God and Time in Islamic Thought: A Dialogue with Dr Ramon Harvey & Dr Ryan Mullins
Vložit
- čas přidán 16. 08. 2023
- The University of Lucerne's Online Master's in Philosophy, Theology and Religions (PhilTeR): www.unilu.ch/en/faculties/fac...
www.rtmullins.com/
Publisher page for Dr Ramon Harvey's book (including Open Access): edinburghuniversitypress.com/...
ramonharvey.com/archives/
Support Blogging Theology on Patreon:
/ bloggingtheology
My Paypal Link:
www.paypal.com/paypalme/blogg...
Mashallah. A great example of calm dialogue focused on exchanging arguments of each speaker and concepts.
Yup..
Intelligent people are always calm and poised....
I also enjoy this immensely. Mashallah they show comportment of scholars from respective religions.
this is so good, it's probably the best channel on youtube currently.
@@jabbieforthetruth8757human worship human dead is crazy😢
This was extremely engaging. I loved this format and I hope you do more of it in the future, in shaa' Allah.
Thank you brother Paul for bringing this important topic though it's difficult for lay people like us to understand until we repeated many times
One amazing thought I know from Islamic perspective is that God is not only eternal, but he is eternity. There is a very famous Hadeeth that goes like this: "Do not curse eternity as God is the eternity, and he commands day and night". Also interesting that the hadeeth used the definite article of the the word eternity.
Highly philosophical and thought provoking discussions presented is these vlogs. Even though I am highly educated (MS+) my knowledge base is science and technology. I wish I had taken few philosophy courses. It would have helped me better understand these important discussions. Please carry on the important discussions it is of great service to all.
Thank you brother. I have been thinking about this topic since last week. May Allah increase you in goodness.
Thank you Paul for sharing the wisdom! God Bless you Sir!
My sincere thanks a lot for your great guests as well..
I wasn't expecting that voice from Dr Ryan. It was a pleasant surprise😂
A matured and wise move to not call this a debate....I applaude that mashaAllah
As a Muslim, I actually agree more with Dr. Mullins than Dr. Harvey on this topic.
Mullins position is closer to ibn Taymiyyahs. Harveys position is closer to Gazzalis
Thank you brother, Paul. This was a very interesting topic, and I'd love to see both Dr. Ramon & Dr. Ryan on the channel to discuss different topics. I'd like to hear their thoughts on topics like "oneness Of God".
Short but nice and respectful debate!
Thank you Ryan and Ramon for the discussion.
Thank you Paul and guests.
Love this conversation ❤.
Sir, excellent topic
Next, we need god the uncreated being philosophical and scientific explanation. Please sir.
Really enjoyed this, hope you do more in future.
I need more on this topic.
excellent work Paul.
God is beyond our imagination. God exists in a unique way, nothing and no one is like God. God encompasses everything nothing encompasses God. All the tools at our disposal, such as rationality and logic, point to God but cannot grasp God. I think it's pointless to use concepts like applying time and space to God.
You keep impressing us Mr Williams.
You keep it up
Amazing! Amazing! MashaAllah! Beautiful presentation.
Blessings upon Jesus (peace be upon him) & Muhammad (peace be upon him). Ameen.
Verily, God is limitless and does never change nor perish,without beginning and without end
God is creator and everything besides Him is created
Hence time, place, stillness, motion are limited and changeable, they are created
Glory be to God,One and Only
Nothing comprehend Him except He Himself
Glory be to Him,nothing resembles Him
Wow, mashallah, this is a gem. I loved this style very much. All of it was very engaging.
Absolutely amazing back n forth discussion on eternity, timeless God, temporal aspects, the contingent properties, the sooner objection, and in the end, it turned out to be a great primer for scientists and engineers like us just ❤❤❤❤ed the way the forum was moderated by amazing Paul, and, the demeanor of both researchers had such a calming impact...plz pretty plz make it a series of philosophy and theology discussions...
Thank you Paul for bringing these outstanding academicians together on a very delicate topic. May Allah reward those who strive at pondering upon all kinds of creations.
I watch almost everything BT put out. With this installment I absolutely understood some of those words.
I'd love to see our brother Bassam Zawadi perhaps do or host an episode on the issue of time and temporality, seeing that he is an Athari.
إنَّ اللهَ يقولُ يُؤذِيني ابنُ آدَمَ يسُبُّ الدَّهرَ وأنا الدَّهرُ بيدي الأمرُ أُقلِّبُ اللَّيلَ والنَّهارَ
God says, "Hurt me, the son of Adam curses the age, and I am the eternal in my hands, turning the night and the day"
These are the kind of discussions and debates we'd like to hear from, not the distorion of Truth on the Media.
Thank you Gentelmen
Two great esteemed theologists. Let us enlighten with this tough session.
A whole day spent just to know/ understand some of the terms used in this discussion. A heavy topic to grasp. May Allah AJ bless us with knowledge which is beneficial.
This is way better than speakers corner
All the guys are super fascinating actually, Paul is more fascinating being able to grapple with both thoughts
The Absolute Respect, genuine curiosity and thoughtful exchange of ideas was really heart warming and extremely informative... JazakAllahu Khayran to ALL❤
Alhamdulillah this unique discussion May Allah Ta'ala bless & gives Guidience to come to the truth by this Blogging Theology Amiin🤲🏽❤
Great conversation, I also learnt about Allah and time by watching Beyond the Lote Tree.
This must be masterpiece theme... This is the thing that i"ve been thingkin about for so long and finally.. Discussed!..thanks Paul.. Not to be confused but as lesson for me to talk to others more clearly.. Masterpiece talk
An example of tolerance of opinion and thought - we agree to disagree based on our own interpretation/understanding/belief systems. Tricky and challenging to host - well done!
May Allah Bless You Uncle Paul.
You couldnt just say brother Paul?
@@kingspider1000I’m assuming he’s an Arab we usually say uncle to any Man out of respect, like in many cultures weird namings sneak into natural language and sound uncomfortable to an outsider
@@user-lq3tv4nd8w I think the brother is British. I'm pretty sure he is.
@@kingspider1000 well I still got an excuse for him still lol, in Islam we all brother and sister so it’s natural for us to think of it as a family so saying uncle still counts and sound reasonable
May Allah bless him with 70 virgin girls in Heaven (provided they have started their menses) 😘
Thanks!
Many thanks!
This is very sophisticated and it is above my paygrade. If we can have a prequel where Professor Harvey can give us the basic concepts and issues, it would make much easier to people like me.
Understanding “ Time “ and the findings will vary due to individual commitment to theology.
Really needed Peter Adamson for this one. And every one going forward.
That was mind bending
MashaAllah..
I feel like I am taking a Master program..
For a lay person this is very heavy for me, but enlightening though..
Alhamdulillah..
JazakAllah khair Bro Paul..
I am reading about Al Farabi now, but quite difficult to digest...
This was very satisfying , new arguments and some do ring a bell like the prisoner of time reminds me of whatever has an accidental attribute is emergent in the Kalam Tradition , tho some language grids were tricky , please repeat this again and longer , id say that the Quran and sunnah support '' divine temporality ''' , at least with no spoon fed metaphysics , May Allah bless you all and grant us from your knowledge , *And Guide d.mullins to Islam .
We are the reason God acts or acted - so He created a timeline that drew us away from Him , even as He seeks to draw us back to Him, for unto Him is our return. He gave us the gift of being human, of crying with joy and sighing with satisfaction until that indestructible, immutable part of us that belongs to Him must return, to be purified and assimilated into restful bliss.
Very well on this debate, people of opposite sides in the realm of religion is a nice thing to happen! Both were very good! But philosophy still blows my mind!
How beautiful will it be if politicians in Malaysia engaging each other as calm as this conversation 😅
Bicara falsafah dan kalam macam ini banyak juga dipersembahkan oleh IDE dan ASASI. Barisan yang memberi penerangan mengenai falsafah dan sains Islam ini kebanyakannya pensyarah-pensyarah yang cenderung kepada Perdana Menteri Kesepuluh. Almarhum guru saya, banyak bicara dan menulis tentang Falsafah, walaupun beliau adalah seorang lepasan pondok. Beliau adalah lepasan pondok yang buku Falsafah Ishraqiyah nya mendapat kata-kata aluan oleh Prof. Osman Bakar, Dr. Shahidan, Prof. Shaharir, Dr. Alinor dan ramai lagi. Almarhum guru cenderung PAS tetapi bab ilmu, bekerjasama dengan para ilmuan universiti menyuburkan kesepaduan ilmu Islam dan ilmu sains. Sayang sekali beliau meninggal dunia dalam umur 46 tahun. Alhamdulillah dapat kenal guru dan mempelajari pelbagai sudut bidang ilmu-ilmu pondok dan falsafah.
I highly appreciate the civility of the discussion hosted in this fantastic channel.
I just wanted to add one point on the side of timelessness of god: the temporal preinciple presupposes the co-eternality of time with god, wich is scienteficlly and untrue: we tend to forget that time is merely a dimension, we tend to do so because we are strictly bound to it, we can't go back and forth in time as we can do with the 3 spacial dimensions, that brought us to ignore time as a dimension and treat it as a constant, thus presupposing the beginning of "time" was before the beginning of space. However, according to Einstein, time and space are both intertwined dimensions that makes the space-time continuum, and they both were created with the big bang, which proves before this point of time there was no concept of time to begin with, exactly as there was no space/ universe. There was no time before god or with god and there will be no time after the universe ceases to exist. time is a decaying factor that god bound his creatures with.
Been having an internal quarrel with myself about this topic for years. This video was magnificent and helped
If I may ask, what have you concluded so far?
@@africandawahrevival I have not concluded in my belief yet, but I have a current belief that is just about the same which Ramon defended to be honest.
@@jona7200 pretty much same with you, even though the atemporal position has its own issues, such that I could see why people go the temporal route, the issues associated with the temporal is much more difficult to swallow imo, that's why I am kinda with the classical theists on this.
@@africandawahrevival Exactly, it boils down to us human beings and our limits to what we can understand of gods essence and atemporality. - The people who go to the temporal theory limit god so much that that is out of the question.
I think it's very easy to clear the contentions. There is a difference between God and what He does. God exists timelessly while His actions are temporal.
By conflating between God and what He does, both of our speakers make some significant claims that cause opposition from the other side.
Dr. Ramon wants to defend the immutability of God, so he argues against Dr. Ryan who defends the temporality of God's actions.
But because God isn't His actions and His essence doesn't change, we can understand that God is atemporal in that His essence doesn't change but the expressions of His essential attributes (voluntary actions of God) are temporal.
With this understanding, one is fine. We start by understanding God as The Eternal Agent. This never changes. But an agent acts. These actions change, subject to the agent's will.
So, God is essentially atemporal while His activity defines temporality.
🌷superb🌷
Thanks 🤗
Paul could you cover the last hearing in the US about UFOs .
amazing work
Lillahi ta'ala..
If you listen carefully to some of Ryan's positions, they are closer to the traditional Athari position than some other non-Athari Islamic positions
Indeed.
@@BloggingTheologyIn that instance, it would have been nice if you clarified it as such, Paul. To a viewer unfamiliar with Islamic theology, this will create the impression that these Platonic concepts are normative Sunni Islam, which they aren’t.
I appreciate that you attempt to remain neutral as a host, but a simple clarification of this kind should still be possible. Also, it may now be a good idea to bring on someone representing normative Sunni/Athari theology to discuss Allah and time.
I hope my criticism doesn’t cause offence, I do appreciate your content.
@@dri-fit9712 there's like tons of variations in so called atharism so he'd be talking for a while
@@mmss3199 Unlike among ahl al kalam where different groups literally takfir each other? Lol give me a break
Yep, it's strikingly similar to ibn Taymiyyahs position
At first I was like why are we discussing time? But I was here to listen into what was going on. Very quickly I realized the idea of time being God or God being time is almost needed to understand the trinitarian Christian idea of God changing form or what may have you. At the same time its imperative that muslims negate the idea of time being God because it's a creation just like all creation. Very interesting. I'm excited to hear more about this topic.
Good dialogue! They need to get back on and have a much longer dialogue about one of these arguments and get deep into the weeds.
This is one of my favourite topics... my friend taught me about God and God is Time... Not zaman(time) not asr(time) etc... But like Eeon Time.. But the way he explains it was brilliant!! I know God as Time.. If it's explained properly its something you grasp, within,..... Fantastic..
Well God created time
Why do you believe that?
Another thing my friend taught me was the whole attributes thing... I hear people saying Allah has Power has Sight has has has.. my ustadh taught me Allah doesn't have these things He GAVE US the faculties like ears and eyes to hear, see etc.... Allah hasn't got ears eyes etc that's likening Him to creation.. But instead Allah IS these things... God is the SIGHT He IS the Power He is the HEARING.. HE IS the MERCY... and not I have MERCY and I'm The Most Merciful... But HE IS the MERCY and MERCY comes from Him... same with all His Names thats why He says call Him by the Most beautiful names in the Quran.. it doesn't mention, and attributes...
Tie that type of thinking with Allah been omnipresent he's not in a place nor does he ascend or decend etc ... But ever encompassing creation, us been bound by this TIME etc... you may start to form an understanding by deeply thinking about it..
Or maybe I'm not explaining things very good.. Excuse me and God forgive me.. I wish I had all my notes its been a good couple of years.. I understand it but its hard to explain.. and I'm not trying to start a debate I'm just sharing some things I was taught.
Oh and Ibn Hazm said that one of the names of Allah is Ad Dahr.(Time) and ibn Taymiyyah said or agreed that there was nothing wrong with that. many people don't agree but thats why its essential to learn Arabic and devote yourself to study so that we don't become blind followers of faith.. God helps us understanding...
@@KyaSaj-mq6wn bro you are describing divine simplicity which is a heresy in islam. May allah guide you .
There is no time. It is only a human perception which is limited.
Fascinating. My mind has been thinking about the possibility of destroying atheism as any relevant theory. Prehaps the metaphysical thought is the method. Would anyone like to have a debate, or work on such a project ?
You really should get Professor Muhammad Al Massari on your channel, he has similar points related to time, he also has some ground breaking work on Quantum Mechanics
This is how Allah subhanahu watahala as us to debate surah taha
Time was meant to be experienced. Like when the tree falls in the forest, you must be right there to hear it.
'Lo! Allah is able to do all things.'... even create for us the experience of a timeline - yesterday, today, tomorrow.
Let's define DELTA, a tiny difference between A and anti_A, and therefore,
NIL = A + anti_A + DELTA
Question:
1) What is that equation's philosophy, ontology, epistemology, methodology, and what-everlogy?
2) Can our reality, including TIME, be inside DELTA?
Very interesting and well organized. I'd suppose to find some references to the names of Allah who apparently give us some informations about His Attributes
Great work guys please get more learned scholars from all fields and make this rich
Time= relative to something, a moment relative to something, space time and matter exist relative to the point of moment of first creation
Common Dr. Ryan Mullins W
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said,
*“Allah Almighty said: The son of Adam abuses me. He curses time and **_I am time_** , for in my hand are the night and day.”*
_Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 4549, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2246_
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ God is Time ~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
shahih 👍
36:08 was there a moment before the of creation of time itself? There could not be a "sooner", could it?
Please discuss on
CZcams channels
Dr. Tony Nadae America.
Scientific basis for Vedic India.
❤❤❤
Time is the occurrence of contingents according to Divine Will. 43:53
What I do not understand the respected speakers did not refer to Imam Ali's clarification of the process of creation, Nahj Al Balagha
I had hoped that mention of Allah descending and putting His foot over hell would have been made.
I enjoyed the discussion very much. It was enlightening for me, even as a Muslim by birth. I think every spiritual soul must have wondered about the relationship of time as we transition from life to eternal life. I realize that Allah Almighty, the Creator, is beyond our comprehension in terms of size or appearance. I also acknowledge that our universe is not the only one that exists. However, we are confined within our universe as far as we know.
Allah Almighty, the Creator, does not dwell within his creation. If I made a machine, a computer, or a phone that I’m holding, I would not be living inside it either. My main point: Allah Almighty is the Creator of time and He is not bound by it. Time is cyclical and linear. Muslims believe that time has a beginning and an end. Time is locked with the location where it occurred. Time is relative between two incidental points. As an observer of an incident, you can describe the past and the present and attempt to see the future, but Allah Almighty can see it all at once. That’s what makes a creator.
Our universe has a beginning and an end. When the universe collapses on itself, that’s when the beginning and end meet each other, and time will not exist anymore.
❤
People can have misundersrtanding when Allah subhanahu wa ta ala say to angels that God wants to create Adam.. As if Allah subhanahu wa ta is in the time.. There will be no & never explanation that can answer that because Its Allah subhanahu wa ta ala we are talking about ... But at least we can bring all human to the most brilian explanation as human to realize GOD..
Your channel Sir should be put in the dictionary as one of the examples given to elaborate on “gold mine” definition!
During the event of israk mikraj when the prophet ascended to heaven and hell he met people there. Does that mean we are already in heaven or hell while still living on earth at the same time?
I have the same thought as well. Its seem we are in a bubble, or a movie, or simulation we are running through while the the actual reality, what we experienced have long ended and we already have arrived to our final destination. But thats how human mind rationalize.
Or it might just be in same time line reality. But since God was not bounded by it. He knows the future just as how human know his past (if he has perfect memory/knowledge)
❤️❤️❤️❤️🌹🌹🌹🌹
There is another things, when Islamic traditions learn God by using the good attributes despite the nature it self is in a pair but im not trying ot insert the arguments of problems evil, but rather the pair in universe which is creationism vs chaos, so in islamic terminology/languange it self the creationist/ism can be apply linguistically as "love and mercy" attributes, something that "exist" or to be "exist" by the will of Creator.
Somehow according to philosophy of science there is always something rather than nothing, so the chaos is actually irrelevant even it does exist after that the creationism always prevails.
So chaos is doesnt need to be addressed as a pair in the universe vs finetuning/inflation in the universe.
Chaos somehow is part of the "Causations" and it doesnt meant to be meaningless or even called as nothing/nihilism, the linguistic are can be set as a pair from the word "Always soemething" vs "Always not nothing/chaos/nishilism" its still the same 😎
05:50 :Shouldn't it be God is THE good not god is good?
Just like in islam we don't say god is merciful we say he's THE merciful or THE most merciful most gracious etc it's always the.
this is an interesting discussion and i am clear from islamic ideology that god always existed and so is infinite but at a certain point he created muhammad and brought the universe into existence and thus began the process of being known by his creation and this is true that he wished to be known and knew at a certain point he would do it and he was alone before and exulted in himself but now he willed humanity into existence that we may worship him and develop ourselves that way but a time will come when we are with him in heaven and worship would be to know him and that to him means more to him than our bowing and prostrations as he has no need for that but we do and he is self-sufficient and needs no one or our bowing to him that is purely for us to develop in obedience to him and it is true that time always existed and the clock ticked away and there was alway a time period before a time that existed and before the creation of the universe there was time always with him the creator and he was the first and is the last as the quran and the bible say and we will be one with him till the end of time and thus will be him but not as gods but as his creation yes as humans that he creates and perfects to be him in the metaphorical sense and we will walk with his feet and speak his words as the hadith show and he is the last but does not annihilate but lets us live independently for all eternity with him
omar
Al-Hadid
57:1 Whatever is in the heavens and the earth declares the glory of Allah, and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
57:2 His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. He gives life and causes death; and He is Possessor of power over all things.
57:3 He is the First and the Last and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He is Knower of all things.
Excerpt From
Holy Quran
Maulana Muhammad Ali
Time is create by AllahSWT, in Alquran Surah Al Ashr ( AllahSWT mention that We as human have to use the time efektif)
25:53 The necessitarianism that Ghazali critiques.
34:59 The Sooner Objection.
44:05 bookmark
هوالاول والآخر والظاهر والباطن وهو بكل شيء عليم.
Have you changed something on your channel? Seems to be adverts far too frequently, and for questionable things too (from-an Islamic pov)
🪶📓 transmitted from the words of Ibn ‘Abbas reported that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ, said:
تَفَكَّرُوا فِي خَلْقِ اللهِ و لَا فِي اللهِ تَفَكَّرُوا
"Reflect on the creation of Allah, but do not reflect on (Allah himself!"
Sheikh al-Albani called the hadith good. See "Sahih al-Jami' as-saghir" (2975, 2976), "as-Silsilya as-sahih" (1788).
*i.T.* is moving so _fast_
Everyone *is*
_Losing Track_ of *Time*
" Click "
*How long does " i.T. " take*
[These days] seem " Lighter "
[Days passing] in " seconds "
*To start a fire* 🔥 *these "days"*
Nice seeing good interfaith content. Reach out if you want a Vedanta perspective.
What Islamic figures defend divine temporarility: Quran, Prophetic Sunnah in thousands of verses and hadiths in addition to Arabic mindset (non-Greek) of Sahabah.
Ashariyah just entered the chat.
To be honest. I am as a lay person this subject is hard to undersatand.
This is hard for everyone!
No, hard only for lay persons ^^
،in a Hadith...Allah is Dahr (eternity)
I thought top right was a bird
Time is just relative entity. It is also created or designed by God, thus time is not eternal and is not existing along with God. Time varies in different areas of the universe. Time existed along with the existence of all parts of the Galaxies.
This is too complex for me. I can't understand anything.