Long-Range Hunting - Good or Bad?
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2023
- Welcome to Ron Spomer Outdoors! In this episode I sit down with Joseph Von Benedikt and try and answer the question, is long-range hunting good or bad? Will we finally end this debate? Stay tuned to find out.
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely. - Sport
Depends on how good the shooter is. My furthest shot on a target was 1200 yds. I limit my hunting range to 300 yds because that's what I feel comfortable with in effectively dispatching a game animal. Good luck and stay safe!!! 😉😉😉
see, that makes sense to me.
Yup. Big difference with shooting targets and a live animal. Im with you. 300 yds max. Too many variables in the field to risk wounding an animal. Sudden wind gust. Animal moves, etc. I will try to get closer. If not, oh well. Go on to the next. Its called hunting. Not shooting.
I have respect for you
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
It is more than shooting. It is recovering game. And that can be difficult even to find the begining ofr a trail when the shot was 30 yards. I believe a lot of these guys are just leaving it to the coyotes if they didn't see the deer drop.
Consider myself an ethical hunter, have shot paper from afar. But my longest shot on a deer was still less than 300 yards.
That's very cool. Respect !👍
I think ethical hunting ranges will always creep further and further out there as long as ballistic advancements are made. Better powders, tighter tolerances, and more efficient bullets will continue to make longer shots easier. 120 years ago, any shot past 100-150 yards would be considered reckless. I take deer at 400 yards with my 6.8 with no problem, but if I use an iron sight 30-30 I understand why keeping it within 100-150 yards is necessary. Equipment, practice, and good judgement determine my shots
@@ringofasho7721I completely agree.
6.8 Western? SPC? (I think it's called)
@bullheadedgideon1673 6.8 western with 170gr ballistic tips. My Hell's Canyon groups .5MOA with them. With no wind I can ring my 4 inch gong at 600 yards without fail
I'm not a long range hunter but the invention of the range finder has been of benefit to me. Not having to estimate distance plus knowing the ballistics of the bullet I'm shooting has been a big help. I'm still not a long range hunter though.
I have shot to 400 yards with iron sights, at targets. With pretty good success.
But I have to admit I'm just not good enough to shoot at an animal at that range or further.
"A man's got to know his limitations," said someone in a movie. And he was right.
Excellent talk , I've been chasing big game for 40 years and have taken clean shots at some distance but the most exciting and rewarding hunts have been when I can get very close in, biggest buck I've ever taken was at 7 yards with my 270.
Awesome. I have not killed a big buck at 7 yards, but I did kill a doe, hunting on the ground without a blind at 8 yards exactly with my bow. I've killed lots and lots and lots of deer, including good bucks, but that doe is the one I will never ever forget. I love rifle hunting and muzzleloader season is my absolute favorite deer season. But when you kill a deer, any deer with a bow, especially at extremely close range there is just something special about it. Hunting is not about how far you can shoot a game animal but how close you can get to it without spooking it to shoot it. I don't look down on long range hunting but, let's be real, most people doing long range hunting are just poor long range shots that think they are better marksmen than what they really are because of the fancy rifles and equipment they are using. Some people have long range rifle skills, but most don't. It only takes one step of an animal at long range to go from a great heart/lung shot to a horrible gut shot. I respect game animals to much to shoot them at extreme range and risk wounding them to never be found and for them to die miserably, even if I am capable of making a good kill shot at distance. I'll keep my rifle shots at game to 300 yards or under. If a hunter cannot get within 300 yards of a game animal then they should really try to improve their animal stalking technique instead of attempting shots they may or may not make on game.
Great discussion. I’ve taken over a hundred head of big game, only a handful were over 150 yards, most were well under 100. Some guys can’t hit a barn at 50 yards but have less buck fever at longer distances, it becomes more like hitting steel at the range. I can keep MOA out to 1000 most days but no way in hell I’d mess around like that with a precious game animal. So many angles to this subject.
People like challenges. So no matter what, as long as technology keeps improving, people are going to keep pushing the boundaries. That is simply human nature.
There are people out there who can make a better shot at 600 yards with their setup than I can at 300 yards. It's all relative.
As long as they are following the rules and regs they are supposed to and being as ethical as they feel necessary, then it's none of my business.
This!!!!
👨⚖ And Rules and Regulations (Ethical Standards) are Established, Because People See Unethical Behaviors (Like This) and Aren't Going to Put Up With It Anymore (Like Me)! 🤬 Ron is LYING (🤥🤥🤥) When He Says "We Don't Have the Right to Judge or Tell Others What They Can and Can't Do, Regarding Ethical Shooting Limits on Game Animals!" 🤥 WRONG! 😂 They already do in Europe! 🌏 Give Them a Break? 🙄 WHY Don't You Give the Animals a Break, Along With Your Fellow Hunters, Like Me? 🤔 Do people get to shoot as many elk as they want, or hunt were they want, or drive where they want...etc...Nope! 🥴 So, When I Adopt New Legislation for My State, I Will Be Naming the Bill's After These 2 Guys - That Will End "Out of Staters" From Hunting in Mine ( The "Ron Spoomer Bill" - Giving Skilled and Ethical Residence a Better Opportunity to Harvest a Game Animal and Have a Quality Hunting Experience) and For the Residents To Qualify at the Range For the Opportunities to Even Hunt (The Joseph Von "Benedict Arnold" Bill - By Proving What Their "Capabilities Really Are", And "Limiting Them" To Shooting Game Animals At That Distance)! You Can Thank These to Gun Writers For Being on the Payroll of These Greedy Manufacturers and "Prostituing Themselves" For Money, While "Promoting This Unethical and Irresponsible Idea", As They Destroy Our Sport and Turn It Into a Sniping Contest! 😳 Thanks Ron! 😡 You and Your Companion There Are About to Learn a Valuable Lesson - Be Careful Who You Piss Off! ☹ Because I Ain't Having NONE of It in My State (Back Yard)! 🤮 Nope! 🚔🚓
Just because something is legal doesn’t make it ethical.
@@scottkemp9530 Again, your version of ethical may be different than someone else’s, and they may both be right. You wouldn’t bat an eye if someone took a 300 yard shot in 1956 with their iron sight rifle, but that’s a harder shot than a 600 yarder with a premium rifle and scope. It’s all relative.
In my old age, I have become a great proponent of shooting sticks. I use them here in CT where I hunt deer. A long shot on my property is 70 yards. Another thing I think we should do here in the States is the use dogs like Jack Russell terriers as tracking dogs after the shot to aid in finding the game. They do this in South Africa, and it makes a lot of sense. The longest shot I ever took was on a Mule Deer in the Ft. Peck Reservoir Area, in MT. Just about 400 yards. I was shooting a Winchester M-70 Super Grade in 270 Winchester, my own hand loads, and 130 gr Speer SP bullets at around 3,170 fps average from my chronograph, 3.5 to 10x Leupold scope, on 6x. It was a quick shot, the guide was spotting, I shot and loaded another round, I hit the deer in the heart. There is so much that can go wrong, it worked out for me that time. Since then I have gone too heavy for caliber bullets- 400 is a long way away to shoot at the game. So for me, ,that is about as far as I am willing to shoot. I am not much into boat tail bullets, but I have to say that one of the best hunting loads I shoot these days it the Federal Fusion 7mm RM 150gr out of my Blaser R-93- it very accurate and the bullet works well on everything I have shot with it. Still, it's a 400 yard gun or less. Mostly because that is my skill level and it better be good conditions, light, and wind. I like the stalk, to get close is what hunting is all about. I would much rather get to under 100 yards on a Bull Elk or Moose than shoot way out there. CZcams videos make it look easy when its not, it required a lot of trigger time to pull off and even more trigger time to keep the skill set. No matter what anybody says it costs a lot of time, effort and money, most are not willing to do. And then there is that other component, physical shape, most of us are not, and more so going into the high country.
@RonSpomerOutdoors.. Scammer, Ron does not pay any attention to pikers like me!
Thank you gentlemen for saying what needed to be said. Our game deserves an ethical and lethal kill made by a skilled hunter not just a shooter.
That's not hunting in any way shape or form. If you want to make shots like that, then go to a range. In my 40 years of deer hunting. The biggest majority of the deer I've taken have been so close I wished I had just brought my bow. But I love the hunt itself. And trust me. Not one year that I hunted with a rifle did I eat a tag sandwich. I actually fed multiple households with multiple animals. Never having left my own state. Or payed for land to hunt. By permission only and public occasionally.
@@Retired_Deer_Hunter that’s not hunting at all, a real hunter uses their bare hands and teeth!!
@@jaydunbar7538 Good luck to you friend. You can't learn a whole lot about hunting from an E.R. where that animal is going to put you.
@@jaydunbar7538Congratulations on your hunting adventures! I eagerly look forward to the pics and stories of all the trophies you have taken with your bare hands and teeth!
Thank you for this comment... I agree with the key word ethical..... Too many week end hot shots get out there to hunt and don't have adequate skills to accomplish the mission. Result leaving wounded animals to drag off and die a miserable death.
Forget the long shots unless you're sniper skilled and an ethical hunter willing to track a wounded animal for miles.
Know your equipment. What it can do, what your asking it to do, and what you are capable of in the moment.
Thanks for this discussion. It needs to happen more. Recently I've seen too many clips online of really unethical long range shots. A big part of the gun culture in this country is comprised of people who think they are expert marksmen, when in reality they are poor shots. I worked in the industry for a while, and I've seen this first hand many times. We need to encourage oir fellow shooters to practice more, and i think you've done a good job of making that point. Thank you.
Clowns on youtube showing not only ridiculous long shots on animals, but they have to be headshots. Of course, the morons don't post all the cripples they created.
Ive seen more videos of poor bow shots
You dont need any PRC cartridge unless your performing abd competing at very high levels. Like they mentioned, an 30-06 will do amazing and economical work. A properly put together 30-06 with a barrel twisted for those long sleek high B.C. bullets is a good place to be.
Yes but if your getting a new barrel or rifle to get that faster twist, why not get a modern higher efficiency cartridge? Every degree of variation you can remove the larger the human error factor can be. your rifle won’t get tired climbing the mountain, you will so may as well get any advantage possible.
Same can be said about the 7rm.
The standard 1:10 in 30-06 is plenty to stabilize very long, very efficient bullets.
“You don’t need”…I can buy whatever the hell I want. PRC cartridges outperform 30-06 all day
For long range target shooting and just having a capable rifle, I disagree because the prc cartridges do more than a 30-06. I don’t disagree that the 30-06 is a good cartridge but a 7 prc is good for close range and even out to 600 with a solid copper. Someone in bear country that extra speed and solid copper has more penetration and power on target. Doesn’t kick much more than a 270 win and with a Omni brake it is less than a 270. 6.5 prc with a mono bullet is also good because you get the speed to open that bullet up reliably and you have better accuracy potential with the newer cartridges with factory ammo. Cant tell you how many boxes of 270 win and 308 win I went through to get a round that would shoot under an 1” every 3-5 shot group.
Glad you included "recovery" in your list. Seen too many deer run 100 yards with a double lung shot. Easy to recover at 200 yards, but gets harder at 500, and very difficult over 800. Everything in west Texas looks the same over 400 yards.
Great video Ron. You can tell you guys have experience. I live in eastern Canada where it’s mostly woods here 300 yards is a long shot . My first deer was shot a 5 yards in the bush. Seems like a lot of videos are about long range . But there are some challenges and things to consider hunting in thick woods and shooting animals at really close range as well. Bullet deflection and bullet type etc… . It is possible to miss or wound a animal at really close range also.Maybe that could be a video for you to do .
Being able to consistently hit stationary targets at long range is one thing, but when you start getting into ranges where the time of flight is a full second, or more, you're gambling on the animal not moving. An animal can move a foot and a half to 3 feet in a second, even if not alarmed. If that animal takes a step just as you break the shot, there's nothing you can do. This is what most people fail to consider. A secondary consideration is will the bullet maintain sufficient energy & velocity at those ranges?
I'll shorten that time to 1/2 of a second. It doesn't take much time at all.
My youngest son and I went to Africa for a dream hunt celebrating his graduation. His first trigger pull in Africa, on an impala at 200 + yards, was a light primer strike. With that click I had an “internal high speed come apart. “
He seemingly calmly chambered another round and made an ethical one shot harvest.
I was amazed. I credit his mother’s calm disposition he inherited and a great PH.
Maybe I said something along the way that helped.
Great discussion. People need to know their limitations. What I see on the range sometimes and "American Idol" are proof that many don't have a true sense of their abilities.
Well said guys. Good points all around.
It’s unfortunate this topic has been considered taboo and most hunters take the “everyone should hunt how they want” stance.
The main detail I see not really discussed here is the near endless promotion of long range hunting by some individuals, companies and brands on CZcams and instagram.
This creates a skewed perception of hunters for people who don’t know anything about it.
Whether we like it or not public opinion drives policy, regulations and laws.
Great points!!
The PRC cartridges. One cartridge I think should be more popular is the 280 AI, for a hunting rifle. It has very similar power level, very close to a 7mm rem mag or 7mm PRC, uses the same sleek bullets but can hold 5 rounds in the magazine as opposed to three of the fatter, "more modern " cartridges. It is very important to make that first shot count but it awful comforting to know there are 5 rounds readily available in the magazine, just in case.
I have to agree with you on the 280 AI. Unfortunately it won't get the attention it deserves because nobody can make royalties off Mr. Ackley's invention at this point.
Love your videos Ron. Just found out about you about a month ago. Can't get enough of your videos. Great information. Keep up the good work!
One of your best videos for hunters. Information is so important for confidence and capability. This video will be a must see before I hit the field again.
Great discussion fellas,Joseph is a welcome addition to the channel,enjoy you guy’s sharing your different thoughts and perspective on these subjects 👍
I think it's great JVB is hanging with Ron 👍🏼
I'd say hunt as far out as your comfortable with/have the skill too. For some people that's 75 yards and for others it's 600 yards.
Doesnt matter how good of a shot one is. 600 plus yds is not ethical IMO. Too many factors out of ones control to be 100% certain on the shot at that range. Sudden wind gust. Is wind the same 800 yds feon you? What if animal takes a step or gets spooked as you squeze the trigger? Get closer. Its called hunting.
@@todsimpkins8908just stop lol.
@@todsimpkins8908 funny how sure you are that your right, have fun stuck in your paradigm.
"FLABBYBRO" - Your Own Description of Yourself Tells Me That If You Can't Even Take Care of Yourself - That You Have No Business Shooting Animals at Long Range - Because You Don't Have the Discipline to Practice Properly? Better Stay Within Your Limits of 75 Yards, Because "Good Shooting" Also Requires That You Be In Good Shape (Not a Fat A_ss), Which is The Number #1 Key to Shooting at Distances - Good Breathing Technique and a Healthy Heart That Beats at Less Than 60 Beats Per Minute (Or Even Half That, Like Mine) at Rest! Your Biggest Concern Shouldn't Be Killing Animals, But Caring For Your Body! 🤯
@@ronlowney4700 the way you make it sound in order to hit things past 100 yards you need to be a marathon runner, someone should go tell the bench rest and f class guys they can’t shoot because their not in good enough shape.
I have rifles (.338 Edge and 7mm Rem Mag) that are capable of long range kills. I don't have access to the kind of training it would take to get good enough to shoot at game beyond more than 300 yards. I've made a couple of 300 yard kills and I was nervous. I'll stick with targets beyond 300 yards.
Good info. Hard to keep up on everything with new equipment coming out all the time. Use to guide out West, I can see a need to shoot longer distances; but maybe it's the archery hunter in me, I enjoy the skill it takes to get closer to your game. Maybe that's a skill people are losing, by relying on long range.
You are 100% correct. I'd say a good 75% of hunters are just no good at stalking in close to game these days.
I go by what my eye and skill can do, at present. And that is 300 yards. Confident I have the steadiness for that and rifles that are dispersing no more than 1 MOA. A shot at 300 yards will get the vital zone. I have also dry-fired off hand and notice the wavering of the scope. So, I would limit the off hand to 50 yards, even though one rifle of mine disperses .54 inches (.51 MOA.) Because with the wavering of off hand, I may have 2 MOA results, overall.
So, my limit is not everyone's limit. The limit is what you and your rifle are capable of. And, yes, the recoverability of the game.
Great video guys glad to see you presenting such great content of information thanks for your time and 🙏 bless
@RonSpomerOutdoors.. what
You guys are so amazing together. Incredible information from two of the absolute best in the industry
Two guys who don't hunt long range giving their opinion on long range hunting is the best in the industry? How about the folks who actually do it?
@@NorthRiverGuide What makes you say they don't do it? Both are super accomplished outdoor writers, and Ron's been well-known since before the internet!
Thank you for this video. I am a left handed shooter, my first rifle was a Remington Mohawk 600 in 243. Of course it was a right handed bolt so I had to learn to make the first shot count. My father always told me to never take a shot unless I was sure I could get a clean kill. It was the hunters responsibility to ethically harvest the animal and not make it suffer. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard other hunters taking 3 or 4 shots while I was hunting.
Ron you do a great job with you channel, thanks. Appreciate this segment with Joseph, he is my favorite of the new generation of writers. One aspect of long range shots is having a hunting partner to spot, range and call your dial ups while you are ready and on the gun. Plus spotter is on the animal calling the hit, drop and final spot of down game. A 400 shot across a draw is a big challenge when you have to hike down across and over to down game when you have tall grass and brush, having a spotter stay put and guide you in is ever so valuable. Finally if you can't show up at a range and set up and hit a 6 inch plate/target first time every time at X distance then you might not be good to shoot at game at that distance.
Thank you for a great discussion on a very important question. You nailed every point!
Here's my input:
1) Whatever you can do on the range reliably, 60% of that is your hunting range.
2) Caliber means nothing with a badly placed shot.
3) Never over extend yourself...Holding back is what makes you a good hunter.
Oh, forgot to mention that I love your Kudu skin on the table good Sir. 👌
ABSOLUTELY AWESOME VIDEO!! So much amazing information!! I hunt with a handgun. So the distance you talking is incredible! I love this duel podcast! 👍🏻👍🏻🤗🤗
Your best video yet, excellent discussion of a very important factor in today's question of what constitutes ethical hunting.
Good stuff , very informative , thankyou
Most people would find very difficult to walk and find a stump or similar object (unless it's the sole one in an otherwise featureless field) they shoot at at 500 yards.
A very interesting discussion. It showed that good sense is still around.
Great show and thanks for the info 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Good stuff guys! Ty...
We fight this same debate in archery hunting. I can hit a deer target in the vitals out to 80 yards that my home range allows all day long. But targets don't move when the arrow gets within ten yards. So my personal archery limit is thirty yards and even that almost bit me a couple years ago when the deer moved the same moment I released the arrow and completely changed the impact point. Only reason she went down was because I use heavy arrows traveling fairly fast so I hit every internal organ she had. Same happens with long range shooting, the further out you go the more chances there are of things changing. That's why I keep my rifle hunting to around 100 yards. I want as few factors changeable as possible when I pull that trigger.
You guys are right on target and I appreciate you give an in-depth look at this controversial subject. I thought about this a lot, but I didn’t have the knowledge or the experience that you guys have put together in this. He did a great job. I’ve always limited myself to 300 yard shooting and I feel proud to say that I’ve never lost an animal this year under ideal situation I had an elk at 350 yards and I took a shot knowing that I could make it. I did not yell down it got up start moving away by the time I was ready to put a second shot he was at 400 yards , that’s where practice practice practice comes in and I can probably say that I made the shot and didn’t lose the animal. This isn’t to say that I now have a new my long range from 300 to 400 yards. I probably will limit myself still the 300 yards. Thanks for sharing .
As an eastern hunter I have never understood the desire to risk shooting at a majestic creature from distances I would deem absurd. But I grew up with muzzleloaders, slug guns, and bows where a long shot was 100 yds most within 30. Straight walled cartridges have extended that range slightly. The rare occasion where you can see 400+ yds there is usually a better way to get into a shooting position on that animal.
Great info. for this eastern whitetail hunter, few circumstances out here for a truly long shot. a 300 yarder around here is tough. But I practice it for the possible need. I enjoy your show. looking forward to getting out west for a little longer shots .But no more than 400, thats my self imposed limit. Enjoy and safe travels.
For say that make the 1st shot count, those that dose muzzle loading hunting learn that . Yes for a center fire you can have a follow shot. Like you said try to make that one shot count. That is what I learn . because times you will not have another shot to take . Thanks for all you both explained . Looking forward for more to learn from you both .
I for one believe in the science of ballistics. I also believe in our current technology. I also believe in my ability because i practice often. I'm comfortable and confident in 500 yards shots. But not because of my ability, its because i don't own a cartridge with the capability to take game any further. And Joseph was right, you really have to EAT, SLEEP, BREATH long distance, especially when your 600 yards+. I've seen too many people who think they can shoot, miss a long-distance target. Also, HUNTER vs HUNTER needs to stop. Doesn't matter if you can stalk up to 5 yards from an animal or camouflage yourself to look like a tree and have a deer walk right up to, you're still taking an animal's life just like a long-range hunter is and like both ways, the animal still doesn't know your there. And thats the point in bringing home food for the table. And I've seen people MISS deer at ONLY 50 yards. It all comes down to you and your equipment's ability, not some keyboard tough guys opinion. Do your research and know your stuff if you choose to long range hunt. the information is out there for sure. Good video guys and i agree with the 2000 fps AT IMPACT statement!
I have killed elk at 80 yards and many between 400-500 yards in Idaho.
The difference is terrain. Where I hunt in Idaho it is so thick and rough most shots are across to the other side!
I shoot hundreds of rounds at steel before the hunt at ranges between 300-1200 yards, and I KNOW what my rifle/bullet combo is capable of. For me 600 yards is a chip shot.
The days of shooting 3 rounds per year just to check zero before the hunt are long gone!
Long range TARGET shooting at paper and steel plates, no problem!
Living animals at the same long distances, problems more than likely!
I’m in full agreement with Ron that the time of flight matters and shots at up to 300yds are okay but past that, maybe not so much…
Instead of trying to get bullet performance for crazy long distances, wouldn’t it be neat if we could get better “performance” from the hunter? Instead of asking for maximum performance from the rifle/rig, what if we demanded that the hunter be able to actually “stalk” within 100-200yds? Geez, that’s having the same stalking skills as your grandfather and these days, lots of guys would rather buy a new magic rifle, ammo, and Hubble telescope than practice their old-school stalking skills!
Gentlemen, great discussion about LR hunting vs ethical distances.
This is the perfect video for a question that I've got for you
Elmer Keith, Townsend Whelen, and probably more that I never heard of, had cartridges named after them.
What would be the Spomer cartridge? Do a video and tell us how you would want your perfect cartridge to be designed. And for fun, you can have any one manufacturer build you a rifle chambered in the Spomer cartridge. What would the rifle be?
I've already named my ideal cartridge. A long range zinger called 7.4mm FMJ
Freedom
Merica
Justice
Guaranteed to hold velocity of 1776fps at 1,000 yards
I'm thinking it would need a parent case of something like a 416 Rigby.
The rifle to send FMJ?
Remington 40X target action with a 5R barrel and Timney or Trigger Tech single stage curved face trigger. Drop it into a McMillan tactical stock with M5 bottom metal and crown it with the Gold Ring 5-25x56 FFP PR2-MIL reticle. 👌🏻
It's just know your limits, we always want to test test our capabilities, but knowing your limit as well as your gear to keep the animal from suffering is it
People need to know their limits and hunt and shoot accordingly
Thank you for this video. It is very educational and informative. I wholeheartedly concur with Mr. Benedikt regarding the need to practice.
I spoke with a score of outfitters in the course of preparing for a few Elk-hunting trips in Montana. (I am from Pennsylvania.) I made sure to ask each one about long-range shots, head shots vs heart shots, adequate caliber, and so on. All felt that 300-350 yards or less was the right distance. When I specifically asked them about shots at 500 yards or more, all responded with some version of "I should be able to get you closer than that." (Frankly, for the price of a guided Elk-hunt in Montana, I agree that they should, indeed, be able to get me closer than 500 yards.)
Yes, the Hornady ELD-X is a very good bullet.
No that bullet isn't - It Retains About 30% of its weigh! NOT A GOOD ELK HUNTING BULLET! ☹
@@ronlowney4700 I do not care for any hornady bullets for hunting.
Thank you for sharing this knowledge, really good, I love your show, Josef is very distinct. myself i use Barnes VOR-TX 8x57 IS. 160GR. TTSX for fellow dear, roe dear and wild bore in Sweden and the most distance i feel comfortable in is 150m. this cartridge is very effectiv. Ron i LOVE your dog she is beutiful and she seems verey affektionate and i would like to se her more in coming episodes. keep up your good work. 😊
Great conversation. My first Western hunt was eye opening. Wide opens spaces and rifles sighted in at 100 yards. Just could not figure out either the animal distance or hold. During that time I heard horror stories of local guys Elk hunting and shooting til they ran out of ammo. Fast forward to today and my personal range has increased thanks to range finders and practice shooting at distance. Even then, 600 would be a very long shot for me on game. I enjoy your topics. Thx
Great information Ron and Joseph. In the past i havent agreed much with Ron. But found this video a great source on the topic of long range hunting. 100% have to know your limits and that comes witb practice. In my opinion you should be able to have first round impacts on 1.5 moa targets out to the distance your are capable of shooting. I agree that modern equipment has changed the 400 yard shot making more people capable of that distance but there are also many who cant shoot 200 yards accurately. Having a spotter is only helpful if he can give back appropriate feedback. I have seen many spotters who are nor capable of the skill. Yes it is a skill set. I have a few buddies who i will trust 100% what they say and i know people who i will not listen to because they dont see things correctly. I had a hard lesson several years ago. Took a shot on a buck that i made but with the wrong bullet. It was probablh past the distance i should have been shooting, especially without a spotter. I did do my due diligence in tracking the deer without success. Still bothers me to this day. I put in the work to know at what distance i shouldnt be pulling the trigger. I use a bullet that i know the limits of with a cartridge im capable of handling. Happy hunting gents! May your efforts provide meat for the table!
Excellent show, I will be sending a link to my SIL who is close to embarking on his first hunt, I'll be asking him what his maximum ethical range is. He does practice a fair bit so I am sure his ethical distance will grow with time. I'll be eagerly waiting for the follow up shows as you certainly left a lot to expand upon.
Ron, can you do a show that shows the difference between the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet and the Terminal Ascent bullet? Federal makes both.
great video. 100% agree. These really long range guys also seem to think these animals are steel targets and cant take a step or two in the time it takes them to press the trigger and the bullet to arrive at extreme ranges. they can move out of the kill zone in that time
If you have the right equipment and practice at long range, I don't have a problem with long range hunting within reason.
Big difference between hunting and ELR target shooting. It’s easy to just pull a trigger when your target is a gong, not a living moving animal. 300m would be a far shot for me. I’ll rather walk and stalk to get closer.
My max distance is very dependent on many factors. If I have ideal conditions it can be three times that of non-ideal conditions. The things I consider are how much time I have to setup for the shot, the wind uncertainty, and if the animal is moving. If the animal is on the move I just don't shoot. I much rather have a bedded animal and lots of time at further range than to be at close range under time pressure. My main point is, max distance is highly variable. I like to cheat and get as close as I can as long as I can still have a lot of time to take a good shot.
Ron, same issue I see with the CZcams trends of promoting head shots. The reality is that most of us are not good enough shots to be taking long range shots. Head shots are a whole other issue, the target (brainstem) being the size of a golf ball and most folks wouldn't know where it is anatomically.
Not a fan of head shots myself, seen to many deer with a missing jaw.
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BAD. BAD. BAD. IS THERE ANY OTHER WAY TO SAY THIS??? I have hunted for sixty years. Taken everything on North America. Never had to shoot past 300 yards. It’s called hunting. Stalking skills.
I learned a long time ago (back in the 70's) that as a hunter, it is your responsibility to illiminate any undo suffering the animal you are hunting has to endure. Long range to me is unethical.
A hunt consists of stalking a particular buck year after year as it learned to beat your best efforts and figuring out where to intercept a animal that is on the move as you move quietly into position without him getting your scent ,it's being out with kids and friends , the trophy animals that are taken at extreme ranges are the future of our young hunters to provide them the joys i had growing up , we need to teach our children that going home empty handed is ok too , our fathers and grandfathers had 303s and 30-30s and seldom do i remember not having moose or deer in the freezer
Amen brothers and well said 👏
One thing that people don't understand is that hunting bullets have both minimum and maximum velocity impact speeds and stay slightly above both speeds and if you do your part.
You guys are hitting the mail square on the head. It does very from one individual to the next. You can’t expect someone that has only been shooting / hunting 2 or 3 years to be as accomplished / experienced and disciplined as someone who has been doing it for 40 years. Like everything else great in this life it takes discipline and effort to achieve, something I am afraid to admit most are not willing to put out, Thanks guys for the honesty!
Another thing to consider though is most folks who have been hunting for 40 years have merely repeated their first year 39 times.
Very interesting topic and one that will always be debated. My advice for long range is to "use enough gun" and practice a lot. That includes shooting from various positions using improvised rests. And I tend to concur with these gentlemen that 600 yards is a reasonable maximum range for people that are willing to put in time to develop their skills but don't go shooting every weekend.
Why not under 200 if your really hunting
Because not everyone’s hunting situation is the same.
Most important video you've ever done, Ron. The long range hunting trend/epidemic is a net negative for the hunting world.
You both listed several reasons why I don’t watch Best of the West or buy the products listed as their sponsors. In my mind this 600, 700 yard plus shooting is all about ego. It doesn’t seem to be about the animal or relishing a great hunting experience that when reflected upon still produces an excitement as if I was still there. In my 50+ years of hunting I’ve had a number of stalking hunts where I spotted a game animal 2-3 or miles away and got within 100yds or less and didn’t pull the trigger either because the game was not of legal size or simply because I wanted to see how close I could get just for the fun of it.
Good to you both for bringing this up and willing to address it. The hunting experience is so much more than pulling a trigger.
Good stuff guys. For me, hunting is about the hunt. Me and the animal. My absolute thrill is that I have stalked within 100yds to take my shot. Ask any bow hunter who kills at 30yds. For me, it’s about my skill and commitment to get in close for the kill shot. No farther than 400yds.
I once shot at a bedded doe pronghorn at 550 yards, with my T/C Encore in 7mm mag. A very small target. I shot just high over her. She ran in a ditch that wound up closer to me at 416 yards. I didn’t miss that time. Both shots we with a good bipod and stable sitting position. That is my longest ever shot with most under 200 yards. I really think that 300 should be pretty much the longest shot.
I am not a long range hunter but I still love all your videos. I still want to come out some spring to help you mend your fences. I have a 44 Mag Blackhawk with Buffalo Bore 300gr hardcast in case anything mean shows up.
The most truth ever spoken. Thank you guys!
And that's why Ron comes in second.
It's all about you as the shooter and if you know your gun. If you don't have a dope card and a range finder, don't shoot faryejr than 300 yards, in my honest opinion. Additionally, if you don't shoot in real life scenarios I e from a ranked position, from below across a canyon you are limiting you readiness.
Also ballistically confident also critical!
How do you stabilize the but end of the gun when using trigger sticks.
Prior to taking a hunter out into the field we used to have them shoot one round, from a bench. A 4 inch target at 200 yds and a 10 inch target at 500 yds. Cold bore, one shot. Take your time, fire when ever you feel good. Closer is better for almost everyone. There were exceptions. And as y'all noted the load, factory vs handloads showed some variance. But handloaders probably shot more often than folks who used factory ammo. Every now and then a fine rifleman took to the field with us. Impressive and some quite memorable.
Max range should depend on wind as well. If it is dead calm it is a lot easier than if there is a 15 mph cross wind. Even harder would be a head wind. A slight wind angle change will go from a left hold to a right hold. Have to pay attention to if the angle changes slightly.
Solid
Shooting from field positions is very important. Last year I sighted my gun in from a bipod and confirmed my drops out to 500 yards from a bipod. Then i took a 300 yard shot at a deer resting my gun on the windowsill of a blind and shot right under him. I thought what the hell, so i set up a target at a 100 yards and i was 3 inches low which out me 9" low at 300. Put the bipod on and i was back to shooting bulls.
You have to take the mindset outside of North America with it's wide open and flat spaces. In craggy, mountainous terrain, ranges get much further and the people subsistence hunting out there are doing so with old rifles and using very old tech, often old Russian ammo. Many of the shots the Afghan hunters take appears to make most people around here squeamish. Their targets of choice are mountain goats and sheep which live on some stupidly steep terrain and it's not uncommon for them to have to shoot from ridge to ridge across a massively wide divide. They also aren't necessarily aiming for the heart/lungs but primarily trying to hit and break bones in order to have the animal fall down the cliff face where it can be collected at the bottom. Some will even purposely do head shots because even if it's a wounding shot, the impact to the head often concusses the animal which causes it to drop to its death.
I also find it interesting about the ethics of the whole thing. The Hague Treaties requires the absolute most ethical engagements by a soldier against another human being in order for it not to be a war crime. You have people training and expected to make lethal shots at another human being out to 500 yards with iron sights with a 14.5" barrel. A shot against another human being where the International Standards require the most humane of engagements to prevent undue suffering to another human being, which is considered unethical all day, every day, when taken against non-humans. Think about that for a minute. What's considered ethical to do to another human being is considered unethical to do to any other living creature. You'll have people take basically modern hunting rifles and shoot other people out to and at times over 800 yards easily and it's considered ethical. They'll even aim for the head which is also considered unethical to do to an animal.
Everything considered unethical to do to animals while hunting are exactly what you want to do when hunting people apparently.
I say hunt at the ranges you are comfortable with and have practiced. Using capable cartridges, 6.5 PRC is my go to. As a varmint hunter i shoot small critters at 4 500 yrds + makes it good practice hitting larger critters at range.
Thanks again for this before hunting season. I have a perfect hunting record of 52 and 0. 52 hunts 0 deer. 😅
Oh, and 1 bullet that whizzed by me. 😮
4 or 5 in the brush that I wouldn't take cause of a .308 and not a 45-70. Now I have a 6.5 Grendel or .357 Henry to choose from as I'm not lugging a 20 lb 6.5 Creedmoor thru the woods. My .308 now resides with my great nephew, who rocked a 4 point buck his first hunt with it. He can clang a 7" plate at 100 yards since his first shot with it, so it was never the gun. We wasted two boxes of ammo at the range trying to sight his dad's. 308 in only to have the range safety officer to tell us the scope had pieces rattling around in it. My ex B-52 ears couldn't hear it, but a new Vortex scope cured that. So, like our host said, don't just take it out and run 3 rounds thru it. Put some ammo thru it in many positions as well, Jake can do it at 100 yards after jumping Jack's off hand at 10. Proud Uncle! One gun handed down and put to good use!
My bil is of the means to own fine custom rifles that you have to prove you can shoot when you actually go to pick them up. He also has a lot of experience, and if he has a good shot at 500 plus yards, I'm sure he'll do fine. Jmo
I feel comfortable shooting deer at 500 max with no wind,, a windy day I wouldn’t shoot more than 300 .
Reading animal body language, reading wind and knowing your rifle load is just as much a part of hunting as is reading sign and stalking, or whatever you want to call hunting. Thats what separates pros from everyone else in any aspect of life. You put in the effort to develop the skill and ability to do a task. The limits are self imposed based on those skills and it will vary for everyone.
Like they said, it is important to know the operating velocity range of the bullets used, but there are quite a lot of bullets designed to open well below 2000fps. This is especially important for intermediate cartridges like 30-30, 35 Rem, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39, etc. One of the side-benefits of the extreme long range hunting bullet development is that there are a lot of bullets that can function over a large velocity range, often still opening as low as 1300 fps.
Sniping isn't hunting.
Shoot within your abilities. I learned that from a young age when I botched a shot on a whitetail doe. Had to walk up and put it down and it still sits with me today. Now I put at least 100 rounds downrange for every shot I put in the field.
I think it depends on where you hunt. When I was stationed in California, Texas, Kansas, and Missouri you could hunt as far as you could see. In some cases, you could see a mile or more. Now that I'm back on the East Coast in some of the woods you are good to see 100 yards.
Longest shot i have ever taken on an animal so far was 65 yards on a black bear with a 270 shooting 156gr sako hammerheads. 300yrds is a far shot where i hunt. Love the video guys.
Fair chase is a weird topic.......fair would be bare hands........30-06 at 300 yards is ethical......30 yards with a bow is ethical.......3 yards with a spear is ethical.............I don't really care about fair.........ethical is the key
Yeah that’s a crazy idea when you’re trying to kill something
🤯 Don't Care About Being Fair? Is it Fair to the Game Animals or Your Fellow Hunters to Be Wounding Our Wildlife, Just Because Your Unwillingness To Get Close Enough to Make a Clean Kill? Would it Be Fair, If I Just Started Shooting People Like You Then? 😂 We Have Laws For a Reason, But It Sounds Like You Aren't Going to Follow Them, Regardless? ☹
Longest shot I know I hit steel was 800 yards with a 223, with reasonable confidence on steel at 1050 yards. Using my 308 hunting rifle, I am 100% confident to 200 yards, with reasonable confidence to 300 yards. No way am I shooting beyond 300 on an animal. I watched a hunting buddy shoot 6 times with a 30-06 at a deer he claimed was 500 yards (I never saw it) and all were misses. He is a perfect example of what not to do.
The CZcams hunters show their good hits on video. They probably don’t show their wounded/maimed animals limping away into the woods. A lot of variables at long range. Long range to me is over 500 yards. I have shot and practiced with my hunting rifles on paper out to 500 yards. That’s with a good rest. I have never killed a deer or any other big game animal much over 400 yards. I would never shoot at an animal (unless it’s a coyote) past 500 yards. You need a quality range finder and must know the trajectory of your bullet. Oh, and a good rest too…
😂 You Won't Need a Range Finder if You Were Shooting at Ethical Hunting Distances, Now Would You? But, Of Course, That Wouldn't Make Ron and Joseph Here Any Money - If They Couldn't Get Paid to Promote Such Products, Would It? 🤔
@@ronlowney4700it’s ok we get it, your a terrible shot. Maybe instead of watching CZcams you should go out and practice and maybe someday you can make it past the 25yard mark.
😃 My Trophy Room Says Otherwise! 🏆🦌 Also, Though I Don't Shoot Trap, Both My Uncle and Cousin Were Also State Champions! You Don't Need to Worry About My "Athletic Abilities" (🏃♂️) or "Smarts" (👨🎓), But Your Common (Good) Sense! 👨🏫
400 yards is my max with the 7mm08 that I shoot
If you could fill your freezer from a great distance, great, though I have been around shooters for a long time, and they tend to snapshot their best performances and forget their screwups. So I am betting on a lot of wounding and low recoveries. However, there are well trained shooters who can shoot at great distances, though they may not be experts at following blood trails and so forth. Also, the long range bullets tend not to be effective at all distances, destroying meat at close ranges and punching holes at long range. Some gun writers don't make it super clear when they are talking about how great these bullets are that they aren't game bullets. Thank goodness Ron is up front.
Whatever one wants to say, this is shooting not hunting. The sport has long distinguished between different sports like stalking, shooting, or hunting. If you took a deer at 600 yards that a Wensel beat at 16 yards, you aren't a hunter, whatever else you may be.
My rule of thumb is the one second rule., how far can that round go in one second as a general rule. Great Show Ron.
I shoot and hunt often at long range. You need to be proficient at ranges 200 to 400 yrd longer or even longer. If there is one question and your are not 100% sure you will make the shot then you don't take it. You pretty much need a brake or suppressor as you need to be able to spot your shots. There is so much more that goes into it. You should be shooting often and not just a box per year. You should also be loading your own ammo