LOW BUCK GT500 BLOWER THROTTLE BODY TEST-CAN A THROTTLE BODY REALLY ADD 47 HP? 78 vs 102 vs BIG OVAL
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- čas přidán 5. 05. 2022
- CHEAP, JUNKYARD LS BLOWER SWAP & THROTTLE BODY TEST! HOW MUCH POWER IS A THROTTLE BODY UPGRADE WORTH? HOW MUCH POWER WILL A 102MM THROTTLE BODY ADD? SHOULD I RUN A BIG THROTTLE BODY WITH A GT500 SUPERCHARGER? WHAT SIZE THROTTLE BODY SHOULD I RUN ON MY BLOWER? CAN I RUN A FORD BLOWER ON MY JUNKYARD LS? DOES THE THROTTLE BODY INCREASE AIR TEMPS? DOES A THROTTLE BODY ADD BOOST? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I RAN THREE DIFFERENT THROTTLE BODIES ON THE FORD RACING 2.3L BLOWER ON THE CAMMED (BTR TRUCK NORRIS) JUNKYARD 5.3L LS. RUNNING 14.7 PSI, EACH THROTTLE BODY (STOCK 78, FAST 102 AND ACCUFAB OVAL) WAS TESTED FOR POWER, AIR TEMPS AND BOOST!
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If the supercharger is having to work to pull air, more work+less airflow (the rotors are only cooled by the airflow over them)= higher temps. I'm actually surprised the difference isn't more.
Heat is still a byproduct of compression. The air is still being significantly compressed which creates tremendous heat even if you are adding more air and slightly less boost. Jet engines create a massive amount of heat in the compressor section. This was the big benefit of high-flow bypass turbofan engines over turbojets. The high-flow bypass air isn’t compressed as much so the air traveling around the compressor and combustion section are what help cool the core of the engine.
Love the Ford label on the blower…surely that’s going to “help” those LS powered Fords!
Thanks for the Modular Content
I believe if you measure the temp just prior to the rotor, you will see an increase in temp there. I think there may be a choked flow condition that is accelerating the air to sonic speeds.
Look at the corrected Air mass (CFM * moisture * temp / correction) through the engine input (intake CFM:density) vs output (exhaust CFM:density) with the 3 variables. IAT will stay constant at the snout, but post intercooler will be the delta of efficiency. You can take the numbers and calculate the difference in power production.
My thought on temp is the that there is a vacuum between the blower and the TB. That same area has the boost bypass valve and some of the heated air is recirculating into the blower.
so happy I bought one of these m122 last at begging of the week thes shot up in price last night
The smaller throttle body was taking in less air thus the blower heat was saturating it more than with the larger throttle bodies which took in more air so the same heat in the blower was being spread out through more airflow which in turn created a lower inlet temp vs the smaller TB
Thank you for saving me the trouble of writing that explanation.......
Same!
With the higher volume of air being provided by the larger TB it carries off the heat being produced by the blower and it runs cooler, less heat soak. It could also be possible that with the air restricted with the smaller TB at speed you have a vacuum at the inlet of the blower and it causes turbulence in the blower and the shearing of the air creates heat, maybe a combination of both.
Well I can think of two possibilities.
#1. It could be that the restriction itself, created by the smaller throttle body is also creating an air temperature increase, before it even gets compressed.
#2. If the smaller throttle is creating a restriction right behind it, then there will be a greater pressure increase, because it will be starting from "below" normal atmospheric pressure, and going up from there....
Reduced efficiency. Higher vacuum at SC inlet. It'd be interesting to put a Vac gauge between the TB and the SC.
Put a bell mouth on the 102mm TB to reduce the restriction even more and eek out a few more HP.
It'd also be interesting to put a layer of BB's or small beads on the oval throttle plate and the 102mm TB. Count or weigh them to see how close the actual area is to each other. Even though the Oval looks larger it may not be.
I can just flow them
Recycling its own compressed air? Might be easier for the compressed air to leak past the rotors rather than the fresh air to enter the inlet because it's a restriction? Would explain the lower boost and the higher temps. Keep testing Richard!
The extra airflow might be helping cool the charge temperature a little
Reduced air velocity caused by the restriction that also reduced overall air volume in the blower itself resulting in less heat dissipation.. like covering part of a radiator, it may be the same size but reduced air causes more heat soak.
simple explanation is the pressure difference across the blower changes the efficiency point of the compressor, smaller TB = lower pressure (vacuum) at rotor intake vs larger where you are closer to atmospheric. have a look at the TVS2300 compressor map. also why TVS blowers love having a turbo blow through them while screw type not so much!
Hi, Thanks. I am going thru all kinds of combos in my head as I am buying a zl1 1le with a stick.... I think in my case you cut your losses and buy the Magnuson, big tb, BT cam and rocker set up and of course headers... The 1.7 from chevy is great but maxed out, for $7000.00 for the Magnuson it just makes everything so much better charge temps especially which, like everything else ends up being the most important thing ...lol
The smaller TB is not allowing enough airflow across the charge air cooler . More air volume gives it more dense air and the cooler does not have to work as hard.
More saturation time with the small TB causing temp to go up slightly. I would have thought the velocity of the 78 would have created a wind chill and dropped temp. I guess that’s why we dyno!
It's airflow velocity. That's why the GM style 102mm did as well as it did.. the others where too big,..or to small
Squeezing air generates heat, the smaller throttle body having air forced thru its smaller orifice raises temperatures just like when it’s compressed
Totally wild idea :D :D Maybe small throttle body restrict air flow so much, that all air goes thru small portion of intercooler and dont use whole cooler area? Bigger tb there is more air and it spreads all over cooler area...
I like that you included KPA 🤓👍🤗
she goes both ways
I have a 78mm on my Lq4 with 469 cam and ls3 heads and intake I would like to see you do a comparison between the 78 and like a 90mm comparison on that NA setup since it’s same as the engine u test all the Time
I’m going to say the smaller opening is building heat because there is less room for convection cooling.
Amazing to see how much power it takes to turn the SC. NA, it makes 427HP. With a turbo at 14.7psi, that'd go to 854HP. With the SC, it's only 707HP. Is the awesome SC whine worth an extra 150HP of wear and tear? It's debatable. :D
Also amazing that a standard width serp belt can transfer that much power without slipping. Awesome design by Tom to get that great belt wrap on the SC pulley.
It isn't the blower whine, it's the immediacy. I drove an ecoboost work truck and the power was great once it got there. With a roots blower, it is right under your foot
the smaller TB probably causes you to run in a less efficient part of the compressor map (i.e. the lower right part of the map)
Blower is working harder but also heat transfer vs mass. Same reason guys add larger intercoolers/reservoirs. If you have a given mass of something and it takes 1 minutes to reach X temp, add 50% to the mass of that same thing and now it might take 1:45 to reach X temp. It’ll still get there but it just slows the rate.
The smaller TB creates a slight drag between the TB-plate and rotors, thus change of charge slightly now below barometric >14.7 to psi creates MORE heat from the change rather the larger TB flow is steady at baro to psi.
It's small but remember vacuum pulls moisture out of the air.
MORE FLOW IN EQUALS MORE POWER OUT
I was just about to throw a turbo on my Tahoe but now I think I’ll go with a ford blower. It should match my Roush wheels nicely 🤔
The blower is working harder with the smaller throttle body , making it work harder
Because the amount of air moving over it with the smaller throttle body wasn't sufficient to keep the temperature down like the other bigger throttle bodies there was more air volume moving over the intercooler therefore keeping the temperature down
Restriction means less gas molecules for adiabetic heat absorbsion, thus higher temp.
I don't have the math to prove it but my instinct is a vacuum is being created between the TB & the blower leading to the higher temps recorded.
The same reason your radiator does less cooling when you restrict it’s air flow.
Rich it doesn't go against all of the laws of thermal dynamics to say that the air temperature is going to be cooler due to increase flow rate. The faster the air moves over the intercooler, It actually will cool the intercooler not just be cooled by it. In turn making compression of the air by the supercharger more efficient and thus creating less heat. Simply put it's cooling through efficiency.
Really hope he does stuff for early 5.7 hemi I absolutely want to put a 122 on my 5.7
please do a test on the hp difrence between factory ls piston rings and total seal piston rings
Answer to temp vs airflow question. What if you had no airflow but ran up the blower speed? What would be the manifold air temp then? Much hotter I suggest.
What do you suspect is easier to tune for part throttle drivability, a big oval TB or twin entry factory stuff like a 58mm from TPIS (Gen 2 LT1). Assuming you need the airflow and the manifold is ported to suit. My 600hp combo does not lol. Yet...
I would like to see where a 90mm throttle body would rate on that setup. The blower can only process so much air, so you eventually reach a point of diminishing returns. Adding a 90mm to the mix might help figure that out.
From Richard's test data we saw that boost loss was 1.8 psi with the 78mm throttle, and .5 psi with the 102. Flow capacity is proportional to area, and the ratio of areas between the 102 and 78 is 1.71. The ratio of areas between the 90 and 78 is 1.33. The difference in boost loss was 1.3 psi. Setting up a simple ratio of change in boost loss to the ratio of areas: 1.3/1.71 = x/1.33 gives a boost loss of 1.01 psi for the 90 mm throttle body. Power added would be about 78% (1.01/1.3) of what the 102 added. This is sort of an oversimplification, but should be close.
Yes, that is oversimplified. It's based on assumptions that may not be true. That's why we test things.
@@michaelblacktree I keep posting performance predictions so that Richard will run tests to check my assumptions. So far he hasn't been interested.
Wish a 90/92 mm was tested. It’s the go to. Tuning them for idle and low speed is much easier than a 102
Less air flowing across the rotors, so less cooling effect leading to hotter intercooler entry temps?
Can you play with water flow to find optimal flow to keep Temps down?
Restrictions create cavitation
Cavitation creates heat
I does show that the SC is eating about 150hp.
Ya turbos are cool
But also there is an alternator and power steering pump and probably a water pump so it's probably not the full 150 but over 100
how does it show that?
I mean I assume he means that 427 with an extra atmosphere of roughly 15psi should be 854ish not 703 is about 150 less I mean without the supercharger you don't have the extra like 270hp but if it just magically gave you 15 psi then it's eating around 150hp but like I said there was more on the belt than just the supercharger but I mean the supercharger did take somewhere north of 100hp
What do you do for fuel injectors? I'm sure you run holley, but what do you see on dyno results as far as what size injectors are good for what power level. Things like lb per hour, fuel pressure, duty cycle ect.. I ask because I'm building an lq4 with BOOST. As always thanks for all the testing Richard, you do this industry one hell of a service.
please see the injector video
Could we get a video on different pulleys with different boosts
The higher temps came from the size of the throttle body and the blower fighting for air and trying hard to turn and just simply not getting the air. I would go with the largest throttle body because of the least restrictions and especially is your adding some sort of air ram system.
bigger tb equal more boost equals more temp
Disculpa que fue lo que estudiaste que la verdad me encantaría a aprender lo que haces con los motores seria un sueño 🙏💓 gracias saludos y vendiciones💪💪💪💪💪💪💪🏎️👌
About the smaller throttle body, higher inlet temps and lower boost, I wonder about the blower itself imparting the same heat to less air and the less dense charge cooling less as it passes through the air to water inter cooler. I don't know enough about heat transfer in blowers beyond the simple understanding of low to high pressure results in lesser to greater heat(or the same amount of heat, just in a denser volume). I know enough to know that there is more to heat transfer than pressure in and out because of the differing amounts of heat that centrifugal and roots blowers due to the ways that the blowers build pressure. Put short, I know enough to know I don't know. Would be neat to see some runs with even smaller throttle bodies or less than WOT to see if there is a clear trend related to throttle restriction and inlet temperature.
How good is the internal sealing of the rotors in those blowers? Is the heated,compressed air leaking back from the pressurised side to the low pressure inlet side bringing the heat with it?
Thanks again for the informative videos. I see the Larger Throttle Body makes more power with a PD Blower, Do you think the Larger TB would make much of a difference with a Centrifugal Blower ?
IT WON'T
What are the dimensions of the oval throttle body? Throttle body flow is simple: it's proportional to the area. The oval throttle body didn't make much more power than the 102 because it's WOT area is not much larger.
Did you take pressure data at the inlet to the supercharger rotors? I think it would show that the inlet pressure was lower than than the 102 and oval units. This forces the blower to operate at higher pressure ratio and leads to the higher IMT.
area doesn't tell you flow-only potential-the flow bench tells you flow
missing the dyno graff down to 3k under boost
Do you have a link to the blower adapters?
Still trying to get a price from Tom he must have gotten a lot of messages on Facebook
Post a link for the adapter...😀
I think the more air it consumes, the cooler it gets.
Air helps cool. Less air more heat.
How could someone twincharge an LS V-8 using a M122 (GT500) Supercharger and a generic evay GT45 Turbocharger? Or is it even possible (if it is where could I find help or information to do so) thanks.
sorry for the confusion. I’m using Tom Demeuse’s kit on a 5.3l LS motor with a VMP Trinity blower. What can I use for a throttle body. It has to be a drive by wire setup because it’s going into a 2013 gmc Sierra.
USE AN ADAPTER WITH THE STOCK DBW TB
Does he have kits for SBC?
Could you test the m122 from the 5.4l gt500 too please!!
He already did a series on the "M122 CAD blower". The M122 on my 2011GT500 was weak sauce and a waste of time compared to a 2.3L TVS.
The kit I got from Tom skipped the elbow and put the throttle body right against the s/c... I blended the transition as best I could. I wonder if that would make a difference?
All restrictions before the rotors cause some limit
Smaller t/b does not give you a higher thermal mass of bulk flow
The smaller tb had t higher temp due to the amount of air moving through
A smaller volume of air will absorb heat faster.
So if I put a dual blade 70mm oval tb on my B16, I'll pick up 40+ hp?
yes on a D16
Welfome to gt500 blower life
What do you think a similar 6.0 truck engine would make with the same cam ?? Also would the stock GT-500 throttle body which would come with the blower work alright on the LS.
that tb will work-it just flows less than the oval
I would say the restriction is creating the heat. No expert tho.
Friction from pulling air.
My common sense says that less fresh airflow through the SC provided less cooling
Richard, Do you think the the overall height of the assembly is taller than the truck NA intake?
NOT SURE
Could you get it up to 1000 hp. By turning up the boost. How much was the adapter and intercooler? Spark degree?Afr.? Fuel type and pressure? How much boost can you throw, 25 psi or...?
not sure that blower will support 1000 hp
Richard holdener,
How much power will a m122 on a 5.3 with cam and head package be able to make?
over 600 hp easily
Hey Richard, what injectors are you using. I know you said 80lb, but which one specifically.
Thanks for your time.
deka 80s from accel
Thank you sir. Talked to Tom and have my adapter plates on order to go on a LQ9 that I’m replacing a 5.3 with in my 2005 Ranger. Just down the way in Corona Ca. Can’t have enough power in that little truck.
will this kit fit the 5.7l LS1 would like this on my '04 VY HSV Clubsport
yes
whaaaaaah whaaaaah!
What was the other low buck blower he showed was compatible with the 5.3?
there are many, many blowers that work on a 5.3l
Where do we purchase the adapter….for the ford blower
demuse engineering as stated in the video
You can’t/aren’t making the blower work any harder without changing a pulley , thus in theory the blower is spinning the same speed every run . The only variable that is changing is the amount of airflow it’s receiving . Your asking it to do the same amount of work with let’s say 10% less airflow.
more flow equals more work-think about a paddle wheel or propeller
I wonder if the 78mm throttlebody will never make more than 650ish horsepower with a supercharger, no matter how small the pulley is
the power will continue to increase with boost with the smaller tb, it just becomes more and more restrictive
Where was the air temp probe located? Before or after the throttle body?
if you had it before-it would just measure ambient air in the dyno
Decreased airflow, less cool air
Was this 5.3 straight out of the junkyard with no ring gap ?
no gap
Pulley swap???
Can you get rid of the elbow ? Mount the tb to the sc?
only with a different adapter
maybe slight belt slip
Where did you get this blower from
this one was from ford racing-but the adapter works with a gt500 blower too
So how do you control all this installing it in X vehicle?
with the same ecu
@@richardholdener1727 ok so no extra wiring you need to add?
Where do i get the blower and intake from?
demuse engineering
Demeuse engineering
How much power if you add nitrous?
how much nitrous?
@@richardholdener1727 good question lol. 100 shot or so.
Let me buy that engine.
MAKE OFFER
More friction.
Will it work on my 4.8
yes
What’s the kit called!!!
DEMUSE ENGINEERING
Price range?
1:34 volume normalization! One new set of ears plz.
Jesus how many comments about the TB and air temp issue can there be lol
So spend $4k for 47hp
How to make an LS make power... add ford parts... how to make an LS fast? Put it in a ford car.