Your title caught my eye, because I LOVE to slice return, especially on players who serve hard, fast, deep and with a lot of top--I actually have an EASIER time slicing a return of a hard serve because I don't have to do as much, and a topspin serve just means the ball will be higher when I contact it. I actually have a harder time slicing a ball when it's slow, or like a lob serve. Since everyone is trying hit such hard serves, I find that the slice return is the easiest return to do. For me, being 59 and aging up to 60+ next year (yeah!!!), I need the slice because it goes deep, skids low, and goes slower, thus giving myself time to get to the NVZL. If I drive with top, I find that their 3rd shot drive is coming in hot while I'm still in the TZ, and I have to split step and make a tougher shot from there. So when my slice goes slower, deeper, and stays low, I find I can handle their 3rd shot drive when I'm at the NVZL. Also, I keep hearing how people say hitting a top spin on a slice shot is using the back spin...but I'd like to challenge that and actually see some slow mo video of the spin. I want to confirm that when my slice return bounces and skids backwards low, does the spin still stay backspin AFTER it contacts the court? I just know a lot of people at my level have a HARD time dealing with a slice return, so I love to use it for all the reasons above. And for me, when someone hits a heavy slice to me, I find that getting low, and coming straight into the low skidding ball and hitting a slice shot on their slice helps me counteract their slice and get it up and over the net. It seems like when I try to hit a topspin, it just spins downward faster, and takes more effort to counteract a slice with a topspin shot, so I've always had an easier time just returning a slice with a slice back and moving in. Maybe at the younger level, or the pro level, those benefits aren't as big a deal, but at the senior and super senior level, we need more time to get to the NVZL. I'm not as fast as I was when I was playing tennis as a teenager and could cover the court in singles all day! I find a lot of the pro advice these days are geared towards the younger generation, and that's fine. Just remember that there are still a lot of us super seniors out there who watch these same videos, and it might have helped us 40 years ago! LOL! Keep up the good work.
Great analysis! Definitely agree with your points! Next time, I’ll look to specify that my advice is more geared to pros, and players who don’t need as much time to get up to the NVZ. There are definitely some significant differences in gamestyle and “what works” in the senior pro game, compared to the pro game. A slice return (post bounce), will not have much “slice” on it at all anymore, which is something you are correct on! After bouncing, a slice return will be pretty flat. However, a flat, or top spin return, will surely have topspin on it post bounce. This means, to hit a topspin drive off of a flat or top spin return is more difficult, since the spins are going against one another.
@@JamesIgnatowich I am now 71 years old, played college tennis, taught tennis, and was certified by the USPTA...I watched and edited footage of John Isner, Sam Quarry, Donald Young, Michael Chang, and John McEnroe who all hit slice returns of serve. The "chip and charge" is the concept. For me, being "old school", I slice a firm underspin return of serve which gives me good control of the angle because of the simple blocking motion. I block the return accurately down the line in singles or often down the middle in doubles. It seems to me that players who hit lots of topspin will be able to hit that shot regardless of my return being topspin or not. I am amazed at the control of players who hit topspin drops. I actually call a topspin drop shot an oxymoron. Tennis players never hit drop shots with topspin. The very talented top pickleball players do. However, when players with less skill try hitting topspin drop shots, their shots are inconsistent.
Could you do a vid on demonstrating the low drive off the low slice return? Your description helps but I’d love to see it. I’ve always struggled doing that well.
If you’re doing that to give yourself more time to get up to the kitchen, consider going “cross court” mostly. The ball will travel farther in the air, and you’ll have even more time.
Question for next episode. I watched your mixed finals performance against Ben and Eda at red rocks. It seemed to me that you deliberately avoided dinking cross court with Ben. Backhand to backhand. From my understanding, you believe you are building a weapon in your twoie topspin dink that should be superior to Ben’s slice dink and help you survive if not thrive in that pattern. Is my observation correct? Why were you avoiding that pattern? Were you just having an off day? Was there something else you saw. Are you comfortable dinking cross with him and is it a referendum thing on the topspin twoie vs slice debate. Love the pod and your game. Keep it up.
Handsome, tall, athletic, amazing jawline, even better newsletter. Big Poppa is THE complete package in pickelball. Wish he would play some call of duty with me though 😳😭
Which shot realizes best the paddle spin capabilities and produces spin above 2000 RPM? It seems slice return with relaxed wrist producing whip/ slice slap allows to reach deeper and forms curve path, but it also carder to direct to a particular bounce location. Any feedback?
BPJ, you asked for questions... Why is TM "The Most Electrifying Man in Pickleball," if he still has to backhand slice returns (10%) when he can't run around it and forehand it with "The Ferrari Forehand"(90%)? 🤣
You keep playing your game. His advice here only applies if you are playing a player who had a really killer return, but if you are good enough to be playing a person this good then your slice return should be equally advanced. 4.5s and below continually have a lot of trouble with my slice/sidespin return.
Totally agree with Buckwheat, at the 4.5 level and below, slice can really trouble some players. I typically will specify that my advice applies to a certain level of player. This time, I forgot to do that, and that’s my fault! Keep playing your game for now!
James, why do you think all the top senior pros slice or chip 95% of their returns. Do you think it's simply because they are giving themselves more time to get to the line? I'm amazed at how different their game is to you guys. Maybe that will change as more people age up but I'm surprised some of those guys aren't trying to replicate the pro game.
The slice return is the easiest return to control distance and trajectory, so they are doing it for consistency. It's a shot that easy to replicate, resulting in fewer returns missed long
For many players it's a matter of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". The seniors play against other seniors and it probably works most of the time so they see no reason to change. Also depending how senior they are, they may not be able to drive the ball as well as they can slice it
I think the drives are less powerful in the senior game, and slice returns give seniors more time to get in. Movement isn’t much of an issue for pros, so there isn’t as much of a need to give yourself more time with a slice return, or a high, floaty return.
How about hitting slice return deep and to the corner of ad court, to your oppenent's backhand. Do you fin most pros will still sled over and hit a forehand drive? Or do they hit backhand drives there? If they hit backhand, I feel like options are limited to a down the line drive or a drop shot.
Great question! With new paddle technology, there are a lot of pros who hit great two handed backhand drives cross court! Especially off of slice. I personally love that shot. But, this is mostly just for pros, at 5.0 and below, that shot is tough
I have an interesting question. With the logic of changing the direction of the spin is very difficult. And the fact that almost all serves are top men wouldn’t it be wise to hit slice off of top serve because you’re going with the spin? Or are you essentially anti-slice on any shot that is deep? Big tennis background wasn’t like an incredible tennis player but D2 level and for me the one-handed backhand was always so natural when I was scrambling or out of position so I always thought it was a great shot. Always wanted to have a good two-handed back though. never really put in the time to get there. It’s on my list though for Pickleball.
Strictly my opinion on 2 handed backhand......the reason people use 2 hands is because they can't use one. It has always amazed me that people want to develop a 2 handed backhand when I think it should be the opposite, 2 handers should learn a one hand! Fact..2 hands are slower to respond, hey if you have always used 2 hands you do you, but don't tell me 2 hands is better than one. FYI my backhand is better than forehand. Can you see Federer changing his game to a 2 handed, 😂
Great thoughts from both of you guys! I use both a one handed backhand and a two handed backhand. Different advantages to each. Think about this - out of the top 20 male players in pickleball, 18 of them are putting two hands on the paddle for a backhand at some point during matches. Not all of these players prefer the two hand backhand; but you will see them use the two handed backhand for certain shots. Think about it this way, can you hit a wide volley to your non dominant side harder with a one handed backhand or two handed backhand? For returning serve with slice, it is true that you are going with the spin of the serve by slicing it. So this may make it a little easier. But to really improve as a player, it’s about making things tough for your opponent, not easier for you. It’s better to improve at something that is a little harder, and then get comfortable with it. That’s what improvement is!
@@JamesIgnatowich fair enough you definitely wanna make their job uncomfortable. And most serves aren’t really gonna be so difficult that I’m out of position and I have to reach to get it. So I should be able to put a fairly good ball. Maybe if it’s a wicked serve and slices thing to do just to make life easier and more consistent. But nine out of 10 times that’s not the case.
I have seen good players that have been using a slice backhand that imparts side spin. This forces the opponent make more adjustments on the return. Just wondering if your opinion remains the same. Side spin does not promote topspin on the return. Right???
Side spin slice can be very effective! If you’re not playing at a level where your opponents can take advantage of counteracting spin - keep doing what works for you! Next time I’ll specify that this advice is 4.5+
If someone is driving your backhand slice return and consistently driving it into the net, what do you think the problem is? I had always felt they were trying to use too much top spin on that drive, but after watching this episode, maybe they aren't putting enough top spin on the drive?
When backspin hits the paddle, it will deflect downward. The harder the backspin, the more the deflection. To hit a hard skidding slice effectively, you need to compensate for this effect. You first need to get down and get the paddle under the ball. If you're a good level, you can amplify the spin with topspin as said here. My quibble here is that the effectiveness or lack thereof of backspin returns/drives depends upon level. It's very effective through 4.0 and OK at 4.5. 5+ will abuse it. YMMV. I find the most effective heavy slice return to be struck starting to come in and at the peak of its bounce, or very slightly before, so that it gets a very flat trajectory downward and landing deep whereupon it skids low. This gives you time to get all the way in and set. It requires a high level player to abuse you on the third. Many others will dump it into the net or otherwise give a weak third. Think Federer's slice return where most had great difficulty with it, except Nadal.
You just demonstrated the reason I disagree with James advice. The reason they are putting it in net is mostly due to the fact that the hard slice return normally stays low to ground and that makes it harder to get a full swing on the topspin.
Your title caught my eye, because I LOVE to slice return, especially on players who serve hard, fast, deep and with a lot of top--I actually have an EASIER time slicing a return of a hard serve because I don't have to do as much, and a topspin serve just means the ball will be higher when I contact it. I actually have a harder time slicing a ball when it's slow, or like a lob serve. Since everyone is trying hit such hard serves, I find that the slice return is the easiest return to do.
For me, being 59 and aging up to 60+ next year (yeah!!!), I need the slice because it goes deep, skids low, and goes slower, thus giving myself time to get to the NVZL. If I drive with top, I find that their 3rd shot drive is coming in hot while I'm still in the TZ, and I have to split step and make a tougher shot from there. So when my slice goes slower, deeper, and stays low, I find I can handle their 3rd shot drive when I'm at the NVZL.
Also, I keep hearing how people say hitting a top spin on a slice shot is using the back spin...but I'd like to challenge that and actually see some slow mo video of the spin. I want to confirm that when my slice return bounces and skids backwards low, does the spin still stay backspin AFTER it contacts the court? I just know a lot of people at my level have a HARD time dealing with a slice return, so I love to use it for all the reasons above.
And for me, when someone hits a heavy slice to me, I find that getting low, and coming straight into the low skidding ball and hitting a slice shot on their slice helps me counteract their slice and get it up and over the net. It seems like when I try to hit a topspin, it just spins downward faster, and takes more effort to counteract a slice with a topspin shot, so I've always had an easier time just returning a slice with a slice back and moving in.
Maybe at the younger level, or the pro level, those benefits aren't as big a deal, but at the senior and super senior level, we need more time to get to the NVZL. I'm not as fast as I was when I was playing tennis as a teenager and could cover the court in singles all day!
I find a lot of the pro advice these days are geared towards the younger generation, and that's fine. Just remember that there are still a lot of us super seniors out there who watch these same videos, and it might have helped us 40 years ago! LOL! Keep up the good work.
Great analysis! Definitely agree with your points! Next time, I’ll look to specify that my advice is more geared to pros, and players who don’t need as much time to get up to the NVZ. There are definitely some significant differences in gamestyle and “what works” in the senior pro game, compared to the pro game.
A slice return (post bounce), will not have much “slice” on it at all anymore, which is something you are correct on! After bouncing, a slice return will be pretty flat.
However, a flat, or top spin return, will surely have topspin on it post bounce. This means, to hit a topspin drive off of a flat or top spin return is more difficult, since the spins are going against one another.
@@JamesIgnatowich I am now 71 years old, played college tennis, taught tennis, and was certified by the USPTA...I watched and edited footage of John Isner, Sam Quarry, Donald Young, Michael Chang, and John McEnroe who all hit slice returns of serve. The "chip and charge" is the concept. For me, being "old school", I slice a firm underspin return of serve which gives me good control of the angle because of the simple blocking motion. I block the return accurately down the line in singles or often down the middle in doubles. It seems to me that players who hit lots of topspin will be able to hit that shot regardless of my return being topspin or not. I am amazed at the control of players who hit topspin drops. I actually call a topspin drop shot an oxymoron. Tennis players never hit drop shots with topspin. The very talented top pickleball players do. However, when players with less skill try hitting topspin drop shots, their shots are inconsistent.
Great advice again, thanks. You & AB are my favorite to watch.
Thank you!
Could you do a vid on demonstrating the low drive off the low slice return? Your description helps but I’d love to see it.
I’ve always struggled doing that well.
Will be releasing video on my new CZcams channel that I’m commenting from, in two weeks
Thanks James. Always interesting and enjoyable!
Thank you! I do my best!
great advice!! I have been floating my returns deep most of the time unless I get a short serve.
If you’re doing that to give yourself more time to get up to the kitchen, consider going “cross court” mostly. The ball will travel farther in the air, and you’ll have even more time.
Ben Johns, pretty good at pickleball. Heard it here first. 😆
I broke the news!
Question for next episode. I watched your mixed finals performance against Ben and Eda at red rocks.
It seemed to me that you deliberately avoided dinking cross court with Ben. Backhand to backhand.
From my understanding, you believe you are building a weapon in your twoie topspin dink that should be superior to Ben’s slice dink and help you survive if not thrive in that pattern.
Is my observation correct? Why were you avoiding that pattern? Were you just having an off day? Was there something else you saw. Are you comfortable dinking cross with him and is it a referendum thing on the topspin twoie vs slice debate.
Love the pod and your game. Keep it up.
Handsome, tall, athletic, amazing jawline, even better newsletter. Big Poppa is THE complete package in pickelball. Wish he would play some call of duty with me though 😳😭
Love this video, great tips! Thank you!
Which shot realizes best the paddle spin capabilities and produces spin above 2000 RPM? It seems slice return with relaxed wrist producing whip/ slice slap allows to reach deeper and forms curve path, but it also carder to direct to a particular bounce location. Any feedback?
I think that’s the shot also! I think you’re right on the money; but I don’t have any evidence
BPJ, you asked for questions...
Why is TM "The Most Electrifying Man in Pickleball," if he still has to backhand slice returns (10%) when he can't run around it and forehand it with "The Ferrari Forehand"(90%)? 🤣
Is slice backspin? What about side spin? I use backspin occasionally in rec play. 60%-70% of the time they hit it into the net.
You keep playing your game. His advice here only applies if you are playing a player who had a really killer return, but if you are good enough to be playing a person this good then your slice return should be equally advanced. 4.5s and below continually have a lot of trouble with my slice/sidespin return.
Totally agree with Buckwheat, at the 4.5 level and below, slice can really trouble some players. I typically will specify that my advice applies to a certain level of player. This time, I forgot to do that, and that’s my fault! Keep playing your game for now!
James, why do you think all the top senior pros slice or chip 95% of their returns. Do you think it's simply because they are giving themselves more time to get to the line? I'm amazed at how different their game is to you guys. Maybe that will change as more people age up but I'm surprised some of those guys aren't trying to replicate the pro game.
The slice return is the easiest return to control distance and trajectory, so they are doing it for consistency. It's a shot that easy to replicate, resulting in fewer returns missed long
For many players it's a matter of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". The seniors play against other seniors and it probably works most of the time so they see no reason to change. Also depending how senior they are, they may not be able to drive the ball as well as they can slice it
I think the drives are less powerful in the senior game, and slice returns give seniors more time to get in. Movement isn’t much of an issue for pros, so there isn’t as much of a need to give yourself more time with a slice return, or a high, floaty return.
How about hitting slice return deep and to the corner of ad court, to your oppenent's backhand. Do you fin most pros will still sled over and hit a forehand drive? Or do they hit backhand drives there? If they hit backhand, I feel like options are limited to a down the line drive or a drop shot.
Great question! With new paddle technology, there are a lot of pros who hit great two handed backhand drives cross court! Especially off of slice. I personally love that shot. But, this is mostly just for pros, at 5.0 and below, that shot is tough
I have an interesting question. With the logic of changing the direction of the spin is very difficult. And the fact that almost all serves are top men wouldn’t it be wise to hit slice off of top serve because you’re going with the spin? Or are you essentially anti-slice on any shot that is deep? Big tennis background wasn’t like an incredible tennis player but D2 level and for me the one-handed backhand was always so natural when I was scrambling or out of position so I always thought it was a great shot. Always wanted to have a good two-handed back though. never really put in the time to get there. It’s on my list though for Pickleball.
Strictly my opinion on 2 handed backhand......the reason people use 2 hands is because they can't use one. It has always amazed me that people want to develop a 2 handed backhand when I think it should be the opposite, 2 handers should learn a one hand! Fact..2 hands are slower to respond, hey if you have always used 2 hands you do you, but don't tell me 2 hands is better than one. FYI my backhand is better than forehand. Can you see Federer changing his game to a 2 handed, 😂
Great thoughts from both of you guys! I use both a one handed backhand and a two handed backhand. Different advantages to each. Think about this - out of the top 20 male players in pickleball, 18 of them are putting two hands on the paddle for a backhand at some point during matches. Not all of these players prefer the two hand backhand; but you will see them use the two handed backhand for certain shots. Think about it this way, can you hit a wide volley to your non dominant side harder with a one handed backhand or two handed backhand?
For returning serve with slice, it is true that you are going with the spin of the serve by slicing it. So this may make it a little easier. But to really improve as a player, it’s about making things tough for your opponent, not easier for you. It’s better to improve at something that is a little harder, and then get comfortable with it. That’s what improvement is!
@@JamesIgnatowich fair enough you definitely wanna make their job uncomfortable. And most serves aren’t really gonna be so difficult that I’m out of position and I have to reach to get it. So I should be able to put a fairly good ball. Maybe if it’s a wicked serve and slices thing to do just to make life easier and more consistent. But nine out of 10 times that’s not the case.
I have seen good players that have been using a slice backhand that imparts side spin. This forces the opponent make more adjustments on the return. Just wondering if your opinion remains the same. Side spin does not promote topspin on the return. Right???
Exactly!! Furthermore the sidespin/slice return skids and only comes off ground a few inches, my slice return is one of my best shots.
Side spin slice can be very effective! If you’re not playing at a level where your opponents can take advantage of counteracting spin - keep doing what works for you! Next time I’ll specify that this advice is 4.5+
@@JamesIgnatowich thanks big papa! Glad to see you back!!!
If someone is driving your backhand slice return and consistently driving it into the net, what do you think the problem is? I had always felt they were trying to use too much top spin on that drive, but after watching this episode, maybe they aren't putting enough top spin on the drive?
When backspin hits the paddle, it will deflect downward. The harder the backspin, the more the deflection. To hit a hard skidding slice effectively, you need to compensate for this effect. You first need to get down and get the paddle under the ball. If you're a good level, you can amplify the spin with topspin as said here.
My quibble here is that the effectiveness or lack thereof of backspin returns/drives depends upon level. It's very effective through 4.0 and OK at 4.5. 5+ will abuse it. YMMV.
I find the most effective heavy slice return to be struck starting to come in and at the peak of its bounce, or very slightly before, so that it gets a very flat trajectory downward and landing deep whereupon it skids low. This gives you time to get all the way in and set. It requires a high level player to abuse you on the third. Many others will dump it into the net or otherwise give a weak third. Think Federer's slice return where most had great difficulty with it, except Nadal.
You just demonstrated the reason I disagree with James advice. The reason they are putting it in net is mostly due to the fact that the hard slice return normally stays low to ground and that makes it harder to get a full swing on the topspin.
this is not complete correct. if you slide a return ball near the kitchen. Any topspin drives will go out
But you've given up position, which is the point of the return.
True, but why bring your opponent to the kitchen early??? Keep them back.
I wouldn’t recommend hitting a short return, it’s always important to keep the opponent back at the higher levels. But you’re not wrong!
Like this comment if you watched this video just to see that dreamy smile ❤
My wife told me if she wasn’t afraid of AB and her intensity, she’d DM Big Poppa…..🤷🏻♂️