Kislev's Best Anti-Ogre Doomstack
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- čas přidán 11. 05. 2022
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"Tzarina! The ogres are outside our door!"
"RELEASE THE PALLAS CATS"
KITTY!
Hakuna Matata!
I'd love to see more situational doomstacks.
This one here sounds fun against rites of primeval glory, as long as it isn't pure carnosaur spam.
It'll probably be costeffective against carnosaurs as well... Well, 2 of these, because carnosaurs are way more expensive :D
I think this might stand a chance against carnosaurs due animation and derpiness of dinos. These can gang up on a single dino, kill it and go to the next. Probably you would loose some leopards, but regardles its possible to win. Sure if a life slann is healing thats a different story, but the AI tends to not do that.
@@Debilinside arent the carnosaurs animations good since they evade more missiles thanks to jumping arround?
@@pimentinha1121 yeah but not against Single Entity Units
And as legend said, size works in their favor, there can be multiple leopards hitting a single carnosaur at the same time, whereas the opposite shouldn't happen if you stay in a blob
I like this situational doomstack idea. I’ve been waging war against the Empire as Kislev for giggles, and Tzar Guard are remarkably effective against Empire infantry. Nice way to find use for bits of the roster that wouldn’t normally get action.
Ice guard probably still better against empire
@@bingchillingsimp5811
Not really. Magic damage isn't needed against mortal factions all that much, and tzar guard would rip Empire infantry to shreds.
@@bingchillingsimp5811 Like Bearistotle said, my Ice Guard are better used against Chaos up in the north. Besides, there’s something nostalgic to me about watching blocks of Greatswords and Handgunners maneuvering around blocks of Tzar Guard and Streltsi. Almost napoleonic.
@@EJFreelancer Are you implying that the AI actually 'maneuvers' those troops?
People should submit situational doomstacks more often! They are fun and they are actually a cool idea that Sometimes the best solution to a problem is the least expected one
One Snow Leopard got stuck behind the entire battle, lol.
SNOW LEOPARD DOOMSTACK" We weren't even using our full strength "
I thought of doing something like this but I haven't finished the DoC Campaign yet. Episode 17, lol. What ya think?
10:49 added effect area
I ran this stack in the entire campaign on legendary, it worked just fine against pretty much everything, sure magic carried hard most of the time, but it was very enjoyable
How do they perform against chaos? Especially slaanesh and Khorn?
Did you use Red Line skills? Which leaders have them?
@@otelloofvenice5006 I went up against 4 full Khorne stacks with 1 kitty stack, blobbed and used magic, they did extremely well and won without casualties.
Thing is, kitties disrupt enemy formations a lot, they aren't infantry killing machines but will knock back a lot and prevent themselves from taking damage, you have to blob because their individual mass is pitiful and will get stuck in just about any unit
@@dahakaprod6519 That was on Legendary?
For me those kittens always die quick, but I guess a doom stack is viable
@@saff1kill You need to blob up hard, spread out they die super quickly
I'm on turn 250 as Kislev, (don't mind me, I'm taking my time sandboxing) and learned these cats are not to be forgotten. I always pushed them aside, but man... they are so good. Idk about a full stack of them, but maybe 4. They earned my respect.
okay, more like 6.
Tzarina Katarin has a unique skill that gives stalk and +10% speed to snow leopards. It's not much, but you can play a bit more ambushy at the beginning of the battle and have better odds if one of the cats gets beaten up and it needs to run away. I tried this doomstack in the past and the real pain is, when blobbing up, single cats get isolated from the rest and get attacked from all sides
Another kitty doomstack. Settra does approve
Even when fighting with 19 units (the third from the right is "running", but got stuck in the terrain), Snow Leopards mince their way through Ogres
My answer to the Disciples of the Maw is ride the first portal down to their start pos and SUFFOCATE THAT FUCKER IN THE CRIB BEFORE HE GETS A CHANCE! It's between him and the DP, and to be honest, better to hold your ass than your flank you have three factions they need to chew through.
Whole Empire+Elves can't defeat neither Ogres nor Mannfred in any of my campaigns so far. I had to deal with them manually each time.
@@Hadesniisama Yeah it's due to the way the AI works making them 'Minor' factions which ramps their aggression down hard, and ramps up Skrags. So get down there and kill him before he has a chance to even get out of his starting zone. Your sanity will thank you.
@@HavenKhaos with mode "great empires are back" which negates minor factions debuffs - con Carstein are literally f0ck everything near them each time, same as Eshin clan. All kislevites are eliminated in 40 turns and I cant now even reach their lands, playing boris somewhere in zharr deserts with other cool mod, which relocate u in start at random spot))
Hi legend, crystal sanctuary overcast is an AOE not single unit so it's great for blob fights like this
Yup, was about to mention that as well. Sounds pretty strong ngl, tho the miscast possibility can hurt. Gamble time
I enjoy the idea of focused/situational doomstacks , give purpose for such units.
Good video sir.
On top of everything else one of them got stuck on the way there and didn't even make it into combat! Very strong indeed
Glorious CatStack!
It will also work really well against Bretonnia when they get added in, and they have the advantage of being right behind Skrag. I'd say they could do well against vampires too because their infantry isn't that much of a concern usually.
But the thing is that this doomstack is insanely fast, it can outrun slaanesh cavalry and pretty much any skirmishing cav you can face. Even if they don't do well against infantry, you could very well deal with all the large units first and then deal with them, use some magic and inflict the army losses
I see them as particularly good for killing artillery and war machines as well
Great idea for new types of videos - feels so much fresher then building a generic doomstack.
Thanks for the vid, I had been curious about leopards but have not been playing 3 so have not tested anything myself.
I would have never thought the snow leopard would be useful in any situation at all, interesting video
Had to try it out before leaving to work 10 minutes ago worked like a treat
Thanks for the video
I think that the Snow Leopards really should have been a multi-entity unit with roughly the same number of models as sabretusk packs.
That Stonehorn got decimated
Could be a little better if built with Kostaltyn for the frenzy and could utilize his abilities
great video .. thank your for this video .
Ogres, my lord!...*intense purring noises*
Crystal Sanctuary lists an effect range, meaning it's an aoe spell. The downside to it is that your units can't move for the duration. Also one of the snow leopards got stuck on a building and didn't participate in the battle at all (not that it mattered here).
this type of content is something that you may want to expand. You can even dig up wh2 and try to do a campaign this way. Short 1 stream campaign just fighting mainly a particular race (e.g : high elves against lizardman only) and try various unit combination to find the best
Anti-factional stacks sound fun. I definitely agree that their small size lets them overlap attacks, these things are a damn blender when they're stacked up like that. I'm curious if being so stacked up messes with the AI's ability to fight back against them, or if their damage output/attack speed is so high that things die or get stunlocked and just can't hit back frequently. I remember the first Skarbrand one-man doomstack video where he struggled to actually attempt attacking anything while surrounded, and I've had similar problems with N'Kari and Skarbrand in my own campaigns.
Thanks!
I found snow leopards surprisingly useful in a mixed army too. My first game with Katarin was obviously a lot of ice guard, but I kept a few snow leopards because they could shred single entities.
I think this doomstack can be good also against lizardmen but with carefully management, against small units use magic against large use leopards.
I guess the ogres had a bit of CATastrophic experience.
overcast frost tomb is AOE 60% ward save is extremely good for blob and kislev gets tons of miscast reduction with the snowflake pendant.
Heart of winter is also basically tailormade to counter monstrous infantry blobs but not much else.
I'd argue frost magic is better to counter ogres even if the first tier of magic is effectively useless (aside maybe sleet of ice vs mourns/stonehorns).
Ice sheet is pretty much ineffectual vs. stonehorn though.
Stacking frostbite, ice sheet and even heart of winter if you've got the invocation up might reduce their base speed to almost nothing but has no effect on their charge speed and for some reason Stonehorn start charging from a ludicrous distance away, as well as having a really high charge speed. (Around 130)
It's really a very broken interaction that makes Kislev tar pit tactics completely worthless vs. stonehorn.
"And they all did good." Meanwhile one of the cats stuck in a tree and unable to climb down for whole battle.
I guess during ogre campaign advisor will spam ... "snow leopards my lord..."
Overcasted crystal sanctuary gives you an AOE and Katarin can give Leopards some minor specific buffs (10% extra speed and stalk), so she would be a bit better as a commander.
Katarin works best as an Ice Guard doomstack commander, it's more efficient than to give her a snow leopard doomstack. I think it's one of the great strength of this too, the fact that any lord can command it and it will still perform as it should
But do you want to User your main legendary Lord use an army designded to fight one faction?
Probably Not.
You are both right, but I was just pointing aou that there is a lord with specific buffs. Nothing stops you from using her in suboptimal way, even if all you get is some speed and stalk for those 3 seconds when you are not fighting
stalking single entity speed stack sounds like a fun thing to mess with, tho.
Early to mid game snow leopards are a really good budget option to deal with large, especially if playing the Boris campaign where the ogre kingdoms can become a problem relatively early.
It looked like the Leopards stunlocked the Ogres.
Oh so start of the vid and I think You forgot about something Legend. Those units are fast. They should not go to a blob with the whole army.
Small size with nice ststs and damage and speed, they should seperate enemies and kill every ogre unit one by one in the matter of seconds.
At least that is how I would use it and how it seems to work against ogres.
Still they were amazing even in this situation, so that is really impresive!
Edit.
What I mean is that Legend should probably not blob AGAINST thr whole OGRE army. My wording is not the clrearest i admit xd. Of course he should blob leopards, but in a field battle in my oppinion they should stay more mobile so for example all 20 of his units attack 1-3 units on enemy flank and when the rest of the ogres try to blob against him he could run and seak another opportunjty. This way I think he could beat even 3 or 4 full ogre stacks
"Large" units fight better when blobbed, as it is harder to get surrounded that way. You notice it when a unit gets isolated, it gets smashed, as it is hit in the flanks and from behind all at the same time. If you charge in all the time you will get in lots of those situations where 1 or 2 get stuck or separated. You could try it on a field map and try and get them separated, however it probably isn't worth the effort, except disaster situations ofc.
@@justjelmer6654 for sure, i think he should blob up and swarm, just that maybe he should have tried to do it in a more mobile way if this makes sence?
It would have been easier in a land battle for sure.
So you take those 20 fast SE and attack just one flank with them. They are so fast that i think this army would be able to beat even 3 kr sth armies of ogres iy you do this kind of kighting. 1-3 units of ogres at a time all attacked with all 20 of yours
They have too small a mass to separate from each other and they do not do that much damage. If a fight goes bad for one of them (a hero joins the fight, they pile on you, etc), it's dead. Plus, you're not going to benefit from healing AND from leadership boosts if they spread.
They seem to shred ogres, but it's the damage of 17 combined that does that. One against a unit of Ogre Bulls mean about 4-5 of the ogres can hit it at the same time, which means it WILL take more damage than in this video.
In Legend's fight, he came out at max health because he healed 3 (?) times. Plus, I even saw some of his units have their morale dip at half. If you give them all the debuffs associated with being isolated (outnumbered, stronger enemy nearby, etc), they're gonna break and run all over the place.
All in all, I'm convinced splitting is the wrong way to go!
@@KitchouaTembo i got missunderstood, probably i have worded it badly. For sure you do not want to seperate them i am aware of that. What I meant is that they probably could use more of their mobility in a field battle (yea now that i think about it it was probably hard to do is siege) so they can attack all juat 1 to max 3 ogre units at a time. Of course in a blob, but not stay to long and wait for other ogres to attack them.
This way I think this army could take probably even 3 or maybe 4 full stacks of ogres, because they can kill those 1-3 units Ina matter of seconds (especially with charge bonus) and than ran away before there are to maybe ogres around them.
That is what I had in mind.
But to see them do so well even without using any of their mobility is really impressive!
The point was to be as mindless as possible. Blobbing was the most mindless he could get
The cat hungers MORE then ogre's, my Lord.
Crystal sanctuary does apply area effect on overcast.
TIL bonus to --- adds to melee attack as well vs said unit
i wonder if this doomstack would do well against the lizards. it certainly looks like it would smash the dinos and they are the biggest concern with dealing with the lizards usually, but they might not get too good against the infantry, so unless it's the rite of primeval glory army they might get bogged down. on the other hand, they are fast and just throwing a good tempest witch could do the trick.
also against bretonnia, with cav being the main problem (are the cats faster than knights?) but also brets sometimes do recruit archer spams so that would go well too. louen would prob be able to kill a leopard in two hits, but that's just louen for you.
can't wait for the immortal empires to test all this new armies against the old enemies and vice versa.
Dont forget that carnasaur is anti large too.
I remember this during a stream from a new tw3 youtuber that mercy recommended since his stream was getting finished
This stack might also come in handy against some Beastmen and Lizardmen armies, and in particular Rakarth if his starting position doesn't change.
You can get a little more out of them using them with the Tzarina, she has a little thing that adds stalk to the cats as well. I THINK that is it but I could be wrong, I haven't played KISLEV in a while. But yeah even if I don't doom stack I keep a few with her to be well...a arty hunter IF I fight something that has arty, otherwise I just kinda use them to pick off units that are alone. The things are stupid fast and if an enemy lord is trying to book it...I let the cats chase and finish the guy off for me as I finish a fight.
I love using 4-6 snow leopards in sieges when I have the ability that gives them stalk and a few banners that boost speed. They're great at capping points, especially in walled sieges.
snow leopard can has climb ladders
I used just katarina and snow leopards. they all can have stalk then. very powerful
I like it. I hated dealing with Skrag in my kislev campaign.
Mems with internet Cats WORKS!
Holy internet-Cats! they beat Ogres.
Kislev has not only Bears ,it has cats. No one stand agianst Kislev.
So I guess if you must develop that tactics, how about 3 patriarch and all stack with elemental bears!
or 3 patriarch and all stack with bear cavalery , it must beat demons and all other factions.
Snow Leopards are a fun niche pick. I've used a pair of them to skirt Norscan mammoths that would've wrecked my ice guard frontline.
That 1 poor Snow Leopard who got stuck on a tree or something with 0 kills. F
There is a joke in here somewhere about the firebelly (presumably the ogre equivalent of a fireman) being too busy dying to get a cat out of a tree...
Snow leopards are an endangered species
Snow Leopards " I am the danger,"
thx for tip
quesiton:
1 is it still viable in current version of base game?
2 more of doomstack plz
GG. That was neat.
Heart of winter might do well in this snowleopard doom stack. Your army is small (area wise), so the enemy will make a big blob around you.
I'm surprised DameOffensive didn't play with this yet
Heart of ice would be pretty good, it does not damage your own troops while it's fairly effective against low entity units (like ogres), it's not too great against single entities, I use it in my patriarch spam as enemies tend to blob up around them really nicely
Thats exactly what I was thinking. I think most people don't realize the Ice: Heart of Winter spell doesnt do damage to friendlies because its not in the tooltip, but it is for the Tempest: Hawks of Miska. This an an anti large stack, but throw the leopards into a bunch of infantry when you face them, let them bunch up, and Heart of Winter will absolutely decimate the blob, its a lot better then Hawks of Miska for that, so an Ice Witch lord would also let this stack handle infantry at least somewhat.
@@Brandon_Reed. I am not 100% sure, but I think Blizzard from Lore of Tempest also does not damage your own (and again, it is not in a tooltip). There is a way to figure it out (without blasting your own troops that is ;) ), select spell and hover targeting your own troops and see, if they are highlighted when they are in effect area, if they aren't the spell probably does not do friendly fire.
Also the bit of weird thing about heart of ice, it is not a damage spell like let's say flame storm, where the storm itself does damage, instead, it is stationary AoE debuff zone and one of the effects is damage (I have not tested it, but I would assume 2 simultaneous casts will apply only damage from 1, however, if you cast 1, wait for it to hit stage 2, then second cast should do its full effect)
You can actually use CTRL+A to select all units
That's one nice kitty
I like the idea of specialized doomstacks. A doom stack that only works against certain types of races. In this case the large bulky ogres.
“ogres my lord!”;
“send my cats to deal with them”;
Interesting, very interesting.
Big Floppas on the hunt
as katarina, you can grab 2 of these, give them stalk, blow hole in a settlement wall and take settlement with 0 casualties.
When all else fails just send Mr. Mittens to secure the borders.
low key, having the armored kossar (spears) from the prologue feel like they should be in main campaign, also tsarina katarin has buffs for snow leopards
RELEASE. THE KITTIES.
I'm still on my legendary kostaltyn Patriach stack, works amazing vs everything
They're a riot, especially with the volume up and they're screeching their lines!
@@planomathandscience the stacking 6 meele defense with 20% wardsafe Perma healing and Perma 40+ meele attack is so good (and ofc you can get them items as well)
anti leopard stack - gnoblar trappers spam.
Bady needs a neck bite charge animation for this Cats
Love me some Legend! Ogres rule and so do my favorites ,not yet in the game, Chaos Dwarves who are much more fun than their stumpy cousins what with Demonic artillery, Black Orc inventers with fire magic and Gnobler meat shields!
Damn they did mulch through em even without the red line buff
Wow, I remember the ogres being a pain in the *** during my previous campaign's late game, now I can't wait to throw Kostaltyn and a bunch of frenzied cats at them
Way more effective than I assumed. Still feel that war bears would be much better, but vastly more expensive
Ist the crystal cloak an area spell? Because In this case it will be really handful in situations when you are in a blob of ogres or any other big type of units.
+ I’m sure Kislev has some items to reduce enemy weapons strength, so it would be nice to have one of this item.
They should balance more of this into the game - faction specific doomstacks that perform amazingly well against only 1 faction.
Technically gnoblars should counter the leopards but they get blown away by one or two casts of the basic winter spell too.
I use this doom stack against all...cheap, small, fast and kislev heals are goooood. Couple with ice magic aoe against infantry
I would say having one of them against norca is not a bad idea, because they can handle the Norsca Heroes and General pretty well, they bounce them around like balls and they can't really hit back, and with a bit of micromanagment you can even hurt a or kill a Mammoth with one of them ^^
"RELEASE THE KITTIES!!!"
I wonder if it'd be better with Katarin i remeber she gives them stalk for sure. But may be something else
needs 1 more patriach for vigour / melee buff and it should be even more impressive, really nice anti ogre stack
Makes me want to play another kislev campaign eh I will Waite for mortal empire
I found them pretty good with Katarin till at least mid to early late game , on very hard very hard.
Are you going to stream medieval 2 today?
Here kitty kitty
Impressive how the stonehiorn didn't bother them at all
Next proposed doomstack: Lions, Mountain Lions, Mavericks, etc.
Big Floppa doomstack interesting
the fact one of the snow leopards was stuck the whole battle was pissing me off haha, the third last leopard in the unit list
Low mass means these units are way more likely to behave jankily (mainly by jittering in place when stuck in melee instead of attacking), specially if the enemy has mass superiority. Didn't seem to matter though, them kitties got carried by theirs stats put in such a small (but Large) package.
By the way, they look much more like the lynxes with long tail rather than snow leopards.
Snow leopards like vargulves - have much faster attack animations, not like the big single entitie monsters. Not 4-6 sec, but a 2.4 seconds, that make them really counter against ogre units, which typically have 250-400 hp per model. If snow leopard would have about 380+ weapons strength, they can oneshot almost every ogre model and theoretically kill simple ogre unit (16 models) in a few seconds, about 3-8 seconds. U just need to line up snow leopards correctly, especially try to make a wall on wall fight in city like on video.
That's a perfect counter against ogre armies ;)
Poor ogres, having their ankles bitten by bad snow kitties!
Ja geil hab ich bock
It’s all ogre now.
Imo snow leopards are quite good against large units. Definitely situational but in a pack they're pretty good with their speed and anti large
Of course I just finished my Kislev campaign where I had to take out Ogres because they just always come in to ruin your day...great doomstack though!
Shrek B Gone