Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin | Chamber of Secrets
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
- Join J and Ben as they dive into Chapter 17 of the Chamber of Secrets and discuss the appearance of the Chamber, the founders, not realizing Tom is the bad guy, Ginny’s possession, anagrams, Fawkes, the Basilisk fight, Ginny’s explanation, and escaping the Chamber.
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Show Notes:
Salazar Slytherin Is STILL Alive?! - • Salazar Slytherin Is S...
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Chapters:
00:00 - Intro and Chapter Art
04:33 - Chapter Breakdown
1:20:05 - Closing Thoughts and Review
Edited by :: Ethan Edghill
#ThroughtheGriffinDoor #HarryPotter #SuperCarlinBrothers
I slowly am thinking this podcast is SuperCarlin Brother's plot to pitch their founder series to HBO
Personally, I hope it works 😂
Hey, whatever works!
If it works, it works 😅 I hope it does 😁😂
Shhhh don’t give away the secret.
If that doesn't happen, I hope they write their own anyway. It would be amazing.
1:30 You could say that bird really Fawkes up Riddles plans.
😂😂😂😂😂
nice
Fawkes showed up and was like “Riddle me this” and then destroyed some eyeballz
@@CrazyMuggleGirl Leave the puns to the professionals.
that's Fawked up!
One of my favorite lines from Ginny in Order of the Phoenix is when they discuss Voldemort's possession. Harry says he had forgotten about Ginny being possessed, and Ginny gives a scathing, "Good for you." I think it's a great illustration of how Harry views Ginny as not at all responsible or at fault for any of this, while for Ginny its a scar that will never really heal.
That scene as a whole was great, and Rowling really should have made it longer or included more conversations between Harry and Ginny along those lines.
That's also a very important scene for the Harry/Ginny-relationship. For the first time Ginny is able to help Harry with a serious issue, for the first time Harry opens up towards Ginny with a personal question.
I think this is the moment when Harry starts to think about Ginny as a friend for herself, not just as his best mate's sister. And, additionally, he realizes that he and Ginny have something in common (beeing deeply effected by Voldemort) what even Ron and Hermione will never be able to fully understand.
It's also the first indication we have of Ginny's strength. She suffered a horrendous trauma at a very young age, but it didn't break her. If anything, it may have spurred her on to fight Voldemort even more fiercely in later years.
Big agree
Theory: Phoenix songs are used as kind of an echo location when a Phoenix is teleporting, so they dont teleport into a solid place, and kind of get a lay of the land before arriving.
This is what I was thinking. That would make sense for why it felt like it was originating in Harry, since Fawkes was probably figuring out exactly where Harry was and what he needed help with.
That is an awesome theory!!! I hope they see your comment.
And or it works because some sort of temporal echoing back across the time from when the Phoenix appears there moments later
@@killerfudgetastic OMG!!!!! This could be what the deluminator concept was inspired by!!!
I’m so glad you guys aren’t afraid to point out the issues with the story. No one can claim you don’t like the series and it’s nice to see fans recognize the imperfections without it taking away from the enjoyment. At the end of the day no story is 100% perfect but as long as the good out weigh the bad by enough they are easy enough look past.
It also gives me reassurance for my own stories 😂
I wouldn't even say they are imperfections, they are just elements of basic storytelling.
My name is Griffyndor. So at my office, I have a griffyn door-knocker. Lol.
Well my name is Slytherin. The entrance is underground, so you have to slither in. Lol.
So raven claw you have to claw your way in?
And hufflepuff you have to puff your way in?
@@Foxfire-xq5ijhe huffs, and he puffs...
I love the idea that Salizar and Godric bonded over their love of ban puns.
No wonder they have heirs - they were clearly Dads
I remember being 9 or 10 years old, sitting in bed, at least one hour after my bedtime when I came to the point where young Riddle moved the letters and I JUMPED out of bed, grabbed a piece of paper and wrote down "Tom Vorlost Riddle ist Lord Voldemort" and being blown away. XD
I did the EXAXT Same thing😂
BTW it's nor vorlost, it's marvolo.
@@mrphantom877it is German bro. The middle name has been changed because in German it is : “ist” and not “I am”
@@alexc.3419 ohh wow, I didn't know that.
I am from Pakistan so I have watched the movies in hindi but it didn't change the name in that version?
The idea that someone can be a true Gryffindor without being descended from Gryffindor actually plays into the Gryffindor vs Slytherin dynamic, if one thinks of being "a true Gryffindor" as being equivalent to "Heir of Gryffindor", but it it's *_Slytherin/Slytherin House_* who's oɓsessed with ʙloodlines.
Yeah I like this a lot more. Kinda the whole point is that anyone can be a Gryffindor. I much prefer that your bloodline just doesn't matter. It's your attitude that does.
Can't believe we got a Ship of Theseus convo about wand lore. Love to see it.
I noted that to myself when they got to that point.
book 3 will go so hard can't wait
At this point the actual ring is still hidden in the Gaunt shack, so if the diary version of Tom Riddle is wearing the ring, it would disappear as he becomes real in the present day.
As a foreign viewer, I grew up watching and reading in Italian but nowadays I read and watch everything in English, translations are amazingly done but the original is still much better
Do you prefer the original version of the book in English or how you originally read it?
@CunningStunt92 books I prefer English, sometimes for the movies I like the familiar dubbed voice I grew up with but for new movies and shows definitely English
Did the Salazar statue spend the entire battle of Hogwarts just banging on the door to the Chamber trying to get out and join the fight along with all the other statues when McGonagall cast the spell to bring them all alive??
I think the spell only works over the soldiers/guards
The Chamber does get opened during that fight when Ron and Hermione go to get some fangs to destroy the horcruxes.
@@SilverDeath12 I forgot about that... Never liked that part of the story. Now I have 2 problems with the Battle of Hogwarts...
@@tjmaraven The spell gave freedom of movement to all the statues and suits of armour throughout the castle.
The only limitations I assume were either: distance, knowledge of the statues itself, or just possibly a long standing protection that Hogwarts has and only the Head and deputy head know about how to command them...
Yes it did
As a Pole about reading books in English.
As a child I was reading books in Polish (of course I didn't know English enough back then). Now, as an adult I read book in English, but:
1. You need to be practically fluent to understand it and catch a lot of nuances. It is especially challenging, because Rowling invented A LOT of new, various words and you need to have quite big knowledge of English vocabulary to be able to understand them. Of course, you can read it earlier with average English skills, but you will miss out a lot.
2. Polish translation is VERY GOOD. Andrzej Polkowski did a truly fantastic job converting all those crazy vocabulary into Polish language - he had really good intuition when to translate a word and when to leave it in English (like he did with almost all surnames). Usually I prefer originals, but HP series is so well translated I have no problems sticking with Polish version.
What is Tom's middle name in Polish? And do any of the other characters have their names changed to keep a play on words working?
@@menachemsalomon It`s the same - Tom Marvolo Riddle.
I think that the only one surname that was translated was the one of Cornelious Fudge - it was translated to Cornelious Knot (ang. Wick (part of a candle)). In Polish we have a word derived from "knot" - "sknocić", which basically menas "to hash/ mock/ botch/ bungle/ ect." (I don`t know which one would carry polish meaning the best but I`m sure you get the vibe).
The polish Translator stated that he had a rule to not translate any of the names, but in this case the temptation was too strong. :)
Harry does say "help me."
When he's in Myrtle's bathroom and tries to say "open" to the gnarly on the faucet, Ron shakes his head and says, "English." Then Harry imagines the snake moving and then says "open" again and the sink opens up.
Harry can hardly tell when he's using parseltongue unless he's really paying attention. He can't tell Morphin is speaking in parseltongue in the memory, and Harry can't understand why the ministry guy can't understand him till Dumbledore tells Harry to listen closer.
So, yeah, Harry can command the basilisk. Well done, Carlin Brothers!
Regarding sacrificial protection, there is a difference (in the HP universe at least) between sacrificing yourself to save another person and specifically being given a real choice, where the person would actually live if the declined to die. The only reason in book seven that Harry’s sacrifice counts is that Voldemort specifically gave him the choice.
Wow chamber of secrets has flown by
"You don't want a pointy needle thingy!"
In the sword community they call that a rapier.
I love the idea of Salazar Slytherin coming back. You hit the nail on the head when you said you dealt with the heir of slytherin now you deal with the real Salazar Slytherin.
What if we explain the statue being giant by saying Sal/the founders were giants? I don’t like that idea. An idea I DO like is that perhaps the founders were from a time before the evolutionary (or magical) divergence of humans and giants. 🤯🤔
Sal having been magically enlarged is prolly the ideal explanation though🤷♂️
Or what if he, for whatever the reason, was petrified and entombed in the gaint statue. An " accident " with the basilisk.
Seriously someone needs to hire them to write the founders series. They are so meticulous with making sure a plot holds up, their comedy is on point, they know the material inside and out. It would be amazing
Quite Madara Uchiha style
PERFECT TIMING I was literally just thinking about the two's interaction in the movie and how well acted it was from both sides!
They picked the PERFECT person to play teenage Tom! After seeing the movies, it just seems so much more impactful when reading the books and having that image! Especially the writing when he reconfigured his birth name into Lord Voldemort with the wand! That scene was so good 😂
I love the idea that the founders are actually brothers and sisters and are the four from the chronicles of Narnia.
49:25 As a child I read the first 4 books in my native language (Dutch) because my library had those, but after that when I got my own ones I got them in English and have been reading and listening in English! I just like reading/watching things in their original language if it's still possible for me to understand :)
My head canon is that Hagrid in his 3rd year is the best in the school at Care of Magical Creatures since Newt and that’s what draws Riddle’s notice.
Or maybe it's the fact he's a half-giant?
I do like to think that there's a very unusual friendship there, at least for a time. How else would Riddle know about Aragog?
If the theory of Salazar Slytherin remaining in the Chamber of Secrets forever is to be believed, perhaps (one of) Salazar's children put him in there forever. I imagine that in his old age, Salazar requested that his adult child(ren) come with him to the Chamber. He tells them about his severed bonds with the other Founders, highlighting the pain he felt with the split between him and Godric. He also tells them about the concerns he has about keeping magic with already magic families, but the family is so distraught with the story of the schism and Salazar's grief that they mistake the concern for outright hatred and prejudice. Salazar calms his child(ren) down, noting that no matter what, he will be with them, and that every heir of Slytherin has the key to this Chamber. He gives his heirs his precious locket, summoning the young Basilisk to them in Parseltongue and telling them to use their resources well. He then makes his final request: to remain in the chamber forever. Grief-stricken, the heir(s) of Salazar call upon the Basilisk themselves to petrify Salazar, making the Chamber of Secrets his final resting place. This would also give the Gaunt family more generational trauma to solidify their insanity.
Here's another crazy theory: Godric Gryffindor himself is Faukes. This is just a personal theory based on other theories, but here me out.
- We know that Dumbledore says that a Phoenix will come to any Dumbledore in a time of need.
- There's the theory that Faukes also belonged to Godric himself.
- There's another theory that Dumbledore is a descendant of Godric Gryffindor.
- There's ALSO your theory that members of the Dumbledore family become phoenixes upon death.
- There's the theory that Godric Gryffindor knew about Salazar's Basilisk.
- Faukes is extremely intuitive and intelligent beyond reason of being just an immortal creature. Knowing where the Chamber is? Having the good sense to bring the hat to summon the sword? Blinding the Basilisk? That's a lot of good thinking there. Too good.
Yes, I'm not sure how Godric would try to take the diary when he didn't know anything about it. Nobody knew. And we don't know how a human would become a phoenix in death, anyway. But I still like this theory.
Fun fact about the Brazilian translation: the anagram was translated as "TOM SERVOLEO RIDDLE => EIS LORD VOLDEMORT". The second part means "Behold Lord Voldemort". The truly interesting bit is that after CoS, Voldemort's second name, the name of his grandfather, was instead Servolo. Tom Servolo Riddle, Servolo Gaunt. For some reason they dropped the second E there. I suppose it was done to make it more pleasing to say and read, but without it the anagram wouldn't work in retrospect.
I'm from Brazil and as a kid I read the books in portuguese as the translated versions were released. After this discussion I had to get my old copy and Voldemort's name was changed to Tom Servoleo Riddle and it didnt spell "I am Lord Voldemort" but rather something like "'Tis Lord Voldemort" when translated back to English which I always thought was always an odd choice as a kid but as I grew older and realized it was a translation thing I think they actually did a good job in changing as little of the actual name and meaning of the message. Anyway, I tend to read or listen to Harry Potter books every few years and I love how much this podcast makes that magic feeling last every single week
I like the idea of Hagrid being in Slytherin because it adds depth to the fact that it was him (not Ron, like in the movies) who told Harry that all dark wizards were in Slytherin, which ultimately leads to Harry asking the sorting hat to not put him in Slytherin. Maybe Hagrid was a Slytherin and resented his time there, or blamed his own slytheriness for the wrongs that he did.
This has to be my favourite episode of this podcast so far (and I've watched them all!). Maybe people will find this a bit too hard to follow but I loved it, especially mixing in all your theories and jumping from book to book to movie to fantastic beasts I loved that.
Hey guys! Love the show, never missed an episode.
i read in my native language (portuguese, i'm from brazil) but i've been meaning to buy the english edition for awhile to compare with translated books that i have, its just very expensive unfortunely.
to be fair, i think they did a good job in the brazilian edition. it says TOM SERVOLEO RIDDLE and the reveal is EIS LORD VOLDEMORT (in this case, "Eis" is an old school term, not very used, for "Behold", so it says "Behold Lord Voldemort.")
Please make your own founders series 🙏 I beg you! The little taste of how it could be in the beginning of the podcast was amazing already. Jay and Ben you two are the only ones who would write it properly. ❤
Not Ben referencing Voldemorts laugh in DH Pt 2 like its not infamously iconic
The first book I read when growing up, was in Dutch, but I read half the series in English.
Fun fact, in Dutch Snape is written Sneep, which is a phonetic translation, in Dutch Sneep is pronounced as Snape. But I read the name with in my mind I was reading a translation, so I pronounced Sneep as it would have been pronounced in English. It made perfect sense to me that Snape’s name would connote with creep and sneak. 😂
The SWORD-IN-HAT just blew my mind! I never looked at it that way but knowing Ro’s love to a good pun, I can see her wording it like that on purpose
Just like the Room of Requirement: Think of the podcast and low behold it shall appear! Deep diving into these chapters like pulling off the Wronski Feint! Your satirical/ philosophical and practical commentary is greatly appreciated on each of these chapters. Thank you so much, Brothers! My wife and I adore this series. Have to say - think your take on Harry's sorting into Slytherin and the Bassilisk character development rivalled the origional writing and made for very Compelling storytelling! Love from Leicester UK
Idk anything about a "wonky faint", but I agree, favorite podcast
Haha nice reply Hermionie! Yeah it's brilliant isn't it 😀
@@alexworld1992 some would say bloody brilliant.
Happy Mother’s Day to the Super Carlin Mothers!!
The Super Carlin Brothers' Harry Potter podcast is a magical delight for fans. J and Ben Carlin's witty banter, deep knowledge, and genuine passion for the wizarding world create an engaging and enjoyable listening experience. Their seamless blend of humor and insightful analysis, coupled with a palpable chemistry, makes each episode a must-listen for both casual and devoted Potter enthusiasts!
Theory question: It never made sense for me that Harry is so affected by Dementors. It seems unlikely that Harry could remember Voldemort killing his parents, especially the details of what Lily and James were saying, given that he couldn't speak yet. And James was in different area of the house, so Harry could not hear him. What if it's not Harry's own memory haunting him, but rather Voldemort's worst nightmare of "dying" that's causing Harry to faint?
… THIS IS BRILLIANT!!!
I would love to see them discuss this question, I wonder if it has something to do with the piece of Voldemort's soul in Harry? Perhaps that piece of soul is why he can remember those details
i think they already have discussed this exact thing :)
@@Zenipyra hello! That is exactly what I am thinking! It is Voldemort's worst, most traumatic memory, not Harry's. And it's Voldemort's emotions causing harry to faint. Of course the memory is still terrible for Harry, but because he find out what happened and why, and not that as a child he was fully aware what was going on.
Headcanon, if it's true the threat of expulsion dies down after this year: the teachers realized part of the problem was that Ginny's terror of expulsion prevented her from seeking help and so they revamped the rules to clarify how expulsion would work and created a much more just system include a hearing and appeals and also clarified what things would not get you expelled or how many offenses it would be or whatever. So that kids wouldn't be so scared of being expelled they wouldn't bring up, like, possibly being possessed by dark magic.
The basilisk giving Harry the hat and the sword that wins the fight kinda thematically shows again how the love and trust between Griffindor and Slytherin during their friendship is stronger than the hate that came from their falling out.
Italian listener here! I started reading Harry Potter when I was really young (about 7/8 y.o), so obviously it was in italian - some years after I started reading and listening to it in its original version - which I prefer - but I have to say it's still fascinating to see the differences between the two languages and the changes in the translations over the years. Example: Tom Orvoloson Riddle (io sono Lord Voldemort - I am LV).
Ps: started following you on youtube long ago and now this podcast is one of my favourite moments of the week!! Perfect work guys, good luck with the tour ♥️
The amount of times Harry just throws his wand to the side is ridiculous! It's amazing to me that he never loses it! Same with the invisibility cloak. I mean... Jeese kid, Learn to take care of your possessions!
#bringbackthebronze #Ravenclaw 🦅🤎💙🤎💙🦅
36:45
There aren't trolls in the forest ANYMORE, Hagrid saw to that
I hadn't realised how much your "What if Harry was in Slytherin" series has altered my mental canon - I'd totally forgotten the basilisk dies in the actual story. You reading out that bit came as quite the surprise 😂
Ha, I've read these books so many times and in my head I was sure the message on the wall was written in blood. I figured it was rooster blood. Don't know how I had forgotten the paint explanation.
in the movie Hermione says it's written in blood
@@edwardroberson8634 Yeah, that may be overwriting my memories of the book.
You guys are almost right about Tom Riddle’s name in French ! His full name is Tom Elvis Jedusor for it to make « Je suis Lord Voldemort » ! The more you know 🙃 P.S. I love the show, I listen you every time when I’m driving to work, keep your amazing work going!
16 year old Voldemort was still somehow innocent enough to think that the people who tolerated him were his friends. It wasn’t until he entered the retail industry he learned otherwise. That’s his true Villain origin.
The first 16 min were amazing of J and ben just rambling 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂!!!! Slytherin and Godric were besties!!!
I think Barty Crouch Jr should have been an actor. He stuck to character FOR A YEAR so well that it ended up screwing his own plans.
One of the mysteries from this Chapter was how the music showed up before fawkes flash/fired/apparated into the Chamber. It made me think of when Ron was separated from Harry/Hermione and clicked the deluminator, he heard Hermione's voice, before he apparated. Perhaps the type of apparation that is used for the deluminator is different than the normal wizarding one, like the difference that dobby's apparation has. But unlike the House elf type, it is phoenix specific, and connects the destination and the source through music/sound (already noted to be strong magic) maybe using the show of love/loyalty to create a link upon which the person/object/creature teleports. This would give hints at both how the deluminator works, and how the music showed up before the Fawkes did.
To answer the international reader question, my parents read me the German versions of the first two or three books, then I wet up to Half Blood Prince in German and eventually switched to English for Deathly Hallows because the English version came out slightly earlier than the German one at my local book store and I didn't want to wait. I have yet to read Deathly Hallows in German.
In case you are wondering, Riddle's middle name is Vorlost in German. (they also renamed Marvolo Gaunt to Vorlost Gaunt). I don't even know if that's a real name. Almost makes him sound like a distant relative of Sherlock Holmes.
HEAR ME OUT: In royalty the HEIR can be someone else from family than the direct child of the person. It could be even someone not related, but worthy to inherit because of some noble deeds or completing a quest. What if Heir of Slytherin doesn't have to be born to it, but instead be worthy?
It would mirror nicely with Sword of Gryffindor showing only to true Gryffindor at specific circumstances. Could the locket work in similar way, working only for "true Slytherin".
I kinda like that for Slytherin bloodline actually matters, while for Gryffindor it doesn't. Slytherin had a whole thing with blood status after all. It was Gryffindor that wanted to admit muggle-born wizards. It makes it even more ironic that the heir of Slytherin is a half-blood.
@@jaspermooren5883 you are right, the pure-blood was supposed to be the Slytherin's trope. And as you said, it was ironic, that his Heir was half blood. So Slytherin assumed, that his descendant would be pure-blood... he could assume the same with the "worthy Heir" - that only pure blood would be parseltounge and so worthy to open the Chamber and take care of his pet snake?
@@jaspermooren5883 the other "irony" about this would be that both Harry and Voldemort are possible Slytherins Heirs, as they both speak parseltongue. What is more, assuming that Slytherin was not actually a bad guy, and his legacy was misinterpreted, maybe it is Harry who is his true Heir, as he would use the snake for protecting the school, not for evil. And it would fit nicely into "what if Harry when to Slytherin" theory :) It would parallel that Voldemort want's to be Master of Death / Heir of Slytherin, but in the end it is Harry who becomes one.
@@OlaGawle Harry is not really an heir though. The only reason he can speak parseltongue is that he has a piece of Voldemort inside him, it's that part inside him that can open the chamber. It's not mentioned in the books, but I think it's likely he actually lost the ability to talk to snakes after the forbidden forest in the Deathly Hallows. Harry is not the Heir of Slytherin, Voldemort's piece inside him is. It is yet another reason where Voldemort really screwed himself over by making Harry a horcrux.
The "Nhehehehe" clip is wonderful and I love you guys use it so dang much!
I am Estonian, I read the first four books originally in Estonian as they were coming out and from the age of 14 onwards, the last three books in English. I listen the audiobooks and read e-books in English, but now that the podcast is out, I bought the Jim Kay illustrated editions in Estonian and am reading along in Estonian for the first time in 20 years… :) Tom Marvolo Riddle is Tom Marvolon Riddle in the Estonian version, it becomes MINA (meaning I or me) LORD VOLDEMORT.
Love the podcast!
There's kind of a secondary tragedy behind the story of Barty Crouch Jr. A lot of what he chose to do basically amounted to doing what his dad _didn't_ want, because said dad was so horrible to him. And since Senior was on the side of Good, that pushed Jr towards Evil. But therein lies the issue. Barty Crouch Sr. was on the right side of the fight, but was a pretty crappy dude all-around. And he was punished for that by losing the son he mistreated and ultimately even being killed by that very son.
It's not enough to take the right side of an argument. You have to actually behave the right ways on top of that. So many people even in real life miss this fact. They think that as long as their cause is just, their actions are automatically justified. You're already wrong about that even if your cause IS just, but on top of that, so many people mistakenly treat an unjust cause as just, and it gets screwed up even more. Just look at the Purebloods. In their minds they're doing the right thing for the right people, and why should it matter how badly they treat those who fight against their noble cause? After all, they're savages. They have no morals. They steal their magic from the more deserving witches and wizards out there. Why should they be treated as equals?
It's simply amazing how many real world groups hold beliefs almost indistinguishable from these, even seeking to use the government to identify and shun their own personal "mudbloods" the same way as the Corrupted Ministry eventually does. Not to go all Godwin's Law, but this is not a new idea. It's been done, in real life, before. And it is our go-to example of one of the greatest horrors the world has ever seen.
And real people want to do it again, and feel perfectly justified in doing so.
Please double-check your beliefs and ensure that you do not view any human beings the way the Death Eaters view muggle-borns. Because if you do, that is a PROBLEM, no matter how much sense it makes in your head.
I'll be frank, I never did get the hate of the Ministry.
Fudge I understand. I think he's seen as way more unreasonable than he is, but I get why others hate him. I can even imagine why people hate Scrimgeour. Crouch, though?
Now, don't get me wrong. He's not a likable individual. But I read him as an interesting blend of pragmatic and pure belief. We know he genuinely cares about rules and proper procedure, but also that he is not afraid to temporarily sacrifice them.
What needs to be understood is Crouch did his most controversial deeds in the context of a full-scale civil war between the government and the Death Eaters. If you don't think that excuses anything, then you should want Harry in Azkaban for life. In the Second Wizarding War, he used two out of three Unforgivable Curses. One way ticket to Azkaban. And he didn't even have government license to do so.
Moody only killed when absolutely necessary, that is the line often drawn. And good for Moody. Really. But not everyone was as good as he was. Crouch probably understood that the Ministry forces couldn't afford to hesitate to kill when push came to shove. Not instituting a 'lethal force authorized' policy could well have put the government troops at risk. The moral debates could come after the killing was over. This is frankly a perfectly normal response to war. I will remind you that a lot of Death Eaters who weren't killed escaped to wreak more havoc in the Second Wizarding War. Neither Moody nor Crouch could have foreseen that, but the evidence kind of seems to back Crouch.
Voldemort was an extremist. He had to be stopped. The killing wouldn't stop until he was. In that light, Crouch with his brutal ruthlessness was working hard to stop the slaughter. Now, we know his campaign was ultimately without real hope, but would he deserve to be remembered more kindly had he not tried everything?
Even his 'convictions without trial' led to exactly one known case of wrongful conviction. And even Dumbledore thought he was guilty. But assuming there were dozens of people wrongly jailed, their cases could always be reviewed post-war. Crouch wasn't out to start a reign of terror, he wanted to be (and was to many) the hero who beat back the Dark.
Ultimately, Crouch was a good soldier and a good strategist. He chose the right side, ever loyal to his Ministry, and did all he could to see it win.
Now, none of that leaves a man without fault, of course. To me (Ancient History Master) he feels very... Roman. Supremely ambitious, highly pragmatic, though all within the context of serving the State. He clearly was out to get the top job. But he sought it by genuinely doing what he felt was the best. His imbalance really shows in his too long neglected home life. While he certainly loved his wife, he wasn't the best husband, and he was a lousy, absentee father, indeed to the point of leaving his son vulnerable to extremists - ironically the very ones he was fighting. He absolutely deserves to be called out for forgetting his family needed him, too. But it's hard not to see how he'd get caught up in this war thing and so desperately want to 'end this destructive conflict and bring order'.
He wasn't a nice guy. He was very unlikable. But I don't see a bad man in him. A man who lost his way perhaps. Definitely one who lost balance. But not evil.
As to the 'Purebloods', those are NOT a monolith. Hell, the people pushing Pureblood supremacy aren't even Pureblood themselves. I think Umbridge is a half-blood. Voldemort doesn't even mean it; he's only interested in his own power and glory. And this actually makes sense. If you are a pureblood, and you honestly believe in pureblood supremacy, why should you care what 'inferiors' think? You need to get violent when you're insecure.
Actual purebloods hold a variety of positions from fully on board with Voldemort and his (stated) views, like Bellatrix Lestrange; non-militant Voldemort supporters (the parents of Sirius Black); casually pureblood supremacist, but really just out for their own profit (Malfoys); madmen on Voldemort's leash (Crouch Jr.); repentant Voldemort supporters (Regulus); loyal State supporters erring on the side of ruthlessness (Crouch); good soldiers fighting the good fight (Moody); former bullies grown up to war heroes (James Potter, Sirius Black); genuine heroes (Longbottoms, Prewitts); and Muggle lovers ('blood traitors') (the Weasleys). This assumed 'everyone else is barely even human ' attitude exists in a fraction of purebloods. Probably not even in a majority of the ones we meet.
I'm sorry if I sounded overly harsh. It was not my intention to deny your argument has merit, and it certainly didn't lack in eloquence. However, I do think it was flawed, and the disdain commonly found towards the Ministry and purebloods feels exaggerated and unwarranted to me.
@@JustFlemishMe A truly excellent comment. I have no complaints with any of it.
My use of Pureblood in that spot was imprecise. I was trying to explicitly limit it to "pureblood supremicists", but shortened it too far. My mistake. Though if it led to a comment like yours, I'm almost glad I messed it up :P (But not actually glad)
@@riluna3695 Ah, yes, that does change the meaning a fair bit!
I'm very glad you liked it! Thank you for your lovely response!
One thought to Barty Crouch jr: I could imagine that his "career" as a deatheater started with being rebellious against his father, aginst the father who cared only for his work and not for his son (only when he could brag with his son's success at school). Perhaps he thought subconciously "If I BECOME his work, than he's forced to pay attention to me as his son."
I also think that he wasn't a complete convinced deatheater before he was sent to Azkaban. He was more like just freshly a deatheater who hadn't done horrendous things yet. Presumably his job was just to deliver information about his father's work.
I would imagine after Voldemort's downfall he just didn't know what to do and when Bellatrix asked him to join her, her husband and brother-in-law to "interrogate" the Longbottoms, he just followed and was shocked how brutal and ruthless the three of them acted.
Later then after his father sent him to Azkaban, freed him from there just to held him captive in his own house, his hatred for his father grew over the years and he wanted nothing more than make the opposite of his father's greatest goal - to overcome every dark wizard - come true and that was to help Lord Voldemort back to power.
So, in the end, Barty Crouch sr. was the reason why his son became one of the most loyal deatheaters.
If Fawkes presents itself to a true Gryffindor, he'd be appearing much more often to Gryffindors in both Wizarding Wars. Fawkes came to Harry when Harry proved his unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore, making him an unoffivial "Dumbledore" that Fawkes would come to.
I always read that moment with Tom getting Harry's wand as one of those jump scare ghost scenes. I thought he popped over there when Harry was distracted, then popped back exactly where he was. It highlights Tom's manipulative and sneaky nature, especially when he was younger. Plus, he is still misty/horcrux soul at this point. I think it reminds the reader that we don't actually have any reason to believe he has to move like a real person yet.
Greetings from germany,
I like your podcast and it's always interesting to find new hints and meanings in the story. As a non-native-english-speaker I need more focus and time to read these books in english. It is also more likely that I miss something. For example I have a hard time picturing the tree when reading about wand woods in english. Therefore I planned to use a dictionary when I got my deathly hallows book back in summer 2007. It took me 20 minutes to go through the first page, then I ditched the dictionary, started reading and was done after 1.5 days.
Read the books in Dutch for the first time, because I was a child and barely knew English. Any subsequent readings of it has all been in English (pretty much everything I read nowadays is in English). And I write in English as well.
I‘m from Germany and I only listen to the German audiobooks, because neither Jim Dale nor Stephen Fry come even close to the German narrator Rufus Beck.
Maybe it’s just my own nostalgia, but he has such huge variety of voices, dialects and accents, that are always spot on and informative the character’s personalities.
German also has maybe the best variation of Voldemorts middle name: Vorlost
Sounds much more „ancient“ and menacing than Marvolo, in my opinion at least.
As someone who hasn’t read the book in a very long time. I went by the movies canon. And to this day, I thought that it was roosters blood on the walls, not red paint.
I just want to say that you guys are awesome! I’ve finally gotten my mom to start the books when I told her you guys started an after chapter podcast. She loves the movies but just hasn’t read the books yet. She loves to watch all your theories and videos with me and since the podcast started we’ve read multiple chapters a day together. We’re a little behind since we started after the podcast aired but catching up fast. We’re on chapter 7 of The Philosopher’s Stone.
Harry walking down the corridor to the basilisk is a version of the scene of Bilbo walking into the secret chamber in the Lonely Mountain to steal from Smaug.
Wait, plot twist, Salazar was a giant!
... and that's why everyone believed Hagrid could be his heir
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Your description of Slytherin and the Founders is actually how I'm anticipating the background of the 13 Primes will be portrayed in TF:One.
I love that it takes 17 minutes about 45 seconds for the random theorizing to stop and the actual chapter discusssion to begin XD
I think part of the reason why the Diary feels more 'offensive' is because Horcruxes might have been a bit more inspired by The One Ring... I mean I personally sometimes end up thinking of The One Ring as basically being just Sauron's horcrux...
Hey brother! Love the pod! Makes my weekends SO enjoyable to hear you two discuss in depth the HP books. Theory Here! what If! The reason that Salazar Slythryn hates muggles SO much IS because they killed his wife (who he had his child with that continues his line) what if- that’s why he left, not so much because of a feud, but because he was in mourning and had to raise his child alone and in his despair taught his child to hate muggles and it became that child’s burden to avenge his mother and keep the hatred alive in there line. He could have put the fanaglius charm on his departure and death of his wife and birth of his child because he wanted to keep them safe.
I usually read (and reread) the books in my native language, portuguese. But, from the 5th book on, I could never wait for the portuguese translations to come out, so me and my sisters would go to the launching events at midnight and I'd spend the next few months carrying my new Harry Potter book and a Oxford dictionary around at all times 😂. I think it improved my English a lot! Still a flex saying I read 500+ pages books in English when I was 10-12.
Fun fact: the names were never switched in the portuguese editions! In the big reveal they just added a footnote translating 'I am Lord Voldemort'.
Love your show!
You guys just described the plot of Castlevania the Netflix show with that founder tale.
1. To answer your question as a foreign viewer I am enjoying both, reading the original language as well as the translation. As a matter of fact, when I read Harry Potter for the first time by myself I switched back and forth between English and German, whatever was available at the local library. Now, when I am rereading it (like at the moment to follow along), I read the english ebook.
2. Like you said in a earlier episode it is also possible, that the chamber of secrets was accessible through the Slytherin common room and therefore without having to be lifted by the Basilisk. Only the Gaunts would have to rely on it to enter the chamber after they made the current entrance. Voldemort probably flew.
3. The 16 year old Voldemort may already have known about sacrificial protection through his research but to him that would have been nothing but curious ancient magic that he couldn't understand because it requires love and no one was using anymore. So he is able to identify what Harry is describing but wouldn't normally consider it to be a realistic thread. I think it is even described by him as very old magic at some time.
4. I think that the dungeons are particularly well suited to hide as there aren't as many classes. That is probably why Hagrid hides Aragog there and also why Percy meets Penelope there. I think that that wandering through the corridors up to his dormitory is also probably the most frequent way for Hagrid getting into trouble and why they believed in him being responsible. Also in that situation, the most would welcomely accept anyone as traitor even if it isn't a Slytherin. Riddle might know Hagrit because he has already caught him before doing thomething against the rules.
HBO should work together with you 2 (team) on a founders series!! No JK trouble and still Authentic and details that fit ❤
Hi ! Listening from south of France here. I read the book in French when I was very young and then have always re-read and listened to them in English, they actually helped me improve my English quite a bit ! Love your show, wait impatiently for every new episode 😍
I like to imagine that there was a skylight in the Chamber of Secrets that was at the bottom of the lake. But it's been abandoned for so long that the silt has covered over the skylight making that green tint
I think Riddle enchanted the diary into a pensieve-like memory receptacle before he made it a horcrux. It wasn't a founders' artifact, but it meant something to Riddle because it's an artifact he made. That's why the diary acts differently than your typical horcrux.
The thing is with me is I'm an overthinker😂😂the minute Tom picked up my wand, I would've been suspicious.
Yeah I totally agree, it makes sense that would be the point in which salads are broken up with the fact that his wife was murdered by muggles and that's when he decided to leave.
On the barefoot statue: In Roman culture, If a statue had bare feet that meant it portrayed a god. I should also mention that imperators were often thought of as having become gods after their deaths. They had 'divus' added to their name, which means divine/godly. So Divus Julius is the divine Julius Caesar for example. In this vein, Vespasian is quoted to say "I think I am becoming a god" on his deathbed. So all in all, a barefoot statue of Slytherin makes a lot of sense, since Harry Potter is full of Greek and Roman stuff and he probably just portrayed himself as a god.
Godric and Salazar buddy adventure story - going camping together, and the exasperated phoenix keeps healing them when they fall off cliffs while the basilisk lights the fire each night. And keeps spiders out of the bedrolls.
Amazing! Love these! Thanks. And badass thumbnail 🔥🔥🔥🔥
I did comment this in a previous episode, but in the Swedish version of the books, Tom Riddle's full name is Tom Gus Mervolo Dolder. Which then turns into Ego sum Lord Voldemort, Ego sum being latin for "I am". So technically our version would have worked for most countries I think.
About salazar having a way to exit the chamber, it’s also likely that the enchantment that stops you apparating inside the Hogwart’s grounds wasn’t in place back then so he could just apparate in and out.
When Tom Riddle is leaning against the wall, I picture him as Drax from Avengers: Infinity War - I've been here for an hour and you haven't seen me.
“I don’t think there are any trolls in the Forbidden Forest.” Not after Hagrid was done wrestling them 😂
Fawkes song can be heard throughout the castle in HBP so maybe he’s singing in the headmasters office and it can just be heard in the chamber, even if it is “miles below the castle”
Tom riddle essentially buffering 😂
Harry Potter was one of the motivators to learn English. To be able to understand all of those little things.
Of course when the books were coming out I was reading them in translation. However the "I am Lord Vordemort" was not a big translator's struggle because instead of "I am" you actually use only one letter in my language.
I think that R.A.B. was a much bigger jump of faith for the book translators.
Same for me. It was easy to read in english since I knew the content in native language. But anagram in polish version was english one (I'm Lord Voldemort).
@@Weronika-df6oz oh lol, they basically went "whatever" 😄
i like how we go straight to how did Fawkes know about the diary when the first question is how did Fawkes even get into the chamber? Is there a large open air vent?
From Mexico here! I read and listen the books in English now, but as a kid I first read the first 2 books in Spanish. Tom’s middle and last names are changed so that Tom Sorvolo Ryddle makes “Soy Lord Voldemort”.
My God, the salazar story Could make such a good TV series or just overall book.I would love to hear a fan fiction from you guys at the very least
I enjoyed this alone on a porch with a few coffees for my mother's day rest ❤
Thanks for your great podcast. I think Fawkes is Godric Gryffindor who was animagus and changed to Phoenix right before his death. And because he was mortal in Godric form after his death he couldn't comeback as a person. He was in Hogwarts to help a true Gryffindor in need. And he knew all about basilisk and the way to defeat it. Maybe Salazar Slytherin didn't leave the school, maybe he just changed to basilisk as an animagus too. And the war in the chamber was really was war of Godric and Salazar.
Hey Brother, greetings from Germany! I never thought I'd love the podcast as much as I do, I'm really looking forward to it each week.
Question: would you agree platform 9 3/4 is protected by a Fidelius Charm and the ticket to platform 9 3/4 has the same function as the note handed to Harry by Moody, which says "the headquarters of the OotP is located at Number 12, Gimmauld Place"? Because Hagrid tells Harry a couple of times how important the ticket is in book 1, and yet it is never mentioned in any of the following books. It would explain everything: why and how the entrance is hidden from muggles, and why and how everybody with a magical child is still able to access the platform and why such a ticket is never mentioned again.
Just responding to your question as to whether or not we read the books in your native tongue - I still reread the original editions in my mother tongue, which I got as birthday gifts when they came out. I have read the English editions once, but the translation is so excellent that it did not add anything for me. Rereading in my own tongue adds nostalgia, thus provides the best rereading experience.
Fawkes has spent decades with doumbledour so has probably picked up a few characters traits and as we all know doumbledour has style i could see a scenario where fawkes has already flash flamed into the chamber but is hiding behind a piller so he can sing his own entrance music before swooping in and saving the day.
I love the idea of Slytherin having a vision board.
The movie didn't do a good job of showing how *grand* the chamber is. As for the statue, it was probably influenced by Greek statues, which were often barefoot or wearing sandals.
Your explanation for Salazar's muggle-hating is more believable/interesting - and more human - than he just hates muggles to hate them.
Like Ben, I am amazed at how much info J retains.
When I picture the sword of Gryfindor, I picture something like Excalibur
INTO THE THICK OF IT! And I'm totally here for it! Yes! 🔥
Dumbledore changes Harry like a remix, then he raises Harry like a phoenix.
My mum read me the first 3 books in Dutch when I was younger but I started reading the books myself when I was 15/16 years old and then I did read them in English, mostly because all the names for characters and magical items and spells are so different and it was getting confusing talking about hp online and I was still learning English, I spoke and understood it well enough but I wasn't on native level yet (like i'm now) so it was a great way to pick up some more vocabulary with a story I was already familiar with. This did kickstart me only reading English books, I haven't picked up either a translated to Dutch or a Dutch books in like 8 years lmao
This one gave me a theory. Fawkes travels through his song:
His song could be heard well before he "fire flashed" into the chamber. So Fawkes projects his song to where he wants to go, and then uses it to pull himself there.
I probably need to read up more on phoenixes, but feels valid for the limited knowledge I have.