What is the SECRET to building up a CLASSIC FRAME with MODERN PARTS? (Here is what you need to know)
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
- Are you thinking about doing a Vintage bike restoration? But you don't want vintage parts? You can just fit modern parts on a classic frame can't you?
This is a question we get asked all the time. In this video we will explain what you can and can't do with a vinatage frame and what era frame will be best for your "restomod", as our US friend s like to put it :-)
00:00 Introduction
00:14 Geometry
01:03 Wheels
01:50 Rear Dropouts
02:37 Brake Depth
03:59 Brake Fitting Style
04:37 Cantilever Brakes On Touring Bikes
04:49 Rear Spacing
05:21 Bonus - French Frames
06:39 Finish & Next Video
I'm Paul Gibson, head framebuilder here at Ellis Briggs.
Here at Ellis Briggs we love working on classic and vintage bicycles. After all, we've been working on them now since 1936!
If you have something similar that needs doing or want to know more about our frame restoration services click here-
www.ellisbriggscycles.co.uk/c...
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#steelisreal #classicbikes #bikeworkshop #framebuilder
A very good outline of what to expect with older frames thankyou
Glad you found it helpful! I love keeping these classic frames alive :-)
I had an Ellis Briggs as a junior when I started racing. Vertical dropout in the rear. Cool bike!!
Riding a 80's Tange Prestige equipped with 12sp Chorus, super enjoyable!
Sounds like a nice bike you have there!
My first bike I bought for myself was a Peugeot PX10, I have upgraded the drive train, and brakes over the years. The seat post is fairly easy with a shim. The hollowtech BB I get from a company in Israel. Yes the old French frames are a bit of a pain, once I got on where to get components, it is easy.
I just prefer the ride quality of the 70's era steel frames. I have had a few aluminium frames, all of which broke, so now I exclusively ride steel, none of which have broke.
My PX10 is only 600g heavier than a modern carbon frame, 50 years ago I might have cared but not today.
You have a great channel that deserves more subscribers.
That's a great story.
I'd be interested to get some contact details of the company in Israel that you mention, as that may help others with French frames.
Thanks for watching!
I've had two screwed and glued Alan aluminum frames come apart but with much creative effort I've managed to repair them .
I am really enjoying your channel!
Great, thanks for watching!
I have a french frame which came with a headset that has an internal width of 22mm instead of 22.2mm (metric). Regular quill stems fit, only barely, and tend to get stuck, so you've got to remove it and grease it regularly. Also the seat tube is 26.4mm, which was a pain to source too.
Had to face this problem myself with a '67 Peugeot tourer that I restored. By replacing the fork with a standard fork off a Schwinn Paramount (or any English/ISO standard fork) and a standard headset corrected this problem. The quill stem trouble disappeared and a greater range of handlebars opened up to me. However, I kept the original seat post. I refer you to Sheldon Brown on this subject.
If you’re worried about the brakes the tektro r559 converts basically any side pull brake 27in bike into a 700c bike. The best part is that they come nutted or with a recessed nut to fit just about anything. As for the rear spacing so long as it’s steel you can stretch it or cold set it pretty easily. It gets difficult when you are messing with frames that have cantilever brakes because the mounting points were not standardized. These can also be converted to 700c but it takes some doing. I have had luck with the Shimano CT91 smooth post brakes that allow for a little bit more adjustment of pad height.
Bottom brackets are pretty easy too so long as you can avoid Italian, French bikes and low end Raleigh’s from the 70s. They can be done but they usually aren’t BSA or ISO threaded. That being said companies like Phil wood exist and have a bunch of weird square taper stuff to make just about anything work. But if square taper isn’t your jam the sram rival cranks have a cup threaded for just about anything too. And if all else fails you can sometimes re tap the bottom bracket threads to a more common standard I’ve had lost of success with this on the low end Raleigh’s I mentioned earlier.
Headset can be an issue but lots of cool conversion bits hanging around to update them as well. My personal favorite is the innicycles threadless conversion head set.
True you can fit long reach calipers, but i have always found them to be poor in performance. Sometimes a conversion to centre-pulls can make sense and if you are happy to have the frame altered, you can have dedicated braze on mounts which work really well. You get loads of drop without the drop in braking performance :-)
Yes You can often get away with re-tapping Raleigh threads to 24tpi, we've done that since adam was a lad.
Personally i find ahead convertors a bit of an eyesore, so I often remove the threaded column and braze in a new ahead one.
Thanks for watching!
@@ellisbriggsbikes true if modifying the frame is an option with doing new braze ons and things then I totally agree ditch the long pulls. Also, yeah the converters are ugly but that innicycle one looks like a regular threadless bike. It still uses a wedge which is kind of a bummer considering they like to seize up but as with all things a little maintain goes a long way. All in all though very cool video I hope more people start modifying these old frames because a lot of them are not only beautiful but also ride so damn nice.
Thanks.
I'll have a look at that converter as there are always customers who want to do it that way and if it looks neat then all the better
I can vouch for the Tektro's as well.
I've used both nutted and recessed and the dual pivot design (plus if you buy them new you get new blocks) is way superior to an original single pivot.
It improves what I reckon is the major shortcoming of the older bikes- braking.
definitely better braking than single pivots
did a ca. 1980 sekai frame, put a new shimano groupset on it. originally a 2x5, i had to spread it to fit the x10 wheel in, and used steel flat bar to make some hangers to drop the brake calipers down to fit 700c as it originally had 27" wheels.
Well that would work! and its another bike kept on the road :-)
There’s definitely something to old steel frames that sets it apart from modern framesets. I know because that’s all I ride (I have 3) and it’s not my era so I have no nostalgic attachment to them. They just simply ARE BETTER! plus to add, I have a little bit more rarer early 90s frame with 128mm rear spacing as they were making that transition from 126 to 130!
I can relate to that as I personally started riding in the 90s. And my appreciation came from seeing mass produced bikes and handmade bikes up close everyday.
We still made frames with with 126mm in the 90s if we had a customer that wanted it. As often they would put the kit they already had back on the new frame! :-)
New bikes just seem like they are trying to fix problems that don't exist. For example, this week I had a customer bring a wheel in for a spoke and true. That used to be a straight forward job. This wheel had hidden nipples, which were alloy, so of course the nipple had completely disintegrated! On top of that it was tubeless, so that meant a new tubeless rim tape and all the fun reseating the tyre. To be honest it made repairing a sewing back up tubulars seem less of a chore!
That was for 7spd freewheels with the same cog spacing as a 6, but one more added as opposed to the 'compact' 7spd spacing, which would fit into the 126mm spread.
I have been doing this for years. I can fit ANY wheel to any frame, ANY caliper brake to any frame (I machine my own adapters), a modern crank bearing assembly to ANY frame - I machine my own adapters. I like threadless stems over quills, so I use the commercial adapters or make my own from old quills. Drop-outs... there are many adapters to allow horizontal drop-outs to fit modern rear derailleurs. Odd seatpost diameter? Beer can shims to the rescue. Shifters? I use only friction shifters mounted on handlebar. Seat tube too narrow for modern front derailleur? I make an adapter shim from aluminum TV mast tubing. Same tubing for adapting modern brake levers to old handlebars. One of my favorite bikes is my 1970's era Schwinn Supersport with Campagnolo crank assembly and wheels, and double-pivot caliper brakes, built as a single speed on the Campy cassette.
You sound very resourceful!
Thanks for watching
Good luck with your vids good info Thanks Noel
Thanks for watching! Hopefully you'll find the next one interesting too
Back in my day, started with a used 1960s Cinelli frame back '74, we, with no internet and only bike magazines, had to find ways to fit Italian to English to Japanese components, often filing and 'machining' parts so they fit- or almost fit. If a guy had Campagnolo parts on his bike you knew he had a BIG paper route.
Nigel Dean World Tour 531 super tourist still in use with mostly Suntour X1 original groupset. Replaced bottom bracket with NOS and built my own wheels on NOS 105 hubs. Rides like a dream...
Rear wheel spacing on 5 speed bike is 120mm. Six and seven is 126mm, and starting with 8 speed , is 130mm. Older bikes can be respaced (Bent) to fit different spacing, but then the rear dropouts need to be aligned, or you can have trouble.
I have an old Trek 620 touring bike, from the early 80's that was built with cantilever brakes and 27x1-1/4 wheels. A friend of mine, bought a late 90's steel race bike, that so tight in back, you couldn't ride with a wheel with a 25 on it. (it would rub on the brake bridge) You had to use a 23 in back.
In a coming video I'll be showing how rear spacing is achieved correctly with cold setting, while keep the frame in track.
In the 80s fag paper clearance was popular, but we tried to avoid going to right as you could find even a different brand or tyre in the same size wouldn't fit on some frames!
Thanks for watching!
[Six and seven is 126mm] Not necessarily! Some 7 spd hubs and axles required more, depending on the cog spacing, thus some would still index on index shifters set-up for six spd freewheels, others wouldn't, but would still need a couple more mm to clear the dropouts. Maillard (Atom and Sachs et al) were the latter. I still have two 7 spd hubs and spare cogs and spacers, as well as 6 spd, and I set them up as 6 spds and use a slighter shorter axle, even with the thicker spacers. The axles don't bend as easy! I still have a triple front, so lots of ratios possible and the overall width (28-13) stays the same. (I use a short cage rear derailleur which just handles a 28t)
In the event, one could squeeze a 7 spd w/ the slightly longer axle into the 126mm dropout spacing, but long story short, as I'm having the frame rebuilt at this time (one chainstay snapped in an accident), I've gone back to having it all aligned @ 126 mm, and using the 6 spd (I'm now using IRD Classica w/ Shimano springs and pawls, the IRDs were 'appawling'(sic) and so far, the conversion looks good. I'll keep this forum posted, as finding NOS freewheels is next to impossible, and the cheap ones around now are crap, and all three models of IRD are problematic)
you definitely can't buy decent new freewheels these days, which is a shame. I've tried the IRD ones and they are only marginally better than the cheap ones available.
You are right about axls breaking, which is why shimano changed to cassetter. Was an even bigger issue with MTBs!
@@ellisbriggsbikes I never had an axle break on me, but I would often have to replace them because I would notice that they were slightly bent when overhauling the hubs.
One freewheel type hub that I never had a problem with was the Sachs 8 speed freewheel hub. (yes, I said an 8 speed freewheel)
Funnily enough I have one of them somewhere! It has a part missing though unfortunately.
Love it. Just build my second old steel bike with modern components. Subscribed 🤜🤛
I saw your latest video. Keep up the good work. It's great to see these bikes getting upcycled (pun intended) and it's better for everyone if we do so. The bike industry is far too addicted to consumerism and it is meant to be a green industry!
@@ellisbriggsbikes thanks a lot. I know there are so many great frames out there 😍. But i m still learning how to find them and what to look out for.
Well my next video should be out this week and will cover common problems to look for when buying a pre-loved frame
Great Video
Thanks! I have some more to come. Thanks for watching!
@@ellisbriggsbikes I'm subscribed! I've already learned a bunch that I half knew, but now understand why (French tube sizes, etc)
That's great to hear!
I was recently given a 1988 frame with Columbus SLX tubing which I decided to build up with modern parts (but silver ones for the look) and I absolutely fell in love with it! I don't want anything other than high quality steel anymore.
Absolutely! It just pains me that the component manufacturers are ignoring all these classic bikes out there and just making parts for modern carbon frames.
@@ellisbriggsbikes indeed.. I've long been dreaming of starting a side business where I build up late steel era frames with modern parts to request for customers but I'm not sure yet whether it's a viable business
@@hananas2 well I get plenty of customers who want that. I'm not sure I could survive just off those alone though.
Can I convert a 1986 700c racing road bike (columbus) to fit 650b tires? I'm looking to add bigger randonneur style tires. Maybe lowering the brake bridge on the rear and brazing cantilever posts in the fork?
It is possible yes. As long as there is clearance for the width
Especificamente as bicicletas italianas são as mais chatas de se trabalhar por terem medidas e especificações e componentes muitos diferentes que se você tive algum dano em alguma dessas partes, sera difícil conseguir ou componente pra concerta ou substituir! Abraço, ótimo vídeo!
Thanks for watching!
Anything built for 5/6/7 speed ie before the 70s- late 80s will be 126mm between the rear drop outs- it will need re-spacing to 130 mm. Factor this cost in- it can be quite inexpensive or fairly pricey depending on the builder. Get it done by someone who knows what they are doing so the drop outs are realigned. Back in 2001 I had a Raleigh Road Ace taken out to 130 mm by Hewitts in Leyland Lancs- a perfect job -and I use this bike as a summer cafe ride bike. Repainted , with 10 speed Chorus , Neutron wheels, it still looks great.
Yes it is important that it is done by someone that know what they are doing. Otherwise the dropouts will be opened but the frame will know longer be in track!
is old steel frame conpatible using hollowtech 2 bottombracket sir?
Yes as long as it has British or Italian threads you can buy a bottom bracket to take ht2 cranks. It is even possible to fit cranks made for bb30 but it's not ideal
@@ellisbriggsbikes the frame is japanese 1980 keirin btw..
@@Kudasama shouldn't be a problem then 👍
@@ellisbriggsbikes ahh thanks sirr
80's american made steel frames are a safe bet when fitting modern parts. I have an 85 Trek and it's all the same as stuff as now but my early 90's colnago has odd sizes. 26.6(?) Seatpost and italian thread bb with seriously tight tyre clearance
26.8 is common for Columbus tubing. Just like your Trek, most of the frames we built in the late 80s will take modern equipment but will need re-tracking at the back to 130mm from 126mm, so they are ideal for retro builds and being Reynolds tubing, they take a 27.2 seat post :-)
Thanks for watching
@@ellisbriggsbikes yeah, the colnago is 26.8 and my sons mtb from 92 is 26.6...plus 1 1/8 threaded steerer...old MTBs are a another rabbit hole all their own 😆
True but they are also becoming very collectable now
that's the goal. i have a 86 Trek 760 that I plan to restomod with a nice groupset. 531c tubing
Sounds like it will be a great bike when finished
Typo in the title and a nice video
Thanks for that! Should of had my glasses on. Thanks for watching!
A proper accent!
Why would anybody want to replace a centerpull with a so-called "modern" brake? Keep that centerpull! The best rim brake ever.
I am a great beleiver in centre pulls. In fact the last generation of Shimano Dura ace, ultegra and 105 rim brakes are in fact centre pulls with a linkage. So I guess Shimano would agree with that too
Why would anyone want to put modern parts on a classic frame? For around 20 years I've been riding a 1973 Maserati MT-1 with full Campy Nuovo Record, period to the frame and everything works perfectly. I built it up myself from parts I got on eBay. It's the best bike I've ever owned and I've owned quite a few top end racing bikes. The only thing sort of modern are the Mavic clincher rims, which I got in the late 90s, and the tires, of course. I can't imagine installing anything modern - not only would it look ridiculous, but it would just not really ride like the bike was intended to. Kind of like how you don't load up classic cars with modern parts. Just doesn't make sense. There are tons of perfectly good old parts available for any sort of classic frame. Italian frame, Italian parts, French frame, French parts, English frame, English parts, etc. And those old parts are better than anything being made today. Maybe not as light, but stronger and more reliable, for sure.
I tend to get 2 types of customer. Those like yourself that want to keep everything original and those which want to modernise. It's up to me to make sure they are armed with the right information before they start.
For one thing customers have done this since they started buying our frames in the 30s and many of our frames have already had alterations and resprays at different periods in their life.
It's not always practical to have period parts on a bike. In Yorkshire for instance, the hills are steep and pedalling squares up steep climbs is not desired by many.
At the end of the day, if these older bikes are being ridden then that is good thing! :-)
Old kit doesn't have the gearing to easily get up hills.
And that is the killer reason why modern kit is beneficial
your tallking rubbish i got 1950s bike and its 28 not 26
I didn't say all bikes were 26. But we built many 26 x 1 bikes in the 40s and 50s. So before accusing me of talking rubbish, consider that we've been building bikes everyday since 1936! So obviously that's a lot of experience!
Anyway, thanks for watching!