BC19GNX - A close one
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- čas přidán 9. 05. 2024
- I hope you will be reading this before posting comments!
The road is barely 2 cars wide with very broken up edges and at the crossroads there is a badly sunken drain to the right in my direction of travel. I had overtaken the bike and was doing about 50 in a 60 limit and beginning to pull back to the left when the car, which had me in full view, began to pull out. I was forced onto a rough bit of road and, although it's not that clear in the film, the car was still rolling until I was about 10' from it! - Auta a dopravní prostředky
i was like "why are these guys driving on the left, that man was in the clear, why honk him?" then i realized brits still exist
@nightkido - ...and Australians, Kiwis, Maltese...
Thanks for the comment, one thing I was told while passing through Stratford On Avon on an advanced riding course is that tourists look the wrong way when stepping out into the road.
@TheRantyRider yea those other nations too. If they're driving in a different lane country then they might get away a few times by looking first in their original lane, realizing later it's opposite. Bad habit but something other drivers must be cautious about. The license plate you have written in the title seems to be Romanian ( BC 19 GNX ) if it isn't spaced out like that then I'm probably mistaken.
@nightkido -Thanks for the comment, in the UK we have a multitude of number plate layouts, ABC123 for old cars pre about 1963 when the ABC123D layout was introduced with the last letter being the year designator, then in about 1982 the format was reversed D123ABC with the first letter indicating the year and in 2001 we moved onto the current AB12CDE format. We also have ABC1234 in Northern Ireland and numbers only ie 12345 for the Channel Islands!
The first few times I saw Romanian numberplates I was surprised that the UK and Romania used the same format, but larger vehicles seem to use a different layout. To make sure I had the correct numberplate I also cross checked it and it came up with the correct UK registered car make, model and colour.
Irish drive on the left also.
Apologies, I missed the Irish. And Japanese.
Not much to do different.
The overtake was as far over as possible without hitting the ruts. You got back in before the junction. Good central location to be visible - however if the car somehow manages to see through/over the hedge, it wouldn’t have recognised you being over to the far right whilst overtaking, hence a bad idea to overtake at & approaching junctions.
You say 50, it seemed barely that pace, and if it were 50 I’d maybe do that approaching a junction on an A road but less still on an undefined road - made worse by the crossroads and visibility. I’d feel safer at 40 and if doing closer to 50 I know I’m rolling the dice - it only takes someone else’s single mistake.
I would’ve been more willing to brake harder and come to a stop. Is that right or your swerve - different answers on different days.
The reason this unfolds is that the car hasn’t bothered to look down the road properly before pulling out. If it has looked in your direction, it was before it reached the junction. It also seems to start its turn several feet before the give way line - it was pulling out no matter what unless a huge tractor came. Lazy. Local. It happens.
So that 5mph less might make a difference. Be safe.
@Scoupe400 - Thanks for the reply and comments. The wide angle of the GoPro type cameras can make it hard to judge speed and distances from the film, I was doing about 50 but it may seem less. Even without the cycle I would have been at a similar speed and position. The overtake was before the junction and I ended up in the position I would normally be in and, importantly, was moving laterally to the driver's view. Humans are evolved to pick up on movement so this can help draw attention to a bike and limits the effect of motion camouflage.
Due to the nature of the road surface braking harder would have been risky, ABS would disengage, not that the bike I was riding has it, and the horn and avoid was the better option.
The comment about the angle of the vehicle is interesting, the side road they are on is single track and you would need to angle on the exit where the road flares out slightly to make the turn avoiding the very sunken drain cover on the right hand side of the road. The road is actually wider here than along the rest of it's track which does not have the white lines in the centre as a car would only just 'fit'. The angle the car is at actually gives them a better view of me than if they were going straight over.
It certainly should give them a better view. I was jumping to step ten and assuming that rather than this being a safety choice, it was more likely one of laziness and expecting an empty road.
Indeed incidents and mistakes happen. And you dealt with it. I don’t really grasp the nay-sayers.
Stopping vs avoiding - yeh one if not both of those are better than indecision combined either target fixation lol. This is where practicing your bikes handling characteristics are so vital, so you know when you can brake harder or throw it sideways.
Best of luck.
With
Either
iPhone really struggles with the word ‘with’ and likes to reword. Utter garbage. Apologies.
@Scoupe400 No worries, I have had to edit comments as well, but usually because I haven't picked up on sepelilng mitsakes rather than the joys of autofill.
I'm too old to have had to undergo the brake/swerve of the CBT but I have taken a lot of courses in various bike disciplines from trials to road racing via the IAM and RoSPA advanced courses to improve my skills. Braking isn't always the answer, I used to teach that the first thing to do is look to go around while slowing in case you can't slow in time, and sometimes acceleration is key to getting out of danger. It's always a judgement call and you have to hope you get it right. If all else fails look for the softest thing to run into.
I unforutnately had experience of not being able to avoid a dink in 2017 as can be seen here czcams.com/video/a-uSUY9g1Mg/video.html and I really must get around to recording parts 4 and 5.
so what's the point of publishing his license plate? dense?
It's just easier than putting the description of the car down - and if I see it again I will know that it may do something stupid.
The phrase "people in glass houses" springs to mind, as you riding showed 2 faults.
When overtaking a cyclist, you must leave at least 1.5m (see Highway Code). This can be difficult on some roads, so one must be pragmatic and therefore you should leave as much space as possible and slow down. A vehicle travelling at 50mph+, including motorbike, can be terrifying when it passes a cyclist at 10mph.
Thereon, there was a road sign on the left before the junction warning you that those exiting have limited visibility. While the speed limit (not target) is 60mph, you need to expect vehicles will not see you in time, as they will be looking both ways.
In short, re-read the Highway Code and please slow down before you kill someone or yourself.
@A190xx - Thanks for the comment, in reply:
The HC states that you should, not must, leave at least 1.5 m, I had left about 2-2.5 m - rule 163 pp 64-65]. Must in the HC denotes a legal obligation, should implies that if you didn't and an incident occurs then you are more likely to be liable. There is also an obligation on cyclists to be aware of vehicles approaching from behind [no earbuds that stop you hearing them then]. I've never been terrified by a vehicle passing at any speed when giving the same clearance I had when I am out on my pushbike.
The road sign does not warn of restricted visibility, it warns of a crossroads ahead [HC pp 128]. The visibility when emerging from the junction is not restricted at the give way markings as can be seen as the car is clearly visible in the film as it emerges into my path. The HC states that vehicles at a junction are to pay extra attention when looking for cyclists and motorbikes [HC rule 170 pp68].
The 'limit not a target' is often trotted out, What speed would you have been doing along this road? As stated in the description I was doing appx 50 in full view of the car [I could see the driver] when they pulled out from a junction where vehicles doing 60 are clearly visible in either direction.
The expectation is that a vehicle will stop rather than pull out, well it should be but UK driving standards have dropped considerably post-Covid. Non-motorcycling car drivers tend to look for a vehicle that will hurt them if they pull out in front of it rather than if the road is clear. Worryingly I was told this in 1988 when getting my car licence and things haven't improved.
Now, what about the cyclist's perspective? A few seconds later they would have been on top of the junction, if the car driver had pulled out in front of them would you hold the cyclist at fault? They would have been less visible that I was due to their road position, but still visible from the junction. This road is also used for cycle time trials and races where cyclists often reach speeds approaching 30 MPH+.
@@TheRantyRider OK, so when you post a video criticising the driving of others, you will elicit counter views, as none of us is perfect with driving being a perpetual learning curve. I mean no malice in my comments and they are here for the debate and for other drivers to comment.
In response to your points:
1) Sorry, yes I do appreciate the difference between must and should, so I accept this is guidance not law, but, if you watch Blackbelt Barrister, it can be used against you in court were a cyclist to be injured.
2) Even so, the guidance says 1.5m at speeds under 30mph and more for greater. You suggest you gave 2-2.5m, but to me it looks like the road total width is 2.5m-3m and you were under 1.5m away - ie it looked like you could have touched hands. I was not there so fair enough.
3) The video quality was not clear enough to see the exact sign on my first viewing, but a crossroads sign makes it far worse. Both HC guidance and experience of country roads, says there is a huge risk of vehicles not stopping and going straight across, especially on country roads where the lines can become faded or road surfaces are slippery. I note it does not apply in this case, but I was both taught and learned from experience to be prepared to stop whenever I see a red triangle. These signs are explicitly sited to warn of dangers ahead, as your video demonstrates but you did not alter your speed.
4. I disagree there is clear visibility from what I can see in the video, especially wth the hedge at the junction. As best I can tell, it becomes visible at 6sec and you reach the junction at 8secs. And if it was visible, why did you not slow down earlier?
5. And yes, the HC gives guidance to the car, but, unless he is your nemesis intent on hurting you, he clearly did not see you either. Unlike you, who should be watching the road in front, he will be dividing his attention from left to right; and he did stop in time.
6. As stated in the HC, you should drive at the speed appropriate for the road conditions with the rough test of being able to stop in half the distance you can see ahead assuming an oncoming vehicle (coming over say the brow of a hill) can do the same. On straight sections with clear visibility ahead and no hazards, 60 mph is usually OK, but where there are bends, adverse surfaces or ANY red triangle road signs, then slower, as each warns of a hazard.
7. I agree driving standards have become worse with less police presence and reliance on cameras. The deterioration seems to be middle aged and older drivers, who develop bad habits and have never re-read the HC, so could never pass their test again. The worst habits are middle-laning, poor road position, failing to signal and pavement parking. In contrast to when I started, I find young drivers to be superior. Their lack of experience still means more reported accidents (older drivers tend to have the cash to avoid claims), but they have far fewer bad habits. Indeed, this exact situation is included in the new driver hazard perception test.
8) However, it is not my view that this video shows deteriorating standards, as I have experienced the same throughout my 30+ years of driving. I accept the car has not seen you and would have been responsible for any collision, but that is little comfort as you recover in hospital. However, I would have eased off slightly when passing the cyclists, slowed down when I saw the red triangle and been prepared to stop when I saw the car at the junction and not accelerated until I was 100% sure they had noticed me.
@A190xx - Thanks for replying, in reply:
1 - Absolutely, the HC is effectively the ACOP* for using the roads and uses "must" rather than "shall" as it's aimed at the general public. BBB has some good content, particulary in interpretation of judgements.
2 - I think this is best answered by the nature of the camera and where it is positioned, and i should have mentioned this in the description. The wide angle cameras such as the one used to record this distort distances a bit, as I mentioned in the description the road is barely two cars wide, meaning that two can pass but a car and van means they will both be almost one wheel in the gutter, so it's about 5 m wide. When passing the cyclist the distance was more like 2.5 m, probably more. The camera is mounted on my left morror stalk, so about 4-5" from the end of the handlebar rather than on my helmet, this also means that the viewpoint is lower.
3 - I had reduced my speed to below the limit and positioned for view. An argument can always be made for slowing, but this can cause other problems like an emerging vehicle assuming either that the vehicle on the main road is going to stop before the junction to let them out [the side roads are single track], but also they may pull out as they think they have time.
4 - The view out of the junction is actually quite good compared with some others in the area, the hedgeline is set back as there is a ditch between it and the verge, which is also quite wide, have a look at about the 7 second mark. The road is also straight so there is plenty of visibiliy when emerging, especially if you lean forwards. I have used this junction a lot when inspecting at a site accessed via the road the car emerges from.
5 - Looking at the film again there is a second or so where I am slowing before the previously stopped car begins to emerge and I sound my horn. I was slowing as the car inched forwards which some do to improve view. I'm doing another avanced course soon as it's been a while since my last one and in the 'homework' these is an interesting section about looking, if you look too quickly you don't have time to process the information and miss things, especially bikes and horses as they are thinner than cars. Now, I did mention that the camera is on the mirror stalk, this puts it at least 18" below my eyeline and what I could see, but isn't clear in the film is that the car had stopped and the driver looked my way, so we both had a clear view of one another.
6 - I had slowed and slowed again as the vehicle inched forwards before it began to pull out. One tendancy over the last 10 years, particulary in the area where I live is to have sharp bend signs and chevrons for almost any deviation from straight on. This leads to people being blase about warning signs places where they are actually needed. An example is the A361 from Banbury to Daventry where pretty much every bend has chevrons, and I've seen a Police car doing at least 80 around them [it's now a 50 limit] easily staying on it's own side of the road.
7 - Younger drivers show in the statistics more because there are a lot of them about. a lot of comparisons are 17-25 and 60+ i would imagine that the population of the younger cohort is larger than the older. Statistics are easily skewed, especially when insurance companies can profit. Several years ago there was a study that showed you were more likely to be in a car accident if you had a Z in the numberplate. I had to check it wasn't Radio 4's April Fool's Day joke and the earnest researcher obviously didn't understand that when the new format numberplates came out the three letters at the end started at ZZZ then ZZY, ZZX and so on so each registration district would register over seventeen and a half thousand cars before not having a Z in the plate, but as each change in the first letter reset the second and third to ZZ [YZZ, YZY, YZX] there would be a skew to a Z being on the numberplate.
I also think that the power of cars doesn't help younger drivers. The car I had access to when I passed my test was the family Allegro [didn't have the square steering wheel though] with a 0-60 time of about Tuesday and it felt like it would fall apart at 60. No power steering, ABS or ESC meant that if you did get it wrong the car wouldn't help you out. It didn't even have rear seatbelts! With 'facing' new drivers can get a pretty quick off the mark car that they can get caught out in, and no doubt young males will show off, it's evolutionary. Luckily most get away with it and learn, but some don't.
8 - I know, a car that was facing me for at least 5 seconds turned across me, the witness statement from the car behind him said that she could see me through his windscreen and couldn't believe he turned. Not that it made a broken arm, couple of ribs, three breaks in my right leg and assorted internal injuries any less painful.
If the camea was helmet mounted it would have shown more clearly that the driver had me in view, but they were doing a SMIDSY. Hopefully if they are local they will have a second look before pulling out in future, and the explanation of where the camera is mounted clears up the points you made about the passing distance which were perfectly valid not knowing the camera's location.
*To readers who haven't heard the term Approved Code Of Practice, in the UK this is a 'laymans' interpretation of a law or set of regulations. The ones I used to deal with were significantly longer than the legislation to explain what is required and included the sections of legislation in sidebars.
@@TheRantyRider All fair points and hopefully good content for your readers.
@A190xx Cheers, and thanks for bringing up points that needed a bit of clarification, if I have footage in future that may be ambiguous due to the camera position I'll try to remember to mention it.