The Strategy of the Peloponnesian War
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2024
- What happens when an unbeatable army goes up against an unbeatable navy? This video compares the strategies of Athens and Sparta over the course of the 27-year-long Peloponnesian War. Special focus will be placed on the war plans of Athens and Sparta, their execution (or failure to execute), and of course the notorious 'Thucydides Trap'.
SCRIPT: strategosstuff.blogspot.com/2...
All routes/borders are approximate. All errors are my own. I apologize for the bad sound quality.
▬ CHAPTERS ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
0:00 - Introduction
0:18 - [I] Athens vs. Sparta
1:20 - [II] The Thucydides Trap
3:07 - [III] Archidamian Phase I [431-428 BC]
6:37 - [IV] Archidamian Phase II [428-421 BC]
9:41 - [V] The Peace of Nicias & the Sicilian Expedition [421-413 BC]
11:55 - [VI] The Ionian Phase [412-404 BC]
14:20 - [VII] Conclusion
▬ SOURCES ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Hanson V. A War Like No Other. Random House 2006.
Kagan D. A New History of The Peloponnesian War. Cornell University Press 2013.
Lazenby J. The Peloponnesian War. Routledge 2004.
Rahe P. The Grand Strategy of Classical Sparta. Yale University Press 2015.
▬ ATTRIBUTIONS ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Google Maps
Wikipedia (Boundaries, Routes, Dates)
Made using Powerpoint 2013.
What? Just "thanks for watching the video?" No "please like and subscribe"?
Well, you get at least a like for that.
There are many history CZcams channels nowaday that focus on what's going on in the battle fields. But you are the first to focus on the grand strategy level. You should consider teaming up with your colleagues in those other channels and do a comprehensive analysis of important events in history from multiple levels, beginning with grand strategy down to the battle field.
Actually, that was Thucydides and Herodotus. His videos are nevertheless real gold for learning the facts.
When I play total war I try to focus on grand strategy
So good to also get strategic view in this channel !
@@gsmiley7449 he communicates info in very short time compared to the books though, so is to important part his work.
You presented this material well. I also like how you used a plain map, making it easier to highlight what you were talking about. Others used elaborate maps that are distracting making the entire presentation less clear (the map actually made it harder to absorb the information). I’m sure this sounds crazy.
Thanks! Ultimately maps are a way to present relevant data, so the key is eliminate what is not relevant (like topographic data or irrelevant states) in order to focus attention on the key issues and relationships.
@@StrategyStuff i just wish you put a slight blue tint to the ocean, and slight Brown tint to land
Very informative video. You could have also mentioned how following the Battle of Arginusae the Athenian fleet was ordered by its generals to return to Athens and not collect the survivors of sunk or disabled ships from the water because of fear that an approaching storm would destroy their remaining fleet, which as you allude to, they would not have had the capacity to replace. When they arrived back in Athens the populace heard that they did not collect their soldiers who drowned and it was regarded as sacrilegious. There was huge public outcry and pressure to prosecute the generals. Six of the eight generals were then executed following a trial including Pericles the Younger, son of the famed Pericles mentioned in this video, and the other two escaped into exile. The populous later regretted their decision to execute the generals and charged the prosecutors who fled the city. It's difficult to predict that Athens would have won the war had those eight generals not been lost, but they might not have lost at Aegospotami in the following year if they had more experienced and able generals (as that defeat was brought on by incompetence by the new generals failing to beach their ships in a harbour, but instead leaving them exposed on a wide beach and the Spartans were able to destroy the fleet on land, rather than in a naval battle).
Fantastic job synopsizing a complicated history. Excellent use of maps with bullet points on the side. Thanks for posting!
The Sicilian expedition wasn’t necessarily all that terrible an idea in theory. Remember that Athens’ walls made it impenetrable by land. Thus, it could only truly lose if its grain supply was cut off. Naval dominance wasn’t an issue until the end of the war, so the only challenge was where the grain would come from.
The three bread baskets of the region were Egypt, the Black Sea, and Sicily. Egypt was Persian-controlled, so it wasn’t much of an option, especially as they increasingly backed Sparta. The Black Sea was where Athens imported most of its grain from, but it could be cut off by land from the Hellespont. Sicily was controlled by pro-Spartan cities, but if the expedition was successful, it could provide Athens a secure grain supply that Sparta couldn’t cut off by land. It was a risky gamble sure, but with considerable potential rewards.
I’m glad this randomly appeared in my recommended
Great video. I hope you upload more videos soon. Although I understand it is a very difficult process. Thanks for sharing this first class content with us for free!
If you people have time, find and read the Classic Landmark version of the book on this war by Thucydides. It is amazing!
Your videos are extremely well done! I've subscribed and hope that you continue.
this is an absolutely excellent summary
This channel is a hidden gem.
Highly enjoyable & informative, excellent research with outstanding presentation, the map supplemented the narration & made the entire subject much more accessible. I was 13 when my dad gave me acopy of Thucylides this video would have made it so much easier to understand.
Excellent. Thanks for posting.
are you telling me ''this is SPARTA" allied with the tyrannical Persians to topple MUH FREEDOM ?
Athens= no freedom for slaves, allies, migrants (the allies of Athens fleeing there even) or women...
@Green Ghouls You are so correct my man, modern europeansjust can not stomach it!
Spartans were slave owning, pedos
You are reading what the Atheinan says about Athens and their enemies. Athens was not a modern democracy. Women, slaves, allies, foreigners etc was keep very short by the "freedom town". The "alliance for freedom" was just Athenian dominance of smaller city states.
@@PMMagro you mean no vote ( women didn't vote until 20th century 1918 for UK, 1920 USA, 1944 France etc). Vote was for citizens, if you were not native born you were not citizen. Now they have the 7 years thing in Anglosaxon countries but overall, citizenship was hard to give. native born and after completing military training. Slaves were war captives.
It is True that the Delian League turned into an Athenian Hegemony and this is very instructive for the present and the future history. Allies could contribute money or ships, and all cities chose money because it was easier instead of building sheeps for the common force. Athens was building ships and it turned out it was Athens ships for the league and other people's money contributions to the common pot. At some point, with Athens practically having the defenses of all cities who had chosen the easy route, Athens took the common pot from Delos to Athens for "safeguarding". The contributions to the Delian pot, turned into contributions to the Athens pot. Turned out Athens was also managing the pot for everyone. Not practically owning it but managing it (what's the difference really?)(reminiscent of socialism where public managers manage the companies and utilities that "belong to everyone in the state"). Also this is a lesson for all unions between states and even in cases within states. A protector or manager is a thing that can lead astray. It is the principal agent theorem as well. This is also why Athenians didn't like Attorneys and chose ot defend themselves. Without defending yourself you give your case to the Attorney who could have possibly different motives or be buyed out. Generally, military, money affairs, intellectual issues etc should not be given to others, there can be issue there.
Thanks for the Video.
Somehow heartbreaking how it falls apart.
Great video. Really informative and well presented .Keep it up
This was excellent. Thank you.
These are great videos. You should make more if you can
great stuff!
Very good. Thank you!
Awesome video! Thank you!
Found this channel today
Cool stuff
Where have your videos been my whole life?
In CZcams
great vid, subed
Athens. Spreading freedom before it was cool
More like imposing "freedom" whether wanted or not.
Athens : Mediterranean Police
Athens, FUCK YEAH!
COMING AGAIN TO SAVE SOME MUTHAFUCKING SLAVES YEAH
@@legionxiii8055 That's gold
@@legionxiii8055 the last people they wanted to save were slaves.
Pericles out here with the original Fabian strategy
I still don't understand how Athens could be so arrogant.
They should have accepted the peace treaty, before they lost their northern territories to Brasidas.
And how could anyone have thought that the sicilian expedition would result in anything good?
Read Thucydides' Peloponnesian War yourself. It's easy point out blunders with the power of hindsight, but during the war(s) things were not so clear. Although noted in the video, the completely unexpected Spartan defeat at Pylos (which only happened because some random Athenian citizen was heckling an Athenian general who subsequently decided to give up to command to this dude saying "well you do it then", and through sheer dumb luck managed to succeed) and the subsequent siege and battle of Sphacteria was a monumental disaster and really did threaten to undermine the whole of Spartarn society by threatening to liberate the Messenians (who had been enslaved by the Spartans as Helots) and prompting further Helot revolts. This happening right after a series of other minor and not so minor defeats had the Spartans utterly demoralized and emboldened the Athenians, so it is no small wonder that leaders in Athens wanted to push their advantage.
Yes, the Athenians were insufferable assholes, and could even be described as the bad guys in the war, but they weren't stupid.
Very good sir.
Hey man, nice video. Hopefully as you get more ad revenue and more sponsor money, or patreon money you’ll make even better videos and animations and stuff. I do recommend changing your channel name to something more compelling. Like ... Strategies of History or Strategic Insights or Strategy Focus or something like that. Just my two cents. Good luck!
I'm going to try this on my next age of empires 2 campaign
thanks sir
Sounds promising
The Spartans where right. You can not accept a situation where your power/resources shrink while your enemies outgrow you completly...
Yeah and then they did just that when Macedon rose as the hegemon of Greece and had disappeared into obscurity when the Rome came knocking, they got a lot of things right but they were too resistant to change which was their downfall.
And they did nothing at all with this advantage. Too damn stubborn and conservative
I here because of Thucydides and classical realism
In the beginning of your video, you show Argos as an ally to Sparta, but i thought that they were well known as being bitter enemies of each other and never got along. I'm not very knowledgeable in ancient greek history, so I may be wrong so if someone knows the history of Argos and Sparta relations, I would like to know so please reply to my comment.
Great Video
Athens in 450sBC (mid-1st Peloponnesian War) agreed with Sparta to abandon its alliance with Argos, leading to Argos signing a 30 years' truce with Sparta. Without a counterbalancing force this meant a more pro-Spartan lean to Argive policy. During the Archidamian Phase, Argos assisted Spartan efforts to ally with the Persians, and in the run-up to Solygia in 425BC forewarned the Corinthians about the Athenian invasion. With the expiry of the 30 Years' Truce, of course, Argos was quickly swayed back to its pro-Athenian orientation in the run-up to 1st Mantineia 418BC.
@@StrategyStuff thank you
We need to also remember that Argos' power had been neutralised in 494 BC in the battle of Sepeia, the very reason why Argos did not take part in the Persian Wars. In that war, Argos was thoroughly devastated losing more than 6000 of its male citizens with the city remaining with women (famously defending their city in a desperate effort that moved Spartan Cleomenes I who did not proceed with the sack), kids and a few old men. After that Argos was left on its own and its alliance with Athens was a nominal one as it had no power to defend itself, let alone aid Athens. Even 3 generations later Argos remained a shadow of its former self and Spartans had only to ask for it to go under their sphere.
New thinking
Job description
6:36 when my friend asks me what my favorite country is. (turn volume to 100 for full context)
you alter what Thukidides writes
the most important face of the war, the Sicilian phase, you almost skip it without any info. the Athenians could have won that war and that would lead them to total victory with big potentials. it was a very sharp move and was judged in the details
the most educative piece of history is the Peloponnesean War
I'm kind of new to this part of history, but I must ask. Wasn't invading an island as far away as Sicily a bit too ambitious for Sparta's capabilities at the time? Considering the voyage time and the fact that it would have been very hard to resupply the troups if a battle had to be waged on the island
@@deltoroperdedor3166 Athens invaded Sicily while Sparta sent minimum support - general.
Athens has the strength to send a huge army for the time, and did it to ensure the control of an area that Sparta couldn't threaten. Not stopping there, Athens sent a second army as big as the first to ensure victory, depleting it's resources. The failure there, which was caused by a tactical mistake plus generally from Miltiades betrayal, led to the Athenians hiding behind walls ever after. Their end came with their naval destruction in Anatolia's shores.
Had they managed to gain victory in the major battle, Sicily and the rest of Magna Grecia would then on feed Athenian coalition against the Peloponnesean
What did Persia get in return for all that gold. Isles?
Persia got the Greek states in Asia Minor.
Sparta's Major ally was Argos ? O_O
This is Athens!
This looks like something a history teacher would show in class when she’s too hungover to teach
I do not agree that the Spartans got the a good strategy for the war. The main problem was that Athens´ strategy was chaotic and unpractical and at the end work against them.
Or maybe the Athenian oppressive rule is the culprit? How can you fight while your friends keep revolting? I think they did just fine with the defense and raids strategy. However they seemed to be fighing alone without a coalition force. Even that they were doing just fine, until the misfortune in Sicily.
@@EnsignJC That is the key. Athenian oppresive rule worked against them and made them loose.
That entire sorry conflict was just one long list of dumb decisions interspersed with the odd bit of fleeting genius. Little wonder the Romans steamrollered the lot of them years later.
*Sparta literally couldn't fight Athens at sea, but if they had the fleets they would.
On the other hand. Athens did have plenty of footmen and were just that afraid :)
real life ain't no video game, you can't just click a button and recruit soldiers that will have the slightest chance against a cohesive force that has been trained for war from the age of 7.
Odd. I could've sworn Athens won this. Maybe it was one of there previous wars? Or a later one?
You could say they “won” the first half of this Peloponnesian War when they captured all those Spartans at Sphacteria.
If history rhymes,today, the US and allies are Athens and Russia and its friends are Sparta.
404 Athens not found
THIS WAR! IS! RIDICULOUS!!!
I thought the strategy was just die
…
Svi koji su dosli radi ljiljane
This is about the history of the war, not the strategy :-(
LOL, what? it's strategy,
strategy is a plan for a grand scale war.
maybe what your trying to find is, tactics. not strategy =_=
tactics is a plan for a battle.
Athens dominates Greece even to this day and living there feels like living in a seperate country , everything's bigger , faster and the Athenians have their own unique culture/way of thinking .. Greece without Athens would be like NYS without NYC , more than half of our GDP comes from this city alone , everybody gets paid 5 to 25% more working there than elsewhere in Greece and you can predict our country's Prime Minister ( PM > President when it comes to Greece ) by watching South Athens's electoral results lol sources : i lived both in Greece's countryside and Athens ... we fucking rule to this day , suckas
Athens has an excellent port, so long-term regional dominance is assured.
I don't live in Greece, but still, I find it quite worrying that OP finds the lack of development in other Greek cities a reason for boasting
What? No
Modern Athens is a new invention.
Greeks between 5th and 18th century were Constantinople + Thessaloniki + Smyrna + Trabzon mainly (and some other places at times) , with some places like Athens also ok and midsized.
But Athens was not anything above medium between 5th-18th centuries.
Not by accident, Byzantine Emperors destroyed Athens by plan of destroying Greek religion.
Reason for 18th century refocus on Athens was largely the no completion of plan to free Constantinople.
However is also safer place since countries look for a place around the middle.
But no... Especially for Greece, it is much more complex. Different areas were the centre in different periods, roughly:
(Minoan Crete not included )
13th BC - 8th BC - Mycenae,
8th-6th Miletus,
6th-4th Athens,
4th-3rd Pella,
3rdBc -2nd AD Alexandria (& Athens),
After 3rd -13th Constantinople (with Thessaloniki as no2),
13th Nicae ,
13th -14th Constantinople,
14th-15th Mystras,
15th Venice(yeah),
16th Crete,
17th ?Constantinople,
18th Ioannina (and Constantinople)
18th - 19th (until 1922) Smyrna & Alexandria ,
19th-20th Athens
Roughly like this.
All the above were the focus
@@innosanto Athens never had that importance in Greek history as people think today. If Athens is the capital of Greece today that is merely because of not having yet liberated the true one.
Could you please slow down the speech and not clip your words.
jazz4asahel I watch him on double speed
Athenian tyranny is only "ironic" if one conflates "democracy" with "freedom." A mob can be and often is significantly more tyrannical than a single person. A single person can be reasoned with; negotiated with; bribed; pressured; threatened; blackmailed; appealed to and ultimately assassinated if necessary. But a mob of people respond to none of those things. The will of the mob is absolute and unappealable.
"Democracy" and "Freedom" are not the same thing and Freedom never lasts long under Democratic rule. And Athens failure in its war with Sparta demonstrates the utter incompetence of democracy as a ruling system.
Hence why the Founders of the United States created a Republic not a total Democracy.
Socrates would agree.