, so might need additional tweaking when used for parallel processing. It's sample accurate for me using a UAD Apollo Twin, though!
To get hardware latency compensation working, make sure to disable "Ignore Errors During Playback/Record" in the Playback Engine settings. For some reason, having this enabled breaks PT's hardware compensation.
thanks for this note! wow,
@@Doctaj54did it work?
@@DreTheEngineer Yes it does!! I ran several RTL tests in Protools and wondered why I was only getting 1-2 samples of latency. I checked(enabled) "Ignore Errors During Playback/Record", ran the tests again, and boom! The latency showed up as 65 samples or 1.34ms(48k). SMH I found that extremely weird but I NEVER use the "Ignore Errors" feature so that's explains it. Protools can and will compensate for hardware inserts without making any adjustments in the I/O from what's see. Just uncheck/disable "Ignore Errors". With the New Mac Studio I run all sessions with the buffer set to 64 and it's been very solid. Set it and forget it.
@@Doctaj54 thank you, i need a new mac, my computer hates that i unchecked it lol. errors everywhere
At the end of the video I was expecting that you run again in parallel from the instrument track to the 2 audio tracks via 2 sends... but you added an insert and played a pre recorded click instead. However the information on this video was very useful.
I expected the same thing. It still doesn't work if you would do it via send from the instrument track. I don't get it how it fix latency issue if you first have to record the delayed signal through i/o and then put insert on top of it to fix it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
This is great! Thanks!
bad bad issue, same here.... By the way, thanx for sharing with us!! cheers from Italy, dude :)
Hi! Just watching your latest video and then checked out your old ones, didn't know you used to use Event Opals! I still have some but am looking to change soon and really like the look (not listened to any yet) of the Focal Trio6 ST6. Might be a silly question but how do they compare (from memory I'm guessing LOL)?
Cheers
Paul
Thanks for this!
thanks for this. i made the same move and have been having the same issues with PT and Apogee Symphony. Have you noticed recording been a bit late too? is there any way to offset this or does the the delay compensation calculation fix both??
Was you buffer set to 1024 for mixing in this session ? If so then recording audio maybe offset by that many samples depending on buffer, delay compensation & or other settings in the settings menu... Only asking to learn more b/c I recently had this issue with my Apollo when it has worked flawlessly before having the Apollo set to Pro Tools mode. Thanks for the vid!
Thanks for a great video! Do i need to go through this, I’m using an Apollo twin duo with an adat on,can’t I just type in the samples you calculated?
I did the same experiment and works flawless!, I have PT 12.6.0 running on OS High Sierra, idk if I doing something wrong but I dont have that problem.
Great video!!!! But I think I will just stick with *protools 10 that has the secret outboard gear delay compensation* that no one else seems to know anything about. Works fine to me. 😂😂😂😂
jam bam seriously! Hahaha
Great info. How’s your Trash can Macpro workout vs the big old sliver case Macpro ?
Thanks a lot for this.
Is it on spot to such a degree that it cancels the output if you phase revert one of the tracks?
Hi and thanks for the video. So for me it worked when using as an insert whatever buffer sample rate I choose, but not when using a Bus send to hardware.. any idea how to fix this ? (+ then the sample rate buffer choice of the session changes the delay... )
Thanks a lot for this video Colt, really really helpful. The weird thing is that, in my case, I did the tests here with click signal going out of my Clarett+ 8 Pre and running through my Warm Audio Bus Comp and I had NO DELAY at all! I even tried to move Warm`s track by 1 sample to either left and right but that caused phasing issues, so the signal was just like almost 0 delay (although we know 0 is likely impossible). So I had to do nothing with regards to delay compension to get things in phase between those 2 gears. My WA273 is about to arrive and I`m looking forward to doing the same tests and see what would be the delay on that gear as well. Just wondering if Pro Tools did that compensation or not.
Another thing I tried was intentionally setting my delay compensation to like 200 ms to see if both signals would be shifting each other, but I don`t know why they stayed the same, pretty much aligned on time.
Thanks for sharing such a great “hacking”👍
Im currently mixing wih a small hybrid set-up. I'll send vocals out of pro tools into a hardware pre-amp then into a compressor, after i get wat i think sounds good i print it and continue mixing. With hardware delay compensation should i send a click track through this pre-amp & compressor to calculate the delay time or should i calculate each hardware unit seperatly? Thatnks for this video colt!
Holy smokes!
Great bro!
I.
do you have to repeat this for every bit of outboard you have? also what if you have a patchbay and want to patch 2 bits of gear together. Do you have to do this for the said chain?
Question for ya. Did you move the insert routing one slot over in PT leaving 1 n 2 open ?
We Pro Tools users are masochists. We spend half our time trying to make PT work with our computers and hardware instead of making music. It's amazing how we pay so much money for a totally dated DAW with so many flaws. I started using Ableton Live 10 suite recently and surprise, surprise... everything works like a charm. Zero issues configuring it and many more features that PT will probably never have. I also tried FL and same thing, easy to configure and super stable. The only thing PT is good at these days is to scam money out of musicians and engineers.
When you do this do you have delay compensation on? No matter what number i put into the Hardware insert i/o's I can't get a printed parallel processed track to move. It stays the same amount of latency (in my case 55 samples) even after i calculate the ms and insert it in the I/O
Anyone know about NEGATIVE HW Insert Delay. When I run to outboard gear my signal comes back in about 13 ms ahead of time (to the left).
If I put 13 ms into HW insert delay it goes 13 in the wrong direction. If I try and put any negative number in I get "The delay value you entered is invalid."
I'm on ProTools 2020.11, Apogee Symphony MK II, Mac Pro 2013, macOS Mojave
me too. you find solution?
I'm going thru this right now and AVID and lynx are both like "what?" and it's pissing me offfffff
Did anyone find a solution for this?…
Did anybody figure out the being ahead ‽ The only thing that aligned it was bringing gain up or down to the out board gear .
Great video. Can you plz help me . when in I insert the physical hardware in the sends section I get no playback or signal going to the audio track that was created to print the hardware unit . Ive been stuck on this for about 3days now . Thank you
my man
So, I tried to create this problem on my system today and I have zero delay in my hardware insert just like you reported before your upgrade. I'm running pro tools 12.5.2 on a MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015) Processor (2.8 GHz Intel Core i7) with 16GB 1600 MHz DDR3 Ram. using Apollo 16 MKIIs and master clock is set to my Mytek Stereo 96 ADC. Checking on/off delay compensation has same result. Buffer switched from 64 and 1024 both no delay as well. It's like this version of pro tools and with the mac is like having an HD system. Maybe it was a software bug that let Native have the HD feature and they later put an end to it.
I'm getting the same results with the X8p/Twin X running Protools 2023.6.
1 sample of latency in a 48k session, hardware buffer set to 64, and auto delay compensation turned off(unchecked). It's weird! If it check "ignore errors during playback/record" I get 66 samples of latency. I normally don't use the "ignore errors" setting at all.
Hey Colt, we use same MAC 2013. Are you still on same? I'm running Monterey now. Just curious.
When I print the track then I play it back with my mixing chain engaged I hear strong analog noise. Is there a way to remove it? Maybe a setting? I can even hear it if I compress small or barely raise the preamp
Hey Buddy! Are you using avid HDX system or pro tools native 2019.5? Thanks
Reginald Allen I’m in the regular version of PT with an Apollo 16 MKII
👌🏾
having the same issues as we speak and it's driving me mad! When I do it like you described and flip the polarity on the second track where you put the Insert on they don't cancel out 100% so there is still phasing issues going on. Damn! Just because of this really big issue I am thinking of moving over to another DAW. I use 4 hardware inserts (4x CAPI LC EQ's with 4 compressors) with my Apollo X4 and I've had it work fine for a while but now I have these same issues again. The fact that you have to "calculate" the round trip is actually quite ridiculous. I am so used to pro tools that I'd rather not change but I want to be able to use some hardware inserts without all this hassle.
Did you find a way to get it a 100% correct in pt? If so, please share!
BW
soooo, I did it and it works... This morning I reopen this TEST project and again the compensation is fucked up... then I return the HW compensation to zero and it seems to be better with little phasing (so, inusable). This drive me crazy as hell.
Hi Colt. I hear the delay when I'm performing the recording of the click but when I go to the wave forms the are aligned correctly! What's up with that?
I'm having the same issue, did you ever figure out what the problem was?
@@jpruggieri1207 same issue here
First of all thank you. Second. I can not believe what AVID puts us all through. I am tracking guitars and at 64 buffer and L A T E N C Y... I am thinking of trashing prefs and its just a nightmare. I will be looking at all my sessions like this now. I have zero faith in avid, I have a fully loaded trashcan 12 core 64 gig with pt 11.9 ish with a digi 192 and 1 hdx card and years not being able to track guitars. So now they want us to RENT the misery. I spent 30k ish on my system and have never gotten any of the promises they made. then based on what plugins you use, we find out ONLY DSP plugins can utilize the card and those fancy waves plugs (more thousands) Do I feel ripped off? You betcha! Nice to see a guy battle like that.
These are all reasons why I use Cubase (also with an Apollo). These kinds of time-wasting issues don’t exist with Cubase. Ever. I’m always running the latest version of OSX. Zero problems. Flawless automatic delay compensation. Why PT is the “industry standard” will always remain a mystery to me.
Dennis Leeflang unfortunately it will remain the industry standard until all the major studios move to a different DAW. I fly sessions to major studios here in Nashville weekly. So while PT frustrates the hell out of me, it’s still the best option for me.
Audio industry is a joke. I run Pro Tools HDX. The worst DAW
Pro tools is rubbish cubase and nuendo with reaper and studio one universal standard
Most DAW platforms are cross compatible with each as long as they support AAF. I can littery load Protools sessions in studio one pro. Lots of Pros are using S1 that were previous PT users. 3x Grammy Mix Engineer Luca Pretolesi is using Studio One. Hitmaker Teddy Riley also uses it as well.
very good ! no compensation in pro tools ????
Hi. I try to do what you do and for me dont work. I send everything from 1-8 to a summing device and the de St from the summing device to input 1-2 to my soundcard. I have latency. I calculate and is 1024 samples. I do 1024/48. And then I put this compedation in the io you said and nothing change after this.i still with the latency
Colt is this something we need to setup for outboard effects too? Thanks!
Yes. Any outboard gear you plan to use while mixing.
@@ColtCapperrune thank you!
Does anyone have any tips on how to do this in Ableton? The delay compensation is wacky on return tracks
Try out Reaper, you will save time and make more music!!
what buffer were you on? seems like you just divide the buffer into the sample rate. (im betting it was on 1024 buffer). Don't know why PT can't just have an auto calculator script in HW insert section to auto-calculate based on the buffer and sample rate and have a manual override ability if its not working. Must be more complex than it appears or the same as first-class tickets vs coach. It's all possible, but they gotta reward the HDX users somehow.
I stopped using PT years ago. But recently when I needed to open a PT session, I get error messages - nothing opens ! What crap 💩
Hi all. I’m having the issue that once I use a HW insert the signal goes out and come back fine but the pan and fader don’t do anything anymore. I’m going out of channel 3 on my Focusrite Clarett 8preX into a Warm Audio WA73-EQ and coming back into channel 3 on the Focusrite. Signal is hitting the WA73 and coming back, EQ in the WA73 is working fine but when I pan or ride the fader in protools nothing happens. I’m using an audio track. If I bus the audio track to an AUX and put the insert on that AUX the fader on the audio track works but the aux track fader and pan still don’t work. Same with mutes and solos. Thanks for any help.
and adding any number into the HW Insert Delay in I/O does nothing. I've tried 3ms up to 3000ms. No change at all. :-(
What’s your apollo i/o routing ?
I have a Focusrite Clarett8PreX and I can't seem to get this right. It seems like the hardware comes through faster than the internal send! Is the delay compensation turned on or off during this? If anyone could please help.
@aj5542 any fix for this? I have the same issue- the analog signal comes in 4 samples AHEAD of the original DAW audio (Protools Click track)
You can just highlight the diff in the delay region look up at the counter and the length of your highlight will be calculated for you... then you just type that in...
I don't know how this is possible, mine has a very slight difference with the bus being slower than the insert...
My ad trip comes in B4 the original click what causes that
I have the same issue. It's related to the buffer size in Pro Tools. Basically your original click track recorded through the PT's Bus is delayed internally by the amount of buffer size in PT. Your track recorded through physical I/O is free from that buffer size delay and it's only affected by da/ad conversion time delay (which is in your case smaller than PT buffer size delay). unfortunately I don't know how to solve it yet. I am using Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd gen
@@TheKevbe when u do plz let me know I don't even know how to send u my email
@@TheKevbe I'm serious bro when u figure it out B4 show some love and let us know 1 love
@@keepmovinent7679 I will
I am racking my brain right now because I have done this and followed it perfectly and its not working for me..im assuming I'm doing something wrong..frustrated. I am using the Apollo 8P and I've routed my distressors through it..seems to all work but i get this delay ..I am thinking maybe im doing something wrong on the monitoring end of this where as i am hearing the channels in console and pro tools maybe... but if i mute them then they don't work...
i know its something obvious so if anyone knows id appreciate the help :-)
John Monnecka Not sure if I said this in the video, but make sure you turn off low latency monitoring in ProTools, and mute the channels from the UA consul. Hope that helps!
Try muting the insert channel on the Apollo console app that youso you don’t hear the delay. It works for me
And btw I can track guitars with a 100 dollar scarlet 2i2 with 0 latency!! Thats sick I have to track through a cheap ebay interface when I need quality. Then rip that down and import the tracked guitars and continue on with avid protools for mixing and now I have my doubts about that etc
Its so much easier to spend 60 bucks and get REAPER and kick PT out the door, I did that 2 years ago after spending over 20 years with PT, I could not stand to see how Avid has totally mismanaged Digidesign's once GREAT product. Updates are always nightmares. Switching to REAPER has been the rock solid BEST software decision of my life, best efficiency DAW created by digital audio master developer Justin Frankel the creator of WINAMP.
In my case the signal coming from the physical output is earlier than the signal coming from the Pro Tools's Bus. Why is that?
That´s my case too, I would like to know
@@crf5118 Me too...Can't figure it out to save my life...
@@realgearonline8279 Hey buddy, I think I figured this out xD Go to Setup -> Playback engine -> TURN ON "Ignore Errors During Playback/Record...bla bla"
Next do your test measurements and keep delay compensation ENABLED, and low latency monitoring DISABLED. After that your audio AFTER the H/W insert will be behind the audio in DAW. When you are done with your test you still need to keep "Ignore Errors During Playback/Record" setting in order to keep H/W insert delay values.
Hi, I have using pro tools since 9... to 10 to 11 , when switched to 11 I noticed the latency problems... never more used pro tools and hardware like I did before... its frustrating
Why not just invert the phase of one of the click tracks so they cancel out so you can be 110% accurate that its sample accurate? I've found that it still never fully cancels its self out no matter how close I get..
Great video though! Thanks!
@@acrylicrecording It'll never nulls completely since the A/D D/A roundtrip will affect the purity of the signal :).
It will never null completely due to frequency dependent phase shift, and inter-sample latency. The only way to properly do parallel processing with outboard is to also do a direct loopback channel for the dry track on extra I/O. This way the dry and wet tracks are both going through the same converters and have the same delay. It eliminates comb filtering, which may or may not be noticable.
CAN U JUST GIVE US THE SESSION SO WE CAN DO IT
CAUSE IDK WHAT IO U HAVE SETUP BUT MY SHIT AINT THE SAME AND IVE BEEN TRYING TO FIX MY SHIT FOR DAYS AND STILL HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO DO IT
I know this is an older video, but why do you use pro tools?. I was looking to purchase the software, but I was amaze they have a limit of 32 audio channels.
Limited to 32 I/O channels... there are no virtual limitations on audio tracks
@@sacstudiosargentina Standard Pro Tools has 128 audio tracks limit
I still can't get my shit to work.... I also have an Apollo and PT 2021
Good god man, are I/O presets not working for you in UA's Console application? I've never had to do this with logic or pro tools. If you put the Apollo 16 into PT mode, it automagically compensates.
Have had my Apollo n PT mode & has worked flawless w/ HW inserts or on bus to an Aux send until recently. Same version of PT I have always used. I had my preferences set to NOT change my I/O when opening / importing other sessions for mixing, have my first two inputs null etc. Idky this started happening, very frustrating. I used the click track method using samples and was getting different sample delays each time smh...
pro tools is so intuitive lol
Pro Tools : Pain in the ass
Studio One : Pipeline XT
Good lord this is crazy. May just go back to Logic
Logic Pro X!...🤔🤓
I find it strange that you have to spend so much money on an industry standard and you have so much issues and on a mac also. I use a pc nuendo and propellerhead reason with Motu avb no issues which means i have to be wrong
This is how they justify charging you thousands of dollars for an HD rig.
I’m currently strongly considering going back to an HD rig
I listened two times to be sure I heard wat uh were saying. N it seems that u just experienced a Mandela effect. U were doing something in a certain way for 10 years n suddenly not only does it not work that way with ur new Mojave n pro tools set up, it never has worked that way. But yet u were doing it that way. Until u find out that that way of doing it doesn't work n never has. That's Mandela effect. Just saying