Ermes is even better example, he was almost as skinny as Irakli yet managed to balloon up to 130KG at his peak :DD. And Levan from 80KG to 180KG is the craziest.
@RobVigeantRVJ I'm with you and Travis.. The steroid abuse is getting out of control. I don't blame guys who don't want to juice themselves up to crazy life threatening levels.
@@outlawgt3045 Travis sorta accepts it as part of the game though. I've heard Travis make the argument before that while steroids might have some negative effect on your health, how many other things that you're doing do? Do you have a perfect diet? Do you eat perfectly healthy food that is good for your body? Do you abstain from alcohol and drugs? That was the argument I saw one time from Travis. He grouped it in and compared it to other vices.
Look at old Levan videos and Gasparini!!! All blew up and not from just hard work every pro arm wrestler works hard. Sorry but im in favor of testing very strict testing!! Every two weeks until the match
When I was heavy into powerlifting especially bench press, I would only run test like I do now but for one of my meets I took anadrol for the week leading up to a meet and my bench went from a 529lb bench the previous meet to a 540lb bench and I probably had 10-20lbs in the tank, and the meets were maybe a month and a half apart from each other, that shit does happen
All of rvj’s examples are to prove the extra ridiculous body transformation and strength gains are from the magical gear tree. He is not talking about guys that still grow a reasonable amount in their early 20’s. Do you think Bowen would have beat you without the stack he was on? Not a chance 😉
I can barely recognize him here o.0 . The effects it has on people are undeniable. I think people get too invested in their 'celebrity of choice' and choose not to see, and or ignore it. Thanks for the interview snippts and table video. helped to understand.
when you go from 75 kg to 90-95 of course you look different he probably was also 7-8 yrs younger there nobody says irakli is natural but he still would look different with 20 kg difference even if he was natural
The people in here that think 70+ pounds lean gain in a few years can be done naturally are dumb. Take a look at Ermes before and after roids. Also Levan. He literally almost doubled his bodyweight. The facts are if none of the top guys took juice. They would be significantly smaller and weaker. The issue with abusing steroids to the degrees that go on in armwrestling is it kills the sport for anyone that wants to remain natural. You have to be willing to significantly shorten your lifespan with steroids in order to compete at the elite level. Also, it's always the people who don't even lift that defend juicers. Anyone that's spent a decent amount of time in the gym will know what's achievable and isn't naturally.
That’s pretty accurate. I’ve exercised my whole life. My ex used to ask me if I thought certain celebrities were natural. I laughed at most of her questions, because she had no idea what drugs could do. She’d ask me about guys like the Rock for example. For most of us, we know you’re not gaining that level of muscle mass naturally at that age. I’m happy with what I can do without PEDs. Do I sometimes wonder what I could have accomplished with them? Sure. But I also feel like I couldn’t be proud of the strength I’ve gained.
didn't know this was even up for debate, if it didn't work ppl wouldn't use it. the past 10 years the discussion about PED's has become pretty open...ppl will flat out tell you what does what.
@@deathdragon7934Absolutly right. I know from fact that last year at WAF worlds, the armwrestling president of my country asked the guy in charge of testing to test Nifontov since it was obvious that he was hard juicing and the guy said no I don't want to. But instead, they tested some german that looked completly normal, a muslim woman with hija and so on... well people that don't look juiced at all (they need less than 5% of positive in testing to be able to candidate for the olympics). The reason behind that is that these guys come from countries like Georgia, Kazakhstan etc... and those countries bring a lot of athletes at the tournament and since every athlete has to pay his fee to participate, they have that power towards the WAF presidency. You control my athletes, we don't come and you lose a lot of money in return. WAF is beyond corrupted and it's not going to change very soon sadly...
@@deathdragon7934 WAF only tests around competition. Tests for individual country is done by the arm wrestling union of THAT country. Some countries test actively under WADA and some countries don't test at all. Everyone on competition day will be clean because WADA will test top WAF competitors, but they can take whatever they want for the rest 50 weeks of a year if their country doesn't do the testing correctly. In Finland there were hundreds of tests done to track and field during practice season while in Jamaika back in 2012 there were 2. That is the difference what countries do
I think the biggest example is ermes lol ermes used to be a skinny little guy. Now he’s as wide and big as levan lol irakli is still lean. Ermes is absolutely huge now.
Actually, with HGH, your hands do grow… I’ve seen guys here in the states whose hands changed dramatically… And also big hands don’t make strong hands… There’s plenty of examples of guys with smaller handsbeing hand dominant
Random bros in gym are on drugs, it's just insane. People dont even know how normal humans look anymore. On social media you see everywhere muscles off the charts and its the new norm as sad as it is. Let alone competitive sport. I tried to grow my bicep clean 1cm and it took me ages. Society will not grind today, they want fast results with minimal effort
You're right and wrong, it's the genetics of a hyper responder like Larry that could respond to tren that fast, a regular man couldn't do that, he couldn't make gains like that in a short amount of time, but yes drugs make a difference
Truth!! Maybe Daniel does take them but does not respond as well . I had two best friends that took them over the summer when they were about 18 one got huge in 4 months and the other one you couldn't tell took anything
But the point is that the result was still from the drug use so maybe some guys take it and don’t get the same result, but that motherfucker got the result from the drug. It doesn’t matter if they’re responder or not with no drug they’ll be no result. People say Levon is a hyper responder… That doesn’t change the fact that he is where he is because he responded to the drugs… Meaning no drugs no response
Not gains like that, but gains that are still outside of their natural limit, how tiny they may be. One doesn’t have to become the strongest of the world before we can call them a cheater or whatever.
I almost didn't recognize Irakli 😳 just after high school I hit a growth spurt and was almost 6'7 around 160lbs. Was due to genetics my dad was short but really skinny. And at that time alot of "coke" products unfortunately lol so I rarely ate anything. but after I got off that stuff. I stayed that weight for a few years slowly packing on a pound here and there despite drinking shakes trying to gain weight. Finally around 30yrs old I guess my metabolism slowed down and was able to jump up to 290lbs fairly quickly. Now my walking around weight just eating average stuff is around 230 ish. So yea it's possible for tall guys to weight very little lol
After watching these videos, i'm starting to think that Rob doesn't really know what happens even naturally when you are tall and skinny and start doing more bodybuilding leaning work for years like Irakli does. Rob has super genetics among normal people and that blinds him about what other people go through. You don't stay 75kg while being 185cm tall forever if you train consistently for mass, drugs or not.
Not true… I been around gyms and athletes for decades… I also educate myself. I know what lean mass gains naturally look like and at what pace. Plus not all builds are equal… a guy at his height could cap out genetically at that height while another 100 lbs more… many factors. I just don’t think that Irakli is the latter
You can tell mostly by just looking at certain arm wrestlers who juices and who doesn't. What's really funny is how many guys will shoot loads and loads of test and steroids and insulin into their bodies, but run away from vaccinations like they're the plague. Steroids, and the like, are illegal, at least in the US, for a reason. I applaud your efforts, RVJ, for spreading the truth and not misinformation. Storm is another guy that shows you that you can be competitive against the juiced up guys while being natural. He's always fun to practice with.
@@RobVigeantRVJlarry was peaked for this attempt he was peaking for more than 8 weeks, he took the tren to give him an edge But overall yes, drugs work otherwise people would have not take them
@@RobVigeantRVJ Yeah 10% from 3 days of TREN is absolutely insane especially when you're already doing higher weights, that % means a lot more. Normally increasing weight gets harder and slower, a 10% off big weight. I imagine the % "could" even be higher on lower, if not then wtf. This shit is ridiculous.
Do you think their will be tested professional leagues in the future or do you think things are going to continue to be the same. Cause Im a young guy and I love armwrestling but i dont think i would want to sacrifice my health to the extent of others
Thanks RVJ!! All the juice heads are just rationalizing their usage! They obviously know they wouldn’t be able to do anything naturally unless they are complete idiots! Same as drug addicts rationalize their usage, oh this hurts, that hurts, life sucks Waaaa! Booo hooo!! You know the deal and seem to be one of the few who are honest about it! Refreshing, I wish more would be at least honest about it and themselves!
the drug abuse is insane. even with just creatine monohydrate i get around 20lbs of gains i couldn't imagine what would happen with the other stuff these guys are on
People dont realize the amount of years they take off their life for a little bit of an edge. There's always 2 roads in life, the easy way, the hard way. Make ur choice
There is a study where they tested guys (i think) bench press max. They had 4 groups in the study. 1 control group did nothing 2 exercise only group 3 testosterone only 4 testosterone + excercise So the excercise groups trained the lift they were testing and to no ones surprise, the group that trained and were given testosterone, made the biggest strength increase. The surprising parts was that the NO Training + testosterone group made a bigger strength increase than the group that trained without drugs.
This is completely false and debunked several times, also it wasn't for bench max but muscle growth so this post is already a lie. You people who read this comment should check the actual study that also explains that while some of the people who didn't exercise got muscle increase means they could have done something outside gym while on test. Like heavy work etc. that wasn't supervised. I can assure you if you are on the couch and take test, you won't get any muscle. Those who went to gym and took test, Oh boy, they can have 10years natural progress in 1 year
@@ohris7610 well, explain the fact that they give tren to cattle to bulk them up for sale without the cattle doing resistance training, I mean we don’t see fuckin cows in the barn bench pressing the hay bails to put on that muscle, right? Drugs alone will get you bigger and stronger even without training, but training plus drugs will skyrocket it
Rob, even tho I agree with your take on PED's, here is the paradox; as soon as the "playground is evened" by banning PED's and testing, the ones who will get the advantage will be those that can play the system and know how to avoid testing positive. Let's take UFC for example, they have testing, yet to quote Nate Diaz "everyone is on steroids". Another hilarious example is the Strongman competition where they are supposedly tested, yet we all know the truth. Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast in strength/ combat sports.
If I’m an after thought what the fuck are you ?!?😂… a never a second thought 🤣🤣🤣 I still walk into biggest promotions any time I want… you just watch like a peeping Tom
@RobVigeantRVJ he's right though nobody really cares about you anymore honestly lol. You're at the level of Ryan bowen for crying out loud nowadays you shouldn't be complaining about other people lol😂
But I still walk onto the biggest stages without question paid for so apparently the people paying care so again you all are wrong. I’m cool with you having your fantasies and little club but the fact that I get these cards at any time says somebody cares … but you can remind me of all you guys accolades all together
How does it hinder the growth of the sport? The bigger and stronger the athletes the more attention the sport will recieve. Them taking steroids does not negatively impact popularity of the sport on the contrary it makes aw more popular because most people that watch armwrestling nowadays arent even that interested in the armwrestling itself thats why the sport will never be mainstream because very few people are actually interested in the sport itself and not just seeing popular social media guys like Devon or monsters like Levan. There is not really a problem that the elite is taking peds because anyone interested in aw can still have fun at their local club and tournaments and those who want to be at the top will always take peds even if it is prohibited they will always find a way.
@@leonardomodes1007 I was saying it hindered the growth of the sport because, like Rob has said previously, Nike isn’t going to put a shirt on levan and plaster his face all over their product. Why does the top level have to be guys that take PEDs. We could still have an elite tier with natural guys. Not everyone could make elite level with or with out gear. Local people would still have fun at events and elites would still be doing the same as they are now.
@@williamoatman361 Nike is keeping a list of nattys and only does commercials/sponsorships with them or what? I thought its more about whos the most popular (or best, which as an approximitation for popular).
@@williamoatman361 no nobody wants to watch that . look at strongman nobody cares we only want to watch monsters compete . the problem is armwrestling is a not that popular . it used to be on TV . when it was on ESPN it was much more popular but the kings move ruined it .
@@williamoatman361 We have had WAF for 40 years before these full drugged events took place and there were no sponsors for athletes ever. Now there is so it actually is getting better. For sure Nike won't promote them, but suppliment companies will
No, considering Iraqi didn’t have newbie gains. He had clearly been working out for sometime as he was on the world stage for a while by then. The same 10 pound weight range for over 20 years now … only once I sat around with Covid and doing little for years that I jump out of that range… But only by about 20 pounds not a lean 70 or 80
If drugs aren’t a reason you might improve beyond your normal skill set, why are those guys taking them knowing the potential (but likely) health risks? Makes no sense.
I'm confused though. I'm not saying they don't make a big difference. They make a big difference that's why most of the fans support the athletes taking them lol
This isn't super relevant to the point you were making in the video, but I feel like Irakli really struggled there because he focuses almost entirely on maintaining his bicep angle and doesn't try to dig in with his shoulder. For a similar reason, Irakli lost to Todd Hutchings. When you put a shoulder lock against incredibly strong biceps, if the shoulder lock can get the stop, eventually the biceps are going to get tired.
Larry lied, exaggerated and understated so many times about his PED use and his weight gain and loss, he was even exposed for it dozens of times and people made memes about him (he did this and that on TRT). Nothing Larry says should be taken at face value.
But I’ve seen similar results with my own eyes from guys on first cycle of weak shit. I’m just using Larry as an example. However… I don’t see the angle in him crediting his strength to tren..,
Of course. This is just shedding light as many guys think they don’t exist much but wonder why a guy blows them away when last event they were winning easy
Larry is probably a bit mistaken. He pushed the envelope for years. Those 3 days of tren just helped reveal all the potential he built from a decade of gear use. Good training and genetics too but obviously a strong role.
All you have to do is show a before and after of Levon... he also has one of the world's strongest men in his corner the "GEORGIAN BULL." What are the odds of that LOL... Oh, wait... Irakli hangs out with those guys too. 🤣
Irakli is 225lbs at 6'3, if you think that isn't achievable naturally than I don't know what to tell you... You do realise people can eat more? Ever heard of calories? At your prime you are bigger and freakier than Irakli but we aren't accusing you of steroids, just because we believe your word of mouth. But because Irakli started eating more and gained mass, we have to accuse him of steroids, because getting bigger naturally doesn't exist? Everyone who gets bigger must be using steroids, it couldn't possibly be because of eating more?
My starting point as a teenager was never like his starting point and I always had a huge appetite and worked heavy construction and lifted heavy… so yeah, maybe evolution left me behind.
what a pointless strawman argument, If you have watched Irakli's career you already know he was juicing. This isn't some hypothetical on did he or not. The time frame of his gains and other "side effects" his body had during the gains make it obvious to anyone who has been around ped's. Can a 6'3" guy naturally be 225. of course he can. Can Irakli put on 70lbs of lean muscle mass in the time frame he did clean. No it is physically impossible, he put on lean muscle mass at a rate most pro bodybuilders would be jealous of.
@@RobVigeantRVJ No. It is silly to think that everybody can just take some peds and become the next Rank 1 arm wrestler or whatever. There are genetic limits for everybody, different forms of responds to external testosterone and so on. Check out olypmic weightlifting, testing for peds will do nothing for this sport nor do peds take away from the work people put in to become the best. Give armwrestling more money, viewers and audience and being enchanced will become even more prominent. Armwrestling is not tested and should not be, because that comes with a whole new minefield of problems.
And that’s all dandy.., so I give credit to the juice, not the athlete or work ethic. If it was work ethic they woulda worked through the plateaus and slumps.., but they didn’t. Let them pick up injuries, up snd downs… plateaus.., the gear trumps as ll that. Easy to work when everyday is Superman day. They all make ground they never would without it. If it goes nowhere then fine… but I’ll shed light for the people on the reality and the difference they make
Taking a massive amount of steroids will get you over your frame range, thats why a 60yo Brzenk pretty much almost beat Irakli, in the open weight category I gotta admit its hard to keep with the guys in big gear but in weight classes you see a lot of natty guy in the top 5
You are probably right, but at least it can be in the conversation to shed light as to why there is gain and result. I mean, how many times have we talked about pronation and bicep curls yet? I see a fucking video about that every day from somebody.
@@ToddOleg what about strength of character? A lot of these guys would’ve quit once they plateau because of the frustration of being stuck in the plateau and aches and pains in recovery. Hitting a pr every day makes everyone excited to train … what if they tried doing it the hard way. Like a fucking serial bank robber telling people how easy it is to make money when some other motherfucker out there is working a 9 to 5 in the grind
I offered to start a tested league and not one person raise their hand lol I could tell it’s an uphill battle maybe even a losing one but it’s still worth a discussion. I’ve got quite the hit list against elite pullers. it doesn’t change the fact that I can shed light on it . You are the people who called excuse where this video shows exactly the difference it makes. Maybe it’s not an excuse and more of the contributing factor. I’ll stack my wins losses column against anybody
I did it. Been there done that. Rob is trying not to hurt feelings here! Trust me. Stuff will make you the Hulk! and when you come off it all you become mini mouse for life!!
What did your arms measure at 30? Have you hit your genetic limit? Do you believe in such a thing, or is there more growth and strength available to you?
I believe with my path there is more to come… But that’s cause I’ve been limited with being able to work out and do things properly for years at a time
@@RobVigeantRVJ It’s impressive you’re able to maintain your level of strength despite the ebbs and flows of training and taking time off. Speaks to an often unspoken benefit of natural training. Shit tends to stay once built.
Props Rob for having the nads to tell the truth. I love watching arm wrestling but let's face it, 90% are cheating by using gear. I bet you kick Devon's ass if you were juicing!
He was way younger. People can look massively different in a few years, from working out more. Not everyone with big biceps is on steroids. Some people don't even have the capacity to grow big muscles, or train for it because of their style. Spend 3-4 years training your biceps hard every week and show the results. Also big does not mean strong. Strongman competitors dont have the biggest biceps or overall muscles but they are strength athletes, same goes for arm wrestling i would say.
someone is on copium. Do yourself a favor and research how much lean muscle mass someone can gain through exercise and diet in a year. (hint top bodybuilders on juice max out at around 10lbs/yr of lean muscle mass)
Your right using juice is a huge advantage. But RVJ that’s the time we are living in and sadly as technology grows so will the drugs and that leads to even bigger and stronger people. It never going to change because there’s to much money in muscle
@@RobVigeantRVJ what I am saying is muscle sells, look at football, wrestling, powerlifting, bodybuilding, ufc all these leagues have steroid usage some more than others but they all have it and they are still growing like crazy. So I honestly don’t know what or if there will ever be a solution to this issue.
I don’t know the problem is every single one of those leagues have rules against it and guys that have been suspended… So it can’t be in your face as much as armwrestling. Personally, I’m not seeing the growth everyone else is…
There should absolutely be a natty league. Hypothetically, if steroids were improved so that there were all of the benefits and NO side effects, and affordable like any other supplement, would it still be cheating?
Ummm yes it is lol. 70 lean lbs in that time is a lot… considering he was world level in his class at this time and newbie gains probably long gone. Plus he was in that 230 range a few years back.., so like 5 years. Why guys like me not gain 80 lbs… or more like all these guys? Why Janis same weight whole career but trains hard. I know guys with smaller structures than me gain over 100 lbs.
Let’s call it what it is and not tip toe. If he was a natty he’d not be any near where he is… nowhere near. In this video he’s less than mindaugus. Why mindaugus not gaining all that mass ???
@@RobVigeantRVJ they are not gaining weight because they don't eat more lol. Why? I don't know, maybe they have too fast metabolism and it's hard for them to gain weight, maybe it's expensive to pay for food, maybe they think they won't be competitive at higher weight and they choose to stay where they are... It's not even connected to PED usage, gaining weight is simply due to calorie surplus, PEDs will just help to gain more lean mass and less fat I'm not saying he's not on gear but gaining 20-25 kg in 5 years is doable even while being natural if you are lighter guy like Irakli, especially if your life revolves around training and having a perfect diet
The fact is, steroids are an ugly truth that fanboys have normalized in arm wrestling. People get bothered when it gets called out. I mean, come on, how does a 48 year old gain so much after a lifetime of arm wrestling between when he beat MMT at KOTT and his second attempt at Levan? That is some insane juice going in. Don’t want to crap on Devon because like 98% of the elite pros are on it, but come on, don’t get bothered by people stating the obvious.
Arm wrestling desperately needs larger events separated by drug testing. Otherwise it’s going to hold the sport back because you’ll have a lot of talented, natural athletes who feel like the only way to progress into elite territory is by blasting drugs. Not everyone wants to put their health on the line like that, but they also want to be competitive. You can’t expect someone like that to hop on steroids for the sake of arm wrestling. It’s ridiculous.
I can already see the natty dad bod arm wrestlers saying to themselves, " man the reason im not John Brzenk is beacuse i didnt do Tren for 3 days" lmfao
You are really running wild with the three days… The very simplistic point of it was the only real thing that changed with a very experienced lifter was what they decided to start running… so gear is the reason for the gain… the timeline is pointless
And nobody has the illusion that everybody can start taking gear and become world number one they will make you a super rockstar version an exaggerated version of yourself and it is possible for a guy to do 20 years of gear and not be as strong as somebody else naturally… but that’s not the point… It makes you how much much much bigger better stronger version than you’d ever be attainable naturally where that puts you on the spectrum with all the other people is meaningless.
Ermes is even better example, he was almost as skinny as Irakli yet managed to balloon up to 130KG at his peak :DD. And Levan from 80KG to 180KG is the craziest.
You guys would be shocked at some of the hundred pound gains I’ve seen in the game… There’s a lot of them
@RobVigeantRVJ I'm with you and Travis.. The steroid abuse is getting out of control. I don't blame guys who don't want to juice themselves up to crazy life threatening levels.
Look at Levan...his before and after is shocking to say the least
@@outlawgt3045 Travis sorta accepts it as part of the game though. I've heard Travis make the argument before that while steroids might have some negative effect on your health, how many other things that you're doing do? Do you have a perfect diet? Do you eat perfectly healthy food that is good for your body? Do you abstain from alcohol and drugs? That was the argument I saw one time from Travis. He grouped it in and compared it to other vices.
Checkmate... Cheers brother
I can't believe how small Irakli looked. The only way I could tell it was him is because he arm wrestles the exact same way.
Look at old Levan videos and Gasparini!!! All blew up and not from just hard work every pro arm wrestler works hard. Sorry but im in favor of testing very strict testing!! Every two weeks until the match
@@jmangames5562 wrong sport maybe cricket but even they get caught .you might like minor league baseball or softball
When I was heavy into powerlifting especially bench press, I would only run test like I do now but for one of my meets I took anadrol for the week leading up to a meet and my bench went from a 529lb bench the previous meet to a 540lb bench and I probably had 10-20lbs in the tank, and the meets were maybe a month and a half apart from each other, that shit does happen
Thank you… I appreciate the data
Not to say Irakli is natty or anything crazy, but you’re also looking at an 18-20 year old. Most athletes continue to grow into their 20s.
All of rvj’s examples are to prove the extra ridiculous body transformation and strength gains are from the magical gear tree. He is not talking about guys that still grow a reasonable amount in their early 20’s. Do you think Bowen would have beat you without the stack he was on? Not a chance 😉
Rvj got bigger too since he started, guess he’s on roids
Are you natty?
I can barely recognize him here o.0 . The effects it has on people are undeniable. I think people get too invested in their 'celebrity of choice' and choose not to see, and or ignore it. Thanks for the interview snippts and table video. helped to understand.
when you go from 75 kg to 90-95 of course you look different he probably was also 7-8 yrs younger there
nobody says irakli is natural but he still would look different with 20 kg difference even if he was natural
The people in here that think 70+ pounds lean gain in a few years can be done naturally are dumb. Take a look at Ermes before and after roids. Also Levan. He literally almost doubled his bodyweight. The facts are if none of the top guys took juice. They would be significantly smaller and weaker. The issue with abusing steroids to the degrees that go on in armwrestling is it kills the sport for anyone that wants to remain natural. You have to be willing to significantly shorten your lifespan with steroids in order to compete at the elite level. Also, it's always the people who don't even lift that defend juicers. Anyone that's spent a decent amount of time in the gym will know what's achievable and isn't naturally.
That’s pretty accurate. I’ve exercised my whole life. My ex used to ask me if I thought certain celebrities were natural. I laughed at most of her questions, because she had no idea what drugs could do. She’d ask me about guys like the Rock for example. For most of us, we know you’re not gaining that level of muscle mass naturally at that age. I’m happy with what I can do without PEDs. Do I sometimes wonder what I could have accomplished with them? Sure. But I also feel like I couldn’t be proud of the strength I’ve gained.
Undeniable points, brother.
My god that yell from Daniel lmao
Blasemphy
That's the main aspect of his game he needs to work on. Lmao!
Irakli doesn’t even look like the same human
Its called eating and maturing. It happens to everyone.
With some gear as well.
@@mal6041 and yet has less mass/BMI than RVJ. Cool
Great vlog, Rob! This has always been my sentiment!
Keep preaching that natty gospel, king! ❤💪
didn't know this was even up for debate, if it didn't work ppl wouldn't use it.
the past 10 years the discussion about PED's has become pretty open...ppl will flat out tell you what does what.
Not in armwrestling.
There is a lot of misinformation and sweeping stuff under the rug
@@deathdragon7934Absolutly right. I know from fact that last year at WAF worlds, the armwrestling president of my country asked the guy in charge of testing to test Nifontov since it was obvious that he was hard juicing and the guy said no I don't want to. But instead, they tested some german that looked completly normal, a muslim woman with hija and so on... well people that don't look juiced at all (they need less than 5% of positive in testing to be able to candidate for the olympics). The reason behind that is that these guys come from countries like Georgia, Kazakhstan etc... and those countries bring a lot of athletes at the tournament and since every athlete has to pay his fee to participate, they have that power towards the WAF presidency. You control my athletes, we don't come and you lose a lot of money in return.
WAF is beyond corrupted and it's not going to change very soon sadly...
@@deathdragon7934 WAF only tests around competition. Tests for individual country is done by the arm wrestling union of THAT country. Some countries test actively under WADA and some countries don't test at all. Everyone on competition day will be clean because WADA will test top WAF competitors, but they can take whatever they want for the rest 50 weeks of a year if their country doesn't do the testing correctly. In Finland there were hundreds of tests done to track and field during practice season while in Jamaika back in 2012 there were 2. That is the difference what countries do
@@deathdragon7934 lol, Levan put on like 100lbs while he was still in WAF, they’re dodgy as fk
@@Baize86are you saying Usain Bolts country let him juice?
I think the biggest example is ermes lol ermes used to be a skinny little guy. Now he’s as wide and big as levan lol irakli is still lean. Ermes is absolutely huge now.
Levans about the same went from 80kg to 180kg n left humanity behind
Yeah same with Ermes. He used to be much, much lighter, and now he's top 5 in the world as a super heavyweight
yes but your hand isn't going to grow with you. Ermes has very small hands for his weight
Actually, with HGH, your hands do grow… I’ve seen guys here in the states whose hands changed dramatically… And also big hands don’t make strong hands… There’s plenty of examples of guys with smaller handsbeing hand dominant
@@RobVigeantRVJ The bones can thicken with HGH as i understand it, but not lengthen very much. Cyplenkov....
@@dixonnass2443 One of my friends outgrew his shoes on HGH. He was 29 years old at the time...
But you don’t need length and now that these guys can just go to the straps it takes a lot of that away.
Word👍🏻
Great Video as usual R
Rob !!
I’d be willing to pay a little extra on entry fees if the event was legit testing competitors
Random bros in gym are on drugs, it's just insane. People dont even know how normal humans look anymore. On social media you see everywhere muscles off the charts and its the new norm as sad as it is. Let alone competitive sport. I tried to grow my bicep clean 1cm and it took me ages. Society will not grind today, they want fast results with minimal effort
AMEN BUDDY 🙏🏻
Very true
100% Rob. If they didn't make a difference, no one would take them.
PED's definitely work....
What an informative video, real ground breaking stuff.
You're right and wrong, it's the genetics of a hyper responder like Larry that could respond to tren that fast, a regular man couldn't do that, he couldn't make gains like that in a short amount of time, but yes drugs make a difference
Doesn’t change the fact that a drug alone made him leaps and bounds stronger.
And we don’t know who responds to what without same parameters.
Truth!! Maybe Daniel does take them but does not respond as well . I had two best friends that took them over the summer when they were about 18 one got huge in 4 months and the other one you couldn't tell took anything
But the point is that the result was still from the drug use so maybe some guys take it and don’t get the same result, but that motherfucker got the result from the drug. It doesn’t matter if they’re responder or not with no drug they’ll be no result.
People say Levon is a hyper responder… That doesn’t change the fact that he is where he is because he responded to the drugs… Meaning no drugs no response
Not gains like that, but gains that are still outside of their natural limit, how tiny they may be. One doesn’t have to become the strongest of the world before we can call them a cheater or whatever.
In a game or even one to 5% can take you from normal to elite imagine adding 10, 20 or 30%… be real I’ve seen even more than that
Amen
Shoutout hitman Tommy hearns him and Gerald mclellan were my favorite, both from kronk gym
I almost didn't recognize Irakli 😳 just after high school I hit a growth spurt and was almost 6'7 around 160lbs. Was due to genetics my dad was short but really skinny. And at that time alot of "coke" products unfortunately lol so I rarely ate anything. but after I got off that stuff. I stayed that weight for a few years slowly packing on a pound here and there despite drinking shakes trying to gain weight. Finally around 30yrs old I guess my metabolism slowed down and was able to jump up to 290lbs fairly quickly. Now my walking around weight just eating average stuff is around 230 ish. So yea it's possible for tall guys to weight very little lol
Dang “ DA.” TRUTH.
After watching these videos, i'm starting to think that Rob doesn't really know what happens even naturally when you are tall and skinny and start doing more bodybuilding leaning work for years like Irakli does. Rob has super genetics among normal people and that blinds him about what other people go through. You don't stay 75kg while being 185cm tall forever if you train consistently for mass, drugs or not.
Not true… I been around gyms and athletes for decades… I also educate myself.
I know what lean mass gains naturally look like and at what pace.
Plus not all builds are equal… a guy at his height could cap out genetically at that height while another 100 lbs more… many factors.
I just don’t think that Irakli is the latter
Plus… this isn’t a natural debate… let’s be real.
You’re defending steroids because you are on steroids 😂
You can tell mostly by just looking at certain arm wrestlers who juices and who doesn't. What's really funny is how many guys will shoot loads and loads of test and steroids and insulin into their bodies, but run away from vaccinations like they're the plague. Steroids, and the like, are illegal, at least in the US, for a reason. I applaud your efforts, RVJ, for spreading the truth and not misinformation. Storm is another guy that shows you that you can be competitive against the juiced up guys while being natural. He's always fun to practice with.
It’s crazy people even have this conversation, juice and no juice, it’s night and day.
Stylistically Irakli would be such a good matchup for you. Gotta push more for it.
It’ll happen.
💯
Before and way before!!!
God dayum!!!!
An acknowledgement of reality does not an excuse make.
If Dennis walked in your shoes Rob, he wouldn't look like he's fuckin 50 years old. Guys been "ridden hard, put away wet! Stay strong Rob.
This !!
Good afternoon my friend
Well to be fair not all of us squatted 225 first day at the gym at 15 years of age like Larry 😂
But that doesn’t change the fact that he got massive gains simply because of the drug he took where he started doesn’t matter
@@RobVigeantRVJlarry was peaked for this attempt he was peaking for more than 8 weeks, he took the tren to give him an edge
But overall yes, drugs work otherwise people would have not take them
@@RobVigeantRVJ Yeah 10% from 3 days of TREN is absolutely insane especially when you're already doing higher weights, that % means a lot more. Normally increasing weight gets harder and slower, a 10% off big weight. I imagine the % "could" even be higher on lower, if not then wtf. This shit is ridiculous.
Irakli looks like B.J. novak from the office
4:10 Or Sebastian Fundora who is 6 ft 6 in and compete at junior middleweight 154 lbs
🤘🍻🤘
Do you think their will be tested professional leagues in the future or do you think things are going to continue to be the same. Cause Im a young guy and I love armwrestling but i dont think i would want to sacrifice my health to the extent of others
there is barley enough money in it to have an untested league. Testing is a long long ways off.
As long as countries don't do the testing even under WADA, it's completely useless to have test in sports
Sadly I think it’ll stay the same… probably get much worse as guys seek glory and the biggest juicers are on the biggest pedestals
Thanks RVJ!! All the juice heads are just rationalizing their usage! They obviously know they wouldn’t be able to do anything naturally unless they are complete idiots! Same as drug addicts rationalize their usage, oh this hurts, that hurts, life sucks Waaaa! Booo hooo!! You know the deal and seem to be one of the few who are honest about it! Refreshing, I wish more would be at least honest about it and themselves!
Daniel still looks exactly the same. Irakli is unrecognizable.
the drug abuse is insane. even with just creatine monohydrate i get around 20lbs of gains i couldn't imagine what would happen with the other stuff these guys are on
The normalization of the abuse of anabolic substances needs to stop. It is drug abuse, plain and simple.
👍🏻👏🏻
Wow. All the Georgians are juiced big-time. Proud to see Daniel lookin roughly the same.
These soviet umbrella countries have state sponsored doping program,
and they are dominating strength sports right now.
People dont realize the amount of years they take off their life for a little bit of an edge. There's always 2 roads in life, the easy way, the hard way. Make ur choice
Keep looking at my baby monitor listening to this video lol.
Yessir… part of the authenticity.
There is a study where they tested guys (i think) bench press max. They had 4 groups in the study.
1 control group did nothing
2 exercise only group
3 testosterone only
4 testosterone + excercise
So the excercise groups trained the lift they were testing and to no ones surprise, the group that trained and were given testosterone, made the biggest strength increase.
The surprising parts was that the NO Training + testosterone group made a bigger strength increase than the group that trained without drugs.
But people will say that you can’t use steroid excuse… then there are studies like this
This is completely false and debunked several times, also it wasn't for bench max but muscle growth so this post is already a lie. You people who read this comment should check the actual study that also explains that while some of the people who didn't exercise got muscle increase means they could have done something outside gym while on test. Like heavy work etc. that wasn't supervised. I can assure you if you are on the couch and take test, you won't get any muscle. Those who went to gym and took test, Oh boy, they can have 10years natural progress in 1 year
@@ohris7610 well, explain the fact that they give tren to cattle to bulk them up for sale without the cattle doing resistance training, I mean we don’t see fuckin cows in the barn bench pressing the hay bails to put on that muscle, right?
Drugs alone will get you bigger and stronger even without training, but training plus drugs will skyrocket it
Rob, even tho I agree with your take on PED's, here is the paradox; as soon as the "playground is evened" by banning PED's and testing, the ones who will get the advantage will be those that can play the system and know how to avoid testing positive. Let's take UFC for example, they have testing, yet to quote Nate Diaz "everyone is on steroids". Another hilarious example is the Strongman competition where they are supposedly tested, yet we all know the truth. Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast in strength/ combat sports.
This dude is out here still complaining about people lol. No wonder you're an afterthought 😂
If I’m an after thought what the fuck are you ?!?😂… a never a second thought 🤣🤣🤣
I still walk into biggest promotions any time I want… you just watch like a peeping Tom
@RobVigeantRVJ he's right though nobody really cares about you anymore honestly lol. You're at the level of Ryan bowen for crying out loud nowadays you shouldn't be complaining about other people lol😂
@@JakeTheSnake222truth lol
But I still walk onto the biggest stages without question paid for so apparently the people paying care so again you all are wrong.
I’m cool with you having your fantasies and little club but the fact that I get these cards at any time says somebody cares … but you can remind me of all you guys accolades all together
lol… losers club sticking together
You're not wrong Rob!!! you get so many of these deluded people saying it doesn't make a huge difference or it only helps recovery LOL
irakli is 190 cm and procopciuc probavly under 170 cm of course irakli has more room to get bigger and stronger with or without steroids
I would love a natty league.
So true. It’s starting to get ridiculous hearing about all the steroid usage. We can’t grow as a sport when all the “top guys” are juiced up so bad
How does it hinder the growth of the sport? The bigger and stronger the athletes the more attention the sport will recieve. Them taking steroids does not negatively impact popularity of the sport on the contrary it makes aw more popular because most people that watch armwrestling nowadays arent even that interested in the armwrestling itself thats why the sport will never be mainstream because very few people are actually interested in the sport itself and not just seeing popular social media guys like Devon or monsters like Levan. There is not really a problem that the elite is taking peds because anyone interested in aw can still have fun at their local club and tournaments and those who want to be at the top will always take peds even if it is prohibited they will always find a way.
@@leonardomodes1007 I was saying it hindered the growth of the sport because, like Rob has said previously, Nike isn’t going to put a shirt on levan and plaster his face all over their product. Why does the top level have to be guys that take PEDs. We could still have an elite tier with natural guys. Not everyone could make elite level with or with out gear. Local people would still have fun at events and elites would still be doing the same as they are now.
@@williamoatman361 Nike is keeping a list of nattys and only does commercials/sponsorships with them or what? I thought its more about whos the most popular (or best, which as an approximitation for popular).
@@williamoatman361 no nobody wants to watch that . look at strongman nobody cares we only want to watch monsters compete . the problem is armwrestling is a not that popular . it used to be on TV . when it was on ESPN it was much more popular but the kings move ruined it .
@@williamoatman361 We have had WAF for 40 years before these full drugged events took place and there were no sponsors for athletes ever. Now there is so it actually is getting better. For sure Nike won't promote them, but suppliment companies will
Compare yourself in school and now I think it's gonna be the same as Irakli
No, considering Iraqi didn’t have newbie gains. He had clearly been working out for sometime as he was on the world stage for a while by then.
The same 10 pound weight range for over 20 years now … only once I sat around with Covid and doing little for years that I jump out of that range… But only by about 20 pounds not a lean 70 or 80
Forget roid rage, roid cope is worst side-effect.
If drugs aren’t a reason you might improve beyond your normal skill set, why are those guys taking them knowing the potential (but likely) health risks? Makes no sense.
We'll never know who the best is. Not with all the drug use.
I'm confused though. I'm not saying they don't make a big difference. They make a big difference that's why most of the fans support the athletes taking them lol
Thats also why we have weight classes
This isn't super relevant to the point you were making in the video, but I feel like Irakli really struggled there because he focuses almost entirely on maintaining his bicep angle and doesn't try to dig in with his shoulder. For a similar reason, Irakli lost to Todd Hutchings. When you put a shoulder lock against incredibly strong biceps, if the shoulder lock can get the stop, eventually the biceps are going to get tired.
Some guys just don’t have the shoulder and elbow integrity to jam it
Listen to smart ppl. Don't read comments or engage. Your mental health will thank you
what are you doing here then?
@@ohris7610 reading comments...
Adam Silver new video will interest u very much.
Its on his adam bodybuilder bully channel
I watched it… 🧐
Irakli VS RVJ must happen
Larry lied, exaggerated and understated so many times about his PED use and his weight gain and loss, he was even exposed for it dozens of times and people made memes about him (he did this and that on TRT). Nothing Larry says should be taken at face value.
But I’ve seen similar results with my own eyes from guys on first cycle of weak shit.
I’m just using Larry as an example.
However… I don’t see the angle in him crediting his strength to tren..,
Hes not the same person now. My dad watched his last match with me ,and then I showed him this, and he said 'who's that '🤣
Im middle aged and just started arm wrestling... I sure could use some juice but I'm NEVER going there. seems off.
Richard Lupkes was skinny in the 70s in his 20s. He became a super heavyweight monster during the mid 80s. Steroids go way back in this sport.
Of course.
This is just shedding light as many guys think they don’t exist much but wonder why a guy blows them away when last event they were winning easy
John brzenk says steroids only make a 2% difference, so you must be overreacting 💁
lol… brzenk is not the law… he’s flat out lying.
You can always see it in the face... facial structure doesn't change much with lifting, but changes massively with steroids.
Larry is probably a bit mistaken. He pushed the envelope for years. Those 3 days of tren just helped reveal all the potential he built from a decade of gear use. Good training and genetics too but obviously a strong role.
Jesus irakli doesnt even look like the same human . And on a side note that scream from procopciuc was halarious😂
All you have to do is show a before and after of Levon... he also has one of the world's strongest men in his corner the "GEORGIAN BULL." What are the odds of that LOL... Oh, wait... Irakli hangs out with those guys too. 🤣
rob is right once again
Ride harder lmao
no drugs denis would have been almost as strong as schoolboy in 2020
There is video of Denis in his early 20's. 2020 schoolboy would have smoked him.
leonidas match is cancelled???
I have no idea about Leonidas. I never heard anything.
Irakli is 225lbs at 6'3, if you think that isn't achievable naturally than I don't know what to tell you... You do realise people can eat more? Ever heard of calories? At your prime you are bigger and freakier than Irakli but we aren't accusing you of steroids, just because we believe your word of mouth. But because Irakli started eating more and gained mass, we have to accuse him of steroids, because getting bigger naturally doesn't exist? Everyone who gets bigger must be using steroids, it couldn't possibly be because of eating more?
My starting point as a teenager was never like his starting point and I always had a huge appetite and worked heavy construction and lifted heavy… so yeah, maybe evolution left me behind.
I mean, we can all pretend like 70 pounds isn’t a big deal
what a pointless strawman argument, If you have watched Irakli's career you already know he was juicing. This isn't some hypothetical on did he or not. The time frame of his gains and other "side effects" his body had during the gains make it obvious to anyone who has been around ped's.
Can a 6'3" guy naturally be 225. of course he can. Can Irakli put on 70lbs of lean muscle mass in the time frame he did clean. No it is physically impossible, he put on lean muscle mass at a rate most pro bodybuilders would be jealous of.
Thank you 🙏🏻
RVJ just discovered peds in professional sports.
If there is a price to win, people will do whatever it takes to claim it!
That’s a silly take.
It’s a gunshot rebuttal to a lot of people saying the drugs can’t be given the credit… When it can be given a shit ton of credit
@@RobVigeantRVJ No. It is silly to think that everybody can just take some peds and become the next Rank 1 arm wrestler or whatever. There are genetic limits for everybody, different forms of responds to external testosterone and so on.
Check out olypmic weightlifting, testing for peds will do nothing for this sport nor do peds take away from the work people put in to become the best.
Give armwrestling more money, viewers and audience and being enchanced will become even more prominent.
Armwrestling is not tested and should not be, because that comes with a whole new minefield of problems.
@@RobVigeantRVJ Not it's not, it's the real take from the real world lol. People will do whatever it takes to win, including juice.
And that’s all dandy.., so I give credit to the juice, not the athlete or work ethic.
If it was work ethic they woulda worked through the plateaus and slumps.., but they didn’t.
Let them pick up injuries, up snd downs… plateaus.., the gear trumps as ll that.
Easy to work when everyday is Superman day.
They all make ground they never would without it.
If it goes nowhere then fine… but I’ll shed light for the people on the reality and the difference they make
@@RobVigeantRVJ I mean no, they often have worse injuries when it's all said and done. Just look at Ronnie now, injuries still happen.
Natty for life. 💪🏻
Taking a massive amount of steroids will get you over your frame range, thats why a 60yo Brzenk pretty much almost beat Irakli, in the open weight category I gotta admit its hard to keep with the guys in big gear but in weight classes you see a lot of natty guy in the top 5
You can build insane strength on gear and not blow up in size. There is a plethora of options, weight classes are full of people on pancake syrup.
Rob - you’re never going to lose the steroid debate. But steroids are always going to be a part of the strength debate. That’s just facts.
You are probably right, but at least it can be in the conversation to shed light as to why there is gain and result.
I mean, how many times have we talked about pronation and bicep curls yet? I see a fucking video about that every day from somebody.
@@RobVigeantRVJ you’re not wrong. People are just enamored by strength. They don’t necessarily care how it’s achieved. Sad.
@@ToddOleg what about strength of character? A lot of these guys would’ve quit once they plateau because of the frustration of being stuck in the plateau and aches and pains in recovery.
Hitting a pr every day makes everyone excited to train … what if they tried doing it the hard way.
Like a fucking serial bank robber telling people how easy it is to make money when some other motherfucker out there is working a 9 to 5 in the grind
@@RobVigeantRVJ Poetry…
Just wanna say your arms look massive. Are you on something lol only kidding but they do look massive.
Thanks
This is how Rob justifies losing to other elite pullers. I’m still waiting for him to start his tested league.
I offered to start a tested league and not one person raise their hand lol I could tell it’s an uphill battle maybe even a losing one but it’s still worth a discussion.
I’ve got quite the hit list against elite pullers.
it doesn’t change the fact that I can shed light on it .
You are the people who called excuse where this video shows exactly the difference it makes. Maybe it’s not an excuse and more of the contributing factor.
I’ll stack my wins losses column against anybody
I did it. Been there done that. Rob is trying not to hurt feelings here! Trust me.
Stuff will make you the Hulk! and when you come off it all you become mini mouse for life!!
What did your arms measure at 30? Have you hit your genetic limit? Do you believe in such a thing, or is there more growth and strength available to you?
I believe with my path there is more to come… But that’s cause I’ve been limited with being able to work out and do things properly for years at a time
@@RobVigeantRVJ
It’s impressive you’re able to maintain your level of strength despite the ebbs and flows of training and taking time off. Speaks to an often unspoken benefit of natural training. Shit tends to stay once built.
Yes… I was taught hard gains stay long term… it seemed to be true .
Tough out here for a pimp.
Props Rob for having the nads to tell the truth. I love watching arm wrestling but let's face it, 90% are cheating by using gear. I bet you kick Devon's ass if you were juicing!
Rvj sounding like a broken record
yeah. he is digging deep to proof that steroids help 🤣
Nah man… I swear it was Larry talking…
I thought it was cool from a well known guy as opposed to speculation.
Gotta comprehend the message
He was way younger. People can look massively different in a few years, from working out more. Not everyone with big biceps is on steroids. Some people don't even have the capacity to grow big muscles, or train for it because of their style. Spend 3-4 years training your biceps hard every week and show the results. Also big does not mean strong. Strongman competitors dont have the biggest biceps or overall muscles but they are strength athletes, same goes for arm wrestling i would say.
70 lean lbs??
Ummm 👌
someone is on copium. Do yourself a favor and research how much lean muscle mass someone can gain through exercise and diet in a year. (hint top bodybuilders on juice max out at around 10lbs/yr of lean muscle mass)
@@Average1212 you can stop that right now.
Your right using juice is a huge advantage. But RVJ that’s the time we are living in and sadly as technology grows so will the drugs and that leads to even bigger and stronger people. It never going to change because there’s to much money in muscle
Too much money? We have a very different idea of what too much money is.
@@RobVigeantRVJ what I am saying is muscle sells, look at football, wrestling, powerlifting, bodybuilding, ufc all these leagues have steroid usage some more than others but they all have it and they are still growing like crazy. So I honestly don’t know what or if there will ever be a solution to this issue.
I don’t know the problem is every single one of those leagues have rules against it and guys that have been suspended… So it can’t be in your face as much as armwrestling.
Personally, I’m not seeing the growth everyone else is…
Janis is also on Ivan's Ooze. I think you are the only clean one.
There should absolutely be a natty league. Hypothetically, if steroids were improved so that there were all of the benefits and NO side effects, and affordable like any other supplement, would it still be cheating?
There is tested leagues. WAF and IFA. Natural league can't ever be done, but tested can
Dude it's been 7 years since that match, it's not such a big deal to gain significant weight in that period
Ummm yes it is lol. 70 lean lbs in that time is a lot… considering he was world level in his class at this time and newbie gains probably long gone.
Plus he was in that 230 range a few years back.., so like 5 years.
Why guys like me not gain 80 lbs… or more like all these guys?
Why Janis same weight whole career but trains hard.
I know guys with smaller structures than me gain over 100 lbs.
Let’s call it what it is and not tip toe.
If he was a natty he’d not be any near where he is… nowhere near.
In this video he’s less than mindaugus.
Why mindaugus not gaining all that mass ???
@@RobVigeantRVJ they are not gaining weight because they don't eat more lol. Why? I don't know, maybe they have too fast metabolism and it's hard for them to gain weight, maybe it's expensive to pay for food, maybe they think they won't be competitive at higher weight and they choose to stay where they are... It's not even connected to PED usage, gaining weight is simply due to calorie surplus, PEDs will just help to gain more lean mass and less fat
I'm not saying he's not on gear but gaining 20-25 kg in 5 years is doable even while being natural if you are lighter guy like Irakli, especially if your life revolves around training and having a perfect diet
@@mario_2211 like I said he doesn’t have newbie gains.., With my experience, I disagree
You could have all the calorie surplus you want, but the lean muscle growth will stop at some point. You don’t just gain forever.
The fact is, steroids are an ugly truth that fanboys have normalized in arm wrestling. People get bothered when it gets called out. I mean, come on, how does a 48 year old gain so much after a lifetime of arm wrestling between when he beat MMT at KOTT and his second attempt at Levan? That is some insane juice going in. Don’t want to crap on Devon because like 98% of the elite pros are on it, but come on, don’t get bothered by people stating the obvious.
per uno che è alto 1,96 il suo peso è normale
It’s a reality that needs to be acknowledged
Well said!
Arm wrestling desperately needs larger events separated by drug testing. Otherwise it’s going to hold the sport back because you’ll have a lot of talented, natural athletes who feel like the only way to progress into elite territory is by blasting drugs. Not everyone wants to put their health on the line like that, but they also want to be competitive. You can’t expect someone like that to hop on steroids for the sake of arm wrestling. It’s ridiculous.
I can already see the natty dad bod arm wrestlers saying to themselves, " man the reason im not John Brzenk is beacuse i didnt do Tren for 3 days" lmfao
John Brzenk wouldn’t be John Brzenk for the last 20 years if he didn’t jump on the gear…
You are really running wild with the three days… The very simplistic point of it was the only real thing that changed with a very experienced lifter was what they decided to start running… so gear is the reason for the gain… the timeline is pointless
And nobody has the illusion that everybody can start taking gear and become world number one they will make you a super rockstar version an exaggerated version of yourself and it is possible for a guy to do 20 years of gear and not be as strong as somebody else naturally… but that’s not the point… It makes you how much much much bigger better stronger version than you’d ever be attainable naturally where that puts you on the spectrum with all the other people is meaningless.
@@RobVigeantRVJ I love haw many people are under the impression John was "clean" through his career.
Mike… you’re a juicer right ?
Just to be clear of your obvious bias
I’m picking up on
If PEDs doesn’t make a massive difference, why are athletes taking them? Come on peeps let’s think critically here.