I think it was every bit as nasty. It just seems nicer because time has passed. People will probably be saying the same things about politics now in 20 plus years time.
@@oleggorky906 I think when people say [we’ll think the same in 20 years/it’s just nostalgia], it’s very trite. It doesn’t take into account the actually existing cultural and social realities of then vs now. It’s a thought-terminating cliché. Undoubtedly, an anger and baseness has arisen in public life which did not used to be there - or at least only existed on the peripheries. There have been previous periods in history where there was social unrest and division, ofc. But in the past you had the hegemonic influence of Christianity and culturally conservative values, which helped stymie the more visceral, destructive outgrowths of discontent. We don’t have that now. We live in a society with no coherent social fabric, without a powerful common value system (beyond the most basic small-l liberal stuff of freedom of speech, association and so on) and increasingly without hope or optimism. That is a most dangerous concoction of malaise, dysfunction, and discontents. Resultant of that is, yes, politics now is a lot nastier. We have to face up to that and deal with it and fix the root causes of societal breakdown. Simply hiding beyond bromides of “people will think the same about now in 20 years time” is not a serious response. They won’t. There won’t *be* a functional body politic/society to reminisce about in 20 years time. Sober up.
@@Harold2230 I read your recent novel and thought it a pretentious attempt at intellectualism that had me in stitches.The one using ‘thought-terminating cliches’ is you. Did you really have to churn out such a pretentious word stew for such a short response as I gave? Seriously!?!🤣🤣🤣 What were you trying to prove? All that you wrote amounts to floccinaucinihilipilification (see, I know a few big words too! 🤣👍 It’s hypothetical - otherwise prove the old ‘It’s a lot worse now than it was then nonsense.’ You can’t. There were those 50 years ago that thought things were so bad that they were planning a coup against Harold Wilson’s government, according to Sir Peter Wright. But life went on. I remember some nasty times under Thatcher’s government. People said the same kind of things: ‘It’s worse now than it was then,’ … Me, sober up? No, you lay off the hard stuff. It doesn’t agree with you. Now kindly buzz off, there’s a good chap.
@@oleggorky906I didn't mean to criticise you personally. More just what the attitude represents (complacent presentism). My apologies if I came across harshly. Now then. I have read "A Very British Coup" as well. You are referring to people complaining of malaise in the 70s? They were right! You must be the only person who thinks that era *wasn't* a time of malaise and decline ;) (that's not the total story ofc, but still). Now, I'm an Old Labour supporter, I don't agree w Thatcherites or Blairist prescriptions - but it's an empirical reality that things were not good at the time. So, your own argument defeats what you're trying to claim. Don't misunderstand me, I would take a Keynesian-Fordist mixed economy in decline any day of the week over a neoliberal society in decline. The point is when people say "things were better back then," they are more often than not correct. Because it's simply an observation that social ills have increased. 'They' (the righteous moaners) were correct in the 80s, they are correct now. Our societies don't just magically improve. On the contrary, because there was consciousness around how things had gotten a lot worse - and often to illustrate this people will refer to a period in the past, fair enough - a process of reform and change was begun. Consequently, society was once again stabilised, and social ills were alleviated. And so the capitalist cycle of crisis and expansion continues. Thus, in a very English sort of way, the moaner's role is critical. But what you're saying is the fallacy not dissimilar to what some contrarians say about the Government's response to the pandemic. "Oh, the Govt was so over the top in dealing with [insert crisis] because, in the end, Rome was still standing." Yes, but only *because* people were worried and took bold, decisive action. What you're asserting is a misapprehension based on getting the cause and effect backwards. We *should* be worried that society has materially and socially slid backwards - and like those who had to take matters in hand before us - we need to do the same now because it'll only get worse otherwise. You cannot just believe in a fallacy of inevitability. In other words, assume things will turn out alright because even though people were complaining once before, the ship always managed to right itself. That's silly. There's no 'givenness' that things will get better automatically, and the remembrance of the past is a powerful way to illuminate the social ills of the present. In sum, it's not nonsense - embrace 'things were better,' and realise how the notion is useful to understanding why society is buggered at the moment, and what can help fix it.
I’m a Thatcherite and had been stabbed in the back by so called Tory grandees November 1990 and two weeks later I actually met Tony Blair when I was in Melbourne Australia and could not be more charming even though I told him I was a Margaret Thatcher supporter I just thought what a class guy
Blair would have made mincemeat out of anything the Conservatives could put up these days.
Ha! Great sense of humour from Tony.
Unlike Clown Corbyn 🤡
0:23 Tony Blair doing a Jack Nicholson face 😆
When politics was less nasty. Miss those days.
I think it was every bit as nasty. It just seems nicer because time has passed.
People will probably be saying the same things about politics now in 20 plus years time.
Illegally invading Iraq and bumping off Dr David Kelly was pretty nasty...
@@oleggorky906 I think when people say [we’ll think the same in 20 years/it’s just nostalgia], it’s very trite. It doesn’t take into account the actually existing cultural and social realities of then vs now. It’s a thought-terminating cliché. Undoubtedly, an anger and baseness has arisen in public life which did not used to be there - or at least only existed on the peripheries.
There have been previous periods in history where there was social unrest and division, ofc. But in the past you had the hegemonic influence of Christianity and culturally conservative values, which helped stymie the more visceral, destructive outgrowths of discontent.
We don’t have that now. We live in a society with no coherent social fabric, without a powerful common value system (beyond the most basic small-l liberal stuff of freedom of speech, association and so on) and increasingly without hope or optimism.
That is a most dangerous concoction of malaise, dysfunction, and discontents. Resultant of that is, yes, politics now is a lot nastier. We have to face up to that and deal with it and fix the root causes of societal breakdown. Simply hiding beyond bromides of “people will think the same about now in 20 years time” is not a serious response. They won’t. There won’t *be* a functional body politic/society to reminisce about in 20 years time. Sober up.
@@Harold2230 I read your recent novel and thought it a pretentious attempt at intellectualism that had me in stitches.The one using ‘thought-terminating cliches’ is you. Did you really have to churn out such a pretentious word stew for such a short response as I gave? Seriously!?!🤣🤣🤣 What were you trying to prove?
All that you wrote amounts to floccinaucinihilipilification (see, I know a few big words too! 🤣👍 It’s hypothetical - otherwise prove the old ‘It’s a lot worse now than it was then nonsense.’ You can’t.
There were those 50 years ago that thought things were so bad that they were planning a coup against Harold Wilson’s government, according to Sir Peter Wright. But life went on. I remember some nasty times under Thatcher’s government. People said the same kind of things: ‘It’s worse now than it was then,’ …
Me, sober up? No, you lay off the hard stuff. It doesn’t agree with you. Now kindly buzz off, there’s a good chap.
@@oleggorky906I didn't mean to criticise you personally. More just what the attitude represents (complacent presentism). My apologies if I came across harshly.
Now then. I have read "A Very British Coup" as well. You are referring to people complaining of malaise in the 70s? They were right!
You must be the only person who thinks that era *wasn't* a time of malaise and decline ;) (that's not the total story ofc, but still). Now, I'm an Old Labour supporter, I don't agree w Thatcherites or Blairist prescriptions - but it's an empirical reality that things were not good at the time. So, your own argument defeats what you're trying to claim.
Don't misunderstand me, I would take a Keynesian-Fordist mixed economy in decline any day of the week over a neoliberal society in decline.
The point is when people say "things were better back then," they are more often than not correct. Because it's simply an observation that social ills have increased. 'They' (the righteous moaners) were correct in the 80s, they are correct now. Our societies don't just magically improve. On the contrary, because there was consciousness around how things had gotten a lot worse - and often to illustrate this people will refer to a period in the past, fair enough - a process of reform and change was begun. Consequently, society was once again stabilised, and social ills were alleviated. And so the capitalist cycle of crisis and expansion continues. Thus, in a very English sort of way, the moaner's role is critical.
But what you're saying is the fallacy not dissimilar to what some contrarians say about the Government's response to the pandemic. "Oh, the Govt was so over the top in dealing with [insert crisis] because, in the end, Rome was still standing." Yes, but only *because* people were worried and took bold, decisive action. What you're asserting is a misapprehension based on getting the cause and effect backwards. We *should* be worried that society has materially and socially slid backwards - and like those who had to take matters in hand before us - we need to do the same now because it'll only get worse otherwise.
You cannot just believe in a fallacy of inevitability. In other words, assume things will turn out alright because even though people were complaining once before, the ship always managed to right itself. That's silly. There's no 'givenness' that things will get better automatically, and the remembrance of the past is a powerful way to illuminate the social ills of the present.
In sum, it's not nonsense - embrace 'things were better,' and realise how the notion is useful to understanding why society is buggered at the moment, and what can help fix it.
Comedy at its best!! Brilliant timing!
Classic!
That’s classic
I’m a Thatcherite and had been stabbed in the back by so called Tory grandees November 1990 and two weeks later I actually met Tony Blair when I was in Melbourne Australia and could not be more charming even though I told him I was a Margaret Thatcher supporter I just thought what a class guy
Funny ❤